LONDON SURVIVORS HORROR STORY! LOCAL PDF v Laura, Mary & Lauren | True Crime Podcast 821

0:00I hate to say it and it really stays in my mouth. I don't like saying it. He just looked rather you know, intriguing. He was in his cowboy staff and he had a twinkling his eyes and he had that mischievous guy look, you know, rough, big going on. He just looked like fun. I wasn't even my height that I was going to be because I still grow in and that and I was just pinned under him and then when he stopped and went to sleep straight away, he kind of just I'd managed to like get him off me and I was all sticky with his sweat and everything and I remember just reaching for my uniform and grabbing it and then going into the bathroom and putting it on I'll barely ever went to school at 14 and I barely ever went to school at that point and that's the only place I need to go to so I just put my school uniform on top of my clothes like

1:02and then went out. Then your body stops you switches off like a son's turn lights been tough and I remember the folks and the forehand them. Well done darling. Oh yeah. What a night. What an experience. Just awful. So yeah, I remember convulsing. It's like electricity going through your body just like I just shutters. It shutters so much because your body is trying to survive. It's trying to have oxygen to live and there's nothing. So you kind of go through this moment where the body goes into like a shock and then it just stops. It just switches off and you use nothing you can do about it. There was another under the age of 16 year old on his sofa and he'd come on the sofa.

2:04I was laying down and he got on top of me with a sleeping bag over the top of him and I thought he was just cuddling me but he didn't. He took my clothes off and he started trying to have with me in front of this child that was looking very distraught and uncomfortable on the sofa and I just when I was laying there I just thought to myself he's he's not going to do that. He's not going to overstep that much. No way. So Jen and I and many of you have just watched this documentary on channel 4. Do you know this man? Absolutely heartbreaking and the survivors, three of them from the documentary are here today and it's really honored that they're coming on and these horrific things happened when they were

3:08teenagers by this monster called Martin butler is now convicted. So they're going to be telling the stories in detail for the first time after the documentary. Also Murray's got her book The Silver Fred. So the links for that and the links to support all of our guests will be in the description box below this video on you if you're watching it on YouTube. So Murray, we're going to start with you because you're what happened was six years before Lauren and Laura. Yes, that's right. 1988. Yeah, but could you just give us a bit of background? What was your life like growing up? I came from a Remkaftek background family so it was very you know you keep quite about certain things you know you just taught to you know be part of the community or the the faith that you have brought into. So it's very hard to when you go out into the wider world and you meet people how to actually when things go bad that you don't know what to say and that's kind of like I think everything grained from very young. Did you have strict Catholic parents?

4:12It was not only strict but yeah I did go to church twice a week for all of my infant and junior school. So yeah it's quite strict and confession every Tuesday as well I can remember confessing something like that. What have I done wrong in a week? Well there you go. That's religion for you unfortunately. Yeah I was a Roman Catholic race and I ended up in Alta Bois as well. I remember the confession all the hellmarries and half of us and all that as well. Exactly exactly. That's sometimes you as on people that will ask let's just play some free hellmarish sandwich because I think what you're saying right now isn't good. But were you a happy young person? Yeah I was quite as far as I can you know say that I was very happy as a child always quite. I saw myself back then as nothing could go wrong you know but life was perfect. Parents were always there family to my family there's just this and stuff. Always perfect. In my seat how I saw it growing up and then nothing really I could say that was going to make me feel I couldn't speak

5:16if I had to speak but I did when things went wrong I couldn't I couldn't speak I didn't know how to. I wasn't taught how to say bad stuff. What did your mum and dad do? Well my mum was a stay-at-home mum she was lovely I mean just the mum of the century. She really was and my dad he he was a cabinet maker to start with and then industry took over and so he went to work for the rest of his life basically so you got a golden hand shake when he retired from there which was really nice so he was always working hard I used to go play golf, we used to go and be as caddy, I used to remember taking the caddies down the go and go and get that ball, go and get that ball and he used to have little nicknames for us so that was quite sweet. And school what were you interested in? At school art oh my god art art art drawing painting art that's just my love I just felt at home and comfortable in an art room

6:16and I just I know it's just I could express stuff I just felt because my dad's very artistic being a cabinet mage he had that artistic flair I just inherited it from him I believe. Did you have a lot of mates at school? No I wasn't actually unfortunately years ago when I was young I was born left-handed so my mum changed me to my right because I think it's a society thing where they believed to be disabled and so it was quite a Victorian way of changing me over oh my god yeah how do you change from left to right? Well when I had it because if a left-handed child the right side brain works and and if you're right-handed child the left-hand side brain works so you have to the brain gets changed over so yeah I go see this old guy that is it's horrible yeah it's horrible like corporal punishment do you mean he's like punishment yeah he's so hard so every time he asked me to pick a pencil I'm all happy I gave him the

7:23pencil with my left hand and after a while grunting from his face he just smacked my hand one of his and it yeah I'm not handed now but I can wipe both hands yeah so he's met my hand and smacked my hand and smacked my hand until I literally had to sit on my hand to stop it from picking up the pencil it's so Victorian yeah that's how they did it back in the day for my Remacable Scull yeah it did it did traumatise me to the point actually I'm strange I'm right another novel book and I'm right in a part where I was being changed over from my left to my right and I got a little ganglion system up on back on my left hand and I think it's isn't the somatic memory in off my hand so I get a gang leader at the time yeah I've got a little ganglion system there come up and I think that's where I'm carrying through the memory I was bought it up I've tried that yet just bruised it made it worse I had left it but I've got a poetry book that I'm going to be putting out as well in the next month or so and in there I've got a poem called

8:28The Rogue P is my ganglion system. Oh god. It's a cruel, congratulations on all your rights. So that obviously taught you a young age that yeah that's my first traumatic memory and from that traumatic memory you end up with more traumatic stuff so going through school and now being right handed I went from the top of the class to the bottom of the class. Oh darling. Yeah it's hard it really is hard it makes me choke me a little bit sometimes so and I started right and not to slide down back to front I gathered I ended up with a list I had to have speech lessons because I couldn't talk properly because the brain has to change from you know the right hand the left hand to the right hand. There were the trauma of it. I've never heard this story before. Yeah yeah yeah and then that's the first sort of trauma so for all my school life because I was not bright as they call it I didn't have many friends because I was put into a special classroom was called the Hut. It wasn't on the main part of the school and I was infant when the infant school went up to

9:33junior. It's most up to junior one two three and four and where everyone would go but I went into the hut as one and two and it was where they put dances but I was called. Is this how you ended up in you know how Martin was able to take advantage of the situation because he was kind of like manipulating long and difficult to read. I was always vulnerable from that point and I think I developed sort of dyslexia but not the classic dyslexia you get with people because my brain was changed from using different hands but before I met him I was with someone I felt pregnant on the pill unfortunately got that happened because the pill wasn't 100% safe or 99% safe it was kind of like well 60% 70% if you got a good brand and I lost the baby. At 19%? Yeah just yeah I was 19 and I was five and a half months pregnant. Oh my god. No. But it was because it was quite hard.

10:34It was during the storms October 1987 storms and I was four and a half months pregnant at the time and my mum's neighbours fence fell down and I went to visit her that weekend and took a long time to get there traveling from Slao all the way to where mum and dad lived in South Isleip and we popped the fence up because my mum and dad had a house station, Gemmyshepa dog and the next one able was a very religious lady and didn't like big dogs actually didn't like her at all our dog Kelly at the time. So my sister's popped the fence up and then on the Sunday morning she come round to discuss her broken fence and I opened the door up because it was in bed and at that time we all decided that we've kind of left school we're not going to go to church anymore we're not going to have that religious intake you know we've been battered enough as they call it you know you bought up in that sort of style and then she turned around and she punched me in the stomach didn't we last house pregnant. Oh my god. Oh my god. Yeah and it split the percentile and I'm

11:41up and I'm afraid it's a lot of baby. Oh, it's devastating. Oh thing. God. Oh darling. It's terrible. You were so young. Yeah. Not some tissue. How old are you then when Martin came into your life? That was 19. So we soon off too. And then I met that was 19. I remember I'm going to go back. Do you move to the booth? I was 19. Yeah I met him but when I was 20. So I lost the baby in the November and I think I just turned 20 in the August actually. So I was 19. I was pregnant and 20 when I lost the baby. Yeah. How did you meet him? Well I couldn't go back to where I was staying because it was in a hotel and there was lots of

12:46mums and babies and pregnant women and I was really traumatized. So yeah I couldn't go back there. I just had the urge to pick up every single baby crying and that was awful. It's like it's like it's like a darkness that follows you when you lose a baby. You're craving and you never forget that baby. No. You've got five now haven't you? So my first was a little boy. Yeah. Right. Did you name him? Oh maybe. Oh darling. Give me your hug. I've got to say. It's a lot isn't it? You start to finish. You needed somewhat to stay. Yeah so I couldn't go back to the hotel so the social worker that come around and said what how do you feel? And I just thought that I want to pick up that crying baby. I even surprised myself.

13:50I just thought I just can't do this. So they found me a little flat at the end of Northwood with my fiance but things went from bad to worse. So you blame me for the loss. It wasn't good. It wasn't good. You got a lot of yeah fists in the face. I want to go punch him. Anyway so. You didn't feel safe living though, are you? So then I left and I ended up just traveling up North with a friend ended up in lowest off and just walked up the motorway. Got moved off the motorway by police because you're not meant to walk on the motorway. Ended up up there. But it was just so bleak because it was like January time. I think January time was more a blift just after Christmas of who's in the baby. And I had to go back obviously and then face what my life was.

14:55And when I got back I felt I'd been burglated. Oh my god it's going bad to worse. But no one had broken in. I've been used. So I don't know who it was. I can't blame who it was but there was nothing left. They couldn't take the fridge that couldn't take the sofa. They took the cut, everything. There was nothing left. Then I knew then that relationship was finished as well. So it was just no repair and nothing. So I knew he didn't want to live in the blue roofs. No I didn't. Why? I did. I don't know but he didn't want to live in the blue roofs. I don't know why. He knew I didn't. I'll just naive. Did you not need a reputation of it at the time? Nope. No. No. No. So I thought well in that way to get rid of him out of my life and I move forward and try and repair what I have left of my self, respect and stuff. I went down the blue roofs and I walked down there to look for empty flats.

15:58And when I found two I did no more. I got on the bus into Ryslet. Pond I said I found two that are empty. I want one. And she looked really, really surprised at me. And I thought yeah yeah I think it's how I get away from the relationship, everything and just finds some solitude and they offered me one because the other one was a house and that's how I ended up living there. And just for the viewers what was the reputation of the area and what was the blue roofs? It was, they put up pre-fabs I think in 1950s wasn't it? I think it after the war. So it was only meant to be up for 20 years or something like that. For I don't know if it's to do with... I don't see how I think it is. Yeah that's it. So there were like just tin roofs with pre-fab walls that are like so paper thin you can put your hand around. And then roofs were blue tin. Blue, yeah and they were... So when did you run? The blue. Yeah the blue room was the original room but when it rained you could hear it's like you're in a tin can. Yeah. When you catch spiders and throughout the window and it had one on the tin roof you're like yeah it's got boots on.

17:00You'd hear the thing that's a little army spider so that's why I call it army spiders. They're the big ones. I always call them army spiders because they remind me when I used to throw them out onto the tin roof. How they ran away and I just think yeah it's going the war that's why it's not going there. So that's yeah they just had a two bed flat and small little box room but they just because no one else wanted to live there and I didn't realise that. It was in the state though wasn't it where you got to say you got two roads you got hayland close and then full close and they connected with little alleyways all the way up all the way in between the blocks and somewhere houses and somewhere flats. So like the blocks of flats and then houses as well weren't there so the flats would have six you have a front or back on the top and then a join in front of back on the top and then the houses will be one whole side one whole side and the other one. We visited it before in the duct one. Yeah. Oh god yeah I went back. Yeah back actually I

18:01found all the letters that I had people send me so and I forgot the actual number of the house and everything with the flat I lived in and I looked and I went oh that's why you still live that's the number. As soon as you saw it you knew it. Yeah yeah. So it's quite hard going back because I had a fear of the area as I've never been back when I left after I left I never went back and I was there for oh my god. So 1988 I moved in there. In 1989. 90 I think it as I left because I was I met my first husband in 1981. Yeah go let's go back to your moving in. So how soon after you moved in did you meet Martin? It was quite a few months actually because I was a little bit afraid of going out living on my own. The door didn't look that great you know you had a few holes in the front door you know yeah it's awful and I just say to the council I'm like you know I've got home my front door people continue to try and put the hand in and get in and they said well you know

19:04we get someone around but they never did. Councils weren't really that good at making lone female safe. It was very difficult and I had to start from scratch from literally scratch so my friends would help me find furniture and carpets and stuff like that and I'd want going it was a friend and he said I've been working and they just chucked out their carpets so I went around to you it was like what they didn't want so I used to patch up and so I put the carpet in the flat I was in but it didn't look like patched I made it so good it looked like someone had come down laid it but it was in patches but when you got nothing you have to start somewhere you've got to make it work. You've got to make it work or why it's not working and as I was on my own I was going to see the whole neighborhood I could look out the front I couldn't out of the back I had a little old lady net downstairs she was great I looked after her a lot and then I just started one day thought I got for a wander around here tonight and I had a friend that lived at the end

20:05she moved in about a year beforehand she had a little girl. I've been enjoying the podcast since I went from Shopify when Ron and I were sitting on a business idea Pokemon cards Shopify made it easy to make it happen everything we needed to start selling was included and ready from day one. If you're worried about the complexities of how customers are going to pay Shopify simplifies it checkout helps more of them finish their purchase and when they come back their details are already saved one tap and they're done. Well babies in my life are not how much time to do any study more got blessed it is the apple of my eye but we'll Shopify manling set up and check out you have more time to focus on growing your business and the tools to do it and more time to take the key out to the park and the train station loves train station. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide from some of the world's biggest brands of small businesses getting started like Ron and I's Pokemon card business you just start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk forward slash Sean start your free trial at Shopify.co.uk forward slash

21:05Sean SHU that is Shopify.co.uk slash Sean to watch on youtube links in the description box below this video if I give you a support and a sponsor back to the podcast. But yeah she kept herself to herself so I don't think she really knew about how bad it was there well sort of stuff used to go on then I never knew. So when you first moved there then was it known as a bit of a rougher state? I don't know I don't remember it being known as it is a rougher state like it was. Yeah I found an article in the paper about the mold problem in the blue roofs. Oh really? Yeah because I don't know when we first started going down the blue roofs. Whether it was it known as a rougher state because we were young and we were kids it was fun riding our bikes up and down and going over to the swimming bars and that it was fun so I just wondered if it always had a... But there was always dealers. We were a bit oblivious to all of that. Yeah even when I was quite oblivious to what was going on I mean I remember the swimming pool

22:09near because I used to go there as a child with a school to learn to do swimming lessons in my junior school so I always knew the swimming pool. Yeah we all went there swimming bars. It was a lovely place to be. You could have received the blue roofs from when you had the coach pulled up you see so. Oh yeah we used to go swimming from up the mountain. Yeah yeah all the coaches would pull up and then you got a park just up the road while in the park and it was it was a nice area but so when did you meet Martin then? It's about a couple of member of it was it was a few months in and one I think about March each time it's quite cold and I went out I just one dropped down the alleyways and just have a look about you know and they might meet neighbors might meet friends might just set a little bit. I knew the neighbor downstairs the lady downstairs with family downstairs weren't hardly there. I met people some just two blocks down and I thought they seemed quite nice so I was just wandering around and I happened to come a little girl who was all by herself crying looking quite cold. That's how I met her I met Martin through her I put her back to my flat

23:14and gave a warm shed some art soap a bit of bread and then and he knew who's good it was. Yeah he he knew so I went and took a little note and stuck it on his door she told me where he lived put a note on his door for him to say come and collect this little girl that I don't know who you know. Okay Mary so what was your first face to face with Martin? It's interesting actually because I had the things I had about it before it happened that actual events and now the afters are so different so he knocked something I got knocked on the door I was a little girl upstairs and I'm hoping you know he can come and pick her up and he opened the door and he just he did I hate to say it and it really it stays in my mouth I don't like saying it he just looked rather you know in Triggin you know he was in his cowboy staff and he had a twinkling his eyes and he had a little

24:15mischievous guy look you know rough a beer going on and he just looked like fun and after all the I've been through he just looked like a breath of fresh air if that makes sense yeah he was quite a strong dominant character in my suppose in a way in some silly way we all felt a little bit protected in some way by being in his company but that backfired someone's comment is on the YouTube thing about the documentary on channel four on the channel four that he looked like Mary Mary Manson who's the other guy that ended up being a psychopath. Charles Manson. Oh and he does in some of the pictures he actually does and he was a charming guy you know. So he had very charismatic way about him absolutely and in Triggin you're like 20 and you've gone through a lot you just go oh this is different this is adult well this is like nice he treated me nice we had a cup tea we had a chat I told him why I was there and he invited me down one day and I

25:20thought do I go down I don't know I'm too shy if I got my friend to go down a few days later because I asked did you know he is you really don't know don't know don't know so I'll say what's going down I'm going to go to our door because we've been I've been invited down I'm really I'm intrigued so I did went down up to the door and he was in again had a cup of tea and that's how I got to know him and I slowly ended up being going to his house more. We got the impression of the documentary it was like party central yeah there was a lot of people coming in yeah there was it was a lot of he I don't say a lot of parties that when I was there but he did like his alcohol did like to go out drinking he would it's like an open house the neighbors did know that it was just you know you can go there and relax and it just went with their relax and they're having a good time they're having a good time it's safe and then I realised after a length of time that you know how it's weeks in that actually he he had that respect on the estate and as a

26:26long female with the door that's not very good anyone could just put the hand up and open it I felt protected and I guess he had to me because he didn't have a reputation then you're saying no I think you had a reputation but I didn't know what type of reputation I knew he had a reputation that that people kind of respected him on the estate and I don't know why that was but it was he could if they could get cheap for him and yeah I think he was a scary character yeah I think people were so quite scared of him that was it people were scared of him and we were also scared of him and but he was kind of fun to be around yeah there was scared of him for a reason but he showed sometimes he was to show how he would if someone was did something wrong he would put his foot down and say that's not acceptable and people respected that and I saw it I just say oh you know and when people saw me hanging out of him more I felt safer that no one was going to come and break into my house and whatever bugle me again because it'll be or you don't touch it

27:29she's been martingh especially when she comes from a violent relationship come over yes exactly when I'm relationship I felt vulnerable lost a baby you know had my flat burgle before so it just felt like I had protection and I just felt safer that I knew that okay my wife watches my house you just you know you make sure that I'm okay I felt that safety but it was a safety which was I think it's more of a cloak for what his intentions are what he is really new in you know make you feel comfort yeah then really new in and yeah yeah and then we started into a relationship and we actually had you know a physical relationship but it wasn't you know I was just young I wasn't like I suppose nowadays people would like like rabbits it wasn't like that it was more three times maybe and it was consensual it was consensual at the time and nothing out the audience made me think it wasn't that much I would then was he he was he was he was six

28:29years older than me was 26 at a time when I was 20 yeah so but it wasn't sort of like something it was no red flags I know it was just normal actually just like it felt like a normal relationship kissing cuddling you know nothing that made me feel vulnerable in that area did he hide his illegal activities from you the substance as he was dealing right no he didn't but I didn't join in I know when you say about the he used to get it on who is it you said it wasn't it on the thing but he used to do it for himself he would do it in the corner I made a girl okay but you know people do it and people don't do it and I didn't do it so it I just looked at me so not for me I even never forced it on me either and I had smoked that time but it wasn't wasn't getting it from him it wasn't that sort of thing I would do all the time but and then he organised the holiday for your birth 21st birthday yeah he wasn't for me he went to go on holiday

29:30to see his parents and he asked me to go with him and as it was my 21st I thought that would be great my daddy asked me a few months before what I want to do for my birthday and as he said to do a big party and I thought now I'm not sort of wanting to be sent retention never have been didn't like big parties that night you know I don't kind of remember yeah I'm maybe in the room I'm not that sort of person I'm the maybe in the room she sits there and she watches people and I judge I look at people and I look at them okay yeah you're like you want us like hyper vigilant now I think it is more but even at the time I think yeah it wasn't a bit more outgoing actually a little bit more outgoing I become more introvert after that happened so I was more outgoing I did have lots of friends before it happened I was just generally happy how long was it before it started to go like that I think I was going out for about three months in a relationship you know just coming into the sort of cuddling and the kissing and it wasn't like

30:32a slowly going like that it was a sudden it was like he was nice up until that day it was nice up until that day when we went on holiday and all the relationships that happened was in his house anyway he didn't never came to my flat never stayed over never slept with me I never slept with him overnight I was no overnight sleep with him ever I was just yeah it was just a fresh relationship you went to so we went to Cornwall and the first night he didn't come to bed because he stayed up with his parents chattering and I went up to bed and he never came up that night either I woke up on my own I thought it was the first night we actually slept together you know overnight cuddling like you got that what that comfort of a relationship and the second night it didn't happen either because we'd gone out gone out and met people and then on the way we got a taxi back

31:34and you know went up that's the first night we walked into the room like I was like I was just what you was going to get snuggled because you just thought we were going to have a snuggle second night down it's a hot august it's really hot air that day although that week it was really really quite a warm august so yeah I thought I was going to get cuddled up snuggled up I never wanted it in bed back then in your 20s you probably don't you know you're young you got a nice body she feel great about yourself you don't feel vulnerable as a human being in the buff and it was an air being I mean a bed and breakfast so his parents ran it as to they had looked at the time they didn't at the time they didn't oh no it wasn't then at the time I think was after after me that he he ran as a he's dead run to being be after his mum passed away I think that's what happened but I don't know that so he'd go through court transcripts I've read that so yeah the second night up he came up so to me yeah I was just getting to bed I'd be in this

32:35short lean starting to start to send this stuff off and he just said that charismatic way about him the whole time he was very flirtatious it was a very flirtatious person so even in the barbie we were flirting with other other women barmaid and but I don't think nothing of it you don't get that you don't have a jealous streaking you and you're young you don't learn it you don't it's not something you just like straight away you just go oh you're talking to a barmaid that's eyes with me and I'm happy I'm gonna go home I'm gonna cuddle it's really great first night sleeping together do it that way and as I it um I got into bed and also had a bit of drink um and I don't know how long I was asleep for and you you said before you think you might have been drugged as well because I do wonder if I would be drugged because um I will actually work up and I was already tied up right so I woke up um yeah I woke up because I felt my arm moving over my hip actually my arm started moving over my hip and I couldn't pull it and I was like in his

33:37deep sleep my sight was and I'm pulling my arm back and it just kept being pulled creep in the back off my hip it just out of felt I get put it forward and eventually it just went right back behind me and that's when I come up my days I went I looked up and there he was just above me in the dark black in his eyes he was like looking into hell and I just looked him to say what you do and then I don't even I didn't get the whole words out of it it's like what you do and then he jumped from being over me to like a spooning me and then just slammed his hand into my face and suffocated me white me then I tried to move and then my legs were tied and then my hands were back and forth in behind my back and then I was I was just I was trapped I was no way I could save myself that's hard and what a shock after all those months of like you know grooming you into a safe safe environment going to his parents place you know yeah it made you feel safe and it

34:40actually wasn't safe I'd gone into the air do you feel that you were drugged I do think that I look back on it and I go well you know how long was he above me preparing my body he's had to take the blanket off me about waking me you'd have to tie my ankles together about waking me he'd had to pull one off a month underneath me and put on a black really wake up but some point in that wouldn't yeah and my I used to sleep actually with one hand on my shoulders like this I used to sleep with it slightly under me but he's had to applaud it for me underneath me about waking me and then he put restraint around this hand and he put restraint around this hand and then he was putting them together to restitue them together that's what you could feel and that's what I could feel one hand being dragged back I mean it's just like the psychopathness of just be the patience in him if it's you know it's a free meditating long game in order to like even once even more brazing about it is he's done it his parents house not at his house like yeah I know for him that's

35:44definitely it's funny man of his kink of you know his fear being caught yeah he's funny members just down the hall I mean in rooms next to me he just that I'm it's he's probably untouchable he felt so untouchable he could do whatever he liked and because when I was trapped I couldn't breathe and I mean when you're when you're asleep because you know your breath is actually slower you have less oxygen in your body because if it's gone to sleep so slow down so when you're coming around you don't really take a big breath you kind of like just coming into the world again so I didn't have a big long full of breath or even like that and I wasn't actually suffocated me nose and mouth he's pinched my nose and sealed my mouth but at that point yeah the oxygen goes in your body it just depletes to the point where you don't just pass out I didn't pass out but if everything went

36:52dark I couldn't see the light in the room because he had a lamp on so he he was watching what he was doing he was well how he did it and I go back over this over and over again how long would you above me to put me in that prison what was going through his mind his his greed his you know his sick pleasure and how he was getting that excitement out of knowing he was going to entrap me before he me that's a sick man that's not just a sick man that's a real yes plan to plan relationship you're more than likely are going to go home and maybe get a bit fruity of an evening so it it would have been there for him in a loving way but he chose not to have it in a loving way no no so the light went out and I started couldn't see so the

37:53senses go when you are being as fixated your senses go but all the time he's been me and all the time is hurting he's looked up now it's been 22 years we have to love so yeah the light does go out and you don't see nothing and then your body stops you switches off like someone's to light spin trough and I remember can folks beforehand though well done darling no no what a night what an experience just awful absolutely so yeah I remember convulsing it's like electricity going through your body just like I didn't just shut us you shut us so much because your body is trying to survive it's trying to have oxygen to live

38:54and there's nothing so you kind of go through this moment where the body goes into like a shock and then it just stops it just switches off and you use nothing you can do about it nothing but unfortunately the mind's alive your conscious in the world do you know everything and I knew it I think I knew my body was on the bed I willed my little finger to move and it was just not responding to my move little finger and then I my hearing became like a hundred decibels so acute I could hear I could hear all the world at once either altogether or singly you can pinpoint it and even you can't actually see it maybe you say you could hear sweat drum oh okay horrible so at first my conscious as all I can say is as conscious went outside the room and I could hear rustling outside so I I just knew it was nocturnal animals I heard Cardo I had

39:58women laughing and a man talking I knew that was way down the street but it was like I was stood there because it's your conscious expands and then it can come back in and I was back in the room consciously couldn't see nothing body is completely disconnected from a conscious mind is just laying there then I heard the bed rustling so I knew I had pillow or mattress underneath me I heard the floorboards making noises or the house making noises that the tiniest sounds you hear you don't hear normally is like a hundred decibels in your ear but you can hear it all at once or singly that you're almost become that sound you become so conscious of everything it's bizarre and then for some reason my conscious then focused on him behind me and I could feel the breath on me I could hear it his breath around my face and I could hear his eyeballs clicking as he was searching

41:01for my life in me I could hear bees are swet rumbling off his skin I could hear the muscles creaking in his arm you could hear his blood gurgling you go you go inward so your conscious doesn't go outward it almost it can go inward as well I'll actually look at what this is and I as I believe in I know I've read it's called being clinically dead there's no body alive but the spirit or the soul is still conscious in the body it's still it's still attached and Mary's a care worker in real life so she deals with life and death and you know a dating basis and she's like the most loving person to do that job as well so I do say you know he did kill me that day he actually killed me and I also look at the fact that before it happened your soul is in your body it's born into your body and it's in there in a certain way it's placed in your body and it's it fits when your soul is

42:03almost torn from your body and then thrown back in it's fractured it doesn't seem to go back in the same place so you're kind of not such a good way to explain it in association yeah quite how you're not quite how you just apart missing you just can't get it right you're not it's not as as you were born as a soul into a body it's gone back in such a sharp way that it's just thrown it back and it's probably the scarring off the soul yeah and that stays and that's last days it's a fracture that I always believe now I got a fracture I live in the life of fracture a fracture spirit because it's not the same as when I was born yeah and how did you get away that again a lot of people ask me how did I escape it's and I've read a lot about this because I have to understand it because it happened to me I have to understand it I have to

43:06pull it apart and then and in box it so I know what it is and how to how to deal with it and then how to move forward from that point so like an animal that's caught in like a snare or in headlights it plays dead it goes into almost like a this like death state but it must know when it's had the chance to move and I didn't say to myself oh I can I can he's let go it just wasn't like that because I was so conscious of all the noises internally of his body I could hear the creek and his arm and it creaked around my face so I knew I just knew that even though the grip was there it wasn't as tight and it gave me that and I don't know where it came from it was like a last minute power from my soul it just I just shot my head one side and it wasn't me saying do that it just did it it's just a survival mode like an animal instinct mode my head just shot

44:07one side to walled him if I'd have shot away his hand would have gone with my face because I shot towards him and his hand was right around my shoulder he couldn't bring it back quick enough because he was so close to my body with so into my body that I went like that I could hear the noise and I heard it off my nose so I knew his hand had become free and at that point I mean my hands still behind my back I feel still tight everything I'm still trapped I'm still in the prison and I just slammed into the pillow in it went I don't know into the pillow fibers and my life came back it in an instant it came back it was like snap it was bang snap and I was back and then sight was back and everything was back my body was back I feel my body I could feel my hands I can and then still from the restraints and did he try to go at it again in your year me did try but my head was so far in the pillow that he actually couldn't get his

45:07hands through the pillow and my cheeks and I was I dug it in and I tried to bring my shoulder around to protect me it was very difficult and I how I got out and I think the fact because we was in his parents house and when I kind of managed to sort of lean on my forehead in the pillow and so my mouth was free and I was screaming get me out of here that it was loud enough for him to go his family are gonna hear this and they're gonna come in and see me in that state that panicked him but I do know when when I'd become dead when I'd stop moving he he stopped him me and I I do believe that if I'd had some air left and started moving he would continue my torture would have been endured endured my torture as long as possible as long as possible what do you think he would have done if he had a kill to me I've that's gone through my head as well I've actually sat and thought what if I died that day because I was if what if I'd

46:13have died that day what would he have done would he would have gone to his mum the next morning yeah she died in his sleep yeah it's gonna happen no he would have got your body out of there I reckon before his dirty secret to be maintained he would have got rid of me and my mum and dad were never ever never ever able to put him in a little boat they could have easily yeah we weren't yeah it was I don't know it was there Bo or someone that you hire about I don't know but I was on a boat that day with other people but it was that close yeah it was that close yeah of me actually haven't that was it which begs the question that's as he done this before but yeah exactly I always found out from late or we'll get to that later yeah actually I think we're all lucky to be here in some way shape or form we're all lucky to be here today that we've escaped him yeah yeah definitely so he did he untied my hands that were together but they had restraints on both singly and

47:19once I can bring my arms round and I'm crying like that's sobbing my head off the door just went from behind me so I know he left the room and I was trying to take the restraints off my hand and they were shaking and I was just I how I got them off I don't know any one yeah the one because I have a restraint on this one I'm restraining that and then he tied them together all right so you know when we say restraints what were they yeah well we can't say can't we say can't say what the restraints are sorry all right it happens all three of us that's one of the pivotal points that if that's out there on the internet then people will go yeah he used that on me you know what the reason why I was like yeah did he already have it at his mum's or I was thinking about meditation you know what this is it he must have done he must have done because there was one on this hand one on that hand and I had a big one around my feet which is coming like can join together so I I done done this one and

48:19that one and then took it off my legs and then I how I got them off I was shaking and you know just thumbling throughout it so he wouldn't come back in and I'm still being him and I just flunked on against the wall like it's like they'd miss like burnt IV just think it away you don't want to you don't want to touch it I look at you don't see it anymore and then I just had to think what the hell what the hell was he just done what was that all about and I wanted to answer because before that point I was quite you know strong strong character I thought a strong person so I went got dressed that went to try and find him I'm curious by the the fixation with doing it at his parents like did they molly coddle here about Pinterest I don't know I'm at his dad years later and he was a weird little old man he was I think I think he didn't have a good time with his dad he had a silicone nose and I think there was abuse there so I don't know I don't know yeah I also I've heard so yeah it's probably a finger up to them

49:21yeah this is the first time I met his parents so it was the first night I met them actually the first day I met them his mom thought I looked like his ex-wife and she was going to come hit me so that I put a really bad atmosphere already in there of me going okay she was going to hit me because he thought she thought I was his ex-wife and then it made it a little bit awkward that okay this first time I've met his parents the second I hit attacks me and then disappears and they left you with them and then left me with them and I didn't know what to say well I'm not supposed to say to his parents your son just on that what was supposed to say I was so traumatized I could very speak and I couldn't move because it was hurt I remember the pain of not being able to be able to walk properly in the soreness that I had so were you relying on him to get you back home completely I was going to rely on him to get to back home because I thought it was going to be a nice holiday only a week was something like that and then go back home in the same car but you did work out in that way I spent a lot of my money on the way down there and the night that the

50:29first night and the second night so I didn't really have much he was going to get work himself he said so and he didn't when I was there because of what happened I'm pretty sure so I think she had no money to get back home and I didn't know how to get back home from Korma I mean I was 20 years to travel you know too far out of my own area from where I grew up so going back from Korma was like another huge feat that scared the pants off me see you were there for a few days I was two days afterwards but that was because I was like so traumatized I didn't know what to say I didn't know to speak and then on the third day he's he wasn't that by the way I was just he disappeared no he disappeared that night because I went downstairs after it happened I went down stairs I was fully dressed nice and I went to say what he wasn't what I was about and he just he came out he came out me and he grabbed my hand and he just frung me this is all your fault and rub rub rub rub rub his hands in his hand I can remember him doing it but that feeling of fear that I had or seeing him like that and how he made me feel so utterly frightened my man upstairs

51:36saw a chair okay it's the door you know okay back here now I'm so scared and I just stood there crying going all of them I'm gonna do my gonna do panic you didn't know where you are and he just went silent in the house and I just like what I do I just gonna stay here and start crying it's at the bed cried I don't know how long for could have been hours woke up and I was in the middle of the bed for he dressed and I teased him with my face still but there was life downstairs so his family was all up and I'd gone down to take a morning and creep around the house if you hear is he there is in that room and then I'd just sit and sing Martin thinking you know maybe he's calm down and we can go through logically what happened and why he decided that was a good idea on his part and he went there then all that day he didn't come home and then his his parents started questioning me was like I don't know I'm like I can't say oh yeah you're not here because of what you're done to me you just don't you just go you're so scared you're so scared to say anything

52:37one of you're gonna be leaves just so it's just a shame to think oh my god I feel I'm sore I can't I can't barely walk I don't have anything and then how am I meant to mention this to anybody and then he's that give you a lift yeah and on the third day then the third day he said he's I know it's it's on the on the Wednesday we went down Thursday it happened and the Friday said the Wednesday I was down there came back on the Sunday so five days doesn't it went down the Wednesday I'd go from my memory because it it not changes it just it's so I have a so long ago and I traumatized yeah I'm about I boxed it and tried to hide it in the plan doors box and hid it so yeah Thursday night was the night of the attack and work up on the Friday morning and then I work up in the Saturday morning and his parents and raised I'd ask him questions I said I maybe I should just go home he's probably staying away because of me he was but I couldn't tell

53:41why yeah and I said I don't know how to get home I'm getting money and then these dads say well I'll help you pay for a train ticket I said yeah I'll be lovely and then once I had a plan to get out of there oh my god it was like let's go now let's go now I need to get out of here I can't be off to see them anymore now I'm so so scared um we looked at the train times because it's a weekend back in those days I didn't run that off for a couple of times a day I think it was at the weekend one in the morning one in the evening um so we looked at train times and there wasn't one to the Sunday oh I got to stay another night in the house and each night after it happened I would put the chair against the door I hope he wouldn't come in crying myself to sleep I was horrible very terrified cry myself to sleep in all my clothes and just sit there and just hope you didn't come back in the in the house because there's nowhere I want to go around for around two I was I then had more realization of I need you to hide and you to hide and you just get in my head he killed me he killed me he did kill me I was dead and then all the you can't walk he's very sore

54:46you can't walk after because it's always it feels very raw to do anything and even go into the toilet sting a lot yeah because of the when you're not ready for intercourse you you know it's very hurts yeah yeah and it wasn't just it was both ends yeah you poor darling so you got back to the blue rose and then you had to live there for a few more months didn't you well I got on the train star I got the train his dad and his family took me to the train station I was like quick go let's just go let's go he's not going down the road everything it was in my head and I was so hyper vigilant of actually seeing him got to the train station I didn't think about a journey home and so I got on the train I thought oh my god I'm going to London by myself I don't know I don't know what I'm doing I don't know what to do I just thought you know what I'm

55:48just gonna get into London get out of Cornwall I took it one step at a time I had to break my brain down to thinking about it otherwise I don't know what I've done I don't know what I've done been overwhelming yeah yeah you kind of go into this mode where you have to box it and say one step when you're forced into it you have to go one step next one step you can't just go I'm going to do this in there you can't plan you can't plan nothing but you're in so much trauma you go into one step mode in your in your mind so get into London and I just stood there and I remember going what do I do I looked at the train time board I'm like where I go so I back in the day they took it masters do you remember the ticket masters they were stood there I thought he's safe you know like a little policeman really but in the station is a legable one yeah you just go and say oh I need to get to this station where do I go what platform I've got to be on oh you go down there platform for me platform put everything get off at that one I'm like yep yep yep I'll do that part of the journey first and when I'm stuck I'll go back to when I put the person like you again

56:50I know I'll start the journey until I got home and I don't even remember I remember getting to London and saying that but I don't remember going through that other part of the journey into I knew where I was it completely went from my brain and I still can't remember the whole journey home I can't even remember some of the days after it's either because you kind of you hide it and you just want to forget so much that you you lose all the memory of your life and then yet to see him a couple of times didn't you well he because he lived down the road and I didn't know when he was back home and didn't want to bump into him ever and I was about October time I think it was something like that I was starting to feel safer that I'm not going to bump into him I can avoid him I can creep up this alleyway you can go down that alleyway and I just go through all the alleyways from Ryslip to South Ryslip so I'm going to fit it my family so I avoided the main roads I

57:52didn't know if he'd be driving around the roads if he could see me so I kind of like hear amongst the alleyway and where yeah the blues is like a big maze yeah one that's made but when you go through the like the adjoining alleyways of the blue roofs you go across to the the grid system in the area and I felt kind of like I could do that and but by the southern spring pause in alleyway you're all guinell and it goes through that through the road and then another guinell and you can keep going from the guinell all the way down to South Ryslip to get to Bessemly Park and then you're on the road then but you're mainly I'm mainly away from the area and I sometimes go for Bessemly Park it was too open I didn't like the space so yeah it was quite fraught going back and forth to see my own family so you must have been constantly living in fear of running into a room yeah yeah I did you I know I did one into him in the dark door yeah in the dark yeah in the October one I started to feel safe I think I didn't know when he was back I never saw him I didn't get a party's house so I didn't actually knew I didn't know when he

58:53gone home or nothing like that and then one October I think it was a night a wet night and he always been out drinking and he not coming the door and I thought it was my neighbor downstairs the old lady wanted some help when I'd like to just go downstairs like I am and I opened the door and he just stood there and I like oh my god my stomach hit the ground and he with he had oh and it is this ability to help powerful he thought he was he had both hands on the side of the door frame and was lent in was head down was soaking wet crying as he's to say I'm trapping you and I need you yeah yeah and that is just so him for all of our experiences the tears and the arms yeah over the doorways yeah so just stop people leaving his place for like hours because you're born in with his stories like yeah and then I when I had my foot behind the door and I just looked in my full I was in such fear I just looked and went like you find your key I'm not going around too I was you know being now in 21 I knew as a relationship because I've

59:59had relationships before that that was not normal relationship and there's no way I'm going back for seconds you never ever take me back in that I don't get how sorry you look how wet and drippy and drunk you look you can disappear and quickly and I had this door ready to go bang to catch his fingers in the door frame of knee-bomb I would have done I really would have done but he didn't hesitate to come in he didn't sort of come forward he just stood there if to say will she come to me now I'm not coming to you I think I'd you find your key then you lost your key or something and I took a few times he just stood there in silence and the silence was like he just went off ever just like looking into the abyss of please go away please literally please oh god that most of the family and then suddenly you just let go of the door frame and we're not that the only one we're bang but then I just sat there even though I knew the story was waiting for it and then I just sat there and I was like looked at the door and I'll cry okay he will come to my

1:01:00door he's that brazen what do I do I don't want to stay here anyone can put the hand for the door I don't have his protection like I have before felt protected by him from the estate or whatever happens there's no protection at all I'm vulnerable and now more vulnerable people see will come into my door like a brazen monster he can get away if he he can just do it and do it and do it and then people are going to be going back then they're not mate they're not so because of my ability been my age I knew it's not normal and there was no way going back I sat there I looked at the door I sat on the stairs and can I can't stay here tonight what will I do I don't know what I'm doing it's raining so I waited and I went upstairs and I looked out for the windows I can't see him I can't see him outside is he outside I shot on my windows I thought I'm gonna have to go and stay somewhere else for the night I can't stay in my flat I'm so scared that

1:02:01I could be asleep one not go to sleep and then wake up in that same position that you have been in his parents health just wake up with it all behind me my hands behind me and that made me I couldn't sleep on my own flat yeah so I left that night again my better judgment open the door gently that was your best it was but yeah and I kind of went not the way on tailing close I went up can't go closer and ran to a friend that I'd met a female friend it was with her family and I knocked on the door and they said come in I said don't need to be I don't need to be on my own I'm supposed to go sober and I did that nearly every night yeah for quite a long time to be safe to be safe and then you moved didn't you I know I was there I was there for nearly two years living in that fear and in one day I had to friends come round I joined a martial art group I was like botaner stable after the horse had gone I joined a martial

1:03:02art group the following year to try and protect myself in case someone did that and I could get out of these situations but and I did two a year after I got away from him I did tie-boxing for a year yeah my my most corkataida back in the day it was corkataida I got tied constantly in street and and and judo at the same time so I only got to black belt yeah breaking bricks and my feet but you wanted to see them there yeah but I brought two bricks with my feet wow in a power whether it is in a power I messed with Mary but I do remember six months about six months after the attack that I used to start getting these really strange sleep patterns because I was so tired sleeping on my friends so far that I used to have a sleep in the daytime in my house on my sety watching TV I'd fall asleep I was so tired but I had to use a lot of quite strange sleep patterns and then you kind of put me

1:04:07back in that place where I I could see things in the room but I always felt like I was frozen it's almost like I was having a fit without help I can't pronounce it per row sleep paralysis yes I sleep paralysis that's right so but I used to hear like tuning in radio waves like oh yeah and like I said so I was listening to a radio and I couldn't jump out of a mouse paralyzed I had to really go my god yeah so then I started drinking one heavily to sort of take that away drinking alcohol and smoking more stuff because it's a numb everything to take it away I smoked for most of my life like the side to my kids because it's just self-medication really to help with the self-harm I found it was like self-harm with me it was it yeah end up being self-harm with me really when you know it's it's been so much smoking but I was smoking a lot yeah that was it was hard doing that and then and then we lost my sister in 1989

1:05:12two year after a year after in a car crash at the age of 19 oh god sorry so that was quite violent she was 19 yeah she was 19 years I was one of my little sisters yeah so but I was so out of my face on drunk alcohol and and that I'd fallen asleep I know you just sleep my bedroom I didn't sleep in bedrooms I just sit in the city or on the floor in my front room because it's a disassociation from the bedroom safe yeah safe further as well don't you so anywhere knock and door came one night about three o'clock of ink it was and I was I was completely at my face because that's how I had to sleep and I'd done a how I woke up but I I felt like someone was stood over me watching me and I felt I got sun in the room I got sun in the room I could feed my head when I come around there was no one there and then I sat over and it was my family to tell me my sister was supposed to wait like oh god

1:06:15yeah so you think that was your sister visited yeah do 100% she visited me to wake me up because otherwise I would never heard a doorbell I've never known to the next day yeah and then when when you can I lost my sister that kind of all my trauma I went on the back burner because I got new trauma and yeah the deal was a family of grief yeah moving forward in a different way yeah that's been my life just replacing one problem with another yeah and then you never really get a chance to deal with the pain you don't you don't solve it out no exactly and unfortunately the the guy that drove the car was a fiance um obviously he was very sad and he came around sometime after that he's you know I've he survived yeah um another story that one that was time he came around to visit one day and so she got a fraudulent you know because he was still like as part of the family as in some respects even though what happened um and I had to

1:07:18walk past his house for the first time but this yeah yeah and I'm like oh my god I've not walked past his house I'm not talking past his house and out this was my sister passed away in the thember I'm pretty sure it's in the only part of 1919 that and it was literally over over a year oh definitely over a year over a year and three months or so four months I had to walk past his house for the first time and as we got closer I said can we cross over to the other side as we crossed over I glanced up and yeah he was there with another woman Carp it was going in I thought oh god he's forgot about me thank god he's moved on I'm not on his hit list I can feel safe uh the knife has felt um but he's still doing she was gods oh just always one day anyone is with him like she need to talk yeah there's got to be yeah a few more a hundred percent a hundred percent I mean you know what he dumped me that night it was

1:08:21pre-militated on his part and I'm pretty sure that there's more than just us because we didn't know anything had happened to anybody before us I thought I was the first yeah and then obviously in meeting you a few years back was like well you know when I when you realize how long he's been doing and we eventually found out even when he was 18 he he nearly got a 12 year old trapped in his flat she escaped him and got downstairs he'd sent her mates off to buy sweets yeah we found out so pre-militated again he knew what he was playing uh he knows what to play at yeah see I don't just person to have on the streets anyway yeah so so so Murray oh my godness you know salute to your bravery yeah to revisit that in the detail you know I mean we've we've been to a lot of survivors and while listening to you I went hard I was angry I was sick to my stomach there's so many emotions it was like a rollercoaster it was so visceral yeah and I'm sure the viewers were

1:09:23watching this are feeling exactly the same bloody hell did the do you know this man did not capture that what you've just described I mean it was a brilliant documentary but what you just described I just really it makes me want to I can't even say what I want to do to this guy you know hearing it yeah I'm very serious yeah I've had a lot of therapy and I still have my therapist when I need her but yeah I had a lot a lot of therapy and she used to say to me try and imagine you know you can do whatever you want to him you know you can hurt him in your mind and I actually tried that as a therapy thought and I thought I can't do it and I actually thought I'm gonna strip bits of your skin off a bit at a time they made me feel sick yeah and I thought no I can't do that I'm not that based and even my own mind can't do that to someone who's that evil yeah because you're a good person exactly not stick into his level yeah I would know and you said yesterday that you found

1:10:29solace and help in writing oh god I think we should leave that to Lisa yeah because Lauren's got limited time right and and we should I think we should is it okay if we go over to Lauren yes yeah let's so what what was your growing up late Lauren it was amazing I had loving family nice house lovely brothers lovely cousins um lots of lovely holidays it had a great upbringing yeah um I often fought to myself not that if you had a bad upbringing it meant that you went on to have bad done to you but I didn't see this come in my way because if I had such a loving family and I was so protected that this just came out the blue um I think I was a little bit rebellious because of I had learned in difficulties at school and I felt a bit misunderstood so I think that's probably where I went down a bit of the bad route maybe being rebellious yeah

1:11:30so it sounds like then um you know the documentary portrays like kids who are like estranged what you wouldn't put yourself in that category no not not in the beginning I mean I was always a little bit different I've always looked different and been judged for that a lot but no I I just felt like I had a good life and I was hanging around with my friends and I loved the blue roofs and I loved the area so I didn't see any danger coming my way so you weren't living there and I know why not about what would you say 15 minutes up the way yeah you're about 50 minutes I was about 10 minutes away yeah love of us actually lived there at first yeah so going to secondary school we met a lot of new friends obviously and a lot of them lived on the estate so whereas we used to hang around down the park and the swimming pool and our friendship group kind of expanded a bit we met people down there so we just ventured off down there on our bikes and playing around and it was fun hmm yeah so when did you first meet Martin um I think where was we used to play

1:12:31outside his home we used to play this game called Kirby so that there was like this little pull-in bit where we would play so I I knew of him and I'd seen him and stuff like that um I got a job to remember we start by you know well I remember you'd ready met him you'd already probably like six months or maybe even a year before I did because I remember like he was where everyone went to buy a little bit of because he'd sell a stack of spree yeah so we don't pile in two peas and ten peas and go and get a spree for them but he didn't like boys going around there so then so you'd been going around there with like your girlfriend maybe just to get just very breezy oh yeah I forgot to tell you so we're going to call it green otherwise YouTube I see Joe yeah I'm so just say green it's okay so I think where as I was playing with my mates all the time I'd seen him around so I knew exactly what he looked like and I knew his name um and then like what it

1:13:35says in the documentary there was one day it was coming up to my 14th birthday and if someone my mates were like should we get hold of something naughty or whatever and we didn't know how to do it how to roll it nothing and um but someone said to me well why don't you go around martins and get some stuff and I was absolutely petrified to do so but that was my first encounter with him alone um and knocking on the door and going in and just saying oh it's my birthday I'd like to get hold of something sort of thing and um yeah he he was on his own and the door closed behind me and it was all dark and dim and smell it was like a cave and I wasn't used to that sort of life I had you know it was more loving and clean and didn't have a dirty interior yeah so um he tried to keep me there for as long as he could do talking about a load of nonts and sort of thing and I just wanted to get back with my mates or thing and um anyway he passed me a bag of I don't know what it was

1:14:36and um yeah and then he said take your pick so I took it and I said thank you um and I wanted to get back with my mates but the last thing he said to me is well when you finished with your friends come back and see me and I thought that was a bit weird did he intimidate you um I don't know whether he was purposely intimidating me but because I was young and small I felt intimidated by his presence I mean shaved head and tattoos and piercings and stuff like that he was a very dominant character um but yeah then then I went off back to my mates and carried on with my birthday celebrations but I suppose the next time I fully met him was this big party that he held and it was all full of kids and adults and stuff like that so that was the next time that was that was betrayed in the documentary wasn't it yeah yeah so you you all go over there and what what's yeah he basically hosted a kids party on the estate so all the estate kids came

1:15:40as a 14 year old birthday party and it was just full up with adults and kids basically wasn't and it looked fun and an intrigue and a disco lights and cool like smoke machines and stuff were you at that as well yeah yeah yeah and this is what I mean by it on on sorry I had this massive table when it was full of all kinds of drugs all kinds of alcohol from spirits to beer um and cigarettes just in a bowl so as a kid when you're already smoking and you feel like you're being a bit naughty and a bit cheeky when you go around there and you don't have to pay for it you know and you can smoke safely without getting judged by the adult sort of thing so it kind of and told of that there was never food there it was always like a fridge full of like six liters of vodka like loads of bottles of coke or lure and I mean I'd never seen anything like it it was not my lifestyle my parents didn't really drink you know it was I would never been it's just it was a party however it was always like every every day yeah it was just every day like he used to just mix up

1:16:44white stuff with the food blender didn't he yeah and just and the smell of it used to just you know the chemical smell used to maybe I think he was chopping some didn't mix in it not mix in it up yeah I didn't see that when I was a six years previous that wasn't as as bad of what they're so I knew it was what that part of it I think he probably got worse as well you must have got worse over the years yeah but he didn't hide anything did he he didn't and he did hide it like when he went out and stuff like there were wherever he'd go mental there was like loads of holes in the walls because it was plasterboard so like the walls were like they got worse in the two years where I was going around there when I was there but the holes in the walls he'd stuffed drugs into as well I'll let hide them in the who've not in who've bag but in the who've are and just also it's a place yeah I remember hearing once he used to get a big packet of like say onto the bar say ten packets of crisps in a big bag but he would empty it all out and wash wash out all of the crisps

1:17:49and then he would put the drugs in that and he had this like bag sealer that he would then seal the crisps up and then put it in the main big bag of crisps yeah but you know back then we're doing nick crisps so that would be a rubbish head yeah yeah but how we even had the device to heat up the bag of crisps yeah yeah but the police if they raided his property they would never have thought well let me get that big bag of monster mansion start undoing every packet do you know what I mean it was it was absolutely bizarre but yeah so the party it was how you met through the party but we we went to nursery school together we've known each other since we were two we went to place we were the same age as well so we would have literally met in the pram you know when we were our parents knew each other didn't they so like my dad and your dad probably drunk down the pub yeah yeah just and we only lived ten minutes down the high street from each other yeah we lived done like parallel roads and both our dads were like laborers weren't they my dad's

1:18:51double blazer yeah my dad was a carpenter as well before yeah so the party then did it just that out was fun before it became we got invited that I think that was the first time we were allowed boys in the house so we've been popping around there before just to get and that was the first time that he was made the lads welcome because he was because his birthday party it was they wanted boys in the house that they were at their own age so yeah the boys were allowed in house the first time weren't they yeah yeah so the party was going well I well I say the party was going well we were having fun for the first say hour and that but then it kind of just really changed and went a bit heavy and dark and I suppose then we had already taken some form of drug or god knows what was put in our drinks but yeah it was all a bit wibbly how were you feeling we hallucinated I just knew that I wasn't quite in control of of me again he had some weird drugs as well like as

1:19:52the years went on like I found out that he had like loads of like weird prescription like psycho psycho medication like like sedative like one was one of his go to things and he'd like literally pay people to take it just to laugh at them like he was very stupid he was a widow he'd be like oh I dare you to take this and give you 20 quid like because I've been right I've been writing as well I've just finished writing my book and in it there's a chapter called pint of piss and it was about how he he say I'll give like said there was a group of kids he'd be like I'll give you a fiver to drink this pint of piss he'd like literally turn around and pissing in front of everyone yeah and then it'd be like it's warm it's not got any bacteria in it yet but it will have and then he'd go up to like 10 pounds 15 pounds 17 pound and go like 20 quid and then but all these kids had nothing in it and some of them some people yeah some kid struggled to even find food in the day so one guy actually like took a sip of the s and then he was like no I said the whole point and

1:20:57then oh it was just disgusting just because and it was like the psychologicalness of it all like you know the minute-pilative the the theatricalness of it and he was just really into people's head you know what I'm saying and it's actually to result doing that and I didn't realize until someone read my my book recently and said you know that and itself is child and it's like well of course it is actually what the do you ever remember on the table he used to have a little pot of vix and when people he would give people see and when they would come up he would put it on his thumbs and he would rub it in their eyes do you ever remember that then what would happen is it would make you come up on the xc I think it happened to me once but I watched it being happened to people over the course of time and and then it would make you come up on the in such a harsh way but then there was other things like he would have a baby bottle of hot water and a baby bottle of ice cold water and whereas you would sit on the corner sofa and he would be

1:22:02kind of sitting right on the corner bit on the floor so everyone else would be around he'd get women he'd get girls to brush his hair someone would be brushing his hair he was like the master of it all someone would be brushing his hair someone would be rubbing his hands someone would be maybe even tickling his feet and so whereas people were like coming up on the drugs he would then get the baby bottle that was cold and he would put it on your back and then that would make you rush and then it was the hot it was all weird controlling your eye yeah yeah and then like as because I ended up moving in there well I ended up living there and he had like books on psychological how to people he had books on this like do you know what I mean because I remember oh yeah we'll get to that like yeah he was he was really into that was his thing wasn't it yeah let's go back to the party this swimming dark the parts of the atmosphere's changed yeah so then the point where things went

1:23:03really wrong with me is he so the music was really loud so I don't think people could hear what he was saying do you know what I mean it was all done a bit sneaky and he said all come into the bath from it would come with me sort of thing so I followed him but I didn't know I had no warning that anything sexual was expected of me or anything like that and so yeah I followed him into the bathroom and he locked the door behind him and yeah he undone his trousers put his hand put my hand on on his private area and kind of in a way showed me how to move it and I had never had any experience of the so 14 14 15 so you're about 10 15 that month yeah so you're only 14 and I don't know I don't know why I didn't scream or run or say no I think because of I wasn't sober and with it I mean even if I was sober and with it I don't know how I would have reacted but because I

1:24:05wasn't in control and I was frightened and I don't know I don't know what he would have done to me if I said no that's another thing that I remember being scared of so and I know that there was a load of my friends outside the door because I could hear them and I think even one of them said Laura are you okay sort of thing but I was just silent and I think a couple of friends or a friend looked under the door and they could see that our feet were together so I think they thought that maybe it might have been a kiss or something and maybe I was going to consent to that again I don't know but yeah it was all over within when I felt like it went on for a long time but I think really it was all over within five to ten minutes and yeah and I'd never seen or experienced anything quite like it even the reaction of a human body if someone touched you in that area it was just all how it behind you know what I mean it was just very hard expression

1:25:08trying to explain these stuff and go back as you're taking your memory back it's so hard to explain it all you feel there's got feeling you start shaking as you talk about stuff I just oh yeah I just didn't know what it was all about I just didn't know what it was all about but I mean obviously I knew that it was a sexual act but he also knew you weren't interboys really well I don't know what he thought then I don't know what he thought then I don't even know if I knew what I thought then no okay no so yeah and then he done his trousers up and and that was it he didn't say anything to me we didn't talk and we went out and I suppose because of I was high on the drugs I couldn't go home I didn't know where to go and because of all my friends were still in the party I suppose I stayed but I just remember sitting on the sofa yeah just watching the whole party for the rest of the night and until I fell asleep

1:26:09so yeah that was the party how did you feel when you woke up yeah um I suppose on I'm confused but also want to come down from the drugs that I had taken so again not thinking straight um but yeah just just confused just did you consider going to the authorities no not at that point at all no no I suppose I knew that it weren't right but I don't think I knew how wrong it was and even though I was 14 15 I don't suppose I even saw it as I was under age you know um yeah and because you think you're 30 didn't yeah because you consider to take in drugs you feel guilty don't you yeah yeah yeah and I feel like it was my fault you know and it just thought he had that way of making you feel it was your fault as well yeah that you

1:27:09you were the one that incited it all he made that he blamed me that night he made me feel it was my fault I put myself in that place so I carried it all my life yeah well you and your woke up so I was on the sofa I was just on the sofa and I think when I when I saw that it was daylight maybe I felt like I could go home so I'll come away from the situation but the person whose party it was there was also another thing going on where us kids were being taken to the cinema so um I felt like I had to turn up to that too because if I was celebrating my friend's birthday and and that was I don't know whether that was a couple of days after or the following weekend so I went to that um I can't remember where it was it might have been up spread your something and um he was there and a few other friends so you wasn't there no at the cinema I don't think so no that wasn't and then we were all bought McDonald's but then he left and no one understood why

1:28:13he would leave when we were having lunch sort of thing um anyway we then went into the cinema we watched the film then he took us back to his place but then I realised why he left through the McDonald's because of he then took me upstairs and then he gave me jewellery and somehow he had got something made with his initial and my initial and that was when he really put it on me that he loved me and that he wanted to be with me and it was just all very very quick yeah yeah and again how did I take it um would I say that I was overly excited or in love with him no but why didn't I stop it I don't know because you're young because I was young um and it feels really like confused young yeah and it's really really really dominating to just play though I mean even if you were the same age like someone suddenly giving you jewellery without your consent I just got some joy made with your initials and then confused telling me that he loved me so I felt like I couldn't say no thank you I don't want this or I didn't know how to say no I just didn't know how to kind of stick up for

1:29:18myself so I just was quite silent all of the time and even that's not right in itself is it you know yeah yeah so you know I've had to live my whole life blaming myself and the shame and actually for many many years feeling like it was my fault and I must have consented to it all like in the bathroom because I didn't say no and then I must have consented to it because I didn't say no to the jewellery then I must have consented to it so in the end I was just in this kind of drugged an alcohol state for many months of being groomed and I didn't know I was being groomed did that came a lot later in my life it didn't I don't think it really even kicked in in my 20s that I'd been groomed I think it was more my 30s as I become an adult and a parent that was when I could really look back and think wow you know I think when you've been you should body naturally goes into three different states which it's either freeze fight or flight and by the sounds of it

1:30:21you went into a very freeze moment yeah don't ever blame yourself in that situation thank you it's hard I mean I've tried to let go of a lot of that shame and blame but there's always a part of you that you know will feel no and this went on for a good couple of years and it went on for a couple of years and because of I'd gone down a slippery slope and I was struggling at school because of I I'd learn in difficulty so I'd kind of checked out of school I was always very different I stuck out like a sore fun I mean luckily I wasn't really bullied I had lots of friends but because of I was like a unique character I didn't quite know where I fitted in and because of he was different looking and had the shaved heads and the tattoos and the piercings I suppose I felt like I could resonate in some way but he also like in my in my perspective started like emily in what you look like I remember he had an undercut after you have an undercut and even buying similar clothes to you like he wanted to be a teenager himself yeah he literally like was very

1:31:24obsessed with Lauren yeah so your 14 years his boy so good he was born in 61 through the ages of and we're born in the 21s is 20 years older so he was in my life really on and off so the main part was between 14 and 16 where a lot of the damage was done but because I'd I'd broken away from him and had a relationship with a girl and we kind of lost touch but then what happened was when I split up with her and then I kind of went back into that like rejected because if she left me sort of thing I then went back to what I knew and I kind of went back to Martin so he was in and out of my life right up until I was about 17 18 so what was it like in those two years with him of just an awful lot of drugs and awful lot of drink it started off with him spooning me like on the sofa and cuddling me sort of thing I I suppose I felt in some way like I was his girlfriend so

1:32:29I I kind of accepted that he was my boyfriend you were engaged when you were like 50 well again he proposed to me it's all the whole estate so everyone yeah he's engaged to a young team yeah he was so brazing so brazing but so a lot of the time in the beginning because if I didn't I wasn't having intimacy with him so bar often or not I would wake up like the following morning and then he would say and this was quite often like yeah no we had a really really lovely night last night and I made love to you and this sort of thing but because I couldn't remember it I I just assumed oh I must have got so drunk I didn't know what was happening to me so I just assumed I consented to it all sort of thing but then I suppose I would come around on certain occasions and I would realise that actually the stuff that he was doing to me was very far fetched for even a 16 year old it wasn't normal it's all we knew it wasn't normal sex so one of the experiences I had was

1:33:35I might I felt quite sick on the alcohol so I'd been sick he'd told me to go upstairs and go to to sleep it off and then I woke to being restrained and it was the most unusual thing how he had done from my wrist to wrist ankle to ankle yeah ankle so it was in like a a square shape on your front so it was like this so like that so from here to here here to here here to here and I couldn't move I just absolutely couldn't move at all and obviously he was having sex with me me call it what you call it but that definitely wasn't consented by me and you just been sick and I'd already been sick and I wasn't feeling I was feeling ill I wasn't feeling in control so I think really many of nights that I'd had with him he's given me all the alcohol he's given me the God knows what else he's lacing my drink with so I was you know absolutely to be let I heard it was yeah

1:34:39I remember really panicking at that point in time and showing that I didn't like the situation that I was in and he did then start undoing the restraints so in one way he was doing something very very wrong to me but when he took the restraints off I then felt maybe I could trust the fact that he wasn't going to harm me so that was quite yeah that was that was very confusing so you know if he was going to take it as far as that but he was then going to respect my safety in a way I then thought okay okay so we're fine I'm safe you know and then another time again I'd gone upstairs I was laying on the bed but I was actually being sick over the bed really being sick and I thought he came up to make sure that I was okay but he got behind me and started having sex with me while I was being sick so would he talk to you Jordan he's in the house with no no

1:35:43no so yeah very confusing for under the age of 16 and but in one way I was so confused because it was like he loves me he wouldn't harm me but then he's harming me but I don't realise the extent of the harm and then and not process it all no and then another really right when I look back another sick and twisted time was there was another under the age of 16 year old on his sofa and he'd come on the sofa I was laying down and he got on top of me with a sleeping bag over the top of him and I thought he was just cuddling me but he didn't he took my clothes off and he started trying to have sex with me in front of this child that was looking very distraught and uncomfortable on the sofa and I just when I was laying now I just thought to myself he's he's not gonna do that he's not gonna overstep that mark no way and and that was just it was just awful

1:36:48it was just absolutely awful and then in the end because of the other child was showing distressed that they were uncomfortable with the situation um he rather than stop he literally shouted at them and told them to get upstairs and dragged them by the hand and push them in the direction of going upstairs to the bedroom to get out the room and then he he came back and had sex with me and and again because if I was witnessing his anger in making that other child go upstairs I felt like I couldn't say no to him so I felt trapped no so quite a few significant nights that I remember being very bad you know there was a lot of aggression in his household as well like if he had the ump he would put the push the table up on its head and everything with smash and sometimes he would throw ass trays down the room sort of thing so yeah well I witnessed a lot of that like especially on the anniversaries of his yeah therefore his birthday

1:37:55yeah and like the whole place we get any glass we get smashed and sometimes you would go on hit you our of him smashing things so there'd be nothing left as much we were petrified were you ever aware of him abusing any of the kids while you no not so I thought it was just me yeah I'd never heard of anything before me I'd never even heard him put himself on anybody else I literally just thought it was me because it was publicly known that you were with him that would have sort of like helped you think that you know I thought I thought in a way it was this this was a normal relationship you know I hadn't really had full-on relationships before this point so no and there's definitely something about an adult you always talk to respect adults you know and so when he's telling me things I'm believing him like you know I'm absolutely believing if he asked me to do something I'm doing it because I'm respecting my elders and I'm trusting in my elder you know but

1:38:59yeah yeah teenagers are guided by the elders aren't they they're so vulnerable they can just be manipulated in so many different ways like you wouldn't even think of yeah so yeah this went on for two years two years yeah because from for meeting him and then you said earlier that you were 18 because you so he was in my he was in my life as as a friend he had gone on to have relationships I suppose that was when like when he went on to have a relationship with you well no because we're completely overlapped weren't we I mean but I don't think I saw a lot of it I think where was I went on to have a relationship with my first girlfriend and I don't think I knew what was going on just what I was living there I just thought you were living there I didn't think you was in harm's way but the first time I ever saw you and it is it's it's a vision I've never been able to get out of my head he'd given me a key which when I had kind of left his life for about six months or something like that he must have forgotten that I'd got the key to his property yeah

1:40:04and brazing I don't know why I went in there must have left something in there but I'd come back with my girlfriend at the time and I'd just let myself in and he was laying on the sofa with you and I remember I remember seeing you on the sofa and I just remember seeing that sadness in your face and and I think that's when I realized that you must have gone through some of the stuff that I had gone through but that that that's when I knew yeah that's when I knew and you must have been about 16 then so how old were you when you were well I kind of escaped you just before 16 some six I'm six months younger than you yeah so I escaped him just before my 16th birthday right so I must have been about 16 when I let myself in the home when I saw you and he was laying on top of you and I dread to think what must have happened to you that night but you could you see this I was there for two years so yeah it wasn't yeah it's all you know yeah it wasn't just one night it wasn't before we

1:41:06go on to your story Laura because I think that's tiny and quite nicely how did it end with you Emarty because obviously you said you went on to have a girlfriend I just think I just stopped going around there it wasn't a normal I'm ending with you or anything like that I think it was just I just stopped kind of going around there I just stopped going around there and yeah and that was it yeah okay Laura so what was your life like then before you know Emarty and say yeah I had like a strong family like I've got free siblings and my mum and my dad and they did before the recession in the 80s like my dad's business doing double glazing was doing pretty well so we'd go and like package holidays for a few years running and we went we bought a caravan used to go to France campaign and I've got a lot of nice memories from those days and I think probably when I was about seven or

1:42:07I realized there was cracks in my parents marriage and the drinking the my dad's drinking started being a lot more noticeable and I think where the recession started hitting around 89 I think there wasn't so much money so like yeah and my dad started being a lot more like violent like we'd read him coming home if like my brother had been naughty at school my mum would not want to tell my dad and because he would yeah that's kind of their story really but basically yeah I remember once because my mum started going to college because she needed to get her money as well and she wasn't really qualified so she went to college and then so we'd get my little brother from school and stuff like that and I remember one day my dad we kept my little brother off school because it was his birthday we wanted to build his Lego castle with him and stuff and I remember my dad just coming in and kicking it my little brother's hands and then we grabbed him and hid in the shed until my mum got home

1:43:12and I remember about two weeks later we found Lego and done it into the ceiling where he'd kicked it that hard and yeah there was a lot of things like that I remember my dad traced my mum with the TV trying to throw it at her and we've all three of like the older kids we were grabbed his legs and stopped him and like these are like the worst memories I've got like a lot of good memories too but obviously the bad ones stick out more and as we got older my older brother was in quite a lot of trouble at school and stuff and he ended up getting pretty bad by my dad really badly and yeah I mean I won't say exactly what he did because again it's not really my story it's his story but he ended up running away when he was like 14 and I was 12 and I remember running to station

1:44:18and seeing blood on the floor and I just missed the train and sorry they're taking a minute and then I didn't see him for two years and I heard at that point me and my brother were pretty close like me and my brother were pretty close so we so I just missed him so much you know and then I think it I think it was quite a long time to get my dad to leave I think I he finally left when I was about 14 which is a bit of an overlap with me going to the blue roofs and stuff so for a while the house was really like turbulent place to be and yeah I didn't feel safe there at all and actually when I was 12 I'd attempted to I think Lauren found out about that and maybe and she reached out to me because the Frenchic group I had like actually it's weird because

1:45:21my parents are Catholic too so here when you say that but they weren't luckily for me they weren't like inter-going to church and stuff so um but I remember one of my friends being religious and saying I'm not allowed to be your friend anymore because you try to get yourself yeah I won't say a name but it's like you know it's just yeah it's not her fault she was a child you know um but um and then I sort of started hanging on with different friends and stuff and slowly stopped going school in year in the year seven at secondary school I was like you know we really really clever bright little girl I was I even did Latin club and started doing GCSE Latin when I was 12 and I was like they I went from being the bottom group maths because I was doing it in a different way like sort of like I'm blatantly ADHD and I was doing it in a way where I didn't need to do the workings out like them so I was like getting put in all the bottom groups and then suddenly one of my teachers realised I was doing it like the A level way and so I did my mastery CC two years early

1:46:21but by the time I did the exam for that I was already very much living on the estate off my head on all sorts of stuff and um I got to see for math still even though I was off my head so but by then I stopped going to school pretty much and so when I went to the same party as Lauren um I already knew about him because we'd been going around there just to vice-green and stuff and um but that party was when it sort of went up a notch with the intake of different substances and so much alcohol vodka like you wouldn't walk in the house without him he had loads of pint glasses and he'd just put them all on table he had always had like six litres of vodka and they were always getting replenished differently. Every drink was in a pint after it was not a normal timble hour and they were always half a pint of vodka with a bit of a coke and some ice or whatever it was never like a smooving and then in that it was to master the tea so he'd also pours beer into that and watch it fizz and then expect everyone to drink it

1:47:24and then if you didn't drink it like he'd go around the whole circle with his letter opener with a wizard letter opener with on the end of it and if you didn't take it you literally had this dagger pointing towards your mouth so it was like you know you kind of it was pretty threatened and then so you would just take it and then if you didn't he'd ridicule like most people wouldn't refuse but you'd just see him the way he ridiculed all the lads and stuff. Yeah he was a bit bullying when he was such a bully like he'd just sexualize make it a sexual thing talk about the size of their bits and give them some and then when they went for a win they come back he'd be like oh did you see how much it shrunk and just talk about things that kids didn't talk about you know like and just yeah everything was sexual with him like from the word from the word off and I was a really shy little girl actually wasn't I I was like I wasn't confident I'd never even kissed a boy before you know I was just a really shy little girl and it happened with me not long after

1:48:31the party so like that's what you know with me and Lauren there was a massive overlap um it's the first thing that started with me was um my other friend lived there too in the house which is why I felt like that's why I moved in the house because I shared her room and her bed with her and it was a water bed that was never turned on so it was freezing cold water bed with loads of blankets on it and I woke up but she'd gone to school and um he climbed on top of me and pinned me into like the wooden frame of the water bed and the water see the water because it wasn't like properly full the water you just sink down into the side and the words and stuff and he'd like pinned me into the water bed and was I had my clothes on because I'd never sleep you know with I don't have like pajamas or anything like that and I would never sleep naked because it's not you know um but I have my clothes on and he was clothed with jeans and everything but he was like on me crying like soaking me completely drenching me with sweat and tears because him and Lauren

1:49:40had had an argument or something and he was like right started to dry hump me like just rubbing himself up against me like in a real sort of sexual way but with clothes um and I guess I'm trying to rationalize what he was thinking but because we had our clothes or maybe he didn't think it was forever but it was very much like being and the tears and stuff so like obviously to be like oh what's wrong and then you're like what you doing to me you know what I mean and um but others I couldn't get him off me I just couldn't because he was a side when you think I was such a skinny little thing as well you know I was like you know I wasn't even I wasn't even my height that was going to be because I still I was still growing and that and I was just um pinned under him and then when he stopped and went to sleep straight away he kind of just you know just went limp on me like in a ledger form yeah dead weight on me um I'd managed to like get him off me and I was all

1:50:45sticky with his sweat and everything and I remember just reaching for my uniform and grabbing it and then running going into the bathroom and putting it on other I'll barely ever went to school and it was 14 and I barely ever went to school at that point and that's the only place I need to go to so I just put my school uniform on top of my clothes like and then went out and then I realised I didn't have my school tie which means I would have had to face the teachers as soon as I got in so I um turned around and I looked at the house I just couldn't and I just looked up at the room where I knew my tie was and I was like there's nowhere I can go back up there like so I um went to school and um and then I went straight into the where they had the spare ties was with the nurse and when you sign in late you have to go there anyway so I had to go and write my name on the book and tell her I didn't have a tie in that and by the time I got there I was such sorry

1:51:46such a state I was such a state that um but she was putting her jacket on when she saw me and she was a lovely woman like I probably could have told her and um and she was just putting her jacket on and she was like I'm so sorry Laura I know you know I can see that you need me but I'm on my way out because I've got to go to a hospital appointment and um it's such one of them sliding to all moments because like she had her own life stuff going on and she never returned to the school she found out she got results hospital which were obviously really bad so she never even returned to school and then she told me to write everything down and when she comes back she'll read it with me and um I'd write it in it all down or she said to leave it on a desk in that but I didn't leave it on a desk because what I wrote down was too much do you know what I mean so I did write it all down and then I kept that note and I back up my family home I um had these big demi-john bottles

1:52:53that I'd got from a car boot so and when I used to put I used to collect coins and used to put coins in there and then the other one I used to put memories like like tickets of the track train tickets and cinematic it's and little right little notes on them and started filling it up with all my memories and stuff and then I ended up putting this note in there and didn't look at it for another like 15, 14 years I think and um Mike sorry yeah I ended up not looking at it for another like um 14 years and um so yeah so anyway I went back to my mom's house to my home and then but I was by then I was addicted to read it already and I was addicted to green and I was just very much like lost I was completely lost and then obviously my friends my best friend lived there and she was going to wonder where it what had happened while I wasn't coming home so I ended up going back there not

1:53:57long after probably a few days later you do have a little psychosis didn't you from it all mate yeah I was hallucinating all the time we've it's likeosis and my skin was so bad as a teenager like I've got really good skin now competitor yeah hormones as well but everything yeah toxic stuff for sure um so I ended up um I ended up back there and then um yeah so obviously things got worse and um ended up just a lot of the time I wouldn't go to bed I would just end up collapsing on the safer I guess by then because I used to even even some of my friends come to visit me there from before and I had a group of friends from like North like from what for Derrier that I met when I used to go to festivals with my mom and that and some of them my festival friends they're lovely hippie lads you know like not like they weren't they were all

1:54:59into a bit of green and that but they weren't but they they'd come around there and some of them he totally manipulated and got mashed on things he used to do some awful things like not to them lads especially but but he used to do things like when a man or boy fell asleep he'd like they'd wake up and he'd put like Vaseline or Neville so they weren't sure if they'd been told something like when they yeah so like yeah so I mean he might have he might have abused and but that is abuse and itself even touching it to put it on is abuse right so yeah I think he was accused of it once and I think after that as well he continued to do exactly what you said I think it's definitely something he's done yeah he do things like that to everyone and like and then that was his way of like making that was like he was mainly wasn't and then he do things like like there was quite a lot of junk junkies like hand users that used to come to the house and some of them were like nice people they're just hurting themselves you know and like and there was this

1:56:00one guy and he like twiddle toilet row up his nose and then right when he was asleep he twiddle it right or gouching out twiddle it right up so it was like these big bits of toilet were coming out of his nose and then set it on fire and then just like waited to obviously the geezer's going to wake up and then slapping himself in a face and then it was like some big joke you know like it was just but it was constant and have you ever watched the film Dead Man Shoes with Paddy Constantine so that's very similar like it was set in the 90s with all like you know psychedelic things, bongs everywhere he had a he had a bong that was shaped like a penis and it was like a big bong and then he'd get all the young girls to do the bong so it was so like such a phallic abuse every single section every single I never saw that when I was six years ago in previous he wasn't I didn't see that. He was just getting more deviant. He's getting more deviant the more we got away with. Yeah and then like later later down the line like in court and that he one of the things he said in

1:57:03court about me which really made everyone angry including like the jurors and that was that he grew very fond of me he never denied abuse of me because he knew he'd got away with it in the court like because he knew that the court case that's moving forward like that's fastward in it but basically yeah so I ended up there for like at least a year and a half but I ended up having a like a pregnancy scare because I was taking the pill because of my skin and because I wasn't so much drugs like it obviously wasn't working stuff and or I probably wasn't taking it every day and I ended up like passing some clots and the doctor said it probably had been pregnant and then I started having these horrible visions of a future with him with kids around me stuck with this PDF file. And this time he was tying her up. Yeah I think like there was it was all the time

1:58:10but there was some things that stuck out more like being strangled and and coming to realise in almost killed me very much like Mary's experience and that I might not survive if I didn't get away from him and just like the coming two and then him trying to like because I guess with Mary he was just like switched on her and made it all like his hair for and stuff I think because I was like a child he almost tried to explain it away like this is what adults do you know like this is what it's like you know and I remember him bringing a book down which as well I mentioned the book earlier and in the book it was like literally like a guy to sort of say domestic history and it was saying how it heightens the man's pleasure of the women's like frightened or scared or like because obviously you have muscles contract more and stuff he was like he knew exactly what he was doing. He had books about how to tie people safely or you know way they couldn't move out of it and so he undone it.

1:59:14And there's so much stuff about him. He is stuff himself so he's all pre-meditated everything that he's been doing. We found out we found out as well that he was selling girls schoolgirls underwear in the sun newspaper at the back of the newspaper. You know you used to get like in the in the classified section yeah you can it's these to say dirty things I mean you could probably go looking in the like British library because they have all the old papers that literally says like schoolgirls underwear and he would have nicked them from us like. I thought it was a lie so I asked him about it and I said you do know that people are saying this about you and I thought he was gonna deny it but he didn't he said yes I do. I'm sorry. And I was like what? I'm so brazen. And this is like the days before because now obviously you got the internet so this is before the internet and he had a video camera in the house and we know like one of the girls when he gave her loads of drugs and he filmed a puking up and gunning and then used to play it to a lot of her friends to shame her about it but we know that but we don't know whether like

2:00:19when we were like blindfolded and getting abused by him whether he filmed it because obviously he probably most mostly he did. He actually didn't take photos of me. Yeah. And it wasn't till afterwards I happened to see them and I knew that he had done it but he had taken them and hidden them away from me because he knew I was gonna I was gonna get them but then he would use that against me and threaten that people would see me and I was ashamed of my body I was young you know I wasn't confident or anything like that but yeah I'm a child then right now he'd go he'd go he'd get a jail sentence for just having that. Yeah I do. I do remember seeing me in the photos and knowing that I looked high I did not look so but I did not look happy and I did not look right and I managed to get those photos and I did I ripped them up and I burnt them and I did I got them in the end it took a long time. I remember them being there. I remember them. Yeah because me and because when he like smashed up the place obviously everyone was everywhere and then me and um

2:01:24um Stan would tidy up his whole house and stuff. Yeah he was really quite abused by him and yeah lots of people were I mean even my brother had a really bad time he got my brother on drugs he used to put him down and you know yeah it was awful lots lots of people was affected by him and not just in a sexual way. Was were any of the people affected of similar age to him or were young. No we're all young. Yeah yeah. Even the guys even there were like 21-22s probably at old is like like a puppet master when they were like my cousin knew him a years ago and she said to me um when he was in the pub one day was chatting some kids up or young girls and she went over she said you do rise the 14 years old because why don't talk until they're 16 and she told me that after she didn't what happened to me yeah because she didn't know about it yeah and then when it all came out that's what she remembers him saying. So Lauren actually went to the police when you were 21 didn't you? Yeah so I was 21 so I suppose it took me a long time.

2:02:25I always knew something wasn't right but as I got older I could I could I realised the extent of how severe it was and how wrong it was so yeah I think I was in I was 2021 and I walked into Watford police station and I went to report it but they literally just turned around to me and said well what evidence have you got and I didn't have the jewelry and I didn't have the photos and and I was like well I don't have any evidence it's just what I'm telling you and yeah they said to me well if you've got no evidence there's nothing we can do about it. So I left in tears and I just tried to get on with my life as as broken as I was and that was it and yeah and then one day and then one day so it was 2008 2008 I'd woken up and gone to work and opened up my business and sat there and opened I think it was my laptop at the time and I'd gone on Facebook and I'd seen a message from you and it literally just said I'm gonna go to the police about Martin Butler I know

2:03:28that you had a sexual relationship with him we'll he did this to me and it was like it was like a dream come true it was like a miracle I couldn't believe it. And I was so pleased about her reaction because I didn't know whether she'd be because at that point and I'd gone to the police ready at that point I think so yeah and they were like you know you need witnesses what have you got and I had loads of because I'd been with him for quite a long time I'd had like birthday cards valentines cards Christmas cards like just full on grooming things from yeah like I had jewelry I'd like bracelets and rings and everything that I'd just stashed away that I had a photograph of him that he'd given me with him signing to me on it on the back yeah I think I think I've had a hypnotherapy didn't you know I did yeah so that was 19 and what I didn't say drove you to the police station yeah what I didn't say in the documentary was funnily enough that morning that I'd gone off for my hypnotherapy because I was suffering with terrible anxiety I went on to have agrophobia for about

2:04:30two years of my life where I couldn't leave my home really dependent on alcohol and drugs and stuff like that and so in the morning before the hypnotherapy he actually I think he text me so we must have had phones then yeah or did he phone me and he actually wished me good luck and it wasn't until that one therapy session that I came out of there and I literally said I don't ever want to see you again and that was it yeah that was it and then I tried to process it for a little while before then went to the police and I've just totally missed that whole chapter of my life I was homeless all that time from the age of 16 I'll darling you had a rough ride you really when I got away from him and yeah when I finally got away from him I ended up living in Squatson I went moved in to squatten Oxbridge behind the skate ramps because some of my mates that had met with skater boys and some of them were homeless so I ended up like with them and then I found like the rave parties in East London and a lot of people lived in Squatson with very big raves and Squatson stuff and I ended

2:05:35up getting quite involved in that I'm taking a lot of drugs and at the same time I still do my artwork and stuff and I've got through college and ended up doing a degree when I was 21. Well done yeah in media and I was literally living in the squat doing that and you know all the people's and other rooms were like off the head on wow can I say when you got some of this? yeah and my drug was my work you know so I would just like I would get all because I started making films and I'd be like come on everyone are you performing my film and like making films with everyone that were off their heads and stuff and and getting through it you know but my trauma was just eating me up inside like I'd go from one relationship to the other like when I was 18 I went out to my big scariest looking guy that I could find and just yeah and then had like a long

2:06:36state of like really unhealthy relationships and stuff and then so yeah so then you went to the police yeah what I was 28 and I was pregnant with a baby that I would I lost yeah I had quite a few miscarriages in my life before I had my healthy ones but that baby was like my gardening in angel because I think the hormones from that pregnancy made me go to the police station because I was like how can I have a baby in this world when there's monsters like that out there and I just found myself and their boyfriend at the time was really supportive and he had been through a similar thing with his ex-girlfriend helping their child who had been abused by someone going through the court cases so I so he had already sort of like he he encouraged me to talk to him about it and stuff which was so good like he was like my guardian angel blesses so and so yeah I went ended up going to the police with him and they treated you quite well he hated the police as well he just

2:07:38sat outside with my dogs waiting for me to come out and they they listened to me they yeah they listened to me it was a better experience than I had to be so and then all of a sudden we had a court case pending so there was me and you another witness statement which was really quite helpful and then so in 2010 it was the court case and literally it was the day before and I've flown back because at that time now I was I lived in Turkey for a while I started moved moved as far as where as I could from him so I never even went back to my that area because of him so my whole family and that I became estranged from because he lived not far from them so like even Christmas and stuff I would just not go back and yeah and then I ended up moving to Turkey and so I flew to back to go to court I went into the hearing which I wasn't supposed to and the police were like oh my god to come in the office because he might be walking around you know so I sat in the office with them for the day and then they were like feeding me information and then they bloody came in and said

2:08:39I'm really sorry but they basically they'd relied on prior 2004 any historic cases was but you have to go to the police within a year and there was normally in the law for foot into 15 year old girls so so really if we didn't report it by the age of 15 or 16 it becomes relevant yeah yeah and I mean you've not even processed it to know what's been done to you because that because he because he drugged us and because the amount of drugs we were on the the CPS and police thought that we had a case because it's changes the power dynamics a little bit like some celebrity historic cases and stuff they can be loopholes I mean they can be like ways to get around it but they found out that in on the hearing they found out that he'd done a year in prison for dealing so they do it as because he's already been done for the drugs they can't be done for the drugs with us yeah they don't want to make the technicality the greatest one to the jury right because the jury they reckon it wouldn't be fair for him so it got thrown out yeah straight away and we were absolutely

2:09:42devastated and it had taken everything out of us leading up to that day and then it just went flat flat yeah and then we tried to then get on with our lives and we build our lives but I just remember trying to sleep for years after that court case just feeling like he just like and just trying to have another relationship even like you know like even years into a relationship like you could be having like a what's even feels like a healthy sex I've been sometime then you just freeze up you know you just totally freeze and it all comes back and you can't even explain or get the words out and yeah yeah just messes with everything completely a lot of the stuff that I learned under the age of 16 I carried through in my adult relationships and actually it was it was wrong and I was having like a really hard time with my the current relationship at the time and I had three children with them and basically when they I wanted to make it's the me two movement was going on and I was

2:10:42like and I and I've been going through a lot actually doing a lot of activism towards climate breakdown because you know I've got new kids in the world and I was like you know the world is messed up man I need to do what I can to help and I started like learning stuff I was going to all at the conferences with British petroleum and National History's gym getting like the Grenfell thing really got to me because I just want kids and seeing all the kids dying and I was just like really wanting to make changes and stuff and I just win the meat or saw me two thing as well and I was just like I'm gonna write my story I don't care anymore I don't care that's me you know I mean I'm just gonna say it like it is and then I just put it on to Facebook and then we can share it and then Lauren spotted it before I did I tell you I don't think she did I just did it really impulsively but at the same time I'd like done because I was studying I did didn't I did another I've got a master's in media and a master's in human rights law which I started studying then and I was just like using them law stuff and using the media skills and

2:11:46that so I shared it like five o'clock on Friday which is apparently the was at the time yeah so you've got three photos of him didn't you you wrote a description underneath yeah what was the title I wrote it wasn't it was like Martin bat la best piece oh oh Martin bat la best piece oh so is Pete I always and then yeah and then I and then I shared it and it was all the I drank all the groups where I grew up all the local chat groups and sell by cell groups and I'd just I'd been active in them groups for about a week to make myself a little bit the algorithm a little bit more positive because I was I was new to the groups and that and then I was like chatting on everyone's things like getting myself a little bit in there and then when I shared it it just took off and then one with the admin who who has messaging me over the years fair play to her and she had to keep deleting it because it goes against their things but then she

2:12:49was privately messaging gone I'm really sorry I have to delete it I've always I'll take down my group but share it again tomorrow I'll delete it after a few hours to not mean and then and then I'll be honest isn't it as well yeah and fair play to work because she had a feeling and she really knew about him and then it turned out that she actually had family on his road that he's living and she and to tell me where like people started telling me where he lived what he drove yeah what worked it down and then all of a sudden I had this huge responsibility of feeling like I was back with Lee stalking this guy I didn't even want to know about but I knew where he was and that was a big thing because I'd spent my whole life not knowing where he was I'd had my my exed had had a fire door hit him in the head once I arrived and we ended up in it was when Margaret Fatcher died we went to a party and we were in the hospital and he was passed out on the bed and I was sitting there thinking what about him and then suddenly this voice in the next bed in the curtain sounded a spit an image of Martin Martin's voice and he was very distinctive voice and I

2:13:56just froze and I just had a such a you know a post-traumatic attack a stress like anxiety as heck and I'd no one to talk to because my ex was passed out on the bed and I was just totally frozen and yeah that really sticks out to me as it was how much effect he still had on me you know that was in 2012 when I had that flash of him being so close to me and I don't even know whether it was him because I never thought we was putting that curtain I didn't want to know and but yeah so the post went viral yeah Scott shared 1,700 times in so many people made it we were flooded with messages but then yeah that brings us to you oh my god that brings me back to me then because then I I didn't know about it but your mom that don't live far from me which was bizarre knowing that we found out after that so obviously when you've been re-shared it your parents just shared it your family you shared it your brother lives just down the road actually from me in the same area just never

2:14:58bumped into a small is place we didn't know them no didn't know and then yeah I saw it for a mutual friends chief reposted it and some of them used to go to see at the time she didn't know about it and I just went so you were scrolling on Facebook I was working Monday yeah I'm helping her friend out in some some gardens gardening I've gone home and I just sat there gist of phone goes thing you know because at the time of Facebook it's quite new and you know mobile phones are quite new it's quite new for me really and I'm just getting into a little bit of Facebook in everyone does it yeah you get carried away with it you have to be very no no so I was just going through all my letters my my SMM messages and stuff like that and the mr phone call and then Facebook what's all this okay and it's suddenly it just came up and there it was it's post that you put up and my whole world just broke up seeing his face broke apart I'm like

2:15:59my god it's not just me I had taken this shame and I've worn it for at that point 30 years and said I was told a few people that I trusted in my life which is in my respect in my in my defense it probably helped the case because of it is what the the barista said that I dropped little bombshells along the road before detonating it in 2018 which is actually what happened well I dropped little bombshells yeah because he told and then detonated it off the scene of the post yeah what's that all about she gone diving you gone diving once yeah I had to I was my after another relationship but I've managed failed I had another relationship and I was diving trying to go diving in Cyprus and you have to have the face mask on so we was in there getting all your just your fins just norquil you wet so you know it's all exciting nothing really going on that I was thinking and um gonna happen no trauma I thought I'd

2:17:03put my past my past I buried it and forgetting about it certain things kept coming back like the fracture of the soul and I kept seeing things it's happened since the fracture of the soul like I've had it out of body experience I've had this frozen moments like a sleep paralysis sort of so put the mask on and as soon as I put it on I got a awful panic attack flashback and I went oh and I thought no no no you've been silly Mary you know just don't be stupid you're going to go feed the fish under the water it's going to be good times so we get there to the sea edge and you prime your your mask as you don't have to spit in it and put it over you and I put it on again the flashbacks here and I put the snorke of the regular in my mouth and I'm like oh my god I can't do this and it started going again and it was like a little silly film camera going and it was so quick that I like I took it all off took it off and it's what you're doing I said I can't do this I can't do it but at the time I my yeah my partner time went under the water he's

2:18:03gone in a you know fit of bubbles from the surface and I was just left there going oh god what I'm going to do I'm struggling to the point where I need to get out of this water but the instructors so no we're fine we do this I couldn't do it like taking it back to that night I had to snorkel across the top of the water I couldn't do it because every time I put it on and I went into the water the pressure around my face it gulped back all the PTSD of that moment you got a breathing nightmare again yeah it's even I know I'm seeing I got air even I know I've got it all but it's the it's a somatic memory enough the body that remembers the pressure around the face and knows the mouth that brings them that it brings your memory back into the present so he was you've got the witness didn't he so it was you seeing the post led to you going to the cops yes it did yeah okay but this is this is me having the most way before the post one of the witnesses he was described the emotions building up to go to the cops oh that was awful I had another friend that

2:19:07helped me can come on help me I can't I can't make the phone call I can't I don't know where to start so he did the first time it's it but you done it darling you done it and you got to where we got to at the stage I knew there was going to be something happening because I well I'd had loads of stories about him from the post it was just intense but I had a message from some random guy asking me what crime number was the one to use because in the meantime the police are giving me another crime number when I made the post because I was there was no crime number so that was really confused so I didn't know about her I didn't even know her name yeah but I knew that someone was wondering what crime number to take to the police so it gave me so it gave me a bit of hope from that so when my when my friend actually found the police for me because I said I can't I can't don't I can't do it I don't know where to start I don't know how to even get the first word out I just remember walking up and down a tree with a carp out and then they bought a plane close

2:20:11to the police room to the door a few days later to have the first interview which and then I sat and done that it was well done it was well done I must admit you know the neighbors didn't have the the police come right outside the house or things so it made me feel protected taken seriously and then I had to go to the police station actually to a proper interview and they said how do you want to do it do you want to do a written one or a video recorded an interview which is more powerful in the courts and I just thought okay I'll do the I've got nothing to hide I just do the video recorded one not realizing that actually he would see me as I was then not what I was 30 years previous with who my name then and how I looked then he'd see me in that life at that point with my colour hair my name now that was quite scary now and that was scary that he would know that I didn't realise that when I've done the video recorded interview I did it

2:21:11I mean I have to go on my own and I sat there through that oh I can't even remember doing it actually even expressing it all I can't remember what I said how I said it yeah I remember watching I don't remember it I had to watch it a few days before the court case itself had to go and what did you have to read what your evidence and I just remember sitting in and I my face was so wet tears and I'm like it's mad looking back on I still don't even remember what I said I can't think of what I said in that yeah it's mad looking back at our old video interviews because we were only 28 and back then we didn't even have the language for what he'd done to us yes and when you read in the when you're reading it we use words like Willie and I mean I even felt really young and immature at 28 30 when we were doing we were in the 9th hindsight it's like when you're 28 where are the children still really won't we yeah but even even even trying to explain it to complete strangers under the police about sexual things like what they do what he's done where he put it

2:22:14that sort of stuff and having to mention the words of his body it's you it's just it's such a disgusting thing that you have to say and then own up to that makes sense and say out loud and say out loud as if like you because you don't say you don't believe it's there as soon as you say you have to believe it's there because you know it's there and that whole that whole thing of shame that's whether the pellicote case has been so pivotal because even a wee wave darenone a minute before her yeah but the whole change shame must change sides thing was so poignant yeah it's really powerful yeah yeah so was he physically arrested then no he must have been I don't think he was arrested then I think you're probably brought in for questioning but that's fine Tim but it would have that's classes and arrests because he's a interview dundere and I don't know why he wasn't arrested I don't think because there was another victim that came forward wasn't there there was but they were trying to find him and that's how the another victim came forward from that point

2:23:16because they were they were looking for him but we we we waited we didn't even talk we mean melore and at this stage when we knew there was another victim mean loren went even a lot to talk five years now and where's the five years the court case took because of covid and then because of the court speaking and gathering all the evidence because I don't know I don't know when he was arrested I can't say that I don't know when that was I don't know when they spoke to him when they found him because it had to go to the cps and I've done my first thing to the cps and then they said there's nothing of evidence blah blah blah one single man sitting in his little room then I could have the right to review repeal and then the my police officer was actually trying it encouraged me to you can do this you know and I because I was actually known in therapy I thought yeah I'll do this and maybe I can do that so we appealed again and it got rejected again and it's like a it's like a blow after a blow you just feel like and it's and we weren't getting any updates like um

2:24:21braces they were grape crisis they were um they they were they were supposed to give us updates because as vulnerable witnesses we were supposed to get updates within two weeks of asking or say say he was arrested we're supposed to find that out like we're supposed to find out the movements of the case and um they um the charity grape crisis they literally took um they put complaints in about the police because they went up but we had three different police forces we had the terms valley and then we had the met police and in the court and then the court the court the court police because that's where it happened with Mary so there's three police forces actually tried to talk to each other and some don't talk properly and you know what like it's just the miscommunications and you know and we're you take so if it was the met police all the terms valley police he'd still be on the street yeah it's only because we had one particular cop that really took the seriously and um fair play to Sarah Davidson yeah he's the only cop in the world alone yeah and that was a carball car yeah he was so amazing we wouldn't be where we are

2:25:22today without her and obviously you for coming forward and it's funny because when I first went to the police I was my area they have to then um transfer me to a Devon Cornwall police because that's where the offense took place and I had a police officer there but she didn't seem to stay long and I don't know what happened when she just moved jobs and she was in between and then the next police officer came from Sarah and she stayed at mid to the end and she was absolutely to the point when she said every three months I'll contact you and she did yeah without and she made sure that I wasn't feeling vulnerable alone forgotten and that that is the only lifeline I had in those five years and then and the mere mere me and Lauren were told that we could be um character witnesses that we needed as character witnesses so we were re-interviewed in our homes they messed up my recording so after four hour interview they went back and realised that they hadn't recorded the sound oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh god and then I think named one of the the cops the thunderbirds because she was just like the

2:26:24way she got the car over high heels and they like rented some souped-top car to drive from Cornwall all the way to East London and then they got out like it was like a hot fuzz scene they were like really out of place and um yeah and then they messed up the recording button so I was just recap this sort of viewers then so both of you went to the cops nothing Murray you go to the cops and it's rejected and appealed and appealed and is it a third appealed that you want so yeah yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so I appealed the first appeal he got rejected I appealed again he got rejected the police appealed as well for the police doing it as well because I obviously had more information they knew we couldn't tell me anything at the time and I didn't know what it was we now know I think it was the other victim so they have put appealed and it got rejected so when I went to appeal on my third appeal I actually put a cover in it and to say that I think it's a bit of a bias opinion that you don't just believe me

2:27:26yet you don't find there's no evidence I think she should go to jury and then the specialist CPS guy jumped on and he features in the documentary which is very unusual to have a CPS in a documentary apparently so what happens next then what you want that appeal um well what happened he he then spent a long time making sure that there's no stone on turn he went through every single thing which was great and then he come back and said yeah he said there is enough evidence to have a realistic prospect of a conviction and then he got and I got an apology and then there was a trial and then and then it was gone then he then he got called into court for you're going to go you know this is what we're going to charge you with how'd you plead and he obviously stood there and said well I'm not going to get it obviously because he's so brazen got way bit for so long you know he was doing he thought and then went to the trial then and that was in 2022 was it 23 23 so how was the trial in 22 in 22 he was in front of the judge to say how'd you plead

2:28:31oh the hearing the hearing first and then he went to the trial yeah that was in the semi-real did you have to get up well no I was then worried about going to Cornwall and walking out of the call if they found him not guilty he walked out the same bit of paper so we so me and Lauren were there in person so frightened so I just ended up saying look I can't and I said not any don't you know he's going to know what I look like now and my name now which is completely different I don't want to be on the same bit of strip of him I won't know how my emotions would be I don't know how and he didn't know he had us I didn't know I didn't know about these two guys and I think for me and Laura where has it got thrown out in 2010 when this came about again we didn't want to lose this opportunity and we wanted to look him in the face you know the options is to testify so yeah so in 2023 with Mary's court case when we were the witness statements we were given the witness statements we we said that we wanted to stand up and do it in front of him actually all the day we didn't know we were all but she in the beginning your face as well

2:29:35and I don't think we really like how I could do it man and as soon as I got to the stand I just remember we were going to say like oh my god I'm still glad we done it I'm glad that we you know it was maybe a bit more fresh for you pretend you yourself you know we come to the sentence in which was too much they once I did I've met you though that's all of it how did it feel when the the guilty verdict my god oh my god it didn't feel real to me you know what we were doing you know what we were doing it was me you and mom and we weren't allowed to show yeah that's all that bit so it just felt like the expressions the emotions were building up behind your skin like and now literally we were like yeah constantly we were being told off constantly about even pulling funny faces and I'm really expressive especially if I don't agree with everything because you're hearing a lot of lies said about you it is really hard to just and you're just like but like but we stood up we stood up that day didn't we and we held hand but we all put our heads down because we didn't know whether it was going to be sad or happy and the moment we heard that guilty we clenched each other's hand so tight and just wanted to

2:30:41jump for joy but we couldn't but oh my god it was unreal I wasn't going I was miles away back at home actually I took the morning out I got up it's like it's all in my book covering it down because it's my journey about ever thinking my book so it's all in there but the morning I got up I was I was just so all emotions all over the place that's first slamming into me all the time so we went out my you my friends went out for a walk with the dogs I thought we just got to go out I got to get out I can't sit still I can't sit still it's like my my head's like this because I know people are going to be talking about me all day long all week long and the last day was a worst and by them we knew your name but then we knew your name and I was just like when I could finally breathe again because like the security app's going to get me a paper bag and everything I was literally I had the juke's like no I can't I the journalist the journalist outside thought that he'd got not guilty because of my reaction and the security the call course was so up and down one minute we thought oh surely he's going to get a call for this but then the next day his case seemed better and we left that day thinking oh my god he's going to go out for fun when I could finally

2:31:43talk I was like going to Sarah the Sarah Corp I was like have you told her yeah have you told that mean in marriage she's phoned me and I was waiting for my phone to go off she told me on the phone and I was like oh my god it's her it's just it and then when she told me I just laps forward on my oh my god I can't believe it but it's just still the realisation it took you took a few minutes it's all like go what's just happened did it is it really is it real is it real is is all over is all this fear I can put behind me and my friend can't just say we finally met we finally met on my 40 second birthday so it was a week later because I was on a one day it was on a Monday yeah I went through Facebook to try and find you to message you to say because then Sarah told me that they just stood as a character witnesses but I didn't know about and then and I missed you to do didn't I to say well thank you so much for standing up behind me and blah blah blah because I was content alone I'm it was not so she gave me a number I went

2:32:47hi Lauren it's Mary who are you so I went oh my god I'm like I'm my god another one so then I realized there was three we we already felt so much love and we were connected before we even met you and I remember we was we was in King's Cross when we met and you came over and we were just in tears we just smothered Mary we were a cuddler and we were crying and then we sat in a pub and we just talked and held hands and this is soul connection you get when you know you can look at somebody else's face and know that they know exactly that pain that feeling that PTSD that trauma all those triggers they're there in your eyes and you can't deny it so we are yeah it's beautiful you've got such a bum braid of such a dry now it's like I could just look and sometimes I text now don't I I just have to take up the blue and it's like you've had a bad day oh I've got a bad time it's bizarre every way where is literally talking to sleep before and I've liked yeah I sleep problems and that says literally I've gone see but she's like no did you just fall asleep no we call out what a group of sauce yeah did you all meet before the sentence in

2:33:55yeah and then we went together you all went to the same time we said even longer line of us all was that like amazing crazy because he wasn't out then did you know kind of like the range he was facing we didn't know whether he was going to get two years we would have been happy with anything nothing was ever going to be enough but you know he could have got three years but to get the years that he got we were very lucky we're going to describe it what you what you're seeing in again so there was my mum my dad he tells his chair away from us this time okay yeah he hadn't done that before and so we was all in the line and we all stood up again and we was all holding hands and again I didn't know who's hands to hold I wanted to hold everyone's but I had my mum my dad before we went in though because it's the first time I'd actually going there to see him and the girl was going ahead of me because I was like we've done it already like in February this is now in April we can see you again we don't care you're a worm yeah but I was like oh my god there's still that beast that monster in my brain we already knew the balls in the first door and I just couldn't I my legs were like jelly I I collapse and the animals I can't do I can't go

2:34:58through it and then the the foreman come up yeah because that's the first time I was facing them was we yeah and I just thought that's that he's not in there he can't just I can't walk through a door not know where his eyes are yeah he's the beast in the dark it's the the sand man something in your dreams so and because I knew he wasn't in the room I knew I could go in but compose myself sit down hold strength and then see him we had you so we had um so like and then two years on from that last year we had we Mary was contacted by the cops for another victim had come forward and we didn't know anything about it yeah and I was then used to we went to that court case and Mary wasn't allowed in there no it wasn't allowed in there but I was allowed to sit in this place where you can see us so we need to explain to the viewers then the sent how many sentences he got say he's got first sentence came down how did you feel about that oh it's fantastic when they're saying that I feel really good about that we were lucky so yeah

2:35:58we were lucky he could have got an awful lot but then just before the maximum sentence he could have got and he got it yeah and then yeah but just before this next victim that we found out about her we found out that his sentence could be reduced by like 50% so we and he'd already done two years at that point so we were like what he could apply for open prison in four or four years yeah because they said after 11 years they gave him they said um after three quarters you can leave on unconditional license which means just left with a tag unless he was put in front of the judge so that's seven years three months we worked out and then he could just leave prison so this next guy and then he said unless he's put in front of the judge then he's got also after fully 11 years yeah unless he gets another sentence on top of that but he did another 11 years the other girl comes in and he gets another 11 for them yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah 22 years he wanted to actually give him 13 for that but he listened it because he said that them two years will run concurrently yeah consecutively or concurrently yeah they said that

2:37:00right yeah yeah but it's countless as a level what's he got left to serve now he calculates it doesn't she got another letter literally this week yeah I got another letter from because I I reduced and everyone sentences they are reduced sentence for a while yeah what are people in prison for Facebook posts oh yeah there's yeah exactly but they said um I've got a letter to say that they can be reducing certain you know perpetrators and obviously with my case um he's in there because of my case and I did sign that um with the is um I think they call them now but a bit like the probation services basically and they let me know and I said yes I want to know if you lose prison I want to know if you go to the hospital or whichever comes out in the box I need to know I have family I have these girls to protect I want to know what the hair was going on I can't know where he is not allowed that sort of access but then they will let me know sometimes always living prison for this for medical reasons I go great isn't he is in that hospital that hospital that hospital because I have to visit them the next month no great I mean it's like

2:38:04I'm walked down the corridor not seeing change to a guard where I can poke his eyes out just trick him out so um so yeah we did really well we got justice skills you know there's so many people out there that just don't get justice and I know we had to wait 25 years also I mean Lauren never got justice up for our own cases but we got justice because Mary and the next break lady and the next break woman the letter I got yes two days ago was they they might be reducing sentences for certain perpetrators don't want to freeze about that do you I want known to end of August with a he is on that list and everything is doing podcasts like this will inspire other survivors to speak out as well yeah I'm just gonna see this we do know there was more out there we've got heard through the pipelines where people have said oh I know some just who knows someone that has been abused by him I don't come to me go straight to the police and just and it's never too late because Mary's case has literally been 1988 and she's still got justice so imagine like if there's months to still out there that you think oh you know it's not worth it I

2:39:08don't want all the shambles onto me it's like man your children will you'll be a hero like because you're literally making the world safer and making other because there'll be there'll be like and people like abusers now they're at like that and by asking justice they might stop them because they're gonna be scared that in 30 years time when they're all playing happy families they're gonna get a knock at the door and you know what the power of social media like if you're gonna if you're gonna be a monster you you'll also be careful what the public can do to you we can name and Shane you now where we we couldn't when we was 21 when we went to the police like you know we're gonna name and shame as many as we can and back in the day he used the fact that he'd lost a brother for the oh look at me I'm so sad to reel the people in to give them look I need help I need support yeah I lost a sister but I didn't turn into a beast no I have the channel forget involved um guardian newspaper um I've one of my eight one of my friends that covered quite a little of our activism prior to that and I trusted her because there wasn't many journalists that we trusted

2:40:11so she got invited to when we met Mary yeah she didn't know what it's so I'm very drinking me she's from the garden but it's just she was just like you must be joking also one so she wanted to do so she wanted to do the newspaper article on us so we had a lovely photo of us please standing together you should get out they didn't press your nose he said he don't have to be in it you can turn your face around no name I said no no if you're standing here I'm standing with you we're powerful and that's how it's just and then we're all started yeah then we're on stefs pat lunch for ten minutes so after the news paper after the news paper went out that kind of blew up a bit and we have lots of people approach we had them here eat and sit and like productions like an old female people wouldn't make a podcast but it was it was quite fresh for us so we didn't want to commit to too much after all of the court cases we needed to heal for a little bit really didn't we and that took a long time so we were approached by the TV production company by a few but

2:41:12yet took a couple of years to actually get to and you know what it's good that we waited because the original producer actually twisted what she wanted to do a little bit on a made us really uncomfortable she wanted to do a psychological trauma and I was like hang on this doesn't sound what we want like we want it to be like us driven like we were very happy with the documentary but how do you get the sound so well is the producer of documentary and I'll tell you what even all the way through it because I just don't have much trust for people I did sort of trust her but once we see sorry they haven't done amazing done such a great job and she did it already authentically exactly how we needed it there's only so much that you can put in a documentary or even in a podcast because there's so much to all the one-hand or there's a lot more nastiness that we've not even touched on you know so we'll remember a million more things yeah so I'd urge you if you was to watch the documentary do you know this man on channel four how did you feel watching it Jen it was heartbreaking yeah but I'm glad he got the justice it was some sort of justice in my eyes that wasn't long enough it's not

2:42:17not enough actually there's just so many victims out there there's not many of my friends that hadn't gone through something similar even as a child yeah it's like especially because I lived home because I was living in the homeless squirts until I bought an arrow boat in 2005 I was living in squirts for about eight years and then even when I bought my boat my life was pretty much half 50-50 in squirts and most of the people that you find the homeless have been through in OCA like decent stuff and like so it's just too many people and then and so many people have lost to drugs and stuff because of their lifestyle because they've been masking the pain from being abused you know so for me it's really like a revelation that I've managed to get to the age I am now and to have achieved justice and stuff it feels like a huge big thing for the next generations to you know because we want to do better don't we for our children like we don't want them to go through these battles to try and be believed but we've gone through the things we've gone for so our children don't have to I hate yeah yeah yeah kind of generational traumas and

2:43:17yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah a lot of people have asked me what do you think his what do you think um is his is his the right rule justice of it on it so well out of all of it how would he really be punished now yeah prison you know 22 years great punishment is he wears his own shame and everyone knows what he is good luck to him if he comes down because because he's hidden it from 70 people he's got away with it and he would hide it continuously until someone stopped him there's no way he's no power ever you know I was in 88 the other victim was two years after me and then after that the four years after that other victim was these two girls so mine was five months I don't know when the other victim was in two years after mine but you know in the film labyrinth when she goes you have no power of me you know the go into the go the gobbling king then she goes do you have no power of me and then the whole world just melts and she's like yes

2:44:22and there's a lot of bad things happening to these people behind bars as well or won't encourage that I'm gonna ask you a question and I know your time is up um okay so do you wave your anonymity and give us permission to publish this yes a hundred percent a hundred percent two way of you so for the viewers who've been watching this then for three hours now do you guys have anything you'd like to take inclusion to the viewers and there's always a lot of survivors in the community watching these as well yeah reach out to people talk to people you will be believed yeah you know don't don't let don't let shame get in the way don't let family members saying because at the end of the day like they might have felt their pressures on themselves because normally when you do open up you find that they've got their own stories and they didn't want to face them which is why they're trying to silence you but we need to stop that and break the chains now because we need to do that as well as you're doing this. Let me show you the monsters where their own shame secondly and I will put this is if you find it hard to speak and it is really hard start writing it start writing it down I'll collect a diary and then one day you'll just find the strength and you give it to someone say please read this I can't tell you but

2:45:24I want you to read it walk out the room let them read it this is how my mum got to read it in the newspaper because you never knew I just said mum I've got to tell you how the newspaper and the way to say you know and I came back in but she read it and reflectively said yeah very brave and it's I don't feel it I still don't feel it but it's the only way I could express it to people that I love so much yeah and don't give them power by being silent if you you know if you're silent then it unfortunately gives them power so if you feel comfortable enough you know or find it in you to speak to speak and I always believe that if they've if a perpetrator will do it once they will do it more yeah they've got like 100 other victims out there yeah and we're going to finish with the poem or I'll resolve a thread I would urge people to support me or even get the book link in description box and if you remember earlier in the podcast near deaf experience the intensity of that not many people go for life and

2:46:25get that close and here's the poem that Murray wrote about that so the silver thread I have seen it a line of light stretching from my body holding me to this world when I wanted to let go it pulled me back when I thought I had died it kept me alive the silver thread is real it is survival it is hope it is why I am still here oh my god I just got goosebumps reading it I'm looking for an agent for my book I finished it on Friday after 25 years of writing it yeah it's called the blues and all of the guest socials however you want to be contacted we'll put all that in the description box as well viewers so please support what they're doing so if anyone wants my agent package

2:47:28if you enjoyed this podcast you want to do a deep dive one of the biggest monsters ever harbored by the entertainment industry then we've got two several books to recommend to you the first one is surviving Savile Jim fixed it for me by Sheila Ann Terry Bailey one of our podcast guests you missed that one check it out here's the description as Jimmy Savile Park his Rolls Royce outside of the big old stately home that was Dunkroft approved school the teenage girls flocked to the door to welcome the celebrity given his own bedroom and free reign of the premises Savile would enter the girls bedrooms while they were undressing and also manipulate them into further beep in his luxury vehicle a police investigation confirmed that 22 Dunkroft girls were beeped the head mistress had disregarded their claims and categorized the girls as delinquents in this memoir ex Dunkroft attendee in survivor of Savile Sheila tells her harrowing story for the first time who led to 42-year-old

2:48:33man staying at home with 14 15 and 16 year old girls is one of the many questions that Sheila raises Sheila details the methods that Savile employed to prey on her and the other school girls and she takes us through the heartbreaking decades of unresolved trauma that she personally suffered as a result of Savile's monstrous actions Sheila honestly so brave in the podcast we did with her and please support her check this book out link will be in the description box Savile actually called Dunkroft Girls School his PDF file sweet shop now disgusting is that all right so the second Savile book we could recommend is Untouchable Jimmy Savile by me and I'll read the description who was Jimmy Savile more than anything he was a list of contradictions he was a practicing Catholic who beeped young boys and girls and had beep with corpses he was a godfaring believer who

2:49:36participated in satanic rituals he was an unprecedentedly generous charity fundraiser who was too tight to buy his own meals he was a friend of princes and dukes who ate bacon sandwiches at his local greasy spoon he was a peace activist who tied up trouble makers in his nightclubs and had them brutally beaten he was a furry godfather who hated children grew his relationships with the royal family prime minister Margaret Fatcher and Pope John Paul who gave him a papal nighthood Savile built a power base that insulated him from prosecution raised the heights of fame by the BBC this evil genius prayed on the Ungan vulnerable for over five decades untouchable Jimmy Savile demolishes the mainstream media narratives portrayed in Netflix's Jimmy Savile a British horror story and the BBC's The Recording to show that Savile's behavior was enabled by the most powerful members of the establishment for whom he was a fixer and a procurer so links for both books will be in the

2:50:42description box harrowing reads nothing is censored in the books no beep words left out so if you want to support the channel check those books out thank you for watching this podcast cheers