Mark Winger: When the American Dream Turned Deadly Pt. 2

0:00Hi everyone, it's Vanessa Richardson. Before today's episode, I want to tell you about another Crime House show, Murder True Crime Stories. Join Carter Roy every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday as he explores history's most notorious murders like you've never heard before. Follow Murder True Crime Stories, available wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Crime House. For some people growing up in a big family means a lot of noise, chaos, and very little privacy. But it can also mean a home filled with happiness, love, and traditions. For Mark Winger, that was the kind of life he wanted to create for himself. He dreamed of a successful career, a loving wife, and a house full of children. But when his wife's infertility threatened that vision, Mark started having second thoughts.

1:02And rather than accept that his perfect life might not unfold the way he'd hoped, Mark found another way to get what he wanted to destroy his own family. The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is serial killers and murderous minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson. And I'm forensic psychologist, Dr. Tristan Engels. Every Monday and Thursday we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer. Crime House exists because of listeners like you. One even more, join Crime House Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday completely ad-free. No waiting three days for part two, plus Crime House bonus episodes every month.

2:06To join, go to CrimeHousePlus.com. Or if you listen on Apple podcasts, tap Try Free at the top of the serial killers and murderous minds page. Before we get started, be advised that this episode contains discussion of sex, murder, mutilation, and suicide. So please listen with care. Today we conclude our deep dive on Mark Winger, the all-American family man with a violent obsession with his future. Mark's dreams seemed wholesome on the outside, but they caused him to descend into darkness and stage a gruesome murder that took years to untangle. As Vanessa goes through the story, I'll be talking about things like how some violent offenders compartmentalize their crimes in order to appear non-threatening, why some offenders play the victim, and what happens when a killer's carefully constructed alter ego collapses. And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

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5:15He was married to his wife, Donna, and they had recently adopted a baby girl they named Bailey, who was now three months old. On the outside, the small family was settling into a happy new chapter in life. But Mark was hiding a dark secret. He was having an affair with one of Donna's closest friends, Diane Schultz, and he wanted out of the marriage. Not only that, but Donna wasn't able to become pregnant on her own, and Mark wanted lots of kids. So if he stayed with her, he'd have to sacrifice that dream. However, instead of asking for a divorce, Mark did something unthinkable. On August 29, 1995, at around 430 that afternoon, Mark invited a man named Roger Harrington over. Roger was a shuttle driver who'd taken Donna home from the airport six days earlier. During that ride, he'd behaved strangely, and it had scared Donna. When Mark heard about the encounter, he realized Roger could be beneficial to him, so he decided to frame Roger for Donna's murder.

6:17Almost as soon as Roger walked through the door, Mark pulled out a gun and shot him in the head. When Donna heard the commotion, she set Bailey down and hurried toward the dining room. She was in complete shock when she saw Roger laying on their dining room floor in a pool of blood. And before she knew it, Mark dropped the gun, picked up a hammer, and attacked her. He struck Donna no fewer than seven times in the head. Then left her for dead. Getting this and carrying it out are two different things. Sometimes people can fantasize about violence or develop an elaborate plan like this and then become overwhelmed in the moment when the reality of what they're doing actually hits them and then it snaps them out of it. But not Mark, apparently, because seeing Donna would have been that moment, but it wasn't, because he was so committed to his goal, to his endgame that it outweighed everything else. And speaking of commitment, once he'd killed Roger or rather executed him, there's really

7:18no going back. He really is committed to his plan in ways he wasn't before at that moment. If he did abandon his plan now, then he has the consequences of Roger's death without the possibility of ever getting his main objective, which is Donna. He's gone too far now. I also think that given Mark has no prior history of violence, he may have had some exposure to it while he was in the military that is worth considering. Do you think someone like Mark hides the fact that they're good at compartmentalizing and calculating? Yes, because often the idea is to manipulate or deceive people. And right now, Mark is having an affair with his wife's friend and had been plotting to kill his wife at the same time. In order to make sure that she was unaware of both of those things, he had to compartmentalize. He had to continue performing as the trustworthy, loving, and dutiful husband and father, otherwise Donna may have suspected something, and that could potentially threaten his ultimate goal. Mark's brutal attack on his wife was designed to make it seem like an intruder, Roger,

8:23had killed her out of blind rage. Now, he had to convince the authorities that's what happened. While Roger and Donna lay on the floor, Mark dialed 911 and he quickly got into character. He screamed for help, telling the operator that his wife had been attacked. He said he'd shot the attacker, but that he had no idea who the man was. Mark begged for them to send help. Then he told the operator he could hear his baby crying. He dropped the phone and the operator remained on the line. They listened carefully to see if Mark might get a response from Donna, but instead they heard a man's painful groan. It was Roger. He was still alive. He quickly realized that the operator could hear Roger, so he scrambled for the phone and disconnected the call. He then picked up his gun and shot Roger a second time in the head. When police and paramedics arrived at the grisly scene, Mark was covered in blood and appeared completely frantic, playing the part of a husband who had just walked in on an unthinkable attack.

9:25While Medics tended to the victims, the police asked Mark what happened. He told them he'd been exercising on the treadmill in the basement of their ranch-style home when he heard a noise upstairs. When he went to investigate, he first checked the master bedroom where he found Bailey on the bed alone. According to Mark, that's when he knew something was very wrong, so he grabbed his gun from the nightstand and ran to the dining room where he claimed he saw a man bludgeoning Donna. Mark said he shot the man, then called for help. After giving his statement, Mark repeatedly asked the police whether they had figured out who the attacker was. Officers quickly identified Roger using the wallet he'd been carrying, but they didn't tell Mark who he was. So eventually, Mark asked them directly if the man's name was Roger. When Mark posed that question, the police became suspicious. They realized he might have known more than he initially led on. Mark seemed to know what they were thinking because he immediately explained that Roger

10:25was an airport shuttle driver who'd frightened Donna during a ride home the week before. He claimed Roger had become obsessed with her and even called the house behaving like a stalker. Then Mark said he had something to show the officers. Donna's own handwritten account of what had happened during the ride. He showed investigators the note that detailed her interaction with Roger and they were shocked. Donna had recorded her account of their conversation, including his thoughts of killing and mutilating people. The officers understood why Mark thought Roger was capable of murdering Donna. There are just so many aspects of this that are disturbing. Starting with the fact that Donna's experience with Roger was genuinely frightening to her and Mark decided to exploit that. And having her write everything out could have amplified her fear even further. She's thinking this is being done as a safeguard for her when in reality, Mark intends to use it to support her own murder. In this scenario, Mark has manipulated, deceived and used both his wife and Roger for his own

11:30personal game. And now he's attempting to do the same thing with law enforcement. He's essentially directing everyone toward the conclusion that he wants them to reach. There's something particularly callous about taking the words of his murdered wife, words that she wrote because she was genuinely afraid and believed her husband was trying to protect her, words that he coerced her into writing and using them to help tell his lie for him. Do you think having Donna write the account made Mark feel more confident that police would accept his version of events? Absolutely. I mentioned this in episode one, but he needed to document it somehow in order to make this narrative more believable. Otherwise, it would be like he just manufactured it out of thin air for police. Documentation is very strong. It's evidence, and this was very strategic and calculated. Last year, she was rushed to the hospital. Donna's note quickly became an integral piece of evidence, as you just said, Dr. Engels. Doctors tried to save both her and Roger, but their injuries were too severe.

12:32Shortly after arriving at the hospital, they were each pronounced dead. Almost immediately, Mark stepped into the role of grieving husband and father. As the police continued working the scene, he called his rabbi and some friends to come to the house. He surrounded himself with people who believed they were comforting a man in crisis. Everyone believed Mark's story, including the police. It wasn't just Donna's note that convinced them. Inside Roger's car, officers found a note he had written on the back of a bank deposit slip. Mark Winger's name, his address, and the time he was due there, 4.30 pm. In reality, it was a reminder of the meeting Mark had arranged with Roger that afternoon, but investigators wondered if it was further evidence that Roger had been stalking the wingers and planning an attack. From there, investigators also found a knife and a tire iron inside Roger's vehicle, which seemed to support their theory. And when they learned that Roger had been charged in 1990 with battery against his wife,

13:35they became even more convinced. But the police did find a couple things odd. To start, Roger had carried a pack of cigarettes and a coffee mug inside the home, which didn't seem like typical behavior for this kind of planned violent attack. On top of that, Mark said the hammer used to kill Donna belonged to him. To them, it didn't make sense why Roger would leave his own weapons in his car and instead search for one inside the wingers house. But Mark had an explanation. He claimed he'd taken the hammer out earlier because Donna had asked him to hang a hat rack. He had to be satisfied with the police. The lead detective even knew Roger personally and he knew him as, quote, a very volatile type suspect. That made it easier for him to believe Roger had snapped and the case was closed in just 48 hours. But Mark knew he still had loose ends to tie up because on multiple occasions, he told his mistress, Deanne, that he wanted Donna to die so they could be together without losing

14:37Bailey, which meant if the police ever spoke to Deanne, she might tell them that Mark not only had a motive to kill his own wife, but that he'd premeditated it. So in the hours following the murders, Mark contacted Deanne and told her not to speak with the police or reveal their affair to anyone. He also called Roger's work asking to speak with him and asking his boss for his personal number. I'm seated. This is not the only loose end that he potentially has to worry about. That said, this is yet another example of Mark's confidence in his belief that he can control other people's behavior. But that confidence, at least with Deanne, didn't just come out of nowhere. It was built. First, look at everything that's happened between them. He approached her knowing that she was unhappy in her marriage. So he had information and he used that. And then they began confiding in each other. They started an affair. They discussed leaving their spouses and then he gradually introduced her to the idea of killing Donna and apparently mutilating people.

15:40And despite this, Deanne remained in the relationship, which is how Mark has been getting feedback about what she will tolerate from him and what her loyalty to him is. And now he has potential leverage too. Because if she admits to the affair, then she exposes herself, which potentially affects her own marriage, and admitting that she knew about his plans and did nothing. And Mark has been able to control the relationship for a while, so it wouldn't be surprising if he believed that he could control her behavior too right now. So he may be counting on her fear of exposure or her guilt or her feelings for him, but the fact that he feels the need to call her and explicitly tell her not to say anything also tells us that Mark recognizes the limits of that control or the risks involved, otherwise he wouldn't feel the need to make that call. Deanne could threaten his entire story and he knows that. So he may feel confident, but he's also managing a very real threat right now to his entire plan. Mark was convincing.

16:41Deanne agreed to do as he told her, and with that, Mark believed he had committed the perfect crime. No one suspected he was the one truly responsible for the horrific double murder. Now he felt he was free to build the life he wanted. But Mark had no idea how his past would later come back to haunt him. The best clothing investments are the ones you reach for day after day, and that is Quince's whole specialty. They craft elevated staples from top-tier materials, including washable silk, organic cotton, and pure 100% Mongolian cashmere, starting at just $50 their cashmere sweaters are smooth, long-lasting, and remarkably affordable. My personal holy grail is their 100% European linen maxi skirt in classic minigame. It fits perfectly. It feels amazing and it looks tailor-made for me. Alongside denim, Quince offers sleek leather bags, cashmere accessories, and 14-karat

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19:43And 98% of them take insurance. Clients with insurance pay $20 on average, and most people find their match on their first try. Get started now at helloalma.com. That's helloalma.com. By the fall of 1995, 32-year-old Mark Winger had brutally murdered his wife, Donna, then framed an innocent man, Roger Harrington. And Mark seemed to have gotten away with it. To everyone around him, he wasn't a killer. He was a grieving widower, left to raise his three-month-old daughter Bailey alone. And he appeared to be struggling. But there was one person who knew there was more to the story. Mark's affair with Diane continued after the murders, but it remained a secret. They both knew how suspicious it would look if people learned they were together. And as the weeks passed, the relationship became increasingly strained. Diane struggled with the weight of what had happened. Her best friend was dead. And while she didn't know for a fact that Mark was the real killer, she may have suspected

20:46it. Not to mention, she'd betrayed Donna before her death. However, as Diane battled herself internally, Mark wasn't willing to be there for her. And he could sense that if he pushed her to move on from Donna's death, she might turn on him and reveal everything she knew. So eventually, Mark ended things with Diane. Almost as soon as she was out of his life, another woman entered it. Mark and Donna's family suggested that he hire someone to help him raise Bailey. So he started looking for a live-in nanny. And in January of 1996, just five months after killing Donna, he hired a 23-year-old recent college graduate named Rebecca Sommick. Rebecca bonded with Bailey instantly. She was exactly the kind of caretaker Mark had hoped for. And pretty soon, he started having other ideas about Rebecca as well. He'd been instantly attracted to her. And not long after she started working for him, Mark told Rebecca that he believed she

21:48was an angel sent by Donna. Someone God had placed in their lives to help him and Bailey heal and make their family whole again. And there, Mark opened up to Rebecca about his supposed grief and the life he claimed had been stolen from him. Rebecca felt close to Mark, and that closeness eventually turned into something more, when Mark made sexual advances toward Rebecca and she reciprocated. However, even though Rebecca was interested in Mark, she still questioned how he could be ready to move on so quickly after Donna's death. But Mark told her that because his marriage to Donna had been so happy and fulfilling, it was only natural that he would want that kind of partnership again. To Rebecca, his explanation made sense. We're seeing a familiar pattern. Mark sees the utility in Rebecca, and once again, we see this gradual blurring of boundaries. He begins with confiding, seeing what is tolerated, creating emotional intimacy, and then pushes

22:48those boundaries until romantic or sexual relationship happens. And there's something particularly coercive about this dynamic with Rebecca. She's 23 years old, she's his employee, and she's been hired to help care for his daughter. So there's already a power imbalance. And then he begins confiding in her about his so-called grief and the loss of his wife. That could start making Rebecca feel like she's emotionally responsible for his family, too. This framing might have caused her to view them as vulnerable, fragile, or in need of her support, especially Mark. And that can make boundaries much harder to recognize for her. And on top of which, her livelihood depends on this relationship, too, which makes it even harder to assert boundaries in this dynamic. That's why this is manipulative. Mark is using performative grief and vulnerability to create emotional intimacy with her, and she may not even recognize how much the relationship is changing as it's happening. And we've seen Mark do the same with Diane.

23:49He used their shared marital problems to establish intimacy, and here the vulnerability is different, but the relational progression is similar. Do you think Mark's relationship suggests a deeper pathological need to control the women in his life? I think control is definitely a part of it. I don't think that he wants power over women necessarily, but this goes back to what we talked about in episode one from when he was younger. Mark seems to identify what he wants, and then he organizes his behavior around getting it. And when another person is involved in that goal, he appears willing to influence or manipulate them to keep things moving in the direction he wants. He doesn't seem to adjust his goals to accommodate those people. He adjusts the people, and the circumstances around him to accommodate what he wants, and that clearly includes the women in his life. While Mark definitely seemed to know how to gain people's trust quickly, and Rebecca wasn't the only person who was taking advantage of either.

24:50Around the same time, Mark filed a civil lawsuit against Roger Harrington's employer, Bart Transportation, for wrongful death. In an attempt to reinforce his own story, Mark presented himself as a surviving victim, and argued that Roger's employer should be held financially responsible for what happened. While the lawsuit slowly worked its way through the legal system, Mark's personal life moved much faster. By the spring of 1996, Rebecca became pregnant with Mark's child. Mark was thrilled by the news, but Rebecca was shocked. Mark had told her he couldn't have children, so they weren't careful about contraception. In reality, Mark had lied, taking Donna's infertility and claiming it as his own. Still, he was thrilled with the news of having his first biological child, which ultimately made Rebecca happy, too. He immediately started talking about marriage and moving to a new house, but there was one major difference between Mark and Rebecca.

25:50He was Jewish, and she was Christian. Judaism had been an important part of Mark's life to this point, but now, with Rebecca pregnant and a new family within reach, he suddenly claimed he was willing to leave it behind, convert to Christianity, and raise their children in a Christian home. His sudden rejection of Judaism shocked the people closest to him. Mark started describing the religion as too difficult and unforgiving, and when his rabbi asked him what exactly he believed he needed forgiveness for, Mark didn't answer. If we recall from Mark's childhood, he looked up to his father, and there was nothing wrong with that. We all have childhood heroes and inspirations. It's ordinarily a healthy thing to have an inspiration and even aspirations, but with Mark, he emulated his father and that likely came with pressure and expectations, to the extent that he followed exactly in his footsteps. He studied the same things. He wanted the same big family, and again, on its own, there's nothing inherently wrong

26:51with that. But when it's accompanied by the behaviors we've been outlying and it's interfering with his ability to form his own identity, then it becomes a concern. Mark has been so fixated on establishing a similar or exact life as the one his father emulated to the extent that when he has a goal in mind, he organizes his behavior around it, and he uses the people in his life to meet that goal. He engages in deception, manipulation, coercion, for example, pretending to be infertile to achieve a biological child is taking away Rebecca's autonomy and consent with that decision. And he has already murdered two people to get what he wants. And now we are seeing that he is willing to change values for a goal, which makes you question if they were ever core values of his to begin with or values that were pre-constructed for him once he thought he had to have, which brings me back to identity. Does he have an identity that's his or does he organize around an identity that gets him what he wants?

27:52Do you think the fact that Mark described Judaism as unforgiving suggests he was maybe searching for some kind of escape from guilt? And I'm just guessing here, if so, do you think this also suggests there was some part of Mark that understood the moral weight of what he'd done? It's possible. It is also possible that he might have felt he needed to find a religion that he felt he could now belong in given what he had done. But I also think it's equally possible that he was trying to find a justification for why he was leaving it in the first place. If he felt he had to leave in order to accomplish this goal of having a family with Rebecca, then he needed to find fault with it to make that decision seem justified to the people in his life who had questioned him over it, because they've always known him as being part of the Jewish faith. And calling it unforgiving is something that would accomplish that. It reframes his decision. So instead of Mark having to explain why he suddenly is leaving his faith, which has seemingly been so important to him all of his life, he made his faith the problem.

28:57If Mark did feel guilt over what he'd done, he didn't let it stop him from moving on. Eventually, he and Rebecca eloped during a trip to Hawaii. Mark felt like he was finally on his way to that big family he'd always imagined. And Rebecca thought she'd finally found her prince charming, but neither of them told anyone they'd gotten married. They seemed to understand how quickly it all happened and how bad it might look. But nothing stays a secret forever. When Donna's family eventually learned that Mark had remarried, they were stunned. It hadn't even been a year since Donna's murder, and already Mark had replaced her. They also learned about Mark's plans to sell the house where Donna had been killed and move with Rebecca to a new home in the country. And they were even more hurt when Mark started limiting their access to Bailey until it was practically nonexistent. It was all a part of Mark's grand plan for his new life. And now he finally had everything he wanted. He was remarried, living in a new house, and ready to build a large family.

30:02Over the next several years, Rebecca gave birth to three children. By the fall of 1998, Mark had a growing family and appeared to be a devoted husband and father. He regularly videotaped his new life, showing himself fishing with his kids. Rebecca caring for the family and the children growing up surrounded with affection. From the outside, they looked happy, loving, and complete. But in October of 1998, Mark suffered a health scare that sent him to the emergency room. And while he and Rebecca were waiting at the hospital, they unexpectedly crossed paths with none other than Diane Schultz, Donna's close friend and the woman Mark had been having an affair with before the murders. For years, she'd been carrying the weight of the affair that things Mark had said about Donna and everything she suspected, but never told police. Her mental health had deteriorated to the point where she attempted to take her own life multiple times.

31:03Now Diane looked at the life Mark had built, his new wife and new family. In that moment, everything she'd been through with Mark came rushing back to the forefront of her mind. I can only imagine how overwhelming that had to have been for Diane. I mean, based on what you described, she's been struggling with the emotional weight of all of this for years. And it's not just the secret that she's been carrying. Mark manipulated her. He got her emotionally invested in their relationship, had her prepared to leave her marriage, and then abruptly left her immediately after his wife's murder. So she's likely trying to make sense of what happened to Donna, what Mark had told her beforehand, what her own role was in that and what Mark's relationship with her actually even meant. And you've described how significantly she's been struggling with her mental state. Whenever something begins disrupting someone's baseline functioning and their ability to get through everyday life, that's something we need to take seriously. So while Diane is trying to make it through each day and somehow put her life back together,

32:08she sees Mark and he has everything he wanted. He has a new wife, a new family, a beautiful home. All relatively soon after Donna's death and their breakup. So from Diane's perspective, Mark's moved on from his wife's murder and from her. And meanwhile, she's still living with the psychological consequences of everything that happened. And so I imagine seeing him again could bring up so much of that and it all would come rushing back. Like anger, guilt, resentment, fear, shame, and probably feeling injustice too. Because her life is in pieces and he has everything he wants wrapped up in a bow. What happens to witnesses psychologically when all these feelings of guilt and memories and everything they're trying to suppress come rushing back like this? Suppression is the effort to push distressing thoughts, memories, or emotions out of your immediate awareness just so you can function. So the problem is that suppression doesn't necessarily make the memory or the emotion that you're trying to get rid of go away.

33:09And sometimes those thoughts come rushing back involuntarily. You don't necessarily need to run into the person like Diane did or encounter something that reminds you of it. A memory can become intrusive out of nowhere or something very subtle can activate it without even knowing what triggered it. And that can be really distressing. A person can experience intrusive memories, rumination, anxiety, sleep disruption, difficulty concentrating, get physiological symptoms from that and avoidance. And then the person may work harder to push those thoughts away, which can create this cycle where they're constantly trying to avoid something that keeps coming into their awareness. Guilt and self-blame make that even harder, especially for someone carrying a secret or feel regret or shame. And that's a lot of times what witnesses might be experiencing. Well Mark seemed to know there was a chance Diane would want to shed her guilt. As he and Rebecca left the hospital that day, he made a strange prediction.

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37:22By early 1999, 36-year-old Mark Winger and his wife Rebecca were living a quiet stable life outside of Springfield with their growing family. From the outside, Mark appeared to have completely moved on from the tragedy that once defined him. But life as he knew it was about to fall apart. About February, three and a half years after Mark killed Donna and Roger, Diane Schultz finally went to police and told them everything she knew. When she unexpectedly ran into Mark and Rebecca at the hospital weeks before, her feelings of guilt came rushing back. After seeing Mark had gotten everything he'd ever wanted, it all became too much for her to hold in. Diane told investigators about the affair. The comments Mark had made about wishing Donna was dead and the disturbing conversations in which he suggested Diane could discover Donna's body. She also told them that after the murders, Mark had warned her not to speak with investigators

38:22or reveal their affair. The police were shocked when they heard Diane's story. They quickly reopened the case and offered Diane immunity for her continued cooperation. Mark kept the renewed investigation quiet while they went back through key evidence. Mark had no idea they were looking into him and soon they started looking at the crime scene with a very different theory in mind. Suddenly, some things began to take on new meaning. On the day of the murders, there had been no sign of forced entry in the Winger's home, meaning Roger had likely been invited in. And if Mark had truly been exercising when Roger arrived, like he'd originally claimed, it seemed unlikely that Donna, who was scared of Roger, would have willingly let him in. Police also questioned why Roger would have carried a coffee mug and a pack of cigarettes inside if he'd arrived with the intent to murder Donna. And then there was the position of both bodies.

39:23On the day of the murders, police didn't seem to think too much of how Donna and Roger were found, but when detectives revisited the crime scene photos years later, it was one of the first things that caught their attention. Mark claimed he'd shot Roger while Roger was attacking Donna, but investigators believe that if events had unfolded that way, Roger should have fallen backward with his feet positioned near Donna's head. Instead, he was lying in the opposite direction. Each detail raised more questions about the story Mark had told, and the authorities weren't the only ones becoming more suspicious of him. In December of 1999, a few months after the criminal investigation into Mark secretly began, Mark's wrongful death lawsuit against Roger's former employer started moving toward a trial, and the case came with some shocking new allegations. A blood spatter expert hired by the Shuttle Company's own lawyers presented a theory no one had heard before. They said that based on their expert opinion, Mark Winger was responsible for both murders

40:28and had staged the scene. To make matters worse for Mark, the Springfield State Journal Register published the allegations, which meant all of his loved ones read about the accusation. Every family member who reads this is going to experience a range of emotions, but that will vary based on their relationship with Mark. Mark's family, for example, may experience shock and denial. That's more likely going to be the case. Mark's been carefully crafting an image and identity for years that is completely opposite to how he's being portrayed now. And especially for Rebecca, who is now married to Mark and has a family with him. That's not something she's necessarily going to be able to accept psychologically without compelling evidence. Because that would mean re-evaluating everything she knows about him, and then making a very big life decision in response to that. Donna's family, on the other hand, may feel a mixture of anger, validation, betrayal, and guilt, especially when you consider how much time has passed.

41:30And if you recall, he refused to let them see Bailey after Donna died, and he pulled away from them. So they likely had their own questions, concerns, or doubts as it is, and that are now getting validated. But at the same time, they're also learning some very distressing news. So those feelings are also likely directed at law enforcement, who accept Mark's version of events, despite the discrepancies that they notice even back then. So anger would be a very normal reaction when you realize that the person that you believed was grieving with your family may have been the person actually responsible for creating that grief in the first place. And there may also be some guilt for not seeing it themselves. But we don't go around accusing people of murder or even considering that our loved one is capable of that as the first explanation, that's hindsight. They're evaluating things now as information they didn't have at the time. And this is going to be a very overwhelming experience for all of the families. Once that theory appeared in print, Mark's carefully curated image started to collapse.

42:35Shortly after the article came out, Mark decided to drop the lawsuit. But that didn't stop people who were close to the case from wondering whether or not there was any truth to the theory, especially Donna's family. Their relationship with Mark had already become strained. But now they were looking back at his new life in a very different way. Even so, they didn't want to believe that someone they'd once loved as a son or brother could have been responsible for something so horrific. Meanwhile, Rebecca never wavered. She stood by her husband and refused to believe that the father of her children could be a killer. But over the next two years, investigators continued to rebuild the case without Mark or his family knowing. It's unclear whether they used the evidence that had been presented in the civil case, and overall finding new evidence was tough. The crime scene no longer existed, witnesses' memories had faded, and the original investigation had only lasted a matter of days, so there weren't many reports to work from.

43:37Detectives now had to search for new information that might explain what had really happened inside the Winger home. And then they found something that had been in the file the whole time. Roger Harrington's roommate at the time of the murders, a woman named Susan Collins, had told police back in 1995 what she saw that day. Nobody had followed up. Now six years later, investigators finally understood that it changed everything. Susan had told police that on the day Roger died, someone called the house asking to meet with him, and that she watched Roger on the phone arranging it. Suddenly, the note found inside Roger's car, the one listing Mark's name, address, and 4.30 pm made sense to investigators. It wasn't a sign of a planned hit, but a scheduled meeting with Mark. It's unclear when exactly Mark learned the case had been reopened and that he was now a suspect, but when investigators decided to ask Mark about that phone call to Roger,

44:42he couldn't come up with a story that satisfied the police. He continued to deny everything and maintained that Roger was Donna's killer. This time around, the police weren't buying it. They now believed Mark had a clear motive to kill his wife, and they had evidence that he'd lured Roger to their home to frame him. Soon, Mark would no longer be able to avoid the accusations. With Susan's testimony locked in, the authorities felt like they had enough evidence to present their case to a grand jury. And on August 23rd, 2001, Mark Winger was indicted on two counts of first-degree murder. He was arrested that day while he was at work. Wow, so it's been six years since Donna's death. So that six years that Mark has lived without consequences and worse, he thought he was going to financially benefit from her death through a civil suit, which I think just adds to the audacity of this. And up until this point, as far as we understand it, he had no idea Diane had reported him or

45:47that police had reopened their investigation. He thought it was a civil lawsuit that had implicated him, and a civil investigation is very different from a criminal investigation. And even after that report came out and the newspaper was printed, nothing immediately happened. Rebecca stood by him. So even when his reputation was threatened, he survived it. That's reinforcing. So for six years, every consequence Mark might have faced or feared, either didn't happen or was something he was able to escape. So I imagine being arrested genuinely surprised him. He likely experienced disbelief, maybe some anger, humiliation, and he's going to attempt to regain control. And given what we've seen from Mark, one way he may try to regain that control is through the narrative itself by explaining, reframing denying what he already did and trying to restore the version of events that has worked for him for six years. Do you think there comes a point when criminals who get away with things for years like this

46:50eventually believe the danger of getting caught has passed? Absolutely. I think we've all experienced a variation of this where we anticipate something happening or we stay alert for it and when it doesn't happen, we loosen our guard. I think a great example is when let's say you first move into a new place, a new home, and you hear it unfamiliar noise at night and it's every night. And initially, every time you hear it, you get up and search for it. You might look outside. You might try to find it. You might turn on some lights. But if you hear that same noise night after night and nothing happens, you don't find any cause for it. There's nothing risky comes out of it. Eventually over time, you start to barely react to it at all. But the reality is the noise isn't gone. It hasn't changed, but your response to the noise is what changes. And that's called habituation. And something very similar could happen with the fear of being caught. Initially, Mark may have worried about getting caught. He may have worried Deanne might eventually say something. He may have worried that police might show up at his doorstep at some point.

47:54But six years of those fear consequences, never materializing, can gradually reduce that kind of vigilance and make him feel like the danger has passed and he doesn't have to worry about it as much anymore. Mark couldn't believe he'd been arrested and he maintained his innocence from behind bars. While a waiting trial, he also tried to maintain his role as a devoted father. He called his children whenever he could and regularly wrote them letters from behind bars. But when his murder trial began on May 20, 2002, Mark was finally forced to face the accusations against him. The prosecution presented a clear theory. Mark wanted done a dead and he'd lured Roger Harrington into the house so he could kill them both and frame Roger for her murder. The most damning evidence came from Deanne Schultz. Deanne testified about everything she knew and explained that during the years she held it all in, she sank into a deep depression. But while Deanne's testimony gave jurors a dark look behind the image Mark had maintained

48:57for years, his lawyers fought hard to preserve it. They painted him as an innocent man being prosecuted years after police had already cleared him. They emphasized Roger's mental health history and argued that the original investigators had reached the correct conclusion using much of the same physical evidence now being presented against Mark. They also tried to destroy Deanne's credibility by portraying her as a depressed, bitter, former lover who resented Mark for ending their affair and moving on with Rebecca. But in the end, the jury believed the prosecution. On June 5, 2002, just over two weeks after the trial began, they returned after 13 hours of deliberation and found Mark Winger guilty of murdering both Donna Winger and Roger Herrington. He was sentenced to spend the rest of his natural life in prison without the possibility of parole. Mark was sent to the Pontiac Correctional Center in Illinois to begin serving his time,

49:59but even behind bars, he continued insisting he was innocent and he was willing to go to extraordinary lengths to make others believe it. Next three years later, Mark made headlines again. Investigators learned that from behind bars, Mark plotted to have Deanne Schultz kidnapped and forced to recant her testimony in writing and on camera. Once she had cleared his name, the plan was for her to be killed. Mark discussed the plot with another inmate, but that man went to the authorities and agreed to secretly record their conversations. To turn out, Deanne wasn't the only person Mark considered targeting. He also discussed having a childhood friend killed after that person refused to post his $1 million bail. So I think this highlights Mark's desperation for control, because incarceration takes almost all of that control away. He lost his freedom, his family, his career, his reputation, and his identity. But he also lost control over Deanne when she went to police and later testified against

51:03him and apparently he lost control over his friend too. He's realizing just how much control he lost from where he is. And look at what he wants to do now. He wants to force Deanne to recant the testimony that helped put him there. And he wants her to say that she lied and that he is innocent and then he wants her killed. Does that sound familiar to you? Donna wrote those letters about Roger because she was genuinely frightened of him and after doing that, he murdered her and then exploited her words to help frame Roger for her murder. Now he wants Deanne to create written and recorded statements proclaiming his innocence so he can use her words to help undo his conviction and then murder her right after that. Maybe there's some desperation to this as well. Mark used to be able to manipulate people and circumstances rather easily himself, but now he's incarcerated. He has to attempt to do that from behind bars which comes with some very real limitations that he's clearly learning. That could be angering him or making him feel vengeful, but at the core, I think this really

52:07is him trying whatever he can to regain control. Mark was eventually convicted on two counts of solicitation of murder and received two additional concurrent 35-year sentences. To this day, he has never admitted to killing Donna or Roger. He continues to maintain his innocence and has filed multiple challenges to his conviction, but none have been successful. Mark Winger spent years chasing his version of the All-American Dream. He destroyed his own family to get the life he thought he wanted, but in the end, he couldn't outrun his own horrific actions and he lost it all. Because of him, Donna and Roger's loved ones are left to mourn the lives they could have led, and Bailey grew up without the person who fought so hard to become her mother.

53:10Before we get out of here, it's time for the Angles Angle. We're all tell you three pieces of advice I'd give our subject if they were my patient. For educational and entertainment purposes only, this is general psychological commentary. It's not therapy treatment, diagnosis, or individualized mental health advice, and it does not establish a psychologist-patient relationship. So here's what I tell Mark Winger if he came into my office. Number one, make sure the goals you want are actually yours and are what make you happy. Number two, learn to tolerate the outcomes that you don't want. And number three, don't view people for their utility. I think if Mark had some more awareness into these three specific areas of his life far earlier, that we might have had some potential for some intervention here.

54:12Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for a deep dive into the mind of another murderer. Serial killers and murderous minds is a crime house original powered by paved studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram at Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow serial killers and murderous minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House Plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of serial killers and murderous minds, add free, along with early access to each thrilling two-part series. Serial killers and murderous minds is hosted by me Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and is a crime house original powered by paved studios. This episode was brought to life by the serial killers and murderous minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benadon, Laurie Maranelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Sarah Count,

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