"Michael Douglas"

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2:01Meet with a dedicated designer for free expert help with every size project. Shop in store and online at paragold.com. Okay guys, I'm just just walked to my mailbox. I'm going through my mail. It's what I got here. I got a jury notice. Probably toss that. I have a sweepstakes. I should probably enter that. I have a utility bill that's going to be turned off. All my lights are going to be turned off. Okay, I should probably toss that and, oh, what's this? Let me open this really quick. It's an all-new smartless right now. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Guys, guess what's coming up in a couple of years?

3:04Yeah, I know. We got to mention, oh my God. Yeah, the Hollywood bowl. We're going to be at the Hollywood Bowl October 17th. And not just there, like not hanging out, actually doing a show at the moment. We're going to be on the stage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you don't have tickets yet, you go to smartless.com slash live, is that right? Wait, what's it? What is it? Smartless.com slash live. Okay. Oh my gosh, that's pretty easy. And for that, they're going to get a double guest, is that right? Yeah. Two guests. Yeah. And we got some fun surprises. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah, we got some fun surprises. All for the price of one ticket. Yeah, all for the price of three. And a nice beautiful October, October 17th, right? A fall night out there under the stars. It's gorgeous. And yeah, you buy a ticket and you can't put a price tag on a smile. Oh, what a great sell. You know, well, you're the best. Anyway, it's going to be a great night. Yes. Hopefully as great as this next guest coming up, guys, let's get to the episode. Guys, I was racing out of the house to come be here on time.

4:09Yeah. And out of the house. Yeah, he had to go across the compound. Oh, into a separate structure. Yeah. Sorry, yeah, yeah. Golf carts, a half hour golf cart drive. Tell the listener. Mm-hmm. Wait, guys, everybody just, I thought, well, you can keep chewing well. Just everyone else just start. Yeah. God. I know. It's an audio show. Yeah. Anyway, and there in front of the window by the front door, lying on the ground is a small bird that had hit the window, I guess earlier, and was not yet dead, but deeply wounded. Hurl. No. And I'm racing to you guys. I didn't have chance to stop and help. I had to call back into the house. And Amanda, I think, I hope, is tending to the young bird. But guys, I'm not good about seeing you in your second-time animals.

5:09This is a set. This is the second time in five days that there's been a dead bird that, a bird that was injured. Remember on Sunday, mate came across an injured bird. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. What's going on? What if that bird tonight was sitting at the dinner table, just all wrapped in bandages, and it's like, hey, I'm just going to be spending some time in your house from now? I can speak. Yeah. Boy, that would be fantastic. Sean, Sean, I mean, I'll never forget, right? Michigan, Michigan frog. Isn't that the name of the frog? Yeah, Michigan J Frog. Michigan J Frog. Hello, my baby. Hello, my baby. Hello, my baby. What was the lesson of that particular cartoon episode? I don't know, but every time, yeah, he said, it was somebody who, he was like, oh my god, you gotta hear my, it's like saying I have a friend who's really funny. Watch. And then they don't say anything funny. I have a frog that can sing. Watch, and the frog doesn't sing around anybody else. And then he rents out Carnegie Hall, and the frog just goes, rib it. Every time. What? Remember that? And then he got his own network, the WB, the WB, yeah. And then he got the WB, the WWB, yeah. I remember that show.

6:09So how's everybody this morning? Good. Scotty's birthday is coming up. I'm going to take him to Lucas Museum. Oh, he's speaking of Scotty. That Scotty, you played us that music that he wrote for the college there. I mean, it's just like, that was stunning, stunning, stunning stuff. Thanks, thanks. It's like, it's like, I thought it was John, I thought it, when I walked in, you guys were playing it, and I thought it was John Williams. He recorded it with the John Williams orchestra, basically. Yeah, like a lot of people who played on a lot of John, for John Williams. It's a compliment. I mean, it's really good to me. Yeah, it's great. It'll come out, thanks for saying that. It'll come out like in a month or so, like I'll post it and all that stuff. But, so you guys, you're taking him to the Lucas Museum. Lucas Museum, yeah. And then, are you just taking it? I just read an article about that this morning, yeah. More banana. So, yeah. Yeah, you just gave me shit and then you, you fill your mouth and then start talking. Yeah. No, do it. Do it. Do it. Keep going. Banana sound, do it. No, I can't. Respectable guy. No, you're doing it. No, you're doing it. Don't worry. But so this episode is, we're in October.

7:12This episode is brought to you by October. And the Lucas Museum opened up from the week ago. On his birthday. Yeah. And I'm just very excited to go see that. Yeah. So you're going, you're going to the opening one is birthday. We can't. We're going to be in London, but we're going to come back after that. But what are you going to do with your back and protector? Yeah. What kind of outfit will you guys be wearing when you go to the Lucas Museum? Oh, like cape. Tatooine. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Some sort of a loose flowing row. We've got the tattooing hat on. Yeah, I do. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I'm super, super excited. And you know, I hear there's not a lot of Star Wars stuff in there. No, it'll be hard price to find something in there. No, no, no. I think JB was being serious. I'm being serious. No, I just saw a video of it. Somebody took a video that was already in it. And there's tons of star. Of course, there's tons of Star Wars stuff in it. All right. Just the article I read. Jason, you just, you just, I don't know how's a panic in the near-immunity.

8:14I was like, what? Why? Why? Maybe what they said was calling my Congress. Not as much as you would think. It is much more about those. No, you're making all of this up. I was reading in the New York Times this morning. Oh, really? Oh. Another bite for sure. Sorry, Jason, go ahead. Another bite of that. The karma is so instant, it's fucking bananas. Then I'm going to move into this. My Aloha bar. Aloha bar. Those bars are great. They're just filled with stuff you don't know. Yeah. No, those planets. Why don't I just eat whole food? They describe it all in the back. These are Aloha bars, everybody. Oh, God, please. Those are your snacks. You know what I had for a snack before bed last night? Let me guess. Let me guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dumplings. No. A gallon of caramel corn. No. A molasses. No. Hot wings. Hot wings. A can of sweet peas with butter. What? I just think you want entire can of peas. Wait, wait, what are sweet peas? Sweet peas. Like, can, can.

9:14Can somebody call somebody? Can peas. Are you, are you, are you, did you go into your doomsday bunker and just grab an extra can? What happened? Did you get some tang? Did you make a big jug of tang while you were down there? Yes. By the way, that sounds good to wash it down. Wait, I don't understand. Where did you get a can of peas from? I stock my whole pantry with peas because I like it as a snack. I just eat a whole can. True, truly. I like loose peas. Loose peas. Into a pot. Now, how are we doing it? Yeah, I put it on the stove and a pot. Takes like two minutes to take with water and with water and then you strain it and you put butter on it and then you eat it. I eat the whole thing. Sure. So you just love the taste of peas. By the way, by the way, Sean, again, again, it's not like we don't believe that you ate the whole thing. That's not the issue. The issue is, or the butter, or the butter. The thing, the issue is the thing itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure this is something that's just, it's just always kind of there, like, partially on a plate and you don't pay. Do you buy your friends at Delmont?

10:14You don't really pay it much mind. And that was them. You made a whole new out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. Yeah, because they're sweet. I don't know, it's like a sweet snack. Sure. Yeah. I love it. Don't you like pea soup? I do. Yeah. This is a different word soup. Yeah. These are solids. Yeah. All right. Well, if our guest is still up, we're going to fire up a conversation with him. Jamie, you don't want to just get rid of that a little bit of our real friend. Let me just all unwrap the Oloha bar. No, no, no. All right. Now, fellas. Yes. I'm not sure how to properly introduce his guest this morning to go through his credits. No one would take an hour to mention his nominations and awards would take another. He's been a steady and consistent presence in our business that is anything but steady and consistent. For over 60 years, he has managed to act and produce some of the best, most entertaining, most respected, best remembered projects

11:15that businesses turned out. But he's also worked at a gas station, where he won, he won mobile man of the year. No, of the months. Do you hear a bird? I think the bird's okay. The bird's alive. He also did a full year of college at UCSB, okay? A full single year. He was almost kidnaped at age eight and he's beaten cancer. He's got a new book coming out, covers it all in fine detail, but he's stopping by here today to give us a few bits and pieces. It's a great honor to have him here. Please welcome the man behind the China Syndrome Wall Street fatal attraction. Basically, I'll stick one flu of the kukus nests for Mancine Stone falling down. The War of Roses. Michael Douglas. What? Many great films, folks. Michael Douglas. What? What? What? What? Douglas. Oh my god. Michael Douglas. I mean, what is it legend day on smartness? I know. What a troika. I mean, can I, I want to call you, sir. Can I call you Michael? Call me Mikey. Can you call me? Mikey, I'll never be Mikey.

12:15Mikey, I think you want to chase me. You know, going through your stuff, doing the modicum of research we do here, I just, I'm just knocked out, sir. The amount of highest quality work possible that you've done with your time, as well as just commercial success as well and the producing. And then just the life you've lived when you're off the set. I just, I don't know how you've packed it all in. So thank god you've written a book about it. So happy you're here to share. What's the name of the book? One hell of a ride. Okay, perfect title. Perfect, perfect title. That's great. Well, I mean, can we start near the beginning? I mean, I just, I would love to know, you know, obviously your father had a head start with things and showing you what this business is about

13:16and what it could be. How early on did you think that you might want to do that as well? Not too early. I think, no, probably being the son of my mother was an actress too. Yeah. And so I was aware of the business, but I know you guys have found this hard to believe it. We are a fairly self-involved group. And we like us. It is, they talk about the order of, you know, God, our country, family, and then the career. But I think for us at our business career kind of comes first. So my folks got divorced at a very young age when I was like about five. They just going out to California. My father just started getting a movie career and he probably kind of acted like a guy who never seen a girl before.

14:18So he didn't take long before my mom and say, I know this is going to stand in New York. Yeah. So let's go back to New York kids. Yeah. So I basically grew up as a New Yorker. Yeah. As part of it is being part of the Royal family, we had a small apartment on the west side facing the alley. It's on Central Park West, bit of face the alley. This was in 1948, 1949. Yes, Central Park West facing west is not great. No. That's funny. And so I knew them both as working people and as you know how anxious we all are to get a job. And they weren't ready to make those sort of choices between the family and stuff. So my early years was sort of bouncing back and forth between going to private schools, private schools in New York cities and all boy schools and uniforms and then going out to California on the holidays

15:19to visit my father who's career incrementally was continuing to improve and beginning to get a taste of that Hollywood. Right. Did you get a feel of that when you were back in New York and you're at school, you must have obviously your dad, of course, as you said, started to work more and more and be, you know, was a major movie star. How did that start to impact your life when you were back kind of living in New York life? Yeah. Well, you know, kids are inherently nasty. Yeah. And the truth is, there's our quote. I don't know, but do you guys go to camp or anything to give them? Oh, yeah. So inherently, if the kids know something more about you than you know about them, and in my case, oh, his kids are movie star. Oh, he must have been hot shit. You know, you haven't opened your mouth yet. You know, all right. He's hot shit. So you get him. So you already realized that there were

16:21pluses that went along with it. But the minuses were the fact that they had something on you that you make assumptions about who you were, what your background was, which was difficult to some point. So getting back to your question, Jason, I think that's why I thought this was the last thing that I wanted to be involved in. And was the sort of very kind of self-involved film. My mother was a, you know, she was doing soap operas, back keys on stage. And so we had, and Annie's her house keepers and big, big party, party, party, party. But the life out there in Hollywood, you know, watching what your dad was doing, all the things that go along with it, was that the first draw to it, or was it more about the craft and the art? And because you did study quite vigorously in New York and did a bunch of theater. And like, so when was, at what point did the craft sort

17:22of motivate you into the career versus maybe the lifestyle, or was the lifestyle ever an attraction to you? No, I think the biggest advantage of being second generation is that lifestyle's not a surprise to you. Right. You understand the insecurities, the foibles. I'm with my father and his best friends, Tony Curtis, Janet Lee, Gregory Pact, Frank Sinatra. You see them at night. You see them as real people and they're insecurities and this and that. So, the reality to me was when I was in college and had to declare a major. And it's a little different what happened, Jason. I went to a university, California, Santa Barbara, after going to boys schools, my entire life, right, including prep schools, all boys schools. And I remember my senior year, you know, in prep school, you know, you have your college advisor. And they always remind me of like travel agents, or they had these brochures in their hands,

18:23and they would go through these brochures like a trap. You sit there and all of a sudden, we'll stop and he pulled out this brochure. And there wasn't any IBD buildings or anything else. It was sort of a high shot of a guy walking down the beach carrying a surfboard in a bathing suit. And either side of him was a girl in a two-piece bathing suit. Now, this was 1963. I had never seen back east of two-piece bathing suit in my life, better yet I'm like college brochure. So I said, hey, I said, that looks good. I'm going there, man. I'm going there. Didn't you get accepted into Yale? I did. Yeah. And you were like, yeah, but look at the bikinis. No, no. Jason, my ass was so tight in boys' schools, I knew I had two. Yeah, you had some catching up. The beaches in New Haven don't really stack up to the beaches in Santa Barbara.

19:23Exactly. So that was actually at 16 or 18, and that was the first big decision. And a crucial decision in my life. Because for a number of reasons, it was 1963, 64 Vietnam War as just beginning east coasts where the most political activity was going on. Berkeley was leading the ground. We have a UC campuses. We're picking up on it. And also the hippie movement, which played a really important part in my life. So what happened after the first year of college at University, California, they politely said, look, I don't think you're ready for college. Why don't you take a, wasn't really kicking you out, but why don't you take a year or so off at your break? And that's when I went to the mobile gas station in my hometown of Westport, Connecticut, and it was the mobile man of the month. I was with the days in the gas station.

20:24I mean, you guys don't even know those days in the gas station, but you went to your gas. They had your windshield wipers wipe, and you had your oil was checked. You had your tire pressure checked. You know what you're reminding me of? Remember, you must have known this all too well. Try the sound of that ding. They'd have that hose that go across when they're going to harvest. They'd have that thing. Do you remember that, JB, your car with a roller? I love that. It doesn't exist anymore. I don't know. It's nostalgic. It's true that does not exist anymore. Yeah. Michael, was there a name for that hose? Was it called the Ding hose? I'm serious. That was your self-glued. My chest is the ding hose. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. All right. If you've been putting off car shopping because it sounds like a whole thing, buying your car online on Auto Trader makes it way easier, like almost easier than ordering your coffee easier.

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24:31This episode is brought to you by Hilton, the official hotel partner of the Big Ten. Every college football weekend, fired up fans hit the road with their lucky shirts, pre-game rituals with family and friends, and oddly specific traditions. Good thing Hilton's unmatched hospitality and unrivaled service is ready for all your superstitions. So if you really want to swing the odds in your favor this year, make Hilton a part of your game day tradition. When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton for this day. And now back to the show. So what happened? What happened is I came back to college after my U of I came back to college and I began to... The Santa Barbara? The Santa Barbara. And I began... The Santa Barbara? The Santa Barbara. And began to be involved with the...

25:32the artistic group on the campus. That group held out... Hang out in the corner of the student union in rain coats and dark coats and this and that. Sure. And was introduced to this... You know, this whole other world. And when I came back, went to the vice-chast, you run a declare a major. I said, what? By this time, man. By this time, I got into a little bit, man. And so I said, what do you mean? So you have to declare a major. I told him, man, I said... And so I said, I guess the only thing I know the most about is theater. I know my dad, I watched this soup, still never having an inkling about acting or anything like that. That was when I declared theater as my major and began my pursuit of doing that. You start doing that here on that area, which I was not a natural act.

26:33No, but you seem pretty natural to me. I mean, I don't... I gathered that, you know, you didn't learn how to be such a great actor in class. I bet you were... Oh, obviously, you were born with a lot of it. It's in your DNA. But can you recall the sort of... The... Your style and your ease with it, and your talent with it, growing over the years, and did you feel like you had enough under your feet when you went into, say, I would imagine the big launch was Street to San Francisco. Did you feel that you were equipped enough to take on that role and vault you into an ability to make a living in the business? No. I began with major, major stage fright. I could not walk on to a stage without a waist basket right off stage,

27:33which I would puke into. Really? Before I go on the stage, I had total stage fright, and I never thought I'd be overcoming. And the only reason... The only reason I think I actually stayed at it was to try to overcome the stage fright. And what did it? So one big thing happened in here at this time was that after my sophomore season, my stepfather, William Dared, who I grew up with, was on the board of a new theater called the National Playwrights Conference in Warleford, Connecticut. And what they would do every summer is they would put on like six new plays. And they had a small acting group that would do these plays. And my first summer there, I was just sort of in print just kind of cleaning up. But what happened is then they sort of allowed me to be part of a company. And the focus was on the material, on the play.

28:34You were only there as an actor as a tool to make these plays better. So you would sit there and you would run through the scenes, run through the show, then you would sit on the sidelines and listen to the notes that the director would be giving to the playwright in ways of how to improve the quality. So at a very early age, right at the beginning, I learned that everything was the material. Everything was about the quality of the material. And that allowed you to get out of your head about the result of your performance? It certainly helped. It certainly helped, but it allowed me to help understand the choices that I made professionally later on. I.e. it wasn't about the part. It wasn't about how it was done. It's about how good I think this is going to be a good movie. And because I had these years of formation on it. And then I was, you know, so then after school, I was doing off Broadway in New York.

29:36And finally got a CBS playhouse, which I did on television, which turned out really well. And CBS back then had a film in the vision I was starting to contract. I went out to California and proceeded to make five turkeys. Five really shitty movies. One, the one I remember about it, because CBS also owned radio, city music hall. And the movie was shown at Radio City Music Hall. And this friend of mine, John Gwer, who was one of the playwrights that I had met, showed him Neil. It called me as a John, to see the show. He said, yeah, yeah. Well, what did you think? You said, Michael, let me just say there were more people up on stage with the Rockets than there were in the audience. You know, not to sort of go back a little bit, but you know, it's interesting when I hear you as a young actor and you have that experience with the playwrights

30:37and that process, that must have helped you, cared you on, because you've had such a prolific career, also as a producer. And it must have, you had an early appreciation of what it is to build a thing that it's about them and to all that stuff. Is that true? Yeah, that's exactly true. And that's why I can't emphasize it enough at how important it was, not looking for parts. So anyway, after these five turkeys, I was sort of sliding into television. And this is where, you know, we're good luck, you know, just good grace happens for you. Two things happened to me early in my career. I was doing FBI's and medical centers, and this and that. And then Streets came up, and Streets was a lawsuit that Quill Martin, who was a very big time producer at that time, the future of Canon, Martin and he had all these shows that he did. Quill had this lawsuit with this brand new network called ABC.

31:42And he won the lawsuit. And the result of winning the lawsuit was a two-hour introduction movie to the series and 26-hour episodes committed back in the first season. So they, you know, for guys, so my aunt said, hey, man, this is a real great opportunity. It's a go-shop. And it starred Carl Maldon. Yeah. Carl Maldon, you know, was worshiped by Marlon Brando and it was just an unbelievably hard working actor and a really good actor. So that was five years. I did 104 hours. And I spent with Carl Maldon. Wow. And I was also structurally, once again, preludes, three acts, your prologues, learning structurally, you know, what your responsibility as an actor is, and then working with different directors every week and this was so, was so helpful

32:43and was a tremendous opportunity. And then the God, God was headed down and went full over the Kukus Nest, which was a project. Incredible. My father had developed and gone back himself to Broadway to do the show. It hadn't worked out. I had read in college 20th Century American literature, the book, like everybody who's taken acid. It was their favorite novel. And then, as I was working away and sort of overheard dad talking about selling the project, and I was there and I said, oh man, and I never thought about producing it. So please let me try to get the set up. I'll try to get it set up, you know, whether you playing the part, with the production company and all this. So the original idea was for your dad to play the lead part, not you? Oh, correct. No, it was, it was me. How old were you at the time? And this is ambitious. Yeah, it was ambitious. I started out, I was 23.

33:44Wow. I was 23. Wow. Yeah, and the movie, I tell the movie came out, I was 30. Okay. But he was so, he tried, so then he said, well, give me a year, let me try to get it going. And so, while I was doing Street to San Francisco, which was being filmed in San Francisco, and we were shooting 26 episodes on location. So, six days a week, right? Six days a week, eight and a half months straight. Well, I was a motherfucker. I mean, I was, you know, I was, you know, you're in every scene. You know, you couldn't ask for any harder work. At the same time, I was able to hook up with this, by partner, Saul, Zance Over at Fantasy Records in Berkeley, which is up there, so I would then go on over to, to Berkeley, we would work in Nurture, and so by the time I finished the fourth season,

34:44we were able to make the movie. And they wrote your character off to free you up to give you the time to do all the finishing work on the producing, yes? Correct, Jason. But the reality is that we all know, and I know you know, that, you know, for a network to say, I have a five-year contract with you, right? But we're gonna let you out. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't happen. It doesn't happen at all. Yeah. Well, what do you think you saw in that project that no one else saw? Because you did get a series of passes there. It did take a while to get it going, and then it does eventually go on to become the film that it is, wins all five major Academy Awards, and you're 31. And what do you, you couldn't have been blind luck. What do you think you saw in it that everyone else ended up finally seeing? I think I saw that it was a really, really good story, you know, really, really classic good story.

35:45And I think I overcame everybody say, you know, who wants to see another snake pit? Sure. That was the big, you know, who wants to see you go and picture by crazy people? And later on, I checked out and snake pit did very well. Thank you very much. It wasn't the thing that happened. But I think it was the innocence of not having been burnt yet and making mistakes, and saw my partner sort of was the same way. And we were strictly, strictly independent picture. But we went, you know, and I remember this, I saw when I went to talk to the directors, and most of them were up in the San Francisco Bay area, and they were all kind of smog, and we tried to talk to them. And I kept their cards close to their vast. You really couldn't feel what it was going to be. Yeah, what did you get from it? And we found a Milos and remember looking something told me about Milos and a couple of his pictures,

36:46his Czech pictures. One was called the Fireman's Ball, which was, in one way, with similar to Cukus Nesson, and all the characters took place like in one room and had the right sort of humor. And Milos was in the middle of sort of a breakdown. He was living in the Chelsea Hotel in New York. And he had a friend of his Iban passer, and also Czech director. And Milos would give Iban passer all his information about what he wanted Iban to tell his shrink. And then Iban would go instead of, and Milos would leave Iban go for Milos to the shrink and share all this stuff and come back. So the fact that we got the script to Milos, he flew all the way out to California. And he sat down with us. My place up in Ben and the Canyon and opened the first page.

37:47And he told us exactly what he wanted to do. And I remember in Saul and I just started crying. We were just like, OK, here's a man who's going to share with us. But we want so much. How about that? When did Jack Nicholson come on board? Was that Milos' idea? Is it studio? No, we tried to get Gene Hackman, Gene Hackman passed. At what point did your father say, yeah, it's not going to be for me. Go cast it. That's not the way it went down. Wow. No, the moment came, I had to go to dad and say, dad, we got it going. But it's not going to be you playing McMurphy. Wow. That conversation go. Yeah. You know, careers had changed. He was in his 60s by then. OK. And the business had changed. And it took me even a long time. I'm sure you guys don't realize. You can count on three fingers to good parts you have in your life.

38:47You know, the really true parts you have in your life. And this was a great part. And he was hurt, upset. I mean, I gave him half of my producing deal. Yeah. He ended up being more money than he made than any picture he did in his life. Right. Sure. Wow. Which made things a little easier. But it was the toughest thing I had ever had to do. You know, all bad. How long did it take to repair the kind of relationship after that? That's a good question. You know, I talked about it in my book, you know, a lot. And I had the greatest adoration of my father. But he was rough when we were kids. He was out of that abuse of abuse of generation. Yeah. You did something wrong. You'd get slapped or get a bad impression. Big time. Yeah. And so we were, you know, we were pretty scared of him. And not to mention the fact that he just was this.

39:47I'm nip its character, you know, right? It's part of this. Sure. That's like it, of course. He just larger than life. And he had a temper that went along with it. So our relationship was not, was cautious growing up. And my love for him grew and grew to the day he died in my admiration. But in the early days, it wasn't there. Sure. And that's, and that's sure they didn't help. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you mentioned this in the book. I don't know. I haven't, I really look forward to reading it. But was there a moment where you guys were able to sort of, you got over it and you guys were able to reconcile? Did you ever have the, I don't know, what's the word, closure that you wanted from it, from this experience? Yeah. I mean, we did. I mean, we did, you know, at a professional point in time, which I think really was, for me, it was the year of, a failure attraction followed by Wall Street.

40:50It's been a while. A lot of times. We've been living in the Oscar. Yeah, what a year. For me, finally, feeling like I stepped out of the shadow. Yeah. Yeah. This, this amazing guy. You know, I, for the first time ever in my entire life about two months ago, I watched Wall Street. Yeah. Oh wow. I just saw it. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, oh, it's so, it's so, it's blown away. And you, and you say Michael, there's three roles that are, you know, than an actor gets. You've had, I feel like you've had many. I know I was going to say there's an incredible run. First of all, you mentioned fatal attraction. You can't, you know, how many times in my life I've used the expression of that. Perfect. I will not be ignored day, right? Right. But you, was there, was there a moment? What was that moment? Because you did have this incredible run of these great roles. What was the first coming out of Cuckoo's Nest as a producer? And you've done streets, you've done all this stuff. What was the first film role that you were like, okay, now I'm, I'm going to, I'm going to a whole, whole different league here and now, you know, this is getting the attention. And now I'm getting the offer, the roles I want. Do you remember that?

41:50Was there a single? Well, yeah, but here's the gate. I was an Academy Award winning producer. Yeah. But I was a television actor. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, you all know, it's really still. It's gotten a lot better. The back of the man, it was two separate rails. You were in television and I think before me, only I think it was Steve McQueen and, and Clint Eastwood, who made that transition from then, from going, getting into films. So I got the Oscar. I set up the production office as a producer. And I'm, and I'm, and I'm hanging on to what I realize is my biggest strength, which is understanding material, knowing good material, not worrying about my part, not worrying it. And you say the good roles, but a lot of my movies, you know, Glenn Close had had a great role. Sharon Stone had a lot of times it was never about my starring role.

42:53I just want to be in a good movie. And I think it was better to be. Yeah, but yeah, but you shan through. Yeah. No matter, even though you say that, despite you were, yeah, man, I mean, integral to all of them. It's what I've, what I've watched and studied and admired for so long about you, Michael, in your career is that it's so, it's so interesting to hear you put towards what I guess I've been absorbing, which is that you've always been servicing the film, the story. There's, I've never watched you and thought, oh, this guy is doing me a favor. And giving me a performance that he thinks I bought a ticket to come see. Right. No, like you've always behaved on screen, assuming that the audience is about a ticket to see the film, not you. And so you've always just disappeared and you've been, you've been us on the screen. You've been this, this, this trustworthy proxy that is experiencing whatever story is

43:57going on around you. And it's just been, it's been, it's been a, it's been a real gift that you've given. I could just speak for myself. You've given me, you have been this great proxy, this great tour guide that have brought me through so many great stories and environments and challenges and, and complications and decisions and successes all through your characters on these, in these, in these stories. It's just, it's just been stunning. I just, I couldn't imagine having a better career. I truly love it. Just thank, thank you very much. It is true, but the one note that I hear more than anything else from people is, you know, when I see your name, I don't know what it's going to be, but I know it's going to be good. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what a compliment. And I remember hearing a story once this guy was telling about a big movie star, I'm not going to name names, a big movie star went in and he was having, this is 30 years ago. He went into a studio and a well-known studio executive, and we all know as well.

45:00And the star, the movie star was saying, you know, when I came in late and he said, I want to do this, I want to do that. And the executive stopped him and said, Hey, motherfucker, I'll put the guard at the gate in your role. You're not the star. The movie is the same. Right. That's right. Yeah. And it always stopped with that story. And it always stopped with that story. Right. That idea kind of goes back to what you were saying, Michael, just always, yeah. It's the story. It's the film, right? And it's, it's important. Even hearing you say it now, it's like, I've just absorbed that. I mean, like, yeah, I got to remember that. I got to remember it. So starting after that, then, you know, I got to run a good production. Not to get in that, because after, after Cooper's nest, I had romance in the stone, which I wasn't going to play the part. I just, I couldn't get an actor to play the part, you know, I tried to get. And then finally, I was fortunate enough, the studio won a Deborah Winger. It's another story. And then, and then, and then finally, the studio, you know, had met Kathleen Turner, was

46:02she'd done a sexy picture she made. Oh, no, not the heat of the night. No, with, with Bill Hurte. Yeah. I know what you're talking about. I can see the poster right now. Perfect. Was that before after China Syndrome? That was after. Okay. My first syndrome, uh, and originally I wasn't gonna play the part where it's your drive was, was gonna play the third role. Such a great movie. And then, that you know, I have so I had like four more hits as a producer. I, I happen to be in them, but that parts, but I had, you know, I was, you know, developed a movie called Starman, a Jeff Bridges' Give. I love that movie. I wasn't approved. I wasn't approved as the actor, uh, for no ship. Yeah, no, I'm just, I was producing Jeff was, you know, so there was still, you know, So there's still a lot of that for a while. We'll be right back. All right, if you've been putting off car shopping because it sounds like a whole thing,

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50:09Yeah. OK. It was really kind of where it was OK. It's put to bed now or at least I did. I mean, that's bizarre to me to think. To think that it was that late. Yeah, I had some hostilities about it. I mean, I did about the whole television thing versus feature film. It's always been. But as a producer, though, you must have been cognizant of sort of minding the pocketbook. And what star could translate to a presumed base level of ticket sales based on what they did in the last film and all that stuff? So you were probably aware a little bit of what the studio's agenda might have been and how it kind of made sense, even though it probably didn't feel any better. But I was adjacent, but I was so fortunate from the very beginning that I only went on this the best person forward. Or I mean, I never ever took an audience's reaction into it. Another picture like that would be falling down.

51:09Falling down. So she might have. I love his picture that nobody thought of it. It was good to work it all. But I just realized how important those years at the O'Neill and then all those script episodes really just paid such an important part to reminding me about structure and telling me able to tell a good story. And also the reality that if I didn't do the part man, there's 10 other people that can now get it. Well, most of these incredible characters that you've played, they're men who are seemingly in control. But they're deeply flawed. And what is it about those characters that for you make it so fun to play and to explore and to kind of make your own? I think it's just the generation I grew up with. I think the Vietnam War made the gray area.

52:12Who's the good guys? Who's the bad guys? My dad's generations, they had white hats and black hats. My generation, it's a little murky. And I seem to be attracted to the person. Exploring that. Yeah. Because it does seem like, yeah, you're mentioning the generation before, there was this this artifice that the male role needed to adopt or learn or carry. And then you playing these parts where the fun for the audience is watching these cracks in that veneer, in that artifice, and seeing the vulnerabilities and the humanity in these outwardly seeming put together men. Yeah. And even looking back to Cuckoo's list, we could not find an actress to play Nurse Ratchet. Oh, wow. Because the politics for women at that time,

53:13but you don't want to be a villain. Right, right. Oh, interesting. Guys, guys, guys love the villain part. Right, we want to play the villains, the most invisible back then, and Grant Mang, Bagcroft, Colleen, Do Her, Geraldine, Page, they all turned to tap. Wow. They didn't say you want to play the part. Let me ask you guys a quick question. Yes, sir. Well, all of your successful careers, man, Jason, that's what you're a wonderful actor, but hell of a director, man, hell of a director. Thank you, sir. Sean, what can I say? You guys worked together on Will and Grace, didn't you? We did. Yeah. We did. How did you come about on this? And then I just sealed your live at Hollywood, both. Yeah. This is a whole speakerspeak thing, man. I mean, it's who, it's the greatest gift. It's the greatest gift it's ever come to. This is an accident. You know, the accident. We get to hang around and be idiots.

54:13And we get to talk to folks like you and have these conversations, unfortunately, for us, there's a bunch of people out there that are willing to listen to us. Yeah, days like today, or it never feels like a job, but days like today talking to you is just, it's unbelievable. Yeah, I mean, and like these are, Michael, when you were on Will and Grace, I would have never asked you these questions, but now I'm not in this form. You wanted to. I wanted to. You wanted to. The producers told you not to. All right. Yeah. I was just like blown away that I was acting with you. But we've seen. Can I just add, so you do all this, I mean, you, again, as Jason pointed out, and we all know, you have this incredible, you know, all these incredible roles and all these incredible projects that you produce and that you shepherd it, and that you believed in when other people didn't. And so you do all this stuff. And then you, in the last, I don't forget when you did the first one, but you kind of dipped your toe and went fully into the Marvel world. Right. And all of a sudden, you're doing a whole different genre of thing. Was that, was that like, was, did your experience, was that just like just another gig

55:14or was like stepping into another world for you after all that you had done? Right. Well, let me, let me just back up a little bit because it helps you explain it. So what I've done in the book, you know, obviously, my child's right, I think it's pretty interesting in turn, my mother being beauty and my father, a Russian Jew, and how they came together at Academy and all that stuff and growing up. And then what I decided to do as a producer, a book that really meant a lot to me with a book called Memo by David O. Selznick. And you can ever get a chance, or ever interested to know what a producer does, read Memo. So what I thought I would do rather than just kind of continuing my history was I took 10 chapters and I took 10 chapters, I took 10 movies. And I go in depth, I mean,

56:15I mean, a whole length, 30, 40 pages. I had each of them talking about how it was created and initiated what the steps were that came through it all, what personal involvements there might have been and the making of it. And so that takes up a good chunk. And then for me, I remember I got cancer. I got stage four cancer and things weren't looking great. And so this is moving on after a whole crux of stuff. And after my cancer and after I survived and got out of it, I was really fortunate to have this Liberace Project, the Steve Soda Berg and Matt Damon, the Chandler-Labra, which was great. And then I just said, well, look, what have I done? What do I want to do now that mortality is more of an interest

57:18subject for me than it was before? And I said, well, you know, I've never done any green screen. I haven't done a green screen picture. And that was how that sort of started. And so there's a thrombin agents and Ant-Man thing came up. And it was fascinating. And I'm pretty, because I'm familiar with green screen. But you know, I said, no, it's type of acting. It's interesting. It's weird. And some people are really good at it. And then the other thing says, well, what else happens you've done? Well, I love comedy. I love comedy. I'm not particularly good at it. But I just appreciate it. I never know why it's not nominated for Oscars every year. I appreciate comedians and funny people. So the situation with Chuck Lauren Allen Arkin. Oh, yeah. The committee method.

58:18So I said, man, what a chance to learn. Oh, that's right. You know, fuck to learn comedy. I mean, Chuck Lauren's an Allen Arkin. So I did that. And then finally, I said, I've never done a period picture. Every movie I make is about contemporary situations and all of that. So they've been Franklin series came up eight episodes ago all year. And after that, I realized I was tired, you know, deeply tired. And I took a look at it, but a lifetime, a lifetime tired. And I sort of stopped working. Not retired, stopped working. But I love not working. I love not working. Well, it's given you a chance to sit and review how well you spent your years. I mean, good. You know what, Michael, we ask a lot of that. It's funny. You just answered the thing. We ask a lot of people. We say, you know, you've done this and you've been, you've known for this, Sean, or whatever.

59:18And we say, is there anything that you haven't done? And I like the idea that you, you kept asking yourself, what is the thing I haven't done? And really gone for it. And there's a sort of, I think that's a great way to approach it, right? To like, how can I challenge myself now? I mean, is that what you would say to young actors to have that mindset? Well, I don't know what to say to them now, but it's so damn tough. It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, no, there's no, I mean, cast, you don't see a casting agent anymore. You can't do a self tape. They never, they never even have offices anymore. You go in and see your casting agent, you know, they get to know it. It's so tough. I've got three kids, all her actors, they're doing okay. But it's tough. But the finish this off, so all that happened then, back when I had the cancer, there was a guy named Shane Salerno, who, he didn't rewrite for me really early on. And I was shocked when you, how few people reach out to me with cancer.

1:00:21Maybe something about cancer, they don't want to get, you know, but nobody, they get much, Shane who I hardly knew, he, every day would write me these, you know, you can do a kick and you're going to make your own me fine, no, you can't kick it. And it was, Shane's got a, a literary agency kind of company now. And then he just kept pushing me, hockey me about doing a book and doing a book. And then I thought about it, and I think, you know, between Dad and I now, we got 90 years, 90 years of stories in the film industry. 160 movies. My dad was a very prolific, you wrote about 10 books. So just for a legacy, I figured, you know, I would keep it going for a legacy to write the book. And then also for my memory, because, yeah, you forget a lot of it. Were you, were you, were you happy with your level of recall? I have a hard time remembering last week. But it like, was that, what, what was that process like?

1:01:21I would imagine you wouldn't know how good it's going to be until you start getting into it. But it sounds like you, you've, it's crystal clear on all of this incredible detail. Jason, it's, I'll tell you my secret right now, hire someone to start looking, going back over your diary and just start placing it together each year, because you have no idea. And then in the book, I talk about it a lot. We're, the years of some heavy drug use. Yeah. You can mess it up and be careful what you wish for. It was all of a sudden. I had a big production company. I get finance movies. I had people running it. I lost that ability to pick one thing at a time. And, and I was a little overwhelmed. Yeah. You know, had issues with my son. He was in federal prison for seven and a half years, my first marriage. So I looked back and happy to talk about the, the demise of the downfall of cocaine for one.

1:02:22Yeah. Yeah. Same. Same. You, you, when you, when you do look back and you, and you've written this book and you talk about all these things, and these are, it's just life, right? I mean, these, these are things that happen in life. And I, I feel like now we're all in our mid to late 50s. I mean, you know, you play, you can play 40s right now. 30s, maybe. Yeah. But, but, you know, when you look back, are you, are you despite the things that you, you know, the great success and think in, and, and, and, and strong, tough times when you look back, do you go like, hey, you know what? It kind of, you feel okay about it in that way. Like do you feel? Oh, shit, yeah. I mean, yeah. But first of all, you know, Hollywood royalty. I mean, you know, which really this is not both they really pisses me off because I don't know a career We're a father of mother don't try to help their son or daughter get into their business and this and that and why why they picked on this because of the other well-known

1:03:24aspect of it, but yeah, no, I like I said what arrived man has been it's been unbelievable and um other other than Too much drug abuse. I can't sure Sorry, I was gonna say it's funny. You say the nipple thing It's like we don't chase down when we see a plumbing truck that says McGlin in sons That's what I was gonna say it's not exclusive to the entertainment industry there are sons and daughters everywhere But they make it like it's like we're the only one you know, well you you manage to To whether that all very well seemingly is there something that you can say to the the children of Of parents are kids or you know kids in the entertainment But kids in any industry that feel like they might Have a burden of living through or up to the shadow of the generation before them is there is there something that that really helped you

1:04:24Navigate that as successfully as you did Recognizing good material. I mean not not counting on it. I mean getting something The problem we all have is we don't we don't play it in some in it We don't paint it. We don't write you know, we're standing there, but a good piece of material man a good piece of material Helps the helps the use a Long right well, yeah, but but personally that that sort of conversation you have with yourself about Am I even going to try to Live up to or even exceed What has come before me? What what what what what what was it that you identified in yourself that gave you kind of the the in the inner strength to do that? I think it was an inherited from my father who had incredible stamina tenacity was a motherfucker and You know was just really

1:05:24really really tough And could could you know hang on there? This is is we all know this is not a business if rejection is is going to menge over you know It's it's rejection is the fuel. I think it makes you tougher and and stronger and I think you have to create your own your own identity You have to trust in yourself rather than Um Try to become an image of a relative Life yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I just I made you to now and I've just recently said Hey man with all this there's not a lot of two generation movie stars There I can't Get pat yourself on the back man, and you know get Yeah, well You sure that that I would have been another great alternate title for your for your book there a big big big pat on the back Cuz I tried I tried I wasn't gonna call it before I forget

1:06:30Great title, but they also wait wait they did househeimers, which is probably I you you mentioned that you had somebody go through all your diaries and stuff and I actually am legit want to know Did you have you been good about keeping a really good diary all these years of stuff that you've done? Oh? No, I am no diary at all. I mean I just have my my secretary's you know my address my address where I would I mean I forget what year I mean a movie Then slowly doing that and then I was forced enough to work with enough actors With better memories than I did Oh great. Yeah, oh great. Well listen I'm gonna let you go and I cannot thank you enough for doing this and talking with us and and I know once I read the book I'm gonna thank you again for for putting it all down on paper. So Huge huge thanks to all you've done Including this this hour with us today. Thanks Michael We'll appreciate you guys do a wonderful job

1:07:31So keep it up. I'll be okay Oh, we'll see you there take care of the role. All right. Thank you, sir. Thanks Mike. Bye. Bye Well We didn't even get to fail We didn't get to basic instinct or the guy know I know like I want to ask him about I will not be ignored there His relationship with Danny DeVito that's still I know man Jason and like I know I wanted to ask but I think let's bring him back. Let's do a two for this guy I think Michael Douglas needs minimum two episodes. Yeah, for sure. I'm really stunning what what he's what he's done Well, it's funny when he when he was on Will and Grayson I was like I want to ask him about all that and then I he's done today I was like I want to ask him about all that and I didn't do either can't do it I know but gotta read his book. Yeah, I guess you gotta read his book which he'll but it's just It's it's stunning and he was saying you know Yeah, it's hard to come out to step out from The shadow of somebody like Kirk Douglas. It's you know like as he said Spartacus for Christ. He just now alone

1:08:35Yeah, yeah, yeah, and not he he not only did it. I mean he did it. He's father's like yeah He really did and and because he had so many roles that were so different and and and was so long lasting over so many decades in generations of people who appreciate him as a movie star Yeah, it's it's it's remarkable truly remarkable. I always reference fatal attraction is the perfect movie scene to scene like Just the way his belt is is incredible and you know that you know that different ending right is that Adrian Lind yeah, Adrian line Yeah, what's that? Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, he's amazing, but you know she wasn't shot in the fucking head at the end originally She killed herself. She sliced her own neck. Oh really? Yeah, and that you can see they shoot it. They shot yeah, you can watch it Yeah, it's wild and I think the whole so they tested that and it didn't that's exactly right and the audience is like well That's not very satisfying. I want to see her get killed by you know, so I mean oh wow and so yeah It was wild to see it because she and then she frames him because his fingerprints are on the knife that she kills herself with and then the cock show up

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