Neil deGrasse Tyson, David Corn, and the Truth Behind the Curtain

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1:01Welcome to the Jobfugal Sand Podcast. You can listen to the full show Live Monday through Friday 9 a.m. to noon Pacific on Sirius XM channel 127. We are live and interactive and in your ears for the next three hours broadcasting live from High above Gotham and the Howard Stern Tower. I am here with Miss Theaharpur our producer, our boss the Mac the executive producer, the Alpha and the Omega Chris Boom Boom House Elf runs this monster like the Tyranti is from the beautiful south. And for the next three hours we're digging your calls at 866-997-4748-866-997. Grit what kind of show today you might ask what kind or your or axe even I'm glad you axe it here's what we got. We got some science we got politics we got spirituality Neil deGrasse Tyson returns to our show later this hour to talk about his brand new book.

2:03It's called Lost in Space and it's a copy table book of 5,000 amazing facts. It's like the most popular book I've ever seen it's the first book I've ever seen that's a copy table book that you could fight off an intruder with but. Pretty much everyone of every age and every background will love this book and it's great to have him back in our studio he used to be on after us in hour number two one of the best journalist in America David corn of mother Jones and MSNBC joins us to talk about his new book. It's all about how Russia won and it's called how Russia won and it's going to make you very inspired and probably a bit angry hour number three is the God squad Dylan neighbor crews the tattoo the lotion and pastor December rose our back. We are so thrilled to have them join us for Christianity with a lot of extra profanity so if you want to talk to Dylan in December or or David corn about Trumpism or Neil deGrasse Tyson when you call us at 866-997-4748. Let us know who it is you'd like to speak to happy birthday to some friends of this show Molly Shannon's got a birthday today Richard Marx as a birthday Miss Jennifer Tilly as she I don't know if she's on the show but she's a friend of the show I've interviewed her on TV also Mickey Rourke born this date in 1952 he has never done this show but I'm never going to stop trying Peter Fock would have been 99 years old today and I got to interview him once and he signed a DVD for me and BB King he would have been 101 and I got his autograph once at the Grammys

3:28All right 866-997-4748 our number 866-997-Gurrett we we we we got a lot to get to today in a first the European Union has extended an associate membership to Canada Prime Minister Mark Carney is the smartest political player in our hemisphere it seems and he has been on this month's long goodwill tour of European countries and Asian countries and he's sure in a partnership independent of the United States. So now Canada is joining the EU as an associate it's like I will let's date I'm not going to join your polyamorous cult but let's just let's just date six people are dead in Southern California after a news helicopter crashed while covering a bus accident for a third time the house voted to pass a war power's resolution to rain in Donald Trump's stupid illegal deeply expensive war on Iran this time seven Republicans cross the aisle to vote yes friends you should be able to get a vote for the United States friends you should plan on there being more of these kinds of votes in the next 47 days and you will see the number rise from seven to above 10 as we get closer to a midterm election with a historically unpopular stupid war the State Department has put out sanctions and visa restrictions against certain South Africans for what it calls ongoing anti white discrimination.

4:52Don't forget that Ronald Reagan defended apartheid folks like their their medit South Africa for anti white discriminates. It's almost like Elon Musk is about a second policy huh the US approved nearly three billion dollars in a deal to send upwards of 60,000 heavy bombs and large munitions to Israel so congrats folks your pain for that for the first time Japan is registered more than a hundred thousand citizens aged one hundred or older and Pennsylvania's got a fourth measles staff an unvaccinated teenager at the US. And it looks like Putin has sold out Donald Trump yet again and Trump won't care because he probably won't be told but Putin has been allowing Russian spy satellites it appears to feed Iran the Intel provided to strike and kill US forces. How do we get this information to our Republican friends CNN reported cosmos 2573 one of Russia's elite spy satellites it was this constellation of 14 different Russian spacecraft. That were tracked flying over Prince Sultan air base near re odds Saudi Arabia two days before the big Iranian attack there which took the lives of American troops.

5:59I want you to think about this when you hear Donald Trump and his revolting son out there attacking Zelensky and saying that Zelensky is the bad guy the war in Ukraine ends when Putin stops fighting if Ukraine stops fighting they all die. So that's on Putin Putin is not a good guy Trump takes orders from Putin and now we know Russia is been helping Iran to kill US troops to US officials to see and then they have evidence the satellites fed Intel back to Iran that a did at least some of those precision strikes the one on March 27th it wounded US personnel at destroyed aircraft our airborne radar and command plane in the Middle East and Iran tracked it to a location outside its usual spot. So thanks Putin 866 997 4748 is our number 866 997 GRR RIT one last announcement tomorrow. I fly to California. We're going to do the show from California the next couple days. I've got a big wonderful event at a church and semi Valley on Thursday and then I'm doing a big show on Friday night with some big friends of this show Wendy Liebman and Rita Rudner and Jason Alexander and Kyrus Altonovich.

7:10That's going to be at the Skurball Center in Los Angeles and we're doing one Stephanie Miller sexy liberal comedy to her date this whole year. It's also going to be an L.A. next month October 24th. That's a Saturday at the Saban Theater in Beverly Hills. Please come and join us featuring Stephanie Miller House barks, Angela and me in spite of popular demand and are very special guest for the show will include Mr. Glenn Kirschner senator Adam Schiff. He's joined us on stage a few times, but it's his first time doing it as a senator with a better office. And the last Jedi himself Mark Hamill joins us on stage yet again guys you don't want to miss this show. There's a couple of VIP meet and greet seats as well. Go to sexy liberal calm. It's our only show we're doing all year for the midterms and I have not done enough stand up to have 20 minutes ready to go. So let's see what happens 866 997 4748 let's let's do a show. I'm so excited that Neil deGrasse Tyson's coming back, but I got to say we talk about the yesterday friends on the air and I don't want to get anyone offended. So let's see if I can get through this without in raging anybody on the left or right. I didn't have 2026 forces me to defend.

8:22I've spent my entire adult life preparing for the moments when I will have to defend free speech. I did not prepare for the moment when free speech would require me to defend. No, no, no, no, no, guys, do you know how much I hate defending. Mackelmore or Mac Lumbore if you pronounce it phonetically. This is not how I pictured my civil liberties journey in the radio friends. I'm all about I want to defend dissident journalists here. I want to defend whistleblowers. I want to defend people imprisoned by authoritarian regimes. That's why I came to holler about instead. I'm sitting here going look everybody. I know I know it's Mackelmore. We can all take a breath. I mean, you see how the is looking at me right now for doing this, but here we are. Because Mackelmore said free Palestine from the stage at MetLife Stadium. He performed Heinz Hall his protest song about Gaza while images of this war played behind him. I don't even like calling it a war because normally a war is two sides fighting each other. You've got Hamas having a terrorist attack killing a thousand plus innocent Israelis. And then you've got Israel having a military attack.

9:38Killing 70,000 Palestinians, 20,000 children. So now Mackelmore has been removed from the rest of the dates in the US of Ed Sheeran's tour because the promoter said that multiple venues would not host the shows if Mackelmore was on the bill. And that's Robert Kraft. Robert Kraft didn't have a problem with Kanye West performing in his stadiums after writing a song about how awesome Hitler was. But Mackelmore says Kraft told Ed Sheeran that Mackelmore couldn't perform at Gillette Stadium. And then he rallied the other stadium owners. And the promoter confirms it. The venues objected to this. Okay. So Kraft said his concern beyond not getting caught using hookers because that's what he does. He said his concern was creating a welcoming environment. And that Mackelmore's recent comments on stage in his broader history crossed a line into what Kraft considers anti-Semitism or hateful expression. Okay. So this is good. Let's now we get to have the great American debate. Right. Can you be fired from a private concert tour because somebody doesn't like what you said. Technically. Of course you can. Hell yeah. It's the private market. That's the thing.

10:52The first amendment restricts what the government doesn't doesn't do. The first amendment does not give Mackelmore a constitutional right to open for Ed Sheeran. Okay. That's why the story is a lot more interesting than the bumper sticker version you're getting on Twitter. Because saying the first amendment doesn't apply. Okay. But that's not the same as saying there is no free speech issue here. Because they're absolutely his friends. There's a massive difference between the government can't imprison you for criticizing the Israeli government's policies. And a handful of enormously powerful rich guys and private institutions can make politically controversial speech so economically toxic that artists will be forced to keep their mouth shut. Those are those are different questions, right. And this is the modern free speech program. Nobody has to arrest you and put you in a cell. They don't got a banyor song. They just got to make a few phone calls. And now your tour has become a hostage negotiation. So I want to be fair.

11:54Private property matters. Yes, a stadium owner gets to decide who performs in his stadium. Liberals can be all mad about this, but a promoter gets to decide who is on the bill. Ed Sheeran gets to decide who opens for Ed Sheeran. And no one's entitled to a gig just because they have a huge Instagram following in a Grammy. And you liked I'm going to pop some tags 10 years ago. All right. That's capitalism. Not arguing with this. But capitalism also means we should be able to look at the concentration of power and ask. Okay, who gets to decide exactly what speech is too dangerous? Who gets to decide that Mackelmore speech is anti-Semitism, but Kanye saying, Hi, I'll Hitler is entertainment. Who gets to decide what's dangerous? This isn't some guy in a bar saying, I don't like your act. The biggest venues in America, then you so big they don't have roofs for them. This is a touring ecosystem. I'm not taking that away. I read it. Sheeran's statement. I get it. He doesn't want to deprive people of their livelihood for this big tour. And we're talking promoters and sponsors and artists and caterers and truck drivers all intertwined when an artist discovers that one controversial political statement can potentially threaten access to a whole chain of enormous venues.

13:12Well, then you don't need a government censor. Do you? You got something subtly now. You got self-censorship. And that's how capitalism does it. Self-censorship is the most polite form of censorship because we can all pretend nothing really happened. No one banned you. You just became mysteriously unavailable for the next eight stadium dates. It's very different. Enjoy your complimentary tote bag. Okay, so so Macklemore's defenders and I'm one of them and I don't like that. I am not happy defending Macklemore, but the Macklemore liberation front is saying, look what happened. He said free Palestine. Now he's off the tour. Robert Kraft is saying, no, no, it's not about Palestine. It's about anti-Semitism and this pattern of rhetoric that many Jewish people find deeply offensive. And that that matters. And I will be the first to say that Macklemore was dead to me when he put on that anti-Semitic costume and mask 12 years ago. You remember that? I mean, it looked like a protocols of the elders of Zyron underuse. I mean, he apologized. He claimed he didn't know the giant knows mask was anti-Semitic.

14:16And the ADL said, okay, we believe you we accept your apology. So okay, but you know, I still don't need to be a fan. Don't hate the guy. Just, you know, not going to burn lean tissue listening and criticizing the Israeli government is in no way anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitism is real Jewish people have every right to demand it be taken seriously and non Jews should demand it's taken seriously. But criticizing the Israeli government and saying anti-Semitism is real, those two statements can coexist. They have to. We should all be able to say, I oppose the Israeli government's policies. We should also be able to say at the same time, I oppose anti-Semitism. It ain't hard. Y'all can say Palestinians deserve freedom and human rights and y'all can say Jewish people deserve safety and dignity. We can all condemn Hamas's evil attacks on Israeli civilians and we should also be able to condemn Israel's evil attacks that harm Palestinian civilians in Gaza and the West Bank. Why heck? Mike Huckabee just learned how to do that last week.

15:19We should be able to criticize a government without treating an entire religion or ethnicity as responsible for that civilian government's actions, right? I mean, it's a little messy, but that's what a functioning public sphere looks like. It's uncomfortable. People are going to say things you hate. That is the feature, not the bug. And here's where Macklemore actually makes this argument even more irritating for me because I don't have to like the guy. I don't have to like his music, his lyrics, his speeches. I don't have to, I'm allowed to think the song Same Love is desperately overrated and sounds like a straight guy who really thinks he's figured shit out. I don't have to think every analogy dude makes is historically precise. I don't have to pretend that free Palestine is some magically context free phrase. I can think he's turning a concert into a political rally. And I can still say let the dude talk. That's the bargain, right? Free speech is an award we give people because they agree with us. I mean, the test isn't do I approve the test is do I want the people with power over my microphone to have the authority to decide which political opinions are commercially allowed to be heard.

16:30And suddenly I'm defending God damn Macklemore and I hate that the I'm again it personally is offensive to me that I'm doing this. Guys and this the international concluded in December of 2024 that Israel's military actions and policies in Gaza constitute genocide under international law. There's no anti-Semitism there. United Nations Commission of inquiry concluded September of last year Israeli forces committed acts of genocide in Gaza. The international court of justice ordered provisional measures finding a plausible risk of genocide. Human rights watch says that the authorities have committed acts of genocide by depriving the Gaza population of basic necessities. The international association of genocide scholars adopted a resolution declaring the military campaign does meet the legal definition of genocide and right there from Israel. But to sell them in physicians for human rights of Israel concluded last year that Israel's committing genocide to different Israeli human rights groups. And there's another layer of hypocrisy on this we have watched artists say crazy outrageous things for decades right we've seen artists defend dictators and say racist things and misogynist things and anti-Semitic things.

17:36And we've seen artists say things so deranged and the responses well that's there are that's their personal opinions separate the man from them the mark don't censor them let the market decide. Let the audience is boo let people stop by and tickets let the radio station stop playing the song let the sponsors walk away that's the marketplace of ideas. But when the response is we're going to coordinate enough power that you can't get on the stage at one of the biggest stages in the country. I think the rest of us are allowed to ask whether we're still talking about an artistic disagreement or something more systemic. That's why I don't call what happened to Michael Moore first amendment violation so first amendment issue and if Ed Sheeran was smart he would sell it that way. But this is about power government doesn't have to ban speech for speech to become expensive Donald Trump has shown us that speech can get really expensive because access is controlled by a small number of rich guys. And that's important when we see billionaires and entertainment and politics and media fuse together.

18:39Like Robert Kraft. There's claims online about his connections his donations Israel his friendship with Jeff Epstein his 2019 prostitution case oh you should Google it and some of those facts are documented some of them are just insinuations some of it's just the internet doing their bullshit right. Here's here's a few pieces of information and some screenshots and a 900 page indictment no you know if you have evidence of wrongdoing show it if you have an allegation then call it an allegation. If we're demanding accountability we have to be accountable to the truth ourselves we don't need to lie. This principle applies to everyone the folks who want to defend Israel that's me the people who want to condemn Israel's civilian government that's me the people who want to defend Palestine that's me the people who want to condemn Hamas. Me too and the people who hate Macklemore and the people who defend Macklemore crap on both of them too. Macklemore says it's worth it because losing the tour gave him a larger platform to talk about Palestine and he's right would any of us be talking about Macklemore now.

19:39So congrats Robert Kraft you tried to remove this guy from the stage and you gave him a much bigger stage and now everyone's talking about Macklemore and the story's not going to go away people who haven't thought about this guy since thrift shop are googling why we're talking about Macklemore. Are googling why why is Macklemore fighting with the billionaires. That's the attention economy that's how it works now trump doesn't realize any trump doesn't realize he's made Mark carney the man of the year and Robert Kraft doesn't realize he's made Macklemore the free speech hero of the year. Take away the mic and turn the controversy into the mic itself that's the lesson you can't build a free society by forcing us all to agree we have to have these disagreements it's healthy for the society. Sometimes that means hearing a political opinion that makes you angry and sometimes it means listening to fucking Macklemore I know I'm sorry we're all making sacrifices and I've gone on too long so let me wrap this up. If you think free speech is that you can say whatever you want provided nobody powerful enough to punish you gets upset that's not freedom that's permission and permission can be revoked.

20:43So against my better judgment I am defending Macklemore not because he's Macklemore not because I agree with everything the guy says not because free Palestine ends any argument. I'm defending this much more irritating principle that artists and journalists and activists and people online and ordinary folks should be able to say whatever they want politically without institutions deciding those opinions make them professionally radioactive. If Macklemore wants to spend the next three years explaining to us this is how he is to increasingly annoying protest songs well then that's my punishment for believing in free speech but Kanye deserves the same rights to. Good God you're welcome America we're at 866 997 47 48 866 997 grit can I take a call before the break Miss Harper let me go to beach side bill in Florida hello bill welcome you're on progress. Hey afternoon John hi and the hopefuls well wait wait I got you on speaker phone get me off the speaker you monster good here okay how are you I got you what's going good doing goods.

21:45I've got to talk to Dr Tyson about the Nancy Grace Roman telescope oh okay I didn't realize that okay I can put you on hold if you want we can see if we can get to that if we can. All right let me put you back on the wall see what we can do what what did you want to ask him. The Nancy Grace Roman telescope the space telescope the one they just launched okay. Nancy Grace yeah okay I'm going to I'm going to put you back on hold and we'll we'll see what we can do how's that he's coming here talk about a book but I got to talk to him about weapons in the sky as well. Okay so then we're all set our number is 866 997 47 48 866 997 grit again we got a pack one today we'll be back very shortly with Neil de Grass Tyson later in the show it's David corn and the God Squad in hour number three by the way it was on this date in 1940 that president Roosevelt signed into the law of the selective training and service act which set up the first peacetime military draft in US history 86 years ago today.

22:45I say this for any of you with kids who are draft age because I ran things never going to stop and happy anniversary to rappers delight by the sugar hill gang released on this date. Oh my God 47 years ago first rap song to chart on the top 100 and 20 years ago today Bob Dylan became the oldest person to ever top billboards album charts with a number one for the album modern times. Now he's 85 and he's still on tour and today would have been the 100 second birthday of Lauren McCall. All right we are at 86 6 997 47 48 quick break back in just a moment this is progress. When Donald Trump was inaugurated like all presidents he swore no to preserve protect and defend the Constitution. Instead Donald Trump has decided to swerve deflec and up and the Constitution and treat it like a terms and conditions page. I'm Professor Corey Brechneider and I'm deeply unqualified comedian John Fugelstein. We'd like to invite you to listen to the oath in the office podcast where every week we interpret the Constitution and hold Trump accountable to his oath.

23:51It's a podcast that offers real insight on how to take action against tyranny and mayhem because despair is not a strategy. We'll hold him to his pledge despite his threats to democracy and the law itself. It's a podcast that's all about hope for what a real democracy should look like from an esteemed respected constitutional scholar and a deeply neurotic comedian who thought the emoluments clause was a breakfast item. Subscribe to the oath in the office where every week we talk about how citizens can preserve our democracy and fight back against the threat to democracy. Subscribe to the oath in the office on the Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcast.

24:54Thank you. I was just calling in. I call it every now and then I'm trying to fight raising a toddler in this world as a quaker man and trying to teach your peace and pacifism and you know that there's also consequences for your words and that's right. I think the hardest things I've seen recently dealing with the cash with teller view and all these things that just Trump is getting away with saying, you know, and at the same time I've been watching to show the newsroom. Yes, it's a very well made show because you know it's Jeff Gaines plays an amazing part as someone who's a news anchor that's willing to change his ways and admit his wrongdoing and talk about his feelings and the thing is the stories they're writing would be considered adorable now. That's right, but again, but that's you got to find a journalist who's willing in the corporate media landscape to make that kind of sacrifice and that's why it's called fiction. Jeff Daniels is great in that very fictional role.

25:54Yes, it's an amazing one, but you know my point is, you know, I've always trying to live off the fact of talk first. You know, there's no need for violence. That's right. It's scary that it's getting to a point where you've seen in history through all the revolutions in the world and everything where people stop being held accountable for the truth. Yeah, and now trying to raise a kid in this role and tell her that what you say you're responsible for and it's not hard. This has been my whole point like trying to raise a boy while Trump is president. How do you teach a boy don't lie. Don't be racist. Respect women. Do your homework. Don't launder money for the Russians in New York real estate. How do you teach a child these lessons? Well, the skies are running around. Taylor, you're a quaker and the quakers have shown me for my whole life. How fucked up organized religion can be and how the actual teachings of Jesus are still threatening to organize religion. So I thank you, but our guest is here speaking of organized religion. We're going to take a trip that requires no passport, no space suit. I'm excited to talk this book with you. Our guide is one of the most recognizable science communicators on your planet.

26:56You all know astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson. Shucks, his show star talk used to follow us on another channel. You guys know his books and you know his broadcasting and you know his brilliance. But the new book is the coffee table book that you are going to have to get this year. It's co-written with head writer Lindy next Walker. It's called Lost in Space, 5,000 facts for navigating the universe. It is a massive visually stunning coffee table book. And it is a book. I'm going to say this for everyone of every age, every nationality, every background. It is the most fun coffee table book you can see. And he's done it again, taken incredibly impossibly complicated subjects and invited the rest of us into a really easy conversation, Neil deGrasse Tyson. It's nice to have you back. Dude, I'm a little worried because in that very warm introduction, you use the phrase, your planet earth. Yes. Does this, are you alien? Are you? Maybe I'm a tree that way. A little bit known then. I just slipped out sentences can slip out. I identify as an outsider and one of the tribe.

27:56I can flip. It's so good to see you. You look perfect. Yeah, thank you. It's been a while. Been too long. You didn't call, you don't write anymore. I know. I know. Well, you're so busy. I haven't so busy. It's been crazy. But I mean, I love this book. Yeah, it's what you've done is so commercial. It is, it's, it's, it's, it's 5,000 facts to navigate the universe for you to navigate. And of course, you can Google facts, right? So then why, why care about a book such as this? But it's got, the facts are, are, are curated. Yeah. To be especially tasty and interesting and might make you smile and it'll create the urge to tell others. Just little, little things like did you know that the first, the person who discovered the planet Uranus first called it George? I'm just, you know, you can't Google that. I mean, you, you know, you don't know, even know that that's a Googleable thing. That's right. Yeah. To ask Uranus might have preferred that over the last hundred years too. It's discovered, did it in the late 18th century when King George, he's a Brit, King George

29:00was king. So he's doing the right thing. You're named it after the people in power, all right? To another person in power, rename it and I'm glad that doesn't happen anymore. No, of course not. No, no one kisses up to power anymore. And so the, so just a fascinating little bit of history there. So it's about 30 years of books of the day that had Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and George. I was thinking about this because when I think 5,000 facts in the book, and that's why it's for everybody, like you can put this on anyone's coffee table and kids to see you. I'm produced by National Geographic Bookages. It's gorgeous. Which means it is beautiful. The book is, because they don't do ugly. They don't know how to do ugly. But like, how do you decide which facts to leave out? You got 5,000 facts in the book, right? Like, what makes a fact memorable other than Justin Trude? There were no facts left. The universe. But what do you makes a tidbit memorable more than just interesting? Yeah, you know, in the news circles, they call them sound bites, right?

30:02Is it informative? Interesting. Makes you smile. And you want to come back for another one. That's the ideal sound bite. So these, I'd like to think, if you grab a handful of these, put it in your pocket, go to your next cocktail party. You're going to be the life of the party. Just a little fact. Like, for example, let's look at the planets. We already gave you one fact that, you know, Uranus was first named George. How about Saturn? Saturn is density is lower than that of water. Which, if you had a bath tub big enough, Saturn would float. I knew that as a kid. And I wanted a rubber Saturn instead of a rubber ducky. What planet or moon in our solar system has changed the most because of discoveries made just during your lifetime? Oh, not, which planet has changed? Which planet? Our understanding. Our homo sapien understanding has changed the most. Here, I would say one of Jupiter's moons, I.O.

31:02Not Europa. Not Europa. I.O. Okay. You know, I.O. is one of the, what we call the Galilean moons. It was discovered by Galileo. And, oh, by the way, when he saw Jupiter had four moons visible to his telescope, that went around Jupiter. He tracked them. So, wait a minute. If they go around Jupiter, it means they're not going around us. That's right. It means we're not the center of all motion. That's right. That, you know, Vatican love that. I had that to the list of what the Vatican does not love. So, one of his I.O. And it turns out it went from a dot of light orbiting Jupiter to a moon, of course. We would later learn upon flybys that it is the most vulcanically active object in the solar system. It is raging, continuous volcano. And it's kept hot by tidal stress from Jupiter and other surrounding satellites

32:02that pump heat into it. If you ever played racket sports, you'll see, oh, let's warm up the ball. Right. You might have heard that if you ever played. That's a literal fact. You're hitting the ball, deforming it, and it returns to its shape. And the energy you put in by deforming it stays there and it warms it up. That's what's happening to a moon of Jupiter. And so, it went from just a dot of light to, oh, my gosh. Wow. Yeah. Avoid the place. I'm going to go. Arthur C. Clark always taught me Europa was what the moon of Jupiter did. Oh, so you save us all. So Europa is also kept warm, but not that warm. And you remember, you got your good history there. I read 2010 as a kid. There you go. The book turned me on. The book is equal to two. Yeah. I mean, the original book is great, but the sequel blew my mind. Right, right. And so it made Europa a bigger fact of what's going on there. Because Europa has an ocean of liquid water. That's right. It's the beneath its surface. It's icy. This is in the book.

33:02And speculation, yeah. Yeah. And it's the water has been there as long as water has been on earth. And there's more water there than all the waters of earth's oceans. Even though the moon is smaller, it's like 100% water under the ice. So, and... And... Warm it by a nearby volcano moon? No, no. It's also the title stresses. Yeah. So, we ask, you know, all biological evidence says that life began in our oceans. Crawled out and became land-based. There's an ocean. So, I want to go to Europa, cut a hole in the ice, and go looking for... And go ice fishing. That's what I want to do. I love that you actually begin the book on earth. And that so much of it is about rather than just launching us into deep space. And you point out that if I want to get this right, if the sun were the size of a hot tub, Earth would be roughly the size of a... Sesame seed. Okay, actually, so it turns out... It took... Interesting you found that. That fact has a calculation error in it.

34:05You monster. What do you think? What do you think? Yeah. So, when the calculation was done, the factor became a fraction. Okay. And then it landed wrong on the page. So, so, so, here's the better example. Please. If the sun were a... Were a... A... Bagel. The size of a bagel. Okay. Okay. Then, Earth would be the size of a sesame seed on that bagel. Okay. That's still small. Well, yeah, but that's what's fascinating to me, because scale is so difficult for the human brain. We can understand one mile. But, and this is something I bet you talked about with Segan. We can understand a billion. But, once you start talking about light years and billions of galaxies, our intuition seems to break down. It's completely... It breaks down completely. We understand hundreds and thousands, maybe millions. You've walked through cities that have millions of people in it. You feel... But, billions not really. No.

35:06No. It's hard to... Fat them. Let alone trillions. Oh my gosh. And so, you know, I did the math on this. If you... If you had a trillion dollars, just in case anyone ever had a trillion dollars, I'd just... In case... Hypothetically... Science fans out there? Yeah. Hypothetically... Hypothetically, if you did enough evil thing to have a trillion dollars, if one person could die... The only way you get a trillion dollars... Sure, there's lots of ethical ways to do it when you're born in South Africa. But, go on, please. Oh, stop. So, I... I'm going to make sure I get the numbers right here, because I did the math. So, give me a second while I looked this up. I guess we know the question while I... Yeah, I will, because my number's here. Let me ask you a more important question, by May. It's not in the book, but we just found out we have weapons in orbit. And the US... Oh, just... I mean, don't worry about it. Well, weapon is a broad word. I know, and you should know. No, no, no. I'm not going to say don't worry about it. That's... Non-Orbit Space Control Weapon. That trivializes it. Let me just say that... He's doing math while he's laying my fears about...

36:09About global war. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, I... The announcement doesn't mean the US has deployed nukes in orbit. The current public statement only says on-orbit Space Control Weapons without saying what the system says. Yeah, I'll tell you about that in a minute. Okay. So, you're still working, sorry. I got hit, right, Trillionaire. Go ahead. Okay, you ready? So, you know this, if you wanted to count to a Trillion, it would take you 31,000 years. So, if you have a nerdy kid that's annoying you, just say, go sit in the corner, count to a Trillionaire. Yeah. Yeah, they'll never come back. Okay. And... Oh, damn, I lost it. Where did it go? And... That's okay. Yeah. So, with your Space Noapons, the... People think of Star Wars and, you know, Fulton torpedoes and this sort of thing. Fire and loud explosions in space. Yeah. Neither of which can happen. Right. You'd know too much about this. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You... They don't give this job to chimpsons. I used to be your lead in show. I had to know about this stuff. Very good, very impressed.

37:09So, we've known, by the way, we have thousands of satellites in orbit that do all manner of things. Yes. Some of it involves commerce. Some of it involves national security. Others are spy satellites, this sort of thing. The value of these satellites goes beyond just what it costs to design, build and launch them. Because, for example, the network of satellites that enables Uber is a billion dollar market cap, whatever it is. Right. Okay? That's enabled by space assets. It is not un... Realists... It's not unreasonable to ask our military to protect our space assets. Yeah. Because they're... We have business interests, there's national security issues. So, that's not weird. We can say Starlink has helped human life. We can say that. Well, okay. More... Yes. Yes. I don't want to get too far away from the book, but I... Right. Starlink is a whole other conversation, but yeah. As you know, Starlink is delivering internet to remote places.

38:11Yeah. Okay. But my point is that we need to think of space not as this exotic frontier, which of course it is, but it's a place where we have assets and we want to protect them. Fine. All right. Now, it has turned out that satellites of adversaries have navigated close to our satellites and harassed them. That's right. Electromagnetically harassed them. And then we say, well, let's move our satellite a little farther away. And then it sort of chases us down. And then we're using fuel to do that, shortening the lifetime of our satellites. Right. So there's a lot of this satellite chess game going on up there. And so we have finally joined the ranks of those who have these aggressive actions regarding satellites in space. Now, one of the aggressive actions you don't want to destroy a satellite, because it comes with bajillion pieces, and each of those pieces becomes a projectile. They'll destroy other satellites. Is this a Kessler syndrome?

39:11Or the Kessler syndrome? They are. They are read your book. Oh, me. And you end up peeing in your own bathtub. Exactly. By doing this. So the way to do it is to disable the satellite, not blow it to some of the reins. Right. And so the future of space war is going to be satellite harassment. Because if you wanted to harm a place on earth, doing it from a satellite is not efficient. Is the satellite over your plate? No, we got to wait for it to come around again. And is it aimed that way? Or are you right? No. Meanwhile, we can launch an ICBM on earth and hit a target anywhere on earth within 45 minutes. Yeah. Not only that, if we wanted to, we could take out, you don't, again, you don't want to obliterate a satellite, but if we had to, we could obliterate a satellite with an eight-minute of launch of a kinetic kill. So I'm saying a lot of this is sort of performative.

40:11A lot of it is the oligarch prick waving in the atmosphere. Yeah. While the actual climate change they won't address, it's still the physical threat to us on the earth. Is that what you're saying? That was a different way of saying it. I was almost not scared from it. It was so lovely. Yeah. You have this beautiful idea in the book that sunlight warming our face today began as photons at the sun's core when the neanderthals were still around. Yes. This is what I love about this book. I mean, what is that to you about the journey of life? You can't just Google. You wouldn't even know how to Google. How would I know what a Google left fact? I don't even know what I'm talking about. Exactly. So light travels very fast, as you surely know. You're on the beach, photons of light are hitting your buttocks, and they left the sun, left the sun, gapped the space between the sun and the earth and got here in eight minutes and twenty seconds. Yeah. But that photon was born in the center of the sun, and it's torturous to get out of the sun. There's no free path, and it's called, mathematically, it's called a random walk.

41:15Oh, yeah. You know, three steps forward, two steps back, one step to the side, three steps to the other side, and the photon is just working its way out, and by the, and the projectile Mary makes a lot more sense. Thank you for that. That's true. So, so a photon takes about a half a million years to get out of the sun. But I love that because we're looking at the sun and seeing how it was eight minutes and twenty seconds ago. So does that mean in a very literal sense that astronomy is about looking into the past? Always. Yeah, I love that. Always. And in fact, that sounds weird, but there's a profound feature of looking into the past. Because our telescopes are basically time machines in that regard. Yeah. But the feature is, if we discovered laws of physics on Earth, here and now, and we see those laws of physics manifested halfway across the universe, we get to say the laws of physics are constant, not only on Earth, but in the heavens, and not only across space, but across time.

42:17This is powerful. It would be weird. If not weird, it would just be a different kind of science if all the laws of physics were just Earth-based. Yeah. Right? And they have some other laws, you know, Jupiter science. We have no idea what the rest of the galaxy's like. Well, we wouldn't if we didn't have the tools of telescopes to tell us. Right. I'm still hoping they discover a new color spectrum someday on another world. Really? Yeah, that's, I'm allowed to fantasize. No, no, we have that. You just need new eyes. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Then, then, I mean, we're almost at it. But you have no idea. I could talk to you about this book for two days. I have so many questions about this specific, so I'm going to make you come back. But because we're in New York, I'd just love to ask you. Yeah. What have we lost because of light pollution? I mean, like so many people only see a fraction of what they could show us. So when I grew up, when I grew up, we're same age-ish. So when we grew up, there was also air pollution. Yeah. Okay. This chimney is belching out, you know, industrial smoke. Let it go. Yes. So there I am in New York City. I didn't have a relationship with the night sky because you look up.

43:19There's a tall building. There's a smog. There's light pollution. And so I didn't discover the universe until I visited my local planetarium, the Hayden planetarium, where I now serve as directors. Where I take my son to hear things narrated by. Yeah. And now. So, so, um, we've mostly cleaned the air of this, of the smokestack. The smokestack kind of pollution, which is amazing. It is. It's an achievement. Don't ever get me with this other things going in the air that we don't want to hear like carbon dioxide. Yeah. But, um, so anyhow. So, yes, light pollution was gone to the city's decades ago. What's starting to happen now, we have satellite pollution. If you go up and look up at the night sky, in twilight, you say, is that a plane? No, that's a satellite. Oh, that's another satellite. That's another satellite. And it's like, wait a minute. I mean, it's fun at first. It's novel. But then, dude, I want, I want to see real stars. Yeah. You want to see the real universe? I'm thinking about debris fields, not. Oh, that's another, oh, that's the debris field.

44:19You can't see the, because it's too small. But the fact that we haven't been visited by aliens, I think it's because they've seen how much garbage is orbiting the air around this planet. What the hell are you doing? All of wire in space. So, yeah, they, so let's find another planet that knows how to keep better care of its space environment. I'm so mad you're not here longer. The book is called Lost in Space, 5,000 Facts for Navigating the Universe, Co-written by our friend Neil deGrasse Tyson. I'm telling everyone to buy this book for their Christmas presents now. This is the gift you're going to get for the person who's in the past. Like I said, if you want to be the coolest person at the cocktail party, grab a handful of them and take it with you. It's so good to see you. All right, thank you for stopping by. Thank you. Thank you for having me back. Quick break, back in just a moment with your calls. This is Sirius XM. Here's what you've been missing on the Stephanie Miller Happy Hour podcast. Without November 3rd, we're going to go out and vote. And you know what? I don't want to waste the words of vote Republican. Just go out if you're voting Republican.

45:19Okay, so help me God. Yeah, okay. You know what happens if you don't vote? You got to hell. You know that. You got to hell. I just, I, I was watching. I had, I can't help myself. Chris, I had to watch a couple of clips of it. And I just, can you imagine what the documentary is going to look of this time? He is an absolutely certifiable crazy person that I don't. Okay. I just, oh, here's another, yes, and this is another part of the cult. Trump received another question to award. Well, because they just have to give him. Yeah. He went to the, he visited the National Medal of Honor Museum in Arlington. Uh-huh. He was presented a champion of honor award. I stopped. They invent awards for him. Been vending awards. We're not liberals supposed to be the ones we all need to T-Ball, Profi, we all need a participation drill. Dear God, I just, okay.

46:21Just trying to, I'm trying to just, I can't even imagine what the history of this time is going to look like because it's okay. I'm like we lost our damn mind. Okay. Who said, it should be last night. The Trump straight, I call it. I control the Trump straight. The CEO of Grindr. That's a good guess. Now that's Trump. He controls the, he told the cult that he controls the straight of Trump. Yeah. Subscribe to the Stephanie Miller happy hour podcast on Apple podcasts, Stephanie Miller dot com, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

47:24We have a great, well known, Cory Booker, pretty much physically stuffing the four foot nine FBI director into a locker. A three. We don't have an FBI director. We have a lackey here. Okay. Who is using government, and frankly, he's not even a good lackey. He's an incompetent lackey. Okay. He's like an 18 year old kid who wants to join a fraternity that he could never be a member of, doing keg stands and chugging with friends. He's an embarrassment to the agency and wouldn't qualify even to be an FBI agent, sir. He won't answer questions for a committee. He insults Democrats here and you don't step in. He has a little book by his side that he literally is using to try to intimidate people in the same way he intimidates reporters. He is a disgrace, sir. Can I, can I just tell you it gets a little bit better? Mr. Corn, I think you'll want to hear this. Chuck Grassley. He decided to be the alpha nip things in the bud, but it didn't really work and Booker and Mr. Patel traded insults anyway. A4. Yeah, brother, I will repeat what you said. You're getting thrown out, but they can't throw me out.

48:25I'm going to hold this man accountable for as long as his and his job until he gets fired, which he probably will, because he's incompetent at his job and continues to do things that merit his removal. Yes, shame on you, sir. Rick, you're a Patel. Were you done? By the way, violent crime arrests by the FBI New Jersey are up 75% on top of the historic results. We've already delivered for the American people. Yeah, thanks to the state police. The most effective of the lives that he continues to tell. There's nothing I said here is a lie. You said your time's up, are you done or not? No, you don't. You want to go right out? You want to answer my question? If you want to my questions, go to the next person. This is ridiculous. What a mockery you are. You are the biggest mockery in the United States Senate and you're sitting next to shit. Yeah, well, eight million people in New Jersey don't think so. At least I didn't get my job the way you got your job. Are you willing to compare with Senator Graham? Oh, her question. I saw. It goes on like this for about 40 minutes. Are you ready to shut up? I am done, sir. For more, we're at 866-997-4748-866-997, grid.

49:27I found that fascinating. I am so pleased to welcome our next guest back to the show. In our studio, for the first time in a couple of years, David Corns of veteran Washington DC journalist, you know him. He's written five New York Times bestsellers most recently, the essential book, American Psychosis, a historical investigation of how the Republican Party went crazy. David is the Washington DC Bureau Chief of Mother Jones. He's an MSNB, MSNow analyst. He's won the George Polk Award, National Magazine Award. The new book. We've been talking about it. I'm so excited to interview you about this. How Russia won? Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, and the fight for America tells the very crucial story about how Vlad has waited his secret campaign to continually subvert in the U.S. and how MAGA and the GOP and the media have served as useful idiots in Putin's assault on the West. Mr. Corn, welcome back. Great to be with you, John. And great to be in the studio. It's great to have you back. It's so much fun. Thank you. I mean, I enjoy seeing you on Zoom, but this is much better. Thank you for writing this. Thank you for not dropping the ball on this. I'm still mad that they had 10 counts of obstruction of justice

50:31in the Mueller report decided to do nothing about it. You've been covering this for a decade. You've already written Russian Roulette, which is terrific. How did you know, Mr. Corn, that there was still another book to write and the story was so much bigger than anything we understood in the first term? You know, we've been bogged down for the last decades since 2016, arguing about what happened in 2016. Collusion, no collusion, whatever, and Trump has just been promoting this Russia, Russia, Russia, hoax, which hunt disinformation campaign all through that time. But while that was going on, while we were arguing about 2016, Vladimir Putin continued to assault American democracy with disinformation, influence, and intelligence operations aimed at the 2018 election, 2020 election, and the 2024 election, and there are signs now he's doing it again in the midterms. So what happened in 2016 was not a one-off. It was part of this long, ten-year, long campaign of information warfare,

51:31it's basically subterranean warfare against the United States. And so I tell that story in the book of all the things that have happened since then, but the other flip side of this is Trump's complicity in that assault. Going back to 2016, but continuing ever since, he says that all of this is a hoax, it's a witch on, it's a deep state conspiracy aimed to subvert him, it's Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia, that's his mantra. So he's been complicit. You know, we are... It's like open Biden's open borders, you just keep saying this thing, and your minions believe it's a thing. Yeah, and in fact, it's not just your minions. What I came to realize was that much of the media, I'm not a media basher per se, but much of the media, and even many within the Democratic Party, many of the Trump's critics, gave up on the Russia front. They basically Trump won the Messaging War on the Trump-Russia scandal, and they never came back to it, even though the attacks continued,

52:33and there was evidence put out by Trump's own first administration, and then by the Biden administration, showing that Russia was still trying to intervene and subvert our elections to cause chaos, so discord, and help Trump. Yes. So I just thought, you know, like you, I get aggravated by watching people get away with stuff like this, but that the full landscape had not really been laid out. And that we live, you live in this world, I live in this world, where our listeners live in a world where we're bombarded every day by multiple outrageous scandals and pieces of information about this news story, and that news story, and this news story, and it's a fire hose. And sometimes it's hard to come up for air and see the long narrative that has been underway here. So I think, you know, Putin has had this large ambitious strategic plan to weaken the West,

53:33to weaken the United States, to weaken the United States, to make sure that NATO and the US and Western Europe cannot thwart his imperial ambitions. And one way of doing that is by exacerbating the conflict in the United States through these disinformation influence operations, and also to help Donald Trump land in the White House, which he has done. So we talk about all the things that Trump has done in the way he's weakened America and lessened our standing in the world and has acceded to, you know, Putin's war in Ukraine in many ways. And that means that this war, this twilight war, people, national security experts call it a great, gray zone warfare against the United States, has really become a central element of the story of the Trump era. And up to now, I don't think anyone fully told that tale. Since we booked you to come and talk about this, let's just talk just the last 36 hours.

54:35We found out that Vladimir Putin was feeding information to Iran to attack US bases and interests in the Middle East. We found out the president's oldest son had a Russian oligarch spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to rent a private island and give him a vast wedding after party. So yeah, the Russia complicity, the Russia question marks. I mean, right now, it's still turned up to us. Two weeks, it's even been more than that. You had the president of Iran going to Russia and getting support from Vladimir Putin. The financial times broke the story that Russia was sharing technology for supersonic missiles with Iran. Now, who are they going to target their missiles at, right? We know when doing that. We saw that when we had the G20 meeting in Asheville, North Carolina, Trump without telling any of his allies invited the Russian finance minister to this meeting when Russia had been ostracized and basically kicked out of the G20 because of its war against Ukraine.

55:39And MSNOW reported just a few days ago that, well, yet again, Russian disinformation operatives, the very ones that I write about in my book, How Russia One, are back at it trying to put deep fakes and disinformation into social media platforms here to disparage Democrats and obviously help Republicans win the mint term. So this stuff is going on every single day. And we talk about a Russian oligarch being at and paying for Donald Trump Jr.'s wedding celebration. He's not an oligarch in the usual fashion. He's not one of these guys who made a crap load of money. And then, you know, has to be kind to Putin in order to keep it. This guy was years ago convicted of extortion and assault. He led a biker gang called the Night Wolves. It were not just like your weekend motorcycle hobbyists. They were working with Russian militias in Ukraine and doing intelligence and security work

56:43which put this fellow Irma Kremelov in touch with the head of security for Putin's own office. It's almost like you're not happy for Don Jr.'s day. I mean, almost like you're not. Well, I mean, I hope the second one works better than the first. I think we thought about his wedding more than his dad has, but go on. Yeah. And so he's not just a Russian rich guy. He's part of Putin's inner circle and security operatives. And you look at the pictures of the weddings. It's like, what does not belong here? It's like 50 of his intimate friends and family. And then this group of Russians who he said, you know, he got to know a couple of years ago. Is it true they were trying to keep the Russians out of the photos? Because I heard all these reports that they were actually asking the photographers not to include so many Russians. I mean, we don't, we know that most of the photos don't have the Russians. And there's one photo where you can see the top of the head of this one Russian that we're talking about. But, you know, I have friends, you know, who I've met in the last couple of years.

57:43I'm not sure anyone would give me $100,000 for my wedding. It doesn't pass the smell test. So what we see happening in the last week, which is a direct continuation of the story in my book, is that Russian operatives are starting to whip up again disinformation initiatives and clandestine programs to affect the election. Wow, this Putin crony from his inner circle is further injecting Russia into the Trump clan. I mean, it doesn't pass the smell test. So it's good for me. The book came out yesterday and I've been doing lots of shows. It promoted and hopefully people will buy it and read it. But this really just encapsulates what I'm talking about. And let me, let me, you know, pray on a little bit longer. Please, because I have many questions about this book, Dave. Because you just, you know, sometimes, you know, stories come out there outrageous on the face and we focus on that.

58:45But if you ponder it for even another second or two, it's even worse. I mean, okay, so this guy who's at the wedding, his sister-in-law is in charge of the program that's kidnapping thousands of Ukrainian children's. Okay, and he's working with Vladimir Putin, who is a war criminal, who is targeting while the wedding's going on and to this day, civilian targets in Kiev and other cities and other sites across the country. There has been a tool of this war. This rape has been, you know, as I mentioned, war crime and torture. So, Donald Trump, Jr., sees nothing wrong with hub, not just hobb-napping, not just going out for a beer with, but to this intimate event, bringing in someone who is supporting all this. He's not acting Ukraine the same way. He's not just, he's not, this guy, you're more criminal of, is not just a Russian rich guy. He's part of the Putin apparatus that is committing these atrocious crimes in Ukraine.

59:52And you say, oh, you know, we like to talk about boxing and hunting. And we both like the outdoors, Trump Jr., said. I mean, we can play this game all the time, but imagine if Hunter Biden had done anything like this. Fox News, I mean, I think all the circuits would have been blown. You wouldn't be able to walk on the street because of all the orgasms across the block at Fox News. It would be a biohazard zone. If Hunter Biden was involved with foreign scumbags with money to a centilla of this percentage, but this is why I'm so glad that this book doesn't begin in 2016. You begin this with Trump's meeting with Putin in Alaska, which I think is exactly the most powerful place to begin it. What did you want readers to understand from that scene that our media just didn't cover? A lot of people only saw the images in the headlines and then walking to a car together on a red carpet. What that, I mean, it's too bad we're radio not video because the video of this meeting is just incredible.

1:00:56You have Donald Trump claiming that this is the way to end the war in Ukraine. Invites Vladimir Putin, who at this point, this is a year ago, who by then is ostracized around the world. Around the world for what he's done in Ukraine. He just murdered Purgosia? Yeah, and so, you know, he's murdered Alexei Alexei, and other. So he invites Putin not just to a meeting in a neutral territory. No, Americans. But to come to American soil. And he, you know, the plane lands, American soldiers get on their knees to lay out a red carpet, a fact that was highlighted throughout Russian media. Yeah. And so Trump gets out first of Air Force One, the non-Cutari Air Force One, and standing at the end of the red carpet. And Putin comes down, descends down the stairs from this presidential plane, and walks towards Trump.

1:01:57And Trump starts to clap all of his hands. He's clapping and he's smiling with glee. Putin comes up to him, he takes his hand and gives him sort of a grasp on the shoulder, you know, kind of a little mini hug, and is smiling. And they're laughing together. They walk to a podium that says, you know, making peace. They stand murdering our allies. They're taking photos and report a shout questions that Putin can be trusted. What about what you're doing in Ukraine? He doesn't answer them. Trump doesn't respond to them. Then they get, they walk to the beast. This is the reinforced Cadillac that, you know, transports the president. This is the creepiest part of all of this. And Trump invites him to get in together, to join him, without anybody else, no translators, and nothing else. They get in the car, and as they drive away, you can see through the window, Putin with this, it's going to sound pejorative, diabolical grin.

1:02:57Like, look what he wants. And like, all these images are flashed around the world. So now he's sharing the stage with Trump. He's being legitimized while he's been delegitimized and discredited around the world. And Trump is saying again and again through this day, Putin wants to end the war, which was always a lie. And then so they have this meeting for three, four hours. And at the end of the day, what does Trump get out of it? I think the diplomatic term is bupcus. But this is Kim Jong Un. I mean, this was just, this was Putin all about the visuals using Trump as a prop to return to the center of the international stage for sheer propaganda. Right. It did nothing. And you know, there are times, I mean Joe Biden met with Putin. There are times when American presidents have met with Rogish. Next time I'm with Putin. And to try to sort out, you know, end of war, sort out diplomacy, a nuclear arms trade, a nuclear arms deal. So I mean, there's reasons to do that.

1:03:58But here he was not just meeting. He was embracing and worst of all, honoring Putin. And that's why Putin came. And that's why Putin came. And come from meeting. Oh, Putin has no interest. I mean, my book includes the fact that our intelligence experts, our intelligence analyst at the CIA and the State Department, told Trump again and again, Putin has no interest in negotiating and to this world. And neither does Trump and fairness David. And Trump does either. And so that he believes it's a war of attrition. He can keep fighting. And eventually Ukraine will run out of resources, soldiers, and will yield. And some- They'll come up and they'll want to welcome the occupied. In some form or another, they will yield. And so, and Trump is publicly saying, oh, we can get a deal. Putin wants to end the war. And that is just, you know, it is. It's giving Putin this tremendous propaganda win. So that's a week with these real estate assholes with Whitcoff and Jared Kushner meeting with Putin.

1:04:59Well, it's just Putin just running out the clock. They don't put. And then Jared Kushner comes out and says the way to end this war is for Zelensky to make concession. That's right. Which is what Putin wants to get big parts of Ukraine, you know, to steal it away from Ukraine. Thank the man murdering your people. And here is Kushner's, Kushner's saying, well, that's the only way to end the war. So it's taking Putin's side. So to me, this is really, in some ways, the culmination of the, you know, 10 years or so that I've described in the book of Russia attacking not just the United States, but the West, you know, other Western European countries and Trump being complicit by denying it's happening and even encouraging the guy and putting him on a pedestal. It's, it's totally outrageous. And, um, but yet one of the 27,000 or whatever, outrages that we deal with out of the Trump administration on a daily basis, although this does combine, grift and graft war.

1:06:03And basically the, hollowing out of American democracy. That's it. We have to take a quick break. I have many questions. This is one of the most important books of the year. Our guest is Mr. David Gore in the book is how Russia won. If you have any questions or comments about Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump, their creepy relationship, the Ukraine war, what has been going on for the past couple of decades? We are at 866, 997, 47, 48. Back in just a moment. This is progress. I don't think people understand what's going on right now. This thing is going to be renegotiated. Renegotiated. Urban View Mornings of the podcast. With Sean Aranay, Dr. Gregg Khar, the Munking, and you. Welcome. Urban View Mornings, the podcast deep dives into news, politics, social justice and culture. Issues often overlooked by mainstream media. No spin, no lies, just facts. Urban View Mornings. The podcast starts your day with knowledge, wisdom, history, truth and a dash of fun.

1:07:06Am I perfect? Join the conversation. Informing the culture, honoring the legacy and shaping what comes next. Across this country. Urban View Mornings, the podcast. On the serious XM app. And wherever you get your podcast. What I tell you is the truth is the truth. Urban View Mornings, the podcast. With Sean Aranay, Dr. Gregg Khar, the Munking, and you. Stay engaged. Urban View Mornings, the podcast. Empowering America. Urban View. With Talk Empowers, it becomes action. We are joined by one of the best investigative journalists in our country, David Korn, who I love to read, but it's even better having him in studio. His essential new book will infuriate you and inspire you. But I really recommend it. Now Russia won Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, and the fight for America. Now that's a very consequential title, sir. When you say one, what exactly do we mean?

1:08:06What were Putin's objectives and what do we believe Putin actually accomplish? Yes. Now Putin obviously has not won the war in Ukraine yet. But Putin did have these strategic ambitions. Always. And the biggest counterforce to that has been the West, the Western Alliance, NATO led by the United States. The Budapest Memorandum Treaty we signed. And he just has been adamant about trying to find ways to create dissension and fractures within that alliance. And he's also wanted to discredit Western democracy. He is a authoritarian leader. He's trying to convince the Russian people that the best form of government is an autocrat who can make decisions and protect the state and deliver to the people. And that democracy is not just messy, it's corrupt, it's rigged.

1:09:07And if he can show that to his public, he believes it preserves and protects his own standing as a tyrannical dictator. And so those are his geo-strategic aims. And he isn't trying to do that with military force because he doesn't have military superiority over the West. And that could lead to a nuclear conflict, which I assume that he doesn't want either. But he has been using what they call hybrid warfare, national security experts, called it grey zone warfare, to attack and weaken his Western rivals and opponents. And that's just the United States. It's happening throughout Europe, in France, in England, in Hungary, in Poland, in Modova, Estonia. And he's basically trained intelligence operations, disinformation operations, influence operations on all these countries, certainly focusing a lot on the United States to subvert American

1:10:09democracy, to exacerbate the discord that already exists here. We have plenty of it on our front. That's the brilliance of it. And that's throwing oil on that. And also through these operations, which have included Russian intelligence operations to smear Joe Biden in 2020, and massive disinformation campaign in 2024, targeting Kamala Harris and the Democrats, he's helped place into the White House, Donald Trump, who does everything Putin wants, almost all the things that Putin wants. If he wasn't a Russian asset, what would be different? Yeah, in terms of undermining and weakening our alliances, he's a close buddy of authoritarians around the world. He loves Kim Jong-Un and Erdogan and Turkey. And we have our Western allies say, well, we're not sure NATO is going to hold, or if we can count on the U.S. to support us. And this all is Putin's playbook. And you've been talking about this for years, Donald Trump is also weakened the U.S. in

1:11:12terms of our financial standing around the world. We are more at odds with each other now than we've ever been. He's taken apart our public health system. He's weakened our scientific research system. He's prevented some of the best minds in the world from coming to schools here in the United States. Measles are fun. Nice to have those of you. Measles are fun. And he himself is the number one trash talker of American elections. And allies. Because American elections don't, they're rigged. They're always rigged. They don't work. So, well, Putin is saying you can't trust democracy. That's exactly what Trump is saying. And he's causing chaos in our elections by trying to stop mail and balloting and all that. So, Putin has won up to now in terms of achieving a whole set of his strategic aims. Now politics goes back and forth. The pendulum swings both domestically and geopolitically. Something that's been done, a lot that's been done, can still be undone.

1:12:17And there may become an opposition at some point in time to Putin, a new American president could reinforce the alliance and the opposition to Putin in Ukraine. So, it's not undoable a lot of this stuff. But up to now Putin, I think in some ways, I think you can call this perhaps the most successful COVID operation in modern history. Yeah, it's astonishing. I mean, and what I wrestle with is, first off, I don't know how we describe Russia's economy now. It's not capitalism. I always say it's like Star Wars. It's Tatooine is ruled by the Huts. It's just, it's crony capitalism gangsterism. But you look at the bloodbath Ukraine has been. They're now taking convicts from North Korean jails and sending them to the front lines. And the latest that I heard is the average life expectancy for a soldier on the front lines in Ukraine, as I believe, 25 minutes. But I take it back to Chechnya. I look back, David, at how 50,000 Russian troops were killed.

1:13:20And I always wonder, at what point will Putin have thrown one to many guys out of a high window? At what point will the people of Russia, who I understand historically have a thing for revolutions? How has he managed to insulate himself from the eye of his people? Is it just that the oil revenue alone is keeping him afloat? Well, that is the core of his economy. We see leaders do this around the world. He tells a narrative to the Russian public that Russia has been put into the corner by the West. Russia deserves greatness. Russia won World War II as much as the American state. They are arguments. And they actually lost far more people in that. And yet they were kind of kicked to the side as the Soviet Union. And so he's promising to make Russia great again. Sounds familiar. And he is talking about how they are surrounded by the West. And he's also, using his KGB background, has been very ruthless in building a security

1:14:23apparatus that makes dissidents opposition, even criticism impossible. He is a czar. He is an emperor, a czar dictator. And we see systems like that in North Korea. We see it in China. There are places where authoritarianism takes hold. And it is really tough to undo. In Hungary a couple months ago, they voted out a fellow who was an article out. Now it is a tutorial as Putin has been a fan of Viktor Orbán. But it took 16 years for them to do that. He was elected 16 years earlier. And the economy was not doing well. And there was just so much rampant corruption with his son driving a million dollar in massacred or whatever it was. And it drove a conservative anti-corruption backlash. He wasn't replaced by a liberal reformer. No, no. And so in a smaller country, people see this stuff more clearly.

1:15:24It's actually in their faces. But it took 16 years to do that. So I don't really know what's going to happen in Russia and how long Putin looks healthy. I mean, can sustain this. We saw Fidel Castro maintain his government for years. And now it's still in place. It's teetering, but it's still there. And with Trump in office, there is a lot less pressure on Putin. Right? Of course. There's a lot more that America and the West could be doing jointly to push back on Putin in the war in Ukraine. I mean, we have given Ukraine assistance. But recently, Trump said you could have some patriot missiles. And that doesn't seem to be happening right now because we are using all our patriot missiles up in Iran. Thank you, Secretary of whatever. I can't believe they're still officially supporting Ukraine.

1:16:25Like, I can't believe they're still pretending to. Well, well, well, pretending is a good word here. And other Western countries, Western repunations have moved in in Germany big time. But we see recent elections in Germany for the right wing AFD party, which says they want to end all support of Ukraine. So we do know that Putin has been supporting these right wing populist anti-interventionist JD Vance too. Parties throughout Europe, like JD Vance. But also Le Pen in France, her party got money from Russia. So he's been waiting. It's all part of this campaign against the West. Fundal financing, the far right, disinformation campaigns to discredit the Democrats, small D Democrats and liberals running for office. And it's not stopping anytime soon. People talked a lot about Trump and collusion in 2016, but the word I keep coming back to

1:17:29is complicity. Thank you. I don't say collusion because that was Trump's dummy word he used to get us all talking about something that wasn't even illegal. But consistently through your work, you've just said it. The Kremlin doesn't have to create divisions in this country. They can just exploit the ones that are already there. David, what are some of the specific vulnerabilities that Putin has been exploiting? Let's talk about that point you just raised about exploiting vulnerabilities here. I mean, I've been talking in general terms. Let's do a specific. In 2024, Russia had set up multiple disinformation networks. They had the name Matrioshka, which is those Russian nesting dolls, Storm 1516, Storm 1679. All sorts of different names. They were very shadowy. We don't know necessarily who was in what group. And they had different tactics for how they presented disinformation across US American social media platforms, with tweets and posts and videos.

1:18:32They were always, you know, denigrating or presenting false stories about Kamala Harris and Joe Biden before he got out of the race. Well, there's a cop. This is a wild story, which I tell fully in the book named John Mark Dugan. He was a cop in Florida. He ended up having sort of falling out of favor with his local Palm Beach police force and started attacking them on websites with various aliases and was eventually indicted for wiretapping and extortion. Before the FBI could round him up, he fled to Russia. And he joined and became the face of this gigantic disinformation campaign. He set up scores, maybe even hundreds of phony websites with a name like the DC Weekly, the New York News Daily, not the New York Daily News and New York News Daily, the Miami

1:19:33Chronicle. It's a boss. Very credible. The boss in times. These websites put up, you know, wire copy real stories, but then also disinformation. Zelensky was buying Stings Vineyard with all the money he was getting from America or the Washington Chronicle reports it. Yes. Stories about that. And you know, a lot of it was focused initially on Ukraine and Zelensky because the world was going on. It says it still is. Eventually, they pivoted to the 2024 election and put out stories that Kamala Harris had killed a kid with a hit and run accident that she had early Alzheimer's that she had gotten an abortion a self that she was tied to the small package of cocaine that was found in the White House. And they put on these people who were purported to be witnesses or journalists who had discovered this information.

1:20:33They made it look pretty professional like this is a real news report like Kennedy with his birth or is him experts exactly. And so they made these videos and they would put them up on telegram and then eventually X and they would spin across the US social media platforms amplified by right wingers. One that probably had the most impact and they'd be seen by millions was that this guy John Mark Dugan introduced on a QAnon show on rumble which is a right wing YouTube like a platform. A guy who claimed to be from Kazakhstan who had been who said he had been an exchange student at a Minnesota high school when Tim Walls was a was a teacher and a football coach there. And this guy had a story to tell it was that Tim Walls had touched him. Of course. And appropriately. Yeah. And this guy paid by Russia. So this guy John Mark Dugan who's living in Russia and it set up all these fake sites

1:21:36as part of a Russian information network put some on rumble on a QAnon show. All of some of their video clips on the phony websites and they jump into the American bloodstream across Twitter, across telegram, you know, all the, all, you know, I don't think that truth social was up and running them. But in any event, all these, you know, Americans now are believing this and some very prominent right wing social media posters are pushing this on. And eventually a guy named Jack Pisobe Act who gave us pizza gate in 2016, a mega activist who's now working for the Trump campaign. And a guy named Candace Owens. God bless her. The biggest right wing influencers, they amplify this story. So Russian disinformation attacking bogus information, attacking Tim Walls in the worst way possible, accusing him of pedophilia, then being amplified by some of the biggest

1:22:43names on the right, including someone working for Donald Trump. So that's how this works. Does it need to be true? Just people need to hear it. And it goes back to your point that the Russians just needed to seed this. Oh, yeah. You know, once they seeded it, Americans made it go big time. But how much of this also though, and you kind of have answered this, but about people around Trump in his orbit, because the book goes so beyond Trump himself and it looks really closely at his various human satellites. I mean, what did you learn about the networks connecting this political operation to the Russian officials and intermediaries? Well, I mean, Giuliani, you discussed like Giuliani and that's exactly what I wanted to take it. This to me is one of the biggest scandals of the last 10 years. And I go into such detail because of that in the book. In 2019, Rudy Giuliani acting as the president, as Trump's personal attorney, not on his own, starts to try to round up dirt on Joe Biden in Ukraine.

1:23:50And he's basically puts together a smear campaign that uses right wing journalists, a guy named Joe DeGeneva, former federal prosecutor who's a Trump-Russia denialist, his wife Victoria Tonseng, who's also a Fox News regular. And he just quit this week. And he just quit the, DeGeneva just quit this week from a prosecution down in Florida, which is a very mysterious story to talk about another time. But so Giuliani puts together this band of folks to dig up dirt on Joe Biden. And what they're trying to prove is that Joe Biden intervened to stop an investigation in Ukraine of a company called Berezma, an energy company that had on its board Hunter Biden. Now, Hunter Biden being on the board was always pretty dicey and shouldn't have happened. It was just another example of someone using their name to score big. It's happened on the Democratic administrations. It's happened in Republican administrations. But they went beyond that and said that Joe Biden used his influence as vice president

1:24:50to question investigation. That story was immediately debunked by Bloomberg News, LA Times, and others. It wasn't true. And they kept pushing it on Fox, O.A.N., whatever. So while they're continuing to bang that drum, Rudy Giuliani hooks up with a guy in Ukraine named Andre Dirkosh. Dirkosh was in Ukrainian parliamentarian who had said for years Russia didn't ever attack to America. It was Ukraine that did it. A theory that doesn't make any sense. But he came out of a party in Ukraine that was very pro-Russian, pro-Putin. And a little side note, his father worked for the KGB and he himself went to the KGB academy. Anyway, so Giuliani hooks up with this guy who claims to have documents showing that Joe Biden took a $900,000 bribe from Ukraine and that he's been up to his neck in various different episodes of corruption.

1:25:51And yes, he did have this prosecution killed to help his son. So Giuliani has a meeting with Dirkosh. It's all filmed for O.A.N. the right wing network. They put out hours of programming, hailing Andre Dirkosh and Giuliani. And then Giuliani says, you know, we really could use some of these transcripts of conversations that Joe Biden had when he was coming over to Ukraine. And you know what? Five months later, Andre Dirkosh says, look what I have. I have tapes of Joe Biden's conversations with a previous president of Ukraine. I wonder where from the KGB or now he got these from. He got these some Russian intelligence and he holds a press conference. He puts out these tapes. They say nothing. Of course. If their conversations were to Biden and past president when they were trying to figure out how to make Ukraine less corrupt, so we could get loans from the West.

1:26:53So there's nothing. Nothing. That's why the prosecutor was fired. Nothing incriminating in these tapes. He puts that out. The right wing goes nuts over this. More evidence of Biden corruption. It doesn't matter what they actually say. Fox News O.A.N. and Rudy Giuliani is saying, look what we got. Look at these tapes. So he is hailing this disinformation being put forward by Andre Dirkosh, who's not just a Ukrainian legislator. It turns out. He is a Russian agent working with Russian intelligence to smear Joe Biden. Now you ask John, you ask, how do we know that? How could we possibly know that he was a Russian agent and be sure that's true? Well, we learned that because the Treasury Department, under Steve Mnuchin, this is when Trump is president. Trump's own Treasury Department sanctioned Andre Dirkosh because he was a Russian agent.

1:27:54They said so in the press release. And they said that he was involved in Russian intelligence operations to destabilize the American election by smearing, or tending, or tarnishing, or presidential candidate. What we know which presidential candidate it was, it was Joe Biden. And it gets even more absurd. So these tweets are coming out based on these transcripts that don't say anything that Dirkosh characterizes as the smoking gun of Biden corruption. And guess who retreats and amplifies one of these tweets? Guy named Donald Trump. So you have the president of the United States retweeting disinformation put out by a Russian agent who's working closely with his own personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani. Now, and the end of the Fox News viewer makes it all okay. I've been covering national security issues for, God, almost 40 years, not quite. And I've written books about the CIA.

1:28:55This is just a classic intelligence operation that they had to be popping the champagne. Oh, yeah. The president of the United States to retweet disinformation put out by Russian agent through his own personal attorney. And I, again, it's one of the many, many scandals in the firehose of information that comes at us every day in the Trump error that should have been front page news for weeks. And yet no one remembers this, which is why I wrote the book, How Russia Won. That's why the book is so important, but that's the gaslighting, right? I call it What the Fuck Fatigue. We're so overwhelmed by the onslaught, the firehose of what the fucks are outrage circuits are burned out. David Korn, I, the book is so important. I'm so grateful you came here and I want everyone to buy it. And I hope you'll come see us a lot in the daytime now. Before I let you go, I want to ask you about that career in journalism because you've been doing this a while. David, what responsibility does the news media have when foreign actors are deliberately

1:29:56trying to manipulate the press with our remaining two minutes? The ultimate responsibility the news media has is to tell the truth to the public and provide an accurate depiction of reality that doesn't necessarily mean you report what he said and she said if you can prove that what he said is true and what she said is false or vice versa. It's letting, you know, particularly in this age of a cluttered chaotic information ecosystem, the media has even a greater responsibility to cut through the crap and the bullshit and the disinformation, whether it's from foreign sources or from the president himself and say this is false, this is untrue, the president or the senator or the governor or the candidate is lying about this and not telling us what is really happening. That's what the public needs from the media, this idea of objectivity that prevents you from doing that. Oh, the public needs both sides. They need both sides. Well, you can when both sides have a bearing on what may or may not be true. Exactly.

1:30:57But not when one side is demonstrably false. You know, the sky is not purple. The sky is blue. If one side says the sky is purple and the other side says the sky is blue, you can't just say, well, no, let's go to an expert to find out what people say about this. So I think, you know, the media has fallen into a trap here, particularly in the Trump era of not being able to fully come to terms with massive disinformation campaigns, which is what Trump essentially is running. Let me up here, let alone those coming secretly into the country. And I'll say if people want more info, my book, go to howrussia1.com. I am so happy to have a substantive conversation with you about this. It's really hard taking place. It's hard to dig into things these days. Ataya, I grow up working in TV. I love working here because we get to go this deep. And this book really deserves it. The book again, friends, is called Howrussia1. Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin in the fight for America. Mr. David Korn, how do our listeners follow you and keep up with your brilliance on the regular? Everyone should subscribe to the Auralian newsletter. Yeah, they can go to DavidKorn.com. That's Korn with a seat.

1:31:58He sent up for my newsletter. I'm on Blue Sky, David Korn. I'm on X, if you still bother with X, a David Korn DC. And as I say, howrussia1, you can find out more about that at howrussia1.com. We are so, all everybody is plugged in these days. Yeah, but I mean, this book is really important. I want to thank you for doing it. Thank you for coming in person. Please come see us again now that we're back in daytime. Anytime. Good. We're right here. You know where the address is. You know those pieces in your closet, you always find yourself wearing like over and over the sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of trousers, that t-shirt, you somehow always reach for first.

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