Possible Clancy Retrial & Civil Rights Upheaval

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2:04one juror after another has come out to complain about the loan holdout juror who caused the mistrial. Juror Nick Dargy said the loan juror wouldn't explain his position or even lean on the evidence to inform his opinion. There was several times I would ask him to show us like evidence or you know, describe a witness testimony that helped to prove what he was saying and he couldn't. The defense attorney has filed papers asking the judge to find Clancy, not guilty by reason of insanity, despite the mistrial. Joining me to discuss this case and other legal issues is Dave Aaronberg, former Palm Beach County State Attorney. Dave, the criticism and the investigation into this one holdout juror from the defense attorney, from the other jurors, I mean, have you seen anything like this before where a holdout was so criticized?

3:05No, but that's the internet culture we're living in. Everyone is an internet sleuth or there's conspiracy theorists. There are a number of people who actually believe that Patrick Clancy is one who committed the murders even though Lindsey Clancy admitted it or lawyer admitted it. You have to be real ghoul to pile on a suffering father like this ridiculous, but when people are passionate, they've dug their heels in on a side, it reflects society. How we're at each other's throat all the time now. So I'm not surprised that you have these jurors ganging up on this one holdout juror. I'm just surprised that the juror was able to hold out because when everyone's against you, 11 to 1 and you only think stopping everyone from going home to see their families, it's hard to say no. What do you think about what the other jurors have said about the deliberations and that this juror wasn't open to discussion and that he had doubt? Well, there's a question whether his doubts were reasonable doubt. There was a note to the judge that says that he had doubts. That's okay. You can have doubts and still find someone guilty. Just can't have reasonable doubts.

4:06And then the judge did what the judge is supposed to do. He called everyone in. He questioned every juror. He reread them the instructions. He even gave them the Allen charge, which is to go back in and really work hard to get to a verdict, unanimous verdict. And in the end, the juror held out. That's the jury system. We give a lot of deference to people who service jurors and how they work behind the closed doors of the jury room. We let them battle it out. As long as it's not illegal, it's also no physical threats. And as long as he follows the instructions, but quite frankly, even if he didn't follow the instructions, if there was jury nullification, that too is not suggested. It's not advised, but it happens all the time. Her lawyer asked the president to pardon her. Now, he must know that the president can't pardon someone for a state crime. He did it on purpose. He knew what he was doing. He knows that Trump cannot pardon someone for a state crime. But he also knows that Tim Cruz, who is the district attorney, is the only Republican-elected

5:09district attorney in all of Massachusetts. He's one of 11, 10 Democrats, one Republican. And Tim is someone I know, by the way, when I was state attorney for 12 years, everyone knew Tim Cruz because he was a leader in the National District Attorney's Association, well respected, well liked. And the play here is for the defense lawyer, Reddington, to appeal to Trump, who then can tell his fellow Republican to lay off and not try it again. But I know Tim Cruz, and he doesn't care what politicians think. He is motivated by the evidence in the law. Clancy's attorney officially filed papers asking the judge to find her not guilty by reason of insanity. Quote, no rational jury could find beyond a reasonable doubt that she had no mental disease or defect when the Commonwealth's own proof established that she did. That seems like an odd argument to make to a judge. The discretion of whether she gets tried again is all in the hands of the district attorney. The judges are not going to take this out of the DA's hands.

6:12It was 11-1. He's trying to essentially get the judges to say, now go and override the jury decision here, which was a hung jury. It's not going to happen. But I think all this is to apply some political pressure on Tim Cruz, whether it's to ask Trump to get involved, whether it's to file appeals, whether it's to do press conferences, do interviews on major shows, is to try to make Tim Cruz feel that it's a lost cause. That 11-1 is a jury telling you not to do it again. And quite frankly, even though I'm normally on the side of prosecutors, and I really do like Tim Cruz, I think when a jury tells you 11-1 that they disagree with you, it's time to cut a deal. I mean, they could revamp the way they present the case. Yeah, put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. It's not going to be easy, no matter what kind of strad to the employee because there is real evidence that Lindsey Clancy was under the throes of serious mental illness. She had psychosis and she had all these doctors who seemed to over-medicate

7:12her medical professionals. I think the biggest evidence, at least some of the jurors, with the fact that she's not a bad mom, other than the horrific murders you commit at the end, like there's no evidence that she was trying to get out of being a mom and go on the dating scene, like others we've seen. We've seen others who have been tried, some convicted, some not-case Anthony, where they wanted to go party. And here you have a woman who by all accounts was was a good mom who was under the throes of psychosis, was listening to voices in her head. And as someone who's normally pro-prosicution, I just always thought it was going to be near impossible to get a unanimous jury to find her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder. Maybe manslaughter as just a middle ground so that everyone can compromise but not murder. So you have the jurors talking. You have the majority of public sentiments seems to be on her side. And then you have Patrick Clancy, the father, who had after the mistrial called the prospect of a second trial extraordinarily painful. And he's going to appear on 60 minutes on Sunday.

8:20Will this play into Cruz's decision about whether to retry her? I do think that public sentiment matters because when you're a district attorney, you're under an ethical responsibility only to pursue charges when you have a good faith belief, you can get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. And even if you think the evidence and the laws on your side, if you know that we're not going to commit a jury beyond a reasonable doubt and then you add to it that the main victim who's still alive now, which is the father of these poor three kids, doesn't want to go through this again. You take that into consideration. In fact, you have to take into consideration under Marcy's law. Victims' rights are there, even though the decision is ultimately up to the prosecutor, but the prosecutor listens to others. What do you think a reasonable plea deal would be? Well, that is the big question here, because you can't force someone to go into a mental facility for a certain number of years because the mental facility has not considered punishment. It's not a prison. You can do a plea deal saying prison for

9:23X years, but you can't do it for a mental facility. And what those of us who form prosecutors and current prosecutors are always worried about is that, well, yeah, you let her go to mental facility and then the doctor says, okay, she's good. Now six months later, and the judge lets her free, and then she has more kids. You don't want that to happen. So I would think perhaps they can cut a deal where she serves a little time in prison, then goes to a mental facility or maybe she agrees not to seek the termination of her treatment after a certain time, but I don't know how you can do the ladder. And I don't know when it comes to the former, if Reddington, the defense lawyer is going to agree to any incarceration. After all, he's playing with a stack deck. He knows he's got 11 to 1. Why would he give in now? Well, he came outside the court hasn't said we won. Well, that was a little bit of bluster. I mean, he did win in that. It's not a conviction, but I bet you right now, you wish, he didn't glow as much because now he's appealing to Tim Cruz and trying to be nice to him, because it is all in his discretion. He should not have gone out and chastised the lone juror,

10:29the holdout juror. That was a bad look, and also really is not what Laura is supposed to do. He did more than chastised. He accused him of committing felonies in the court of lying under oath, and said he robbed the jury of their verdict. And he said, come on. Also, he shouldn't have criticized Tim Cruz, who's just doing his job as a prosecutor. He condemned him by name, saying that he didn't really care about the victims. That's why they looked down on his papers to see the names of the children. Okay, well, if you're going to go down that road, don't expect Tim Cruz to offer his handout with a deal. So now you see him backtracking, but I think that he wishes he didn't say the things he did. We'll see how the judge treats those motions at the next hearing, which is on September 29th. Let's turn now to another tragic case involving the murders of family members. In Los Angeles, District Attorney Nathan Hockman has announced that he won't seek the death penalty against Nick Reiner, who's facing murder charges for the killing of his parents, Rob and Michelle Reiner.

11:32We have gone through a rigorous review where we look at the aggravating factors as well as the mitigating factories, where we have spoken to the victims family. We have spoken to prosecutors, law enforcement, even though there's a lying in weight charge. Was this a death penalty case? No, also the death penalty is not real in California. It was the last time someone was given a death penalty in California. I think the last death penalty case they had was like 2005 that the last time someone was executed there. And there's a moratorium, Governor Newsom has a moratorium. So it was never going to get the death penalty. So when people say, well, he gave up his leverage, meaning Hockman, the DA, who I have a lot of respect for, that he gave up his leverage in taking off the table. He gave up his leverage if it was a real thing, it's just an hour real thing. Yes, he did lie in weight. Yes, he did show that he tried to cover up his tracks, which shows that he's not insane legally because he knew the difference between right and wrong. Why did he hide? Why did he try to cover up what he did? Because he knew what he did was wrong. At the same time, he does have mental health issues. And at the same time, the surviving family members do not want

12:37him to get the death penalty. And at the same time, Michelle and Rob Reiner were vehemently opposed to the death penalty. So you know what they would have wanted here, life in prison, not death. So you can see why Nathan Hockman made the decision he did. What his defense might be? Oh, well, his defense is going to be insanity. They're going to say he did not know the difference between right and wrong. He has it does have an established medical condition. He has mental health issues throughout his whole history. And in fact, was displaying weirdness just before. He was at that party. I think Conan O'Brien's house and he was creeping out the guests. So they're going to say, this was a mental break from a insane individual. The problem is that there's evidence of premeditation. The problem also is that there is evidence of concealment of hiding. He ran away trying to hide in a hotel room. Why do you do that? Because you knew you committed a crime. So you can't really get the insanity of victory that others can get like Lindsey Clancy. This is Bloomberg.

13:39This is the first time of all the people we brought in, of all the powerful billionaires and political people we brought in for interviews and deposition. This is the first time anyone's filed lawsuit. That was House Oversight Committee Chair James Comer talking about private equity billionaire Leon Black filing a lawsuit against the House Oversight Committee rather than comply with two subpoenas issued in the committee's investigation into notorious sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. One calling for him to testify under oath in a deposition and another calling for him to turn over all non-disclosure agreements in his possession. And on Wednesday the committee voted unanimously to hold Black in contempt of Congress for defying those subpoenas. I've been talking to a former Palm Beach County State Attorney, Dave Aaron Berg. Dave, he defied two subpoenas. Why wouldn't he

14:39be held in contempt of Congress? He does have some defenses. First he has top-notch lawyers. Not only are they impressive lawyers, they were all connected and they're going to be working DOJ to say, hey, use your discretion. Their defense is that that Leon Black already voluntarily appeared. So it's not like a Steve Bannon and Peter Navarro situation. He appeared already voluntarily. And now under the subpoena, instead of just saying I'm not appearing, he went to court and saw the court order to stop it. Now that's pending. And so his argument is you guys jump the gun, at least wait to see what the court says. On the other hand, there is nothing that prevents Congress moving ahead with contempt, even while a court case is pending. Peter Navarro had a court case pending while he was not only referred, but also convicted of contempt. He had a court case pending. So DOJ pursued charges and then got a conviction against Peter Navarro. But on the other hand, here Navarro's lawsuit was garbage. It was like a scatter shot lawsuit, whereas the one filed by Leon Black raises issues of privacy. They're talking about NDAs involving people who have

15:44nothing to do with Epstein. And so he's trying to say that the subpoenas are overbroad, that he's already cooperated and that he is acting good faith trying to get a judicial decision. So why would he be prosecuted for that? So we'll see what happens. Black walked out of that deposition after refusing to answer questions about the nondisclosure agreements. He had a decades-long relationship with Epstein and acknowledged paying Epstein $158 million over the years, which he said was for a state and tax planning advice. And the committee considers him to be an important witness. Here's chair James Comer. There's a lot of concerning things in the documents. There are a lot of statements from the survivors that are very concerning as well with respect to Mr. Black. Would a judge really quash these subpoenas, President Clinton, and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton testified before the committee after being subpoenaed? But Leon Black, no. You make great

16:51points because there is a middle ground here. What he could do is to submit the information to the congressional committee and then seek redactions or at least be held in confidence for people who are not involved with Epstein at all. There are certain ways they could work that out with the committee. And it's like an encamer review inside the four walls where no one else can see at least not all of it. But he didn't do that. He went to the court. And you're right to bring up the Clint's because the presumption is that Congress has brought authority to subpoena people and he's saying, well, this is not a legislative purpose. You've got broad legislative purpose. You could say we're looking at this to reform the finance industry to make sure they don't protect sex traffickers in the future. So I think that Leon Black is going to lose in court, but his defenses until that happens, he shouldn't be prosecuted for trying. Yeah, I mean that $158 million that supposedly went for financial advice to Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah. That's the biggest question with Epstein that's

17:55still outstanding. How did he make his money? He made all this money and people are saying, it's blackmail. We still haven't seen that. There really hasn't been anyone I think except for Bill Gates, who has accused Jeffrey Epstein of blackmail. But there's more there. This is not the end. And I suspect after this administration is out, we'll see more. The Justice Department, a spokesperson said that prosecutors take the contempt vote seriously and that Janine Piro, the US Attorney for DC, will review the referral of Mr. Black carefully. What's your guess on whether or not they'll bring criminal charges? I think they probably do. I think that this administration wants to be seen as getting tough on Epstein when it comes to the low hanging fruit. Like, look at the vote in Congress, it was unanimous. In the committee, it was unanimous. When do you ever see that? You can have a vote on the skies blue. You wouldn't get unanimity, but here they did. So I do think that they're going to end up filing charges. But the one thing that could stop that is if a court acts and I don't think, because you said that the court is going to issue an injunction to stop Congress from moving

18:58forward with this. So he may want to take a lesson from Bill Clinton and say, okay, I may call up let's let's turn over the documents. I don't want to wear an orange jumpsuit. Speaking of wearing orange jumpsuits, the tape brothers prosecutors in the UK have lodged a formal request for the extradition of brothers Andrew and Tristan Tate to face a total of 59 charges in the UK, including rape and counts related to sex trafficking and indecent images of a child. The brothers lost a bid to be released from a Florida jail on bail last week. Any surprise there? No, none. I mean, it would have been a surprise if they got out. See, the presumption in international extradition cases is for pretrial detention. This is not a domestic criminal case where the presumption is to give you bail because in an international extradition case, why are you being extradited? Because you fled to another country. That's why the presumption is we're not going to let you out because you're a flight risk, especially we have Andrew and Tristan Tate who brag about how many

20:01passports they have. I'm going to have seven eight who brag about how much money they have and their followers will do anything for them. They're like the definition of a flight risk. So the defense attorney says they're going to be challenging the extradition requests, arguing they were not backed up by information needed under the extradition agreement. I mean, even if that's true, I assume they can get the information they need. Is there any reason to think that I mean, this has to go through the State Department too, right? So the processes you get put in jail pending extradition and then you fight your extradition if you want to. So they're kept in jail until they're they get their hearing and then they'll appeal it and the longer they fight it, the longer they'll be incarcerated. So it's up to them whether they want to speed this up or make this lingerie. It could take up to two years because they're planning on fighting it. And as far as their best chance of getting out, it's not in a court of law because there's really a low standard to keep someone and then extradite someone. When it comes to international extradition, is there a problem cause? Yes, they got plenty of evidence. Are these serious crimes that

21:06be punished seriously in the United States? Yes. Do they have the right guys? Yes. So these guys are going home and is there an extradition treaty? And there is clearly the only way they would not be extradited is if Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State puts the kabosh on it. He does have that power. But why would he do that? I know Marco Rubio. I served in the state legislature with him. He's a religious guy. I will bet you. He finds these people repulsive. He's not not only going to lay down the tracks for these guys. If he did so, it would be the end of his political career. I mean, because this is Epstein 2.0. Why would you want to lead with your chin? They'll either be in jail here or in jail in the UK. Yeah, exactly. That's why I think it should just stop fighting it. They were complaining about the conditions here. They were saying they're being treated like animals. They said they were treated like a hardened criminals like terrorists because they were put in solitary confinement. And then the judge out of them said you're actually not in solitary confinement. In reality, you guys are cellmates, which is funny because it's like,

22:11is there anything that these guys say that there's a truth? I mean, they're not in solitary confinement, but they're in the shoe, which is the special housing unit. And I guess they've watched too many episodes of Orange, the new black, which equates the shoe to solitary confinement. But in the real world, the shoe is not always solitary confinement. And they're not. In fact, they're working as Ortalese in the shoe. So they get out and about. They have more time with their lawyer than most other inmates do. We covered a lot of issues, Dave. Thanks so much. That's former Palm Beach County State Attorney, Dave Aaron Berg. Coming up next, change is to the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division. I'm June Grasso and you're listening to Bloomberg. This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by Chachi Pt. Now with Chachi Pt. Work. I'm Carol Masser. AI is creating a new path for musical stardom. As Bloomberg's Lucas Shaw and Ashley Carmen report, Soono and AI-generated music company, let's useers generate a song in any style based on a text prompt.

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25:22The Justice Department Civil Rights Division has revamped priorities, shifting from protecting historically marginalized communities to other conservative priorities, including protecting gun rights. Assistant Attorney General Harmeet Dillon is rebuilding the division with lawyers who have backgrounds in conservative advocacy and Republican politics. Joining me is Reagan Ross, who was a longtime career lawyer at the division. She now leads democracy forwards red line for civil rights. Reagan, tell us about the Civil Rights Division before the Trump administration, what it was known for. The Civil Rights Division was founded in 1957 and that two and four star nation civil rights laws as they were delegated by Congress to the Attorney General to enforce and it was really born out of the civil rights movement and the black struggle for civil rights. But over the years, as Congress has passed more more civil rights laws and it's dedicated to the division over the years, everything from the

26:25Americans with disabilities act, to the Fair Housing Act, to criminal hate crime acts. And so those have all been delegated and the size and the mission of the division has grown, but it is always the same foundational purpose of protecting marginalized communities and being really the federal backstop of where people can go when their civil rights are being violated sometimes at the hands of private individuals but sometimes at the hands of state and local government. So that's the mission that has been served for decades. And how has that mission changed under the Trump administration or specifically under Assistant AG Harmeet Dillon? Here at Democracy For His Red Line for Civil Rights, we track the changes in the civil rights division and they have been profound. The Trump administration has politicized the civil rights division's mission really towards pursuing the political and conservative ideological goals of this administration and so in many ways it has abandoned its mission. We're

27:31tracking over 200 instances of either walking away from cases and abandoning communities, marginalized communities, to repurposing and using the civil rights law sometimes to actually turn against and doze rights for the very people that they'll last more than to protect. So more than 300 of the civil rights divisions, 400 plus lawyers left in the past 19 months. Does that track with what's happened in the rest of the Justice Department? Well, the Justice Department overall has seen substantial attrition that is sure across the board but certainly the civil rights division has been one of the divisions that has been hit quite hard and early on and then the civil rights division really started hollowing out early last year and so that has continued and certainly it's a trend that we have seen across the department. She has had a recruitment campaign for quote civil rights warriors and there are more than

28:3580 new attorneys who have experienced in conservative legal groups and Republican party. Is she doing what democratic administrations have done but on the other side or is this something more? Just the recruitment of lawyers is not unusual. I think that what is unusual here is the just the wholesale rework of the division's mission and we are seeing the work that many of these people have done in the past have worked for organizations. You are committed to really rolling back civil rights in this country and so that is not something that we have seen to this degree. Certainly there is a documented history of politicized hiring during the Bush administration. There was an office of inspector general report on that and it was over and so following that the division made extensive efforts to put guardrails in place to ensure that people who were

29:35hired into the division had the skills and expertise needed and that was not ideological or politically based. It was based on hiring high quality lawyers who had demonstrated experience and relevant experience and forcing our nation civil rights laws and who had impeccable judgments and wrong academic credentials and I was involved in many of that hiring. We had top lawyers in these positions and that is who they had largely driven out of the division and now are replacing with people who in many instances are matching the mission of the division and that is to roll back civil rights. Do the new lawyers have the same credentials that you mentioned? Are the hiring standards the same? I am not privy to have the hiring has happened and how it has unrolled what I can see is the output and certainly instances that have reported where people

30:36have been hired who have had professional responsibility issues or crimes even these are not things that would have passed muster and past hiring that is for certain and so it is deeply concerning to see if it is not a surprise though given where the Trump administration has taken the division over the last year and people who are ideologically aligned in order to carry out political ideological enforcement of civil rights. There is now a second amendment section to protect gun rights. Was there anything resembling that before? No, no. The second amendment section is brand new, the division in its history has never enforced the Second Amendment Congress has never delegated to the division enforcement of the Second Amendment and it really is not consistent with the mission which is really to serve as a federal backstop where people can go when

31:38their rights aren't otherwise indicated. There is an incredibly powerful and robust Second Amendment community out there and so I really question the need for any federal civil rights enforcement in that area and why it is that the division that was founded to enforce rights on the half of marginalized communities is enforcing the Second Amendment on top of that the law that is being used in order to enforce the Second Amendment is the police pattern of practice in this conduct statute which was passed in the wake of the Rodney King beating and Congress's recognition that the federal government should have a role when there are systemic pattern or practice violations of constitutional and civil rights by state and local police and so to use that statute that has nothing to do with the Second Amendment while they are also shutting down and have shut down a police misconduct work

32:43across the division is pretty astounding. And in the voting rights section I mean you associated the civil rights division before with trying to expand the right to vote. Now it appears that they're doing just the opposite. They file lawsuits against 30 states and DC demanding access to voter data to identify alleged non-citizen voting and other potential voter fraud. That's right the division's founding in the 57 civil rights act included provisions about the right to vote and it has for all those years focused on ballot access you know protecting the right to vote and instead we have here the division really focused on trying to at least it says root out fraud and non-citizen voting those are things that really were the purview of the criminal division and the public integrity section not of the civil rights division because

33:45the civil rights division focuses on the laws that it enforces and so the unprecedented search across the country to try and obtain statewide voter lists from nearly every state so that the divisions can sort of loom over the shoulder of states and the words of one court that rejected the IJ's attempts is really unprecedented and it also is inconsistent with the country's division of who runs elections that is state and local governments that's enshrined in our constitution not the federal government and so it is a profound expansion of the federal government will here and something that has been wildly unsuccessful they have filed 31 cases to try and seek access to voter data enrolled and had so far lost 23 and not won any. And is there any other area of the civil rights division that sort of stands out to you for the changes made during the

34:46Trump administration? I think that another area that folks may not think of all. Panned is the area of disability rights and so the division enforces the Americans with Disabilities Act that were signed into law by President Bush and had bipartisan support throughout its history but this civil rights division and this administration has moved to actually try and unwind one of the most key tenets of the Americans with Disabilities Act and that's the right for people's disabilities to live in their own homes and communities and to make choices for themselves generally referred to as the integration mandates and just a couple of months ago, the IJ's Office of Legal Counsel and Response Request from the White House issued an opinion where it opined that the law is different than what courts and the Supreme Court has said for decades and it is now moving to dismiss many of those cases which is just a profound change in

35:46the area of disability rights enforcement and so there's really no area across the division that hasn't been affected by this administration's changing civil rights approach. Let's say the next administration is a democratic administration with goals similar to what was in place before the civil rights division. I mean how long does it take to transform a division back to what it was? That is very tough to answer. I think you know two factors one the institutional knowledge this administration has driven out the door is really irreplaceable and we're talking about centuries collectively of civil rights enforcement by the career attorneys that use to populate the division throughout administrations and so there are people left in the division from that who have that kind of institutional knowledge but that number continues to reduce and so that will be a paramount challenge and I think it also depends what the status of civil rights laws

36:51are in the courts and so DOJ is certainly working to put a thumb on the scale first much as possible to try and sort of solidify its views the narrowing views of civil rights laws in decisions across the country and so to the extent it is successful which we do not know at this stage many of these cases are continuing to play out that will make it harder for future civil rights enforcement to federal level and beyond and so there's are two of them many factors that will be involved in looking at what a bill back potentially of the civil rights division looks like and what role play and interim enforcement of this country civil rights. Thanks so much for joining me today. That's Reagan Rush, Director of Democracy Fowards, Red Line for Civil Rights and that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law Podcasts. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and at www.bloomberg.com

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