Ranking Rock Bands' Best and Worst Songs with Bill Wyman

0:00Hey Sound Opinions listeners, if you support us on Patreon, you get to listen to our podcast Ed Free on Patreon. One, two, three, four. You're listening to Sound Opinions and this week we catch up with our old colleague Bill Wyman. His new book ranks every song by some classic rock artists including the Beatles, Nirvana, Pink Floyd and the Eagles. It is an argument waiting to happen. I'm Jim D. Rigadas and I'm Greg Kahn. We'll revisit some old arguments, start a few new ones and hear the good and bad music behind Bill's rankings. Sound Opinions is supported by the Goose Island Beer company. For over 20 years Goose Island has been brewing their iconic 312 beer for the best

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2:07Rock and Roll lists which ranks every song by the Beatles Michael Jackson, Led Zeppelin, Nirvana, Pink Floyd, The Eagles and The Clash as well as every artist in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. All right Greg, we are going to welcome this guy. I don't know if either of us even remember him that well. Bill joined UNI covering Chicago music for many years during the alternative explosion of the 90s. He was the critic at the Chicago Reader when UNI were at the sometimes in the Chicago Tribune. He's written, well you name an alternative weekly in the US. He's written for it. He's done a bunch of these lists for New York Magazine and its Vulture website and now he's put together. But hello Bill Wyman, I think I remember you. I have vague memories of both of you and there's a little bit of trauma. No, there's seriously a little bit of trauma but boy honestly a lot of joy and a lot of fun and we were all very lucky. It was a great period to be in the trenches and you

3:13and I started sound opinions and hence the trauma. Exactly and it's Jim's idea and it's a brilliant idea and he really, he just had a great vision. You know, it was quite a fun time. It really honestly was and like I was thinking my wife there day like it's just the like Greg and I were at the opening of like the YouTube tour in Lakeland, Florida. What tour was that Greg? That was the octane baby tour. Amazing tour. It was. Yeah. Yeah. That was the first show and we didn't know what it was going to be and it was like we both walked out of there kind of like wow. Exactly and Jim and I saw so many fun shows together. Yeah. And I don't know if people knew but I think it maybe it started in Austin. We're in the back of a car and we were just arguing and arguing and arguing. Jim and I disagree on everything and that was the genesis of it just the fact that we just could not stop arguing together. Well, you know, I have been doing sound opinions for 26 years now

4:15bill with with Greg and I love Greg dearly obviously but you know, it is impossible to get a rise out of him as I was always able to get out of you. You know, nobody would get as upset with me as Bill Wyman when I would and I'd say you know, sometimes I'd say just purposely stupid things. Like Lucinda Williams is 55 year old white guy music and Bill would go apoplectic. I was always kind of worried he was going to have a stroke. It's really, really, really true and but I'll tell you something else. It was a really good radio just as you guys do really good radio and it was a different era back then and they would play it in record stores that were open late. Yeah. Particularly I remember Joe Cavitra telling us that he'd stick it on in tower on Clark Street. All of all of this ancient history is on the web. I've written about it. Bill's written about it. But we're always interested most Bill in what's happening today and what's happening today is you are insane. When you say in the title of this book every song by the Beatles ranked every

5:17song by the Eagles ranked. You know, you literally listened to every song and weighed in with your thoughts often wrong but always witty and always exquisitely well written as is your style. About these songs. You know, what a crazy OCD pursuit Bill Wyman. It is but I'll tell you, Greg, one of the most famous things Jim's ever said about me, which was very funny is that we are already about all these weird things and one thing he finally said to me is that the trouble with you Bill is you care more about rock criticism than you do about rock music. I stand by that. Yeah. Well, there's some merit to that and after reading this book, and I read some of these as I mentioned to you in their original incarnation when they came up, but then you've got two new entries, which we'll get to in a minute. But Bill, I got it to say, you had to not only listen to, I don't know, total in total, probably a well over a thousand songs and then rank them. And I just think it just makes my head spin to think like there's a lot of

6:21draws you have to decide which is worse, you know, X or Y because they're both terrible or mediocre song. I mean, why do you put yourself through that? It is a sadomestochistic exercise. It is true. And I always say the numbers don't lie. So remember that. But to go back to what I was getting at when I mentioned rock criticism is that they are basically listicles, which are obviously very silly and pathetic things. And particularly in the 2000s with the rise of buzz feed, you know, they took this to this ridiculous level. But one of the things we've thought about is that what if we did a listicle that really wasn't a listicle? Right. And what these really are, honestly, are 10. God help me 15, 20, sometimes 25,000 word exegesis on these artists career. I like writing long as you guys know I was from the reader and I've written for places, let me write long. So basically it's the excuse to write long essay about it. But I put it in the form of these songs. And so sometimes, you know, to be honest, it's just a sentence or two

7:22about a bad Beatles song or bad class song. But along the way, I try to tell the story of the band, the story of the time, the things that were going on. So they're actually very, very long in depth essays on the artist career in the guise of these ridiculous lists. No, yeah. And just between the three of us, the ranking's done really matter. You gave us a chance to talk about these artists and the way you're kind of thumbnail sketch of what they met. Yeah. Right. Well, I think just to make the point clear, Bill, what you have done is a alternative highly opinionated history of each of these bands as well as, you know, critical thoughts. It's a very postmodern book. You know, the list was just the, the clothesline to hang up all of these ideas that you wanted to express. You know, and it's like, you had things that you always wanted to say about the Beatles or about the class or about the Eagles. And this is your. So, so the critical ideas and the history and the,

8:27this is not your dad's rock and roll, a Rolling Stone history of rock and roll. So yeah, it is a cock-eyed take on rock history and your ideas and they're fun. But you intend to start arguments, you know, I'm gonna start right with the Beatles. The worst song the Beatles ever recorded, according to you is Good Day Sunshine. Now, there are some truly lousy Beatles songs and these are that sentence never gets said. And you wanted to say it. I've said it. Greg has said it. You know, it's like if we're gonna really respect the artists, we have to look in the good and the bad. You know, you, you, you cheat, I think, by leaving Bessamé Moucho off the list early Beatles singers. Let me just, let me just, let me just,

9:30let me just let me just list a few that I would say a few hours. I have the same like, you know, right away you go, you go to the best song and the worst song. Yeah. You get a gauge of where, okay, Bill is really putting his flag in the, in the turf with these picks. He, because he knows everybody's gonna read the worst and the best. So when you put Good Day Sunshine, I go right away, I'm going, wait a minute, honey pie, Martha my dear. Yeah. Why don't we do it in the road? When I'm 64. I would argue there's, there's, there's gotta be a dozen 20 songs. There's the Beatles wrote that are way worse than Good Day Sunshine. That, that's kind of an innocuous Anadine song. It doesn't, yeah, bother me. It ain't great. It ain't great. It's not a day in the lives. Yeah. Okay, listen, it's blaring. It's annoying. The piano is annoying. And that line about it burns my feet when they touch the ground. What is he talking about? We take a walk. The sun is shining down.

10:32burns my feet as they touch the ground. It's just completely insane. And, and I really, I want to make one thing really clear though, I am not trolling. You know, you say, oh, Bill's just saying this to start arguments. And honestly, I really, really want to make clear because I do not believe in trolling. I don't believe in just saying things to get a whatever reaction. Yeah, but why, why, Bill? What, what was the, there is always a point when you're, when you're making, it taking a stand like that, you're always trying to make a deeper point. So what was the point you were trying to make about, about either of those songs? I mean, both of them to me are McCartney hearing stuff on American radio that he was impressed with and saying, I can do that because he thought he could do anything. Just that yelling thing of just yelling these three McCartney asked positive words. Good days. I'm shy. It could say it could be good food delicious. He just, it's just, just saying this idiotic stuff. And sometimes I think John didn't have the time of the inclination

11:33or whatever to say, hey, look, let's just do something about this. And it's just a quintessential McCartney song. And, you know, it's, it's a theme that should be brought out. And so then you look at the Eagles and Lion eyes, which is a great song by many standard. And it's just such a hateful anti-woman posturing hypocrisy hypocritical piece of crap that that's the worst Eagles song because in a weird way, it's a good song. And at the same time, it encapsulates so much of what's hateful about them. So in a weird way, both of those sort of anchor a theme of the piece maybe. So I will take that

12:35that sometimes you want to put a signal like what this, you know, what where the grounding is. And the other thing I like about ranking and this was top 10 list too, is that it forces the critic to take a stand so readers can get a sense of, you know, where they stand and stuff like that. I did want to post to you a greater philosophical question about why music critics so love lists. You know, and Greg and I do them twice a year. We do the mid-year best of list and we do the end of you best of list. And I think it's useful, you know, and we always have many caveats built. These are the records we're enjoying most, right? It's a person. We're not saying in the old tradition of the village voice, Paz and Jopoul. These are the most important records. And all three of us have had the distinction of being yelled at by the Dean of American Rock critics, Robert Chris cow, you know, we never fit in his attempts to build an alternative canon. You know, so, but, but I think it forces the critic not to equivocate. You got to take a stand.

13:38And you were brave enough to take a stand so many times with these rankings and say what you value. But, and then we can begin to pick it apart. I mean, you've never understood Pink Floyd. You're nuts, you know, to say that Adam Hart mother. Adam Hart mother, he puts at 165. No, I got 165. You don't, you have you never laid in the ground on the rug in front of a lava lamp with headphones and listen to the horns in Adam Hart mother. What's a matter with you? Before you answer bill, I've got a quote, because I love this quote. There's so many quotable lines that you wrote, but this is one of my favorites. Pink Floyd may be the only rock band that can credibly compare to both the Beatles and spinal tap. That is actually right on, I think.

14:40I think that I agree with that. It's true, but then to not appreciate Adam Hart mother, which is a masterpiece. I actually think the first album is the best album was said. Yeah, well, wish you were here. I think that's it. You got two of the scissors on in your top 10. So I gave you a break. Yeah, no, I mean, and that's one of the themes that Pink Floyd piece that doesn't get said enough is that there's a really, there's at least four different Pink Floyd's. There's the Sid Barrett Pink Floyd. There's the bad psychedelic man drink Pink Floyd. Then you have the classic Pink Floyd and then you have the Roger Waters dominated Pink Floyd, which is the wall and final cut going to a solo career. And then you have the post Roger Waters Pink Floyd. So you have to kind of really, they're almost like the drifters. You have to talk about them in three, at least four different discrete areas. And of course, the first one has its own little bit of rock and all history. I think you know, it tends to be a little overrated by certain critics, but I totally respect it. And then you know, I have to say, Jim, you know, I really, I think we're almost the same age. I came up the same time you did. And I was one of those dorky kids at all Pink Floyd. I got to go buy

15:45when my gumma, I got to go buy Adam Hart and Hart mother. And you know, I had relics when I was growing up and even metal, you know, and so I lived through that and you know, I'd just spend your hard earned money, literally hard earned teenage money. And so you know, at a certain point, I just said, wait a second, these records are just terrible. And then you'll back and read how they came about. It's, it's quite a funny story. It really honestly is the Pink Floyd story is a great rock and all story. And, and you know, I stand by it, but you know, find some people like them. That's great. No, well, you know, I think, I think that if we have a canon and it's a by default that this canon has come to be recognized and your book fittingly ends with making fun of the rock and roll hole of fame, you know, but to the extent that there's a canon, we should always be questioning it, you know, because artists are capable of greatness and true laziness, you know, and if occasionally Bill Wyman slips and gets to you, you know, listing Moby Dick at 83. It's just a, you know, that

16:47riff is killer. And okay, we don't need Bonham's drum solo, but is it really worse than the lemon song, which has I would have to say in my own top three, worse lyrics of all time, you know, it's a lot of bedlens of lemon until the juice runs down my leg. I mean, we've, you know, we've sat with Robert Plant on this show, you know, and you just want to say to him, do you re, I mean, because now, you know, he does these great bluesy, folksy records now and he's so cool and he's listens to so much. And you want to say, really, like, what were you thinking, dude, when you wrote all those songs about Gollum? Just in the darkest depths of my life, my medical soul fell. But Gollum at the evil war, crept up and slipped away with her. What's the truth? Do you know what happened? Are you horribly embarrassed by that? He does. He does look back on, I interviewed him a bunch because I think his solo career has really

17:50been fascinating. Yeah. But he said, yeah, we desecrated that stuff. And he said, I, you know, I don't, you know, I wasn't a very good writer. I was borrowing stuff everywhere, but the, you know, the blatant ripoffs, which you address bill that they ripped off so much stuff. But nothing sounds like them either. No. John Bryan said it was a performance-based band. It was all about the performance. The songs weren't very good, but the performances were phenomenal. Yeah. And they grew and they're an interesting band because I think he was the true, he was actually, I think, the more into the blues than even Jimmy Page was. Yeah. Because Jimmy Page is such a brilliant person that he kind of viewed all music the same in a certain way. And they were instruments for him rather than anything he was dedicated to. And, plant, you know, he actually read books. And so yeah, it is dumb call them. But at least he was reading books, which a lot of his co-evils were. When we return, we'll have more of our conversation with Bill Wyman. That's

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20:05or that parking garage on the lake at Northwestern. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it with sound opinions. It's the best way to support the show. Anybody can make jeans, but you can't do it through religions. That famous thit pockets you recognize instantly stand out stitching. They try to get the full package, but only we have the legacy. Shop the iconography capsule now at True Religion. And we are back. We are talking with our old colleague in the rock journalism criticism trenches Bill Wyman, my old, my first radio sparring partner, Greg, about this new book Bill Wyman's Rock and Roll Lists. Let's get back into the conversation. I straight from my philosophical question, why are critics so

21:09fascinated with lists? And it's not just us, you know, I mean, Ibert and Siskel did them every, you know, every critic does them. Yeah, and some people snare at them. And it kind of depends, it really depends the execution. I mean, people write bad lists and good lists. Boys, for some reason, tend to write like lists, you know, of course, there's high fidelity. The famous, the Horned Bebook that is kind of about boys and record stores making lists. I was a boy in my college record stores working and boy, that was the coolest thing in the world back then. And so, hey, it is this, this almost comical, appreciate part of the boy, you know, rock critic makeup and stuff like this. Like I said, I kind of believe in anything as long as it's written well and it's engaging for the reader, not pretentious and self-serving. So I don't have that much of a problem with it. And this is what I was getting at the beginning about rock criticism, that in a weird way, these lists are actually pieces of press criticism, you know, you can take a, you can take a dumb thing like a list and it's like, Hey, you want a listicle? Okay, well, here's one that's 17,000 words long.

22:15The idea of a listicle being that it's going to be concise and you can read it in two minutes on polar way to the bullet points in the bathroom. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And I say in the introduction, one thing I will never forget, it was something one of those things used to pop up on your, on whatever it was, it would say the seven things Beyonce said on Jimmy Fallon last night, you won't leave number four. Yeah, you know what I mean? And like, there would just be a comma there, it was, it was a run on sentence, it was just so disgusting and so obviously a, a buzz feedie, the classic buzzfeed headline. And so, um, so I guess it just kind of depends what the writer brings to it and how the writer views the audience. Yeah. And I, and I also think lists are a way of, they tell you a lot more about the person making the list as opposed to what's actually on the list. I mean, it's all about your taste, your thoughtfulness, you know, and you're a thoughtful guy. So I can't imagine Bill anyone spending as much time as you did on the Eagles.

23:25Yeah, yeah. I just, I just, I just admire the fact that you were able to sort of commit to that and do it, but why? Yeah. No, it's really true. Okay. So two things. One, there are certain bands this works for and certain bands, it doesn't. So you, I literally could not do this for R.A.M. Love R.A.M. Boy, are they part of my psyche? Right? I mean, just, and you two is another one. I mean, you two, there's a number of bands, I'm sure like with you guys that you saw in a club and you eventually saw them in a stadium, right? So very meaningful, both those bands, but I couldn't write a thing about them because four guys meet each other. They behave fairly, fairly well, try to evolve artistically. Nothing bad happens. Like that's not much fun. But boy, when you talk about, yeah, but with the Eagles, you have these pratfalls and these idiocies and these criminal acts and the hatefulness and the, the, and, and occasional moments of just undeniable, you know, brilliance. I can't argue with it, you know, end of the innocence, the

24:28Don Henley solo album. That's a really good record. And so the Eagles, you know, I just, are your Eagles are the greatest band in the world to write about because you, you have this amazing story to tell, the corporate nature of them. Once you start thinking about it, they really weren't like a lot of rock bands. They weren't friends who grew up together and had a sound and decided to go out and bring it to the people. You know, it's almost like a corporate arrangement from the start. Let's get the proper CEOs in together and managers and we're really engineer this thing and become successful. And that's one of the reasons they were always treated a little bit suspiciously. So actually, the Eagles are a great band to write about with the exception of having to go back and listen to Long Road out of Eden again. Double album, right? Lake Career. Double album. Oh my god. Unbelievable. And

25:39endless. It was worse than I'm a gum. Okay. Oh, and so and then one of the things about the Eagles is that that they were treated poorly by the media. Okay. They've always gripped about the media. There was this legendary feud with Rolling Stone. You know, they had a famous softball match in Central Park. The Eagles against the staff for the Rolling Stone made news across the country. It's just crazy. So I actually went back and I looked in the Rolling Stone archives. Every Eagles record, unqualified rape. Yeah. Oh my god. What a great record Eagles. Oh my god. On the border. Oh my god. Desperado. And it was crazy. And so I literally don't know where that came from. And I talked to someone at Rolling Stone and she said that she thought they had a call called random notes. That was a little kind of gossipy snarky column. And she thought there might have been some snarky things written about them in that. And that's kind of what caused it. But again, it just shows you what a bunch of winers those guys are because what band they never mentioned the sexes, all sorts of problems. They were, they were,

26:42they were, you know, our Kelly were the level arrests that happened to those Eagles guys. And that gets pushed aside. Well, so, you know, I should mention that we're talking to you. I don't think I've mentioned this. You've been based in Australia for quite some time. You're writing and teaching down there. You know, so you are fairly well insulated, except if you, you know, have, have set off any native people, Pink Floyd fans. So, so the hate that comes your way. And you've been talking about this book being out, promoting blurbs. I mean, I gave you one, but also hate mail you've gotten in response to these lists published in New York and other places. You know, you kind of pride yourself on ticking people off bill. Do you just think that they can't reach you down there in Australia? No, I mean, because a lot of them I wrote in America. And I know that you guys both believe this and be even more than less one of the great things. And of course, your show is the opinion of this is just arguing about music. It's not that anyone's

27:45correct. It's not that anyone's wrong. It's that, I mean, you're wrong. I just say that because you are wrong and a lot of things. But that that everyone gets to have their say. And we would always have listeners call in whatever they said. That's great. You might disagree, but everyone gets to have their say back in the old days in the reader. If you remember the letter section of the reader, just overfilled with people yelling about this or that. But I firmly believe this. And this was a reader preset that when people wrote in, the writer didn't get to write back and mouth off and be insulting. You had to respond if there was a factual issue, but then people got their say. And so, I really do sincerely believe in that everyone does get to have their say. And everyone should be encouraged to have their say. I just, and the fact that some people are snarky, that's fine. I mean, there's a little bit of engagement. And I honestly try not to troll. I mean, I might have slipped up here and there. And sometimes you're settling old scores in kind of funny ways. But often they're just personal things. You know, sometimes you have an issue of a song because you associate with

28:48a certain person or something like that. But it is true that there is sometimes a two-per-easure, but I think that's really, really good. Everyone should be able to have their say. And the critics do not get the last word. That's my other thing I really care about is that critic does not get the last word. No, that's, I think that's noble. Obviously, I wanted to hear you articulate that. In this time of ultra-polarization, it's a good time not to be in America, Bill Wyman. You know, I mean, people can't argue anymore politely. And as sport, you know, and you encourage that still happening in the arts. You know, I've read, you know, there's exceptions. Music, I think, is less healthy. I've read some incredibly scathing reviews of the Odyssey and some incredible raves. And I'm glad they're all sharing space, you know. But we can't do that about Nirvana, for example. That having been said, what the hell? Smells like teen spirit. It's too easy for number one.

29:50What's wrong with you? I remember sitting with him, Greg, and reviewing in utero the week it came out and him not recognizing its brilliance. I stand by, you know, you needing both sides of in utero, the noise and the melody, Bill Wyman, but you never understood that record. But smells like teen spirit. Come on. Couldn't you have lifted something a little heavier? What's it matter with you? Right song, but it should be number three or four, just, you know, yeah, I just had to go with that in the end, really honestly. It's just been such a dominant song. And I don't know. And back then people might not know this back then, you get like these, these cassettes, you know, and sometimes they were even unmarked or handwritten on. Yeah. And I remember my girlfriend, Elise, when I got, I got never mind the advanced cassette in the mail. You

30:55know, we went down and we put it into the cassette debt of her car and we put that song on. And I never got that cassette back, you know, she took it. And it was just such an amazing moment in rock history. It was so great to be alive. Then it was so exciting. Nobody understood what was going to happen. And to this day, I really loved that song. It was really fun going back through all the Nirvana stuff. You heart shaped box is such a powerful, wonderful song. Dumb. I love so much. Yeah. And but also that one was where with the writing, you know, you needed to bring that story, which is such a sad story to it. And the fact that you did sort of delve into Nirvana, that's probably the group with the slightest catalog, right, to dive into. And that was one of the two new entries because the other stuff in the book had been published elsewhere. Why did you focus on Nirvana? Why did you think that was one of the two bands that you had to include in

31:56in the book? Well, that's a great question. It's because we all lived through that right at the time. Chicago played a little, played a little supporting role in that story, as you guys know. I think Greg, you were just telling me the other day that first time you talked to Kirk O'Vane, right, was outside what Metro and the open for a little dream day. Yeah. And the alley back there, they were loading up their van. And I think they were actually going to go record with Bush Vig. They were going to start doing the demo session with Vig in at Smart Studios. This is like 1990. And Kirk met Courtney the night at Metro when she dumped his ex-boyfriend, Billy Corrigan. And Jim had a great relationship with Courtney Love. You know, we just, you know, it was just such a great crazy time and such a meaningful time in all of our lives. And of course, one of the great rock and roll stories in the Saturn sense. And but not just that, but just the rise of alternative rock and the underground and how the underground was very suspicious of commerciality. And again,

32:58this is so long ago, but, but, you know, Liz Fair, Urge Overkill and The Smashing Pumpkins, there was a huge underground rejection of them because they were considered to be too commercial. I literally, I won't mention his name, but I literally had a conversation with a guy in Lounge Act. He said, Oh, Liz Fair sold out when she went to Matador. Matador. Matador, which was a very marginal, not, not marginal, but it was a, it was a very hip, cool, New York label, but it was like pavement. And I think come was on a few bands like this. There were no platinum sellers on Matador. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a huge thing. Steve Elbeany was the patron saint of that whole thing. And so, and that's one of my favorite things as well. Because again, I grew up in that the left of the dial era, you know, where you'd see your bands, you know, playbills on telephone polls or in fanzines or you'd listen to the college radio, she drove across the country. So that to me, just really part of my makeup. And the other thing is that someone from, you know, because like you guys, I grew up listening to Pink Floyd,

34:03the Rolling Stones, Liz Zeppelin, punk rock came along, which was a great hope. And that kind of didn't ever really go places. And then to have all that finally vindicated in 1991 was such a thrilling moment. So to me, that's just a really great time in music. I love stuff about 30 stuff, about the record industry. So of course, there's a lot of that. So it really was a great case study in a cultural phenomenon. And we kind of lived through it day by day. I mean, just, just all the crazy stuff that would happen. And then of course, his death, which was just terrible. And then all the crazy stuff in the aftermath. Yeah. When we return, Bill Wyman defends more of his indefensible rankings. That's in a minute on Sound Dependence. Sound Dependence is an independent production supported by listeners like me on Patreon. Join us in keeping independent music criticism in the world by clicking the link

35:09in this episode's description. And we're back. This week Bill Wyman is here to talk about his rock and roll lists. Let's get back into it. All right, but Bill, you're worrying me, man. We did come up at the same time. We were born around the same time. You know, you're talking like such an old man. What's the last record you heard to blew you away? You know, that's funny. And to be honest, I don't review records all the time now. I don't keep up on things. But I'll tell you one thing I think is super interesting is if I had to say like what are like three of my of the best songs just of the last 20 years in a weird way. I really love that boy genius song strong enough, which I just think is just such a beautiful, amazing song with just, you know, and again, with great rock and roll reddoled, a resonance in it, you know, listening to boys don't cry as you drive down the Pacific highway or whatever. Believe it or not, that chapel-roam song, good luck, babe. I just think that is a sensational thing. And I don't think

36:10she wrote it, but just what a great pop, you know, defiant, hilarious kind of conception. And she just, she's such a crazy figure. And maybe you guys, you know, I just saw Taylor Swift recently, and boy, that is a great show. And, you know, I think she's a little plastic in certain ways. Yeah, but she's an amazing figure. And I think all too well is a great song. And I think, I think that's like a Bruce Springsteen song. I mean, Bruce Springsteen is in that song. How come you didn't take all of Jim's buttons now? How come you didn't tackle Springsteen? Well, that's funny too. Okay, there's another thing that he is just such a heavy lift because there's so many albums at this point. Yeah. And I'm not really a Bruce Bacher except for Outlaw Pete, which I think is a really a shockingly bad song. Well, even Springsteen fans hate that song. Yeah. How come I see my top?

37:21I move to the edge and don't expose deep into his full inside. It's like one of the most incredibly unbelievably bad songs I've ever heard. And, but at the same time, there's so many of those loyal records. And then you got the track set and stuff like that, that. And then I've just never really wanted to do, you know, ranking someone up to a certain point. I mean, you could do it up to tunnel of love, but I wouldn't want to do the double records, you know, the two records he put out at the same time, you know, human touch and lucky town. Yeah. Yeah. Because even that really brings down. And I even cheated a little bit in the Pink Floyd one because they put out some record. Didn't they put like a two records set out of kind of instrumental and something or other. And I kind of dismissed that. So I try to be complete. So now again, and even him, he has had a few pratfalls. But, you know, there's not the high drama, I guess. That's true. That's true. So yes, we're definitely looking for drama. Yes. Yeah. Well,

38:25and that's why Michael Jackson, I mean, in addition to being one of the most important artists of three decades there, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of a lot of crappy albums to go through. You know, like you even say yourself, I think in your list is that after Thriller, there's not really a lot to get excited about. No. You know, yeah, there's some terrific, amazing pop constructions and all that. Oh, I to go back to Pink Floyd for a second. Do I have this right that I think it was on one of your shows where you guys were talking about Pink Floyd. And did you guys think mother was the big Pink Floyd best Pink Floyd song? No. No, but it's up there. It's pretty great. It's good. It's a good song. Yeah, because I remember I think when I was originally writing that, I think if you go back and I think I mentioned that you guys talked about it. Yeah, we liked this song. I think. Yeah. Why you made it? Oh, yeah. So like I said, there's no counting. No counting for bad taste. Is that what you're saying? Exactly.

39:26Oh, they Why is mother a bad song? Well, it's something that's a bad song. I just don't, it just didn't resonate. I mean, I hear stuff like that. And I think, oh my god, Jim and Jim and Greg like that song. I got to go back. What am I missing? Yeah. And I'm sure you guys do this, but another thing I remember about us to our credit is that every year we bash the rock and roll Hall of Fame. I mean, I think we all agree that that's something that should not exist. No, and that's like a really confusing and confounding thing the way that has evolved. Then I don't check every single one of your shows. Have you guys been following the Hall of Fame recently? We know, but we it's so irrelevant to us. It's as irrelevant as the Grammys. You know, I mean, we might mention something in an orbit like one sentence, but that's it. We don't care. Okay. And do you know that Lionel Richie is in the Rock and Roll of Fame now? Right.

40:30Right. Yeah. And why put Stevie and I mean, you you you take aim at Stevie Nix being there at 274 Fleetwood Max at 96. I know you like Fleetwood Mac. You got that California thing. But, you know, it has just as a solo artist just to be clear of the Fleetwood Max at Fine Bams. And then they go, Jimmy Ivean is on the board. Oh, let's get my buddy, Stevie Nix. Right. Right. Well, well, Kraftwerk inventors of an entire genre. We could go of music. Has not made it. Yeah. We can go on and on about that. It's ridiculous. It's it's it's it's it's again, it's who you know, it says more about the people voting than the actual worth of the artist, I think, right? You do mention and I missed this when you'd written your original Hall of Fame article. Blood on the tracks is the best rock album ever made. There's no equivocating there. I didn't you know, I wasn't aware of that. You're you're profound love and there's nothing wrong with that bill. But wow, that is quite a statement. We've done a couple of shows on the

41:33Blood on the tracks. Oh, it's it's a perfect record. I mean, it's just an I'm it's just hard to think of any record that's just so perfect from start to finish that just reverberates in the same way. The sound of it. It's magical. There's, you know, at first one came out, everyone said tangled up in blue and then then you guys oh my god, idiot wind is a profound song and then you always what the hell is going on with shelter from the storm. And if I pass this way again, you can rest assured. I always do my best for her. Oh, not I'll give my word. In the world of steel out death and men who are fighting to be warm. Come in, she said, I'll give you shelter from the storm. And there are just so many profound things. He's so honest and naked. He he he he you know, is so curled in so many different ways over so many years and so many crazy ways. But to this day, I just think that's a record that you can put on and and be taken into a place that's kind of the the epitome of you know, what you call singer songwriting. I'm

42:34in addition to all the other amazing things he did. You know, it's the greatest singer songwriter, personal love song type album of all time. And so yeah, I would just make a strong case for that. That ties in with what we're talking about here. The idea of the list says more about the maker of the list than the actual, you know, artists that are being discussed. And I think, I think if you being a person of a certain stage in life and you listen to something like Blood on the tracks, there's a point where that that album becomes your whole, you know, being my introduction to Dylan really was that album too. And I love that album and I can't I can't unequivocally say that it's the greatest Dylan album, but it's the one that means the most to me because that was the album that I listened to in its entirety first from Dylan and thought this is the most amazing thing I've ever heard. I don't know if that experience was like that for you, but for me, it was like the introduction to his his his greatness, you know, Jim, and how do you feel about Blood on the tracks? I'll take Blondon Blond. Yeah, but for personal reasons, I think that was my introduction that made

43:38me realize this guy is not just an old fart baby boom, you know, which because we have spent our careers as music critics to varying degrees, you me and Greg in opposition to the baby boomer hegemony, right? They owned rock and roll. They're going to tell us what's brilliant. You you snot knows young punk. You were too young for Woodstock, you know, you've missed out on everything. You didn't have the Beatles. You were, you know, I was full six when the Beatles broke up. So, you know, you were saying, right, you know, and it was like, well, the hell with you, I've seen Nirvana. I've been to raves in the woods in Houston, Wisconsin. I've been to Lila, Poliz, so we've all been fighting that, you know, so so and that's really another thing here. And now we're like the last surviving rock critics, you know, I mean, who else is still doing this? I mean, aside from the fact that it doesn't pay and it doesn't matter, nobody else can be wasted. Nobody else is wasting their time with it. You know, well, it's so there's another little footnote to rock history that back in the 70s,

44:45you know, there was a famous issue of Rolling Stone that had Led Zeppelin on the cover, right? And that was Cameron Crowe's first cover story, right? Eric, he was 16 years old. He won the road and it became the basis of almost famous, the movie and blah, blah, blah. What people forget about that and I was a dumb kid is that was my first issue of Rolling Stone that I actually went out and bought. Okay, kind of seen it around. I was 12, I must have been 13 maybe. And but you go into it and then you come to the record reviews section. I don't know if you guys remember this. There's two reviews of Blood on the Track, one by John Landau, who would be coming. Yes, I remember that. And then they're by Jonathan Codd and there's a footnote to that too that one of them refers to a certain song where you can hear Dylan's gene jacket by clicking on the guitar. And the thing is, as some people know, Dylan changed it and he swapped out some versions of some songs with the Minneapolis sessions. But so they were actually reviewing the early edition of the album. Okay, so that's how crazy it was back then. But then you turn the page

45:48and they had 12 more reviews like capsule reviews, you know, Dave Marsh, Ellen Willis, whoever, all the critics of the time, which was just when I was a kid, I was like, what is going on? So that's another thing I remember that there was an import given to the album at the time by Rolling Stone that was unprecedented. Yeah, the idea of like, you know, being able to review an album with some level of insight that that all occurred to me around that album, you know, like you were saying, the fact that they were devoting this much time and space because I started subscribing Rolling Stone around that time because my, you know, my interest in music, that type of music was peaking. So yeah, you're absolutely right. It not only is it, you know, an important album for us, but also the idea of being a rock critic. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think Bill is a good place to wrap up. You know, Greg and I would each talk for half an hour

46:59in response to this question, but, you know, you've devoted your life and career as far as writing to criticism. You know, there's a thought, a school of thought in this age, that, you know, it's all about the algorithm, you know, criticism, there's no need for it, there's no purpose for it, there's way no what's, you know, nobody reads it, nobody cares. Why is criticism still matter, Bill Wyman? Oh boy, you know, that is such a great question because it's even worse than that because the algorithms work against it because if they're saying something negative about something you like, there is a certain one in which, you know, they use the algorithms to provoke you and stuff like this, but still one of the problems I worry about the book is that, you know, someone, Michael Jackson fan might say, wait a minute, he's being mean to Michael Jackson, wait a minute, he's being mean to the Eagles, you know, so it kind of, you know, you kind of hurt yourself if you're not coddling people. And then of course, we have this phenomenon of popism, which I know you guys both know about popism and optimism and over the last 20 or 30 years, it's been evolved where critics don't really, they're

48:03not critical. They're on the side of the artist. It's like raw, raw, they're overcoming all these obstacles. They're back on top. They really don't want to be famous, but fame was forced on them and they didn't want the record contract, but they grudgingly accepted it. And I mean, you just, this is permeates the times so much pop writing. And Jim, people can go back and read about this. Jim was at the center of it. There was an idiot at the time who were a big story about this and attack Jim for utterly spurious reasons. The treatment of Arkelly in the New York Times and a whole bunch of other places is the epitome of optimism where they just said, oh, he has these little legal problems, but he's still back on top. He's a mischievous Lothario. I mean, it's absolutely disgusting. And you can, people can look up an article I wrote for BuzzFeed, which I think tracked this really, really well about Arkelly in the New York Times. And the guy literally attacked Jim for, for something he wrote about the April of the and it wasn't even negative. For not being nice enough. Yeah, it was,

49:07it was no, you know, but Bill, Khalifa, St. As the staff writer at the New Yorker now, you know, sure is. So, you know, it's like optimism paid for some people. And Ryan Schreiber at the right, Paul, you know, maybe he's 45 is retired founder of Pitchford music. Critic is now shorthand for Hater. You know, you can't say anything negative. Otherwise, you'll be pilloried, you know, by anybody who's fans of those band, it's just like a pile up, you know, of hatefulness. And yeah, that is hence we don't see any really negative reviews of G Sir turn style, whoever is the flavor of the living robbery go. Yes, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's disparity. Not that they need to be negativity in the world, just that there needs to be a vibrant conversation. If these artists are worth considering, let's have both sides. Right. Let's have a hundred sides. Exactly. And I would say that that it's not even a matter of opinion, it's empirically

50:09proofable. You can go to Metacritic. The Metacritic site, which tracks all the reviews and look at film and there's, you know, they, they use their red, yellow and green lights and you can see there's movies to get bad reviews and mediocre reviews and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You go to the music site of Metacritic. Every single album is green. Everyone, they're like negative reviews almost don't exist. And then my own little contributor to Metacriticism is when you get to artists like the stones where it's like every record is their best records and some girls. And for crying out I wrote that article in 1995 for the Chicago reader. Yeah, I'm writing it ever since. That every new Rolling Stones record they go, the last one is no good, but the new one, they're back in top rock and form. It's their best records and some girls or some very best records since tattoo you or whatever. Then we lie beneath a shady tree. I love her and she loving me. Bill Wyman, it is a pleasure catching up with you, chat and rock and roll with you.

51:11We could argue for hours. Bill Wyman's rock and roll list is out now. It's a fun book. It is so much more than rock and roll list. So although it is 100% Bill Wyman, that's true. There's no more Bill Wyman-ish Bill Wyman than the Bill Wyman of this book. That's right. Exactly. It is so great to be back talking to you guys. It really honestly is such a thrill. And people in Chicago, as speaking of criticism, I don't know if people appreciate that the rock critic core that you guys had going on Chicago. I don't think there's any city in America that had two critics that were as based in reporting as aggressive, as opinionated, as and unconnected to the industry, draws as you two guys. So you guys have done really, really great stuff there. That wraps up our chat with Bill Wyman and now we want to hear from you. Do you have a best or worst Beatles song to share? Which of Bill's rankings infuriated you the most share your thoughts and a voice message on our website sounddependence.org. That guy almost makes

52:14you and me look reasonable. What do we have on the show next week? Next week, Jim, we're going to celebrate the 80th birthday of the late great John Prine. A lot of celebrations going on. We had them on the show once. We're going to revisit that. And we're going to talk about some of the great music he made in his career. And don't forget to check out our bonus podcast feed wherever you get your podcasts and join us on Patreon for our Monday podcast, everything else. Thanks as always to our Patreon community, especially Don Margarian from Baltimore, Maryland, who listens to WTMD. Thanks, Don. This episode of Sound Opinions was produced by Alex Claiborne, Andrew Gill and Max Hattlin. Our business development manager is Gary Yonker and our social media consultant is Katie Cotton.

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