Rape Courts: Will They Make A Difference?

0:00This podcast is part of the Crime Desk, the true home of True Crime. Get all our episodes earlier than anyone else and listen ad-free by becoming a subscriber at TheCrimeDesk.com. Welcome to Trial UK. Will Rape Courts Make A Difference? I'm Liz Hull. Losing Way can feel like a roller coaster, full of ups, downs, and being thrown for loops, like when someone brings donuts into the office, or your kids' dino nuggets start giving you that look again. That's why there's noom. They combine GLP ones to quiet the food noise with healthy habits that help you keep it quiet, even if you get off the meds. Their program is designed to make weight loss a smooth ride, helping you understand what

1:02drives you, so you can build better habits to not just lose weight but keep it off. Noom. Lose for Keeps. Get Started At Noom.com. Not all customers will clinically qualify for medications. Individual results may vary. Hey, I'm Paige Disorbo from Gagley Squad and I want to talk to you about Armand Hammer Hard Ball Cat Litter. Because when it comes to fighting cat odor, they are the champs. Like what smell? The litter box was my biggest fear when I got my kitty daffney, but since I started using Armand Hammer Cat Litter, I don't notice any cat smell. I always feel confident about anyone stopping by, whether it's my friends or my family, or even people in my building. So for my fellow cat parents, be guest ready with Armand Hammer Hard Ball Cat Litter. Did it now at Walmart or Amazon? Mohamed Alphired was the billionaire businessman who owned the iconic store, Harrods. Together they projected an image of wealth, luxury and glamour. In the wake of his death, that image was shattered when hundreds of former Harrods employees came

2:06forward to accuse Alphired of grooming, abuse and assault. But this was more than just one man. It was a trafficking network on the scale of Jeffrey Epstein. I'm journalist Nicola Thorpe and I've been speaking with survivors to uncover the system that shielded Alphired from justice. He may be dead, but those who enabled him are still alive. This is Alphired, who looked away. A new series launching September 19th. Crime des subscribers get the entire series on day one, ad free. Join now at the Crime des dot com. So today on the podcast, we're focusing on those new government proposals that were announced yesterday that are designed to improve the experience of rape victims in the criminal justice system.

3:09Now we know that's a massive problem. Convictions for rape have historically been and continue to be pretty terrible. The most up to date figures we've got after March 2024. And I showed that just 2.8% of rape offenses recorded by the police end up in prosecution. So that's abysmally low, quite frankly. So often we hear that the fear of facing their perpetrator in court stops women from reporting of rape and sexual offenses. And we know also that the length of time it takes for those offenses to be investigated also puts women off or causes them to give up even before they get to court. Now just to give you a few stats, we've spoken before about this on the pod a lot, but there is a massive backlog in the court system, which means that there's roughly 80,000 cases currently waiting to get a trial. So that means on average, victims are waiting 259 days for their case to get to court.

4:11But the situation for rape offenses is even worse. Rape victims are waiting even longer, well over a year in fact, with the average rate for them being around 424 days. And in total there's about 7,000 rape cases in the system at any one time. And when you add in sexual assaults, that jumps to a massive 22,000. So it's hardly surprising that rape victims complain about feeling let down by the justice system and retraumatized by the whole ordeal of going to a trial and court. So the government are really trying to do something about it. Yesterday they announced these new measures to try and improve things. They're part of the government's wider strategy to have violence against women and girls in a decade. But as part of these new measures announced yesterday is 23 million pounds investment, which is going to be used to open up at least one courtroom in every crown court in England and Wales that will be dedicated to hearing rape and sexual assault cases.

5:14So the raining to do that within the next two years. But as well as these dedicated courts, they're also going to try and improve the experience of victims by allowing women to view proceedings remotely. And to give evidence from a separate room via video link. Now some of that does take place already. But I think they're going to roll this out further to try and make women feel more comfortable about giving evidence in court. There's also quite a new idea, which I haven't heard before, which they've announced, which means that wherever possible. So for example, if the architecture of the court building allows it, rape victims will also be given access via a separate private entrance to the courtroom. They're going to be allowed to sit in a private waiting room while they wait for the case to be called on. And the idea behind that is to try and avoid them coming face to face with their alleged perpetrator in the corridors, in the queue to get in insecurity in the canteen, which obviously some victims have said really makes the whole ordeal of coming to court so much worse.

6:18We've been told that court staff will also be giving trauma informed training. And victims will be assigned a single person as a point of contact to support them while their case is ongoing. The government has said that the new measures will also include a new rape justice task force, which will draw on leaders from across the criminal justice system to tackle the rising rate of postponed rape trials. But most significantly really from next month, trials will also be given a fixed date, rather than being placed on floating lists. Now, the idea behind that is what the Prime Minister Andy Burnham's called an effort to rebalance the scales of justice and put victims first. But given what we know about how things move around in the court system, because of, for example, the late serving of evidence, changes to defense statements, all those sorts of things, it's going to be really interesting to see if this can actually be achieved if these fixed court days are realistic. And we thought who better to ask about these proposals and to see if they're working practice,

7:21then senior barrister and friend of the podcast Mary prior Casey. Welcome back to the podcast Mary. It's a pleasure. So first off, just give us your kind of general reaction, I suppose, to these new measures that the government have announced yesterday. News and interesting wordless. They're not new. These proposals were things that the Criminal Bar Association and the Bar Council were explaining to the new government when they first came into power. OK. We've always said that priority needs to be given to these sorts of cases in every single way. But of course, you will know that the government decided to focus on removing the right to jury trial for lots and lots of offenses. And therefore got Subrion Levison to do a report on that. And literally everything in the criminal justice system had to wait until that was finalized.

8:26And so we're now two years down the line from when the government came into office. Yeah. And we don't know what they're going to do about removing the right to jury trials. They say that rape was never in that equation. I'm not sure that's technically true. But it didn't ever reach the stage of being a formal suggestion. But that doesn't mean that lots of sexual offenses would not have been caught within the system where the right to jury trial would have been removed. We've wasted two years is what I would say. We're two years further down the line. And in those two years, the very least that the government could have done is open every courtroom in the crown court across England and Wales to reduce the backlog. They didn't do that at the start. There's still somewhere between 10 and 15% of crown court rooms closed on a daily basis.

9:32Those are empty spaces where people could be having their trials. Yeah. So we're glad something's happening. We're sad. It's taken two years for anything properly to start. And in that two years, the backlog's just been getting worse. I presume I think we're up to about 80,000 cases. And of those, I was mentioning a few stats in my preamble to our interview about 22,000 of them involved sexual assaults and rape. So there's a lot of women, mainly women, a lot of women waiting for their day in court, anxious, waiting over a year, a lot of the time. Because of course, a lot of these alleged perpetrators will be on bail, which means that they take longer to get the court generally because there's no custody time limit. Yes. You have to go back in time, though, Liz, because most offenses are not charged within a short period of time at all.

10:33It can take years. And I mean years for anyone to be charged. And it isn't unusual from a date of an allegation to the date of a trial to be four years or more. It's not an unusual situation. And can I just say one thing? I fully appreciate that the focus for the government is on people who have been raped. But can I just remind everyone that not everyone who is accused of rape is guilty of it? And there are lots of people on bail who are accused of sexual offenses, whose entire life is also on hold for the four years or they're about these cases take to come to court. Yeah, of course. If you are accused of raping an adult woman, for example, social services will do a full investigation on your own children.

11:35Yeah. And you can be taken away from them for a period of time, whilst that investigation goes on. I don't by any means suggest that we mustn't focus on victims, but we mustn't forget either that not everyone accused is guilty. And for everyone waiting for the trial, whether it's the person making the complaint, their family members, those they've spoken to, a person accused and their family members, it's living hell. Yeah, of course. I mean, everyone's right is innocent and until proven guilty. That's the fundamental building blocks of the justice system, isn't it? So you're right, as well as the alleged victim, there's the alleged perpetrator that has this hanging over them for years. And it does no one any favors does it at all? I tell you what, I was really interested in your views on Mary when I read these proposals, because I've been around courtrooms for probably getting on 20 years now in my career. You've probably been around them much longer than that as well.

12:37And you've seen a lot more because you're there every single day, but I was interested in this proposal that people who are alleged victims of rape will get a fixed court hearing trial date. Now, I have to admit that when I saw that, I thought, how on earth is that going to work in practice? Because I know things get kicked down the line for whatever reason. I don't know, the prosecution aren't quite ready. The defense statement hasn't been served. So and so hasn't been interviewed. That witness hasn't been interviewed. There's all sorts of things that get in the way, don't know of keeping to a trial date. There are Liz, but just start with understanding that up until now, there was not any guarantee that if you were accused of rape or you were a person who had been raped, that the date you got would be fixed up until now, that date could be a movable feast. Not in every court, lots of courts of their own volition put what they call fixed dates in, but it's only fixed if the court room it's in finishes the case ahead of it.

13:48If the prosecution barrister and the defense barrister haven't overrun in other cases, if the court building is functioning, so it's not leaking too cold to what. If there's a judge available to do the case, and if we've got a jury available to do the case, because understand what's being suggested here is not a brand new building. No. With good facilities, different access points and guarantees that that court building will only be used for those cases. This is one courtroom per court centre. There are 80 crown courts in England and Wales, that means 80 court rooms are guaranteed to be running these cases with fixtures, but fixtures only work if you have enough people. And at the moment, there is a national shortage of criminal barristers who prosecute and defend in these cases.

14:50So obviously, as well as this fixed date, there's this pledge that every crown court will have one court room dedicated to rape and sexual offenses. And there's also this interesting proposal that alleged victims will be allowed to enter a different entrance and have a specialist waiting room. So they're not potentially coming face to face with their alleged attacker in the canteen or in the corridors or, you know, queuing up for security. But practically, is that going to work, Mary? The important words there, Liz, are if the architecture of the building allows. Yeah, I did see that in the government's press release. Yeah. So they don't all allow that. There are buildings where there isn't a separate entrance. There are buildings when you go down to the witness care area. And the room is so full, there's actually nowhere to speak privately to the person that you are wanting to talk to.

15:55Where there are newer courts and courts have been purpose built in modern times, you may have a different entrance and exit. But in other courts, you'll all be queuing up to go through the same entrance. And this is why we have said repeatedly, specialist courts should mean a court building, which is specialised with different entrances and exits, different car park areas, facilities to get something from a canteen because most courts don't have a canteen anymore. So you might have a separate entrance and exit, but then you're all queuing up at the local cafe, the same local cafe for your tea, coffee or your lunch. We think that what's being suggested here is much better than nothing. We understand there's a lot to be done. But if we were rearranging things, then we could easily build a court centre, which specialises in violence against women and girls.

17:01Because sexual offenses are offenses of violence. And everyone who is subject of violence should be equally in many ways prioritised. How do I explain to someone who's been strangled and coerced? That they have to wait longer than someone who has been raped? I understand that all of these things will be prioritised, but everyone in that scenario is a vulnerable person. And what we actually need are more criminal baristas who are willing to prosecute and defend these cases. We'll need more judges who take a sex ticket because you have to have specialist training to do this type of work. And we really need to think long term about the best way of doing this. Is the best way of doing this just putting a sign on one courtroom door in a building saying this is the specialist court?

18:04Or is it to build more? So do you think it's a sticking plaster really? What the government is suggesting? They have so much to do with it because the criminal justice system was in a complete shambles. And they are doing the best they can, I'm sure, in difficult circumstances. But we need to think about the long term. But think about the time, effort and energy that was spent on creating a new system where we get rid of deories for lots of offenses. We have a whole new crown court bench division. It was suggested, magistrate, judges and all the rest of it. They were willing to put the effort and money into that. So where's that up to now? It's going to go before Parliament in a couple of weeks. Yes, then we'll know a bit more. Yeah. But I do think that the suggestion of a judge and two magistrates making these decisions has gone because the government have worked out they can't get enough magistrates recruited.

19:07I don't know what's happening about having magistrates dealing with more serious cases in the magistrates court because there are two problems with that. There's a national shortage of magistrates. And also it was all based on the gawk review, which suggested that no one, really, if at all possible, getting a sentence of 12 months or less in prison, should actually face an immediate custodial sentence. Now that is now the guidance, but it's not guidance that the public like. They don't appreciate that guidance. And whilst there are exceptions, generally the public don't think that prison is a bad thing. And so I think again that's gone slightly on the back burner. So it will all become clear as and when people make proper decisions. But what I would say to you Liz is that I'm one of the people, as you all know,

20:0936 years I've been doing this. And one of the hardest things to do, one of the reasons that people keep leaving this job is having to walk down to the witness care waiting room, look someone in the face, or walk over to someone in a conference room who's been accused of rape and look them in the face and say, I'm really sorry, your case can't go ahead now. It's going to be adjourned for another year or 18 months. It's heartbreaking for them. You can see pain, whichever side you can see the pain. Yeah. And it's so frustrating isn't it? And like you said for a whole variety of reasons, we've spoken before about court buildings not being fit for purpose, you know, not enough staff, ushers, court staff, witness, service people. You know, so in a way, of course, it can only be good news that each court building is going to have a dedicated court room open. But I'm, forgive me, I'm both of us probably a bit skeptical about if it's realistic and it's going to actually work.

21:17Liz, it's 2026. It's a long time since we put a man on the moon and a woman on the moon. But we still don't have, would you believe, within the police force, dedicated teams across the country who just deal with rape and serious sexual offences. That's something that's going to come in by the end of 2027. We still don't have across the country, especially trained 999 operators to deal with sexual offences. We still don't have all the court rooms open and we still don't have a situation where every courtroom has good technology to enable all of the special measures of using a video and using live link to properly work. They're often suboptimal. So there's a lot to do, but rather than be simply negative and say, well, this isn't good enough, I'd say it's better than nothing, but there's still an awful long way to go.

22:28We're just going to take a quick break and we'll be back with Mary after this. Losing weight can feel like a roller coaster, full of ups, downs, and being thrown for loops, like when someone brings donuts into the office, or your kids' dino nuggets start giving you that look again. That's why there's noom. They combine GLP ones to quiet the food noise with healthy habits that help you keep it quiet, even if you get off the meds. Their program is designed to make weight loss a smooth ride, helping you understand what drives you, so you can build better habits to not just lose weight, but keep it off. Noom. Lose for keeps. Get started at noom.com. Not all customers will clinically qualify for medications. Individual results may vary. Hey, I'm Paige Disorbo from Gagley Squad and I want to talk to you about Arm and Hammer, hard ball cat litter.

23:29Because when it comes to fighting cat odor, they are the champs. Like, what smell? The litter box was my biggest fear when I got my kitty daffney, but since I started using Arm and Hammer cat litter, I don't notice any cat smell. I always feel confident about anyone stopping by, whether it's my friends or my family or even people in my building. So for my fellow cat parents, be guest ready with Arm and Hammer hard ball cat litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon. Welcome back. I'm still here with Senior Barrister Mary prior KC. So Mary, before the break, we were talking about the government still have a long way to go. And they're talking about investing about 23 million pounds. It's part of the government's strategy to tackle violence against women and girls. And I agree it feels a bit like they're kind of chipping away at some huge iceberg, I suppose.

24:32It's difficult to make inroads into the situation because of years of underfunding that the system is in such a mess. It's like being constantly in the accident and emergency department. That's how it feels as a practitioner. Jury trials work and what worries me most about all of the publicity and the things that go along with it is that lots of people don't come forward because they believe that they won't get a conviction. They believe that they'll never have a trial and the trial won't be a fair process. But actually the cases we get on, Jury's do come to decisions. And you are more likely to be found guilty of rape than not guilty. And it's much more likely if the rape is of a child or young person. And so it's very difficult when you hear nothing but negativity.

25:33When what you really need to say to people is the system does work if it's funded. It can work, it's worked and it continues to work. Of course changes need to be made. We're learning all the time. It's one of those areas where science, psychology, psychiatry, trauma, informed training is improving and improving. We can all do better. We're all learning all the time. Next Saturday for example, I'm giving up my morning to teach the next generation of baristas about rape and serious sexual offences and I've been doing that for the best part of 15 years. We're all committed. But we're getting nothing in return. The government has to properly invest in the entirety of the system. From the police station, right through to the end of the trial process and the custody process

26:34and probation. It's not going to be a quick or cheap fix but if they want to make a difference, they really do have to do something which seems to be a struggle for everyone I think in all walks of life, which is to listen to the people who do the job on the ground because we can recommend all sorts of ways to make positive change that don't cost that much. But we can't improve the buildings bliss. No, but do you think they are listening to the Criminal Bar Association and the Baristas? I know Brian Levison obviously did a lot of research before. He delivered his report. But I know that from speaking to you before that you were disappointed with the outcome of that and I just wonder whether there needs to be more collaboration. Would you agree? I think the second part of Sabrina Levison's report where he was talking about practical ways of improving productivity was an excellent product.

27:37No way could I suggest that's anything other than good. Getting rid of juries never seemed to me to be an acceptable, sensible way forward because as I've said to you before is a fundamental part of the criminal justice system in this country is openness. So the people, the citizens of the communities in which crime take place must make the decisions about guilt or innocence for serious crime. People deemed that a fundamental right. So yes, I'm bound to be heavily against that. But his second part of the report which deals with reform and making things quicker and more efficient. So many good ideas within there. He did listen to us about that. The government have had lots and lots of meetings with us. We tell them things they listen. But there has been very slow progress. Now I fully appreciate it's not easy to change systems.

28:39But one of the things that we suggested and we've been suggesting for many years now relates to the fact, for example, that each and every time we explain that there are insufficient baristas to do criminal work. We say to them, look, just give us the same pay review body that all civil servants get. We'll be very happy to have the same pay increase or lack of pay increase to take account of inflation as everyone else. But we don't get that. We have to actually fight each and every time we want any form of pay rise at all. Now they've listened to us slightly this time, but nowhere near enough and it's not going to keep people in the profession. They've really, helpfully assisted with some criminal peopleages, but we can't keep people in the job. They do two to three years and they just can't bear it and they go. And one of the reasons for this is another thing that's coming back, which is warned list cases.

29:39So we're going to have fixed cases to deal with things like rape. And lots of other cases will go in a warned list for a fortnight. And that means at any time in that couple of weeks the case could come in a list. Not easy to repair cases with that in the back of your mind. And of course, barristers don't get paid anything until the case is finished. So if they do rape cases, for example, you could get a rape case tomorrow and be paid for it in two years time. Nobody else works like that. No, it's bizarre. But having said that, we're not the only people who matter here. The people who really matter here, of course, are those people waiting to have their trial victims of rape and serious sexual offences. People accused of sexual offences. Delay is bad for everyone. Really hard to remember, isn't it? Something that happened four years ago in detail. That's the real worry, isn't it? That not only that women have so little faith in the system that they're not coming

30:39forward, that the investigations are taking too long, that the cases are taking too long to get when they do get to court. Actually, is the evidence the best evidence because like you said, memories fade, people abound to kind of like forget what they were doing or where they were. Like you said, it's not good for anyone. It really isn't. And if you've been subjected to significant trauma, a coping mechanism is to shut it off, not think about it at all. Just put it to the back of your mind if you can. You're going to have nightmares, you're going to have flashbacks. But people don't want to think about it again and again and again. And each time there's a court hearing, it's dragged right up. The trauma goes right back up. Then it's adjourned again. And it works the same for people accused. They also block it off. And then it comes back up and goes back down again. What we really, really need is for everyone to understand that society only really works if we're safe. And to be safe, we need policing and a criminal justice system which involves

31:46trials, sentences, prison and probation. That costs. And we've got to pay to make this better because somewhere around 10% of people who have said that they were raped with drew last year because they just couldn't face any longer delays. Lots and lots of people walk away. People accused of these matters can't walk away. They have to keep going until the trial takes place, but it's just not nice to see. I've been doing this job 36 years now. And it should be getting better and better. With all of the technology we have, the skill set, with investment, it should be like every other profession, getting better and better. It doesn't feel like that. It feels

32:49that we are really struggling just to keep going. What we'd like people to do actually, and this is going to sound bizarre, but it's true. It's come and watch a trial. Come and see a trial from beginning to end. If you're going to make decisions about how the criminal justice system should work, do come and watch it. Get the people who are producing all of these policies to come and watch it. And don't come on a little visit and talk to a few people and then leave an hour later. Come on a Monday morning. Watch the trial process. See the entirety of it. Because it's only really that way, as you will know Liz, that you get to know the system. Journalists, for example, they truly see, don't they? What the criminal justice system is like because they're there day in, day out. Oh, the good, the bad, I'm the ugly. You see it all. I think that is a good challenge, Mary,

33:54to get Alex Norris to come and sit in one of your trials that would be a brilliant eye open of him. And you know what? I'll happily pay the train fare and buy the lunch. Well, I think that's a great way to end this. Thanks so much for coming on, Mary. Lovely to see you again, Liz. So that's it for today. I'll be back on Saturday with another episode of Crimes that changed the law. This week we're focusing on the law of double-jepaday. I've done a great interview with Anne Ming and her grandson, Kevin. Anne's daughter and Kevin's mum, Julie Hogg, was murdered back in 1989. A jury twice failed to reach a verdict on whether Julie's killer, a man called Billy Dunlop, was to blame. But when he started bragging about getting away with the perfect murder and confess to another girlfriend that he'd murdered Julie, Anne set about changing the law to bring him to justice. It's a remarkable story, really, of one mother's love, and tenacity, and her refusal to give up. I've also spoken to former Daily Mail crime editors, Stephen Wright, about why the changes to double-jepaday legislation

34:56were so crucial in bringing the killers of Stephen Lawrence to justice. So that's on Saturday. Please tune in. Remember, you'll need to subscribe to the crime desk to listen. The link should be in the show notes. You can follow us on TikTok at Daily Mail Crime or you can email us the trial at DailyMail.com. Leave a comment on our podcast or Spotify or even send us a voice note on WhatsApp on 07796657512. Start your message with the word trial. See you then. Hey, I'm Paige Desorba from Giggly Squad and I want to talk to you about Armand Hammer hard ball

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