Ray McGovern: Stiff & Stern : Putin's 7 Minutes of Mixed Signals to US Envoys- Israel's Losses MOUNT

0:00Hi everybody today is Sunday September 6th, 2026 and our dear friend Ray McGovern is here with us. Welcome back Ray. Thank you, Ray. Ray, let me see what has happened yesterday between Vladimir Putin and the US on-boys still wetcoff and jerk Kushner. We don't know that much about what has happened because it was more than two hours of meeting. They talk a lot based on the reports. But that's seven minutes that came out. You see some sort of stern stiff manner of boom with mixed signals. And what is your understanding of what has happened yesterday and then coming to today as you know, still wetcoff and jerk Kushner on our in KF talking with Zelensky. And his administration, we've left from Reuters that the national security advisors from Britain, France and Germany arrived in KF as well.

1:05Go ahead, you're thick and let us know what is your understanding and what's going on with this new move on the part of the more trouble. Thank you Neema. I think we really have to start with recent history. And when I say recent, I mean three days ago. Okay, Putin, major speech, Q&A out there and a lot of us stuck at that meeting out there. Okay, what does he say? Well, the right approach here is for Russia and Ukraine meeting first to reach an agreement between themselves. Bessent is not really part of this. First and foremost, this issue has to be dealt with by the countries involved in the conflict, which are Russia and Ukraine. September three.

2:06Huh? September four. Oh, Trump wants to send with cough and Kushner to Moscow to talk. Oh, wait a second. So it's really hard to figure out, but I think the conclusion is inevitably Trump is in real trouble. He wants some help in Ukraine. And he detried with Ratcliffe that really bombed. We could talk about that later. But here he sent us to super numeralries, his two negotiators, so to speak. And force them on Putin. Now why does poor Putin accept them? Very simple, Neema. You've heard me say this hundred times. He's afraid that Trump will go with half cocked. Okay. And so he not only flattest Trump in the introductory remarks. He even sort of in a kind of indirect way, massacres the Ukrainians by saying, look, you know, we understand that you're going to

3:10to a key of the Ukraine after this. Well, really anyway, we trust you social vote, say, those guys. And please says, Putin interrupting the translator. Please look, we agreed to a two day ceasefire. Okay. The Ukrainians made this proposal for three days. We never accepted it. So let's get that straight, Mr. Whitcough. Don't talk about three days. It's two days. So you know what he's really saying is, you better get out of the dodge. You better get out of the key of by by sundown tomorrow or else what happens. We can't guarantee it. Okay. Two days what we agreed to meanwhile what happened overnight again, multiple rocket and all kinds of launches drones and everything against all of you, creating including key of so you know, that was overnight. Now there's a pause.

4:22And they're going to let them get there. But now the interesting thing here is that those national security advisors. I've just learned this happened to be there to what to to well, I think that what Whitcough and Kushner have to tell Zelensky and these other national security advisors is look. Trump is sick and tired of all this. He needs some kind of a victory somewhere. We're not going to get it in Iran. The benefit is in deep, deep trouble in Iran. The Ukrainians are shooting at the battleships that were aircraft carriers and other ship. So look, you know, these are reasonable terms, Anchorage. You know, we've been supplying you with all kinds of intelligence and all the support. You know, if you don't show more flexibility, forget about it. You know, forget about it.

5:23Ratcliffe, maybe he tried to tell you about that, but Whitcough and you're because with a personal emissaries of Trump. And so please remember, get out of dodge quickly tonight, like or tomorrow night was yesterday. And try to listen to a reason here because Whitcough and Kushner have my blessings says Poochine. Why? Because Trump sent them. I mean, this is kind of a fixture. He's got a praise Trump. Then they've got to say, well, I have trust. Trust my god. There's no trust. But he professes to have trust in these clowns. So he says, yeah, we have trust. But it was in a backhand away of saying, we don't have trust in these guys. So it was a very, the Irish would say door. It was very dour sour.

6:23If you look at, you know, you can criminal logical look at this here. But if you look at Poochine, he's not happy. You're not happy at all. Never smile. And he doesn't even look at these guys. He's looking at his notes. What you almost never does. Okay. So he's prepared to sort of put them in their place at the outset in a very nice way while praising the great leader, a Donald Trump, but the laying it down. Look, we need these conversations says Poochine at the outset. I'm not going to be easy. They're difficult. They're complicated. But we trust you. We don't trust. If you go into Kiev now as you've announced, well, good luck. In reality, it's always a good idea. I suppose anyway, anyway, to talk to everybody, even these, these guys in Kiev. So just remember, get out of it. It's more or not. You'll be okay. We guarantee that. But don't linger around shopping in and in Kiev and the stores that are left here.

7:33Ray, going to Kiev. And this is the sentiment in Russia. You understand going to Kiev and you see the in some sort of tensions growing between Germany and Russia. And Germany is talking about Russia. I'll, you know, try to hit some targets. I don't know what are those targets using a drone to hit lipstick in Germany. And it's getting so serious. The chance of Germany talk about this over and I think multiple times he talk about what has happened during the attack or how dangerous that the attack was. They basically no target was hit and no explosion. Nothing has happened with that attack. But he said there were explosives on that drone that didn't, you know, do anything. Somehow it was by chance they didn't explode. But coming back to the difficulties that Steve Whitkov and George Christian. Let me just let me just check there because I know something about Germany and, you know, the excuse used by mounts to blow this up into a Russian attack of some kind with no evidence it used.

8:48So it reminds me of August 31st 1939 when the Germans said, oh, we were attacked by these Polish border troops. And so we have to start. It's crazy. Now, don't believe just me. The head of Bulgaria. I just made a note here. The head of Bulgaria. The, what's his name? Ruman Radiev. He says, look, we don't see any evidence that Russia did this. Why blame Russia? He says, you know, reckless. He talked about reckless. This is the head of Bulgaria saying, when you send long range arms at into Russia, that is reckless. So all I'm saying is here is number one. There is no unity in in a national countries on this issue.

9:54Even nominal national countries like Bulgaria and more important, the Germans are voting today. My God, what's going to happen? Well, will it work? Will this ploy that mounts it over the Russians are coming? The Russians are coming? Where's the spend more money? And so the Russians are coming beside. They they tried to blow up some planes in the life. I don't think so. I think that the the lunch elections, the provincial elections in Saxony, unhouth is going to come out with the AFD, the alternative of the Dutch land. If not as a majority party, but clearly the plurality party, in other words, they'll hear hell of, they'll get twice as many votes as a CDU there. And what will that mean? Well, that will mean the Germans will have to think this through. And whether they buy propaganda like belts, I mean, it could have been the Russians as leaving a bomb between two Ukrainian planes on their part.

11:01I suppose it could be, but you know, I mean, that will lead to use some basic evidence. It's a it's a canard. And let's hope that most Germans are able to see through that. Nothing is more important today than those German elections and I'm on tento hooks to see how they come out. Yeah, then coming ready to keff and what's going on today, where do you find the Zelenski administration? What do they want any opinion from still wet government, church, he said Zelenski today said he wants peace, he wants to put an end to the war, but they have to consider all the terms, all the concerns on the part of Ukrainians. What are those concerns? What would be the major issue for Ukraine? Yeah, well, bear in mind, this is a US initiative. The Russians have reluctantly accepted the fact that all right. Anyway, if you have to go to Ukraine, I'll go and we will show well. But this is speculation now.

12:14It may be informed speculation. I hope so. Trump has shown that he has no real leverage with the Europeans and therefore with the people in keff because the Europeans will keep supporting them. Well, almost no leverage. What is Trump still supplying to these people? Incredibly important sensitive intelligence that allows them to strike deep into Russia. My guess is that with keff and kosher have this authorization from Trump to say, look, if you guys don't play ball, like I've been trying to tell you for the last year after we agreed with the Russians at Anchorage that you would start talking real talk. If you don't recognize that you're losing heavily on the battlefield and that you have no access to the sea and you have no air defense, my god, this is really strange and we're not going to supply.

13:22I kind of give any more intelligence. So you'll in the Europeans go play the game if you like. We're going to play it with one hand behind your back because that's over unless you cooperate and allow us to show some semblance of progress in one area in a war that we're largely responsible for and divert attention from something we really can't handle. In which our major generals and admirals have said they don't concur with. Okay, so it's partly a tight divert attention from that, but it's also because Putin is fed up. I could see that in his demeanor. He didn't look these guys in the eyes as you always did before. He was reading from notes and some of these really important things. Okay, that's not like Putin. So Putin himself is under some pressure here. I confess to being surprised that however left hand left handed compliment he was giving to the American negotiators here saying, well, we trust you.

14:33So to vote you we don't trust these Ukrainians. Still he's talking about trust. Still he's welcoming them cordially. Still, Ushakov is saying that these were constructive. Okay. Well, what does Putin have to be aware of? Oh, he's got to look at his back and contend with mid-Jaziv for all these hardliners, including the foreign ministry for God's sake. Once again, Putin went ahead and then he said, well, he said, love it off. You can stay in the sidelines. We're going to do this with Ushakov. Okay. And with the meat here. Can you imagine how the foreign ministry feels about that? They have been saying regularly for several months. You can't look or share with these guys. We have to do it one on one. So what I'm saying here is that Putin himself is under some pressure. Not to be too cordially the guy just to do the bare minimum, the daily girl. Okay, three times, spray Trump. That's good. And then to kind of knock down the Ukrainian by saying, yes, we trust you guys, but we don't trust these other folks.

15:46That's how I read this. And I hope I'm right because follow it's been long since possible for the president to tell the CIA don't give anymore targeting or other information guidance information to those, those vessels or those drones. Whether he would do that is another question. Whether they would obey is yet another question. So I mean, Trump is not fully in control himself much less in control of Zelensky and still less in control of the Russians. It was reported a raid at the third round of talks are happening as we talk the first two round between the Zelensky administration and see with government, George Kushner and the third round is all together with Europeans. Europeans are part of what's going on. I don't see anything good coming out of Europeans participating in the talks. But we're in that aside, go ahead.

16:50Let me just suggest one possible speculation here. If as I suspect, we're often Kushner authorized to be pretty tough, pretty hard sell with Zelensky, it might well be that they took the initiative and said, look, we know that your European friends are the flies in the ointment here. We'd like them to listen to us firsthand. So it would be good if you had these guys here, just that we're going to talk cold turkey to you, so to speak. And yeah, bring them on. Now Zelensky would also have some incentive to have them there. And we'll see. We'll see if Trump has really authorized these people to be tough with the Ukrainians. And then again, it's all very, all very subjunctive, isn't it? If they're tough with the Ukrainians, will the Ukrainians listen?

17:56Will the European listen? Will they didn't listen a year ago after Anchorage when Trump put his marker down and said, you're going to listen? Why would they listen now? Well, if Trump says no more intelligence, no more intelligence for you to target Russia, they might listen. They might not. So let's game itself is probably not able politically to give up on his desire to rush get the Russians out of the Donbass. So it's kind of a tough game here, but I think you are precisely right, Neema. I listened to you earlier this morning. And you're talking about Ukraine and Iran being connected. And the connection is of course Trump was in dire straits now, really dire straits given how the Iranians are doing precisely what they said they would do. If they're attacked, they'll respond with heavier attacks, firing at US Navy ships now. My God, what does that mean against the backdrop of leaks by in the Washington Post by the four highest admirals in general saying, you know, we non-concur.

19:21Now the bad thing in my view is that it's a well, you know, we're soldiers. So we'll obey orders, but we non-concur. And we're going to tell the Washington Post. So this is crazy times here, but I think you're right in connecting it to Trump needs some kind of progress. So he's not going to get it with economic sanctions against Iran. The Treasury Secretary is out of his gourd. Okay, he just hadn't learned anything about sanctions or how stiff it is. How much Russia in China will come and help Iran now. The Mecca, you know, the trio that I didn't think really mattered much, Pakistan, which nuclear state Turkey. And that's how do you really my God. Well, now they're talking to Egypt and now, what are talking to Iran? It's my God. So that. So the center of gravity is moving eastward.

20:26And that's a pin shown at the Shanghai cooperation organization, which you mentioned in your earlier remarks. And also in valley of stock when when Poutine is talking to other foreign people. And you know, I would just before I forget it would mention that just now that is about an hour ago. I was told that Poutine said, you know, I started to be open to a meeting with Donald Trump. And she's in ping in November. What's it called it's called the. Asia Pacific Economic Operations Summit in China in Shenzhen. Oh, that's November 18 19th. So was this mean this just means that a day after this sour attempt with the deal with the China. I'm going to I'm going to hope that we can meet in China.

21:26She himself is coming in three weeks to the United States. I think they're just trying to tamp things down and be able to give Trump. trying to she himself is coming in three weeks to the United States. I think they're just trying to tamp things down and be able to give Trump enough evidence that he's able to meet with all these guys and he's going to fix things. There's one other thing I was going to mention here. Well, she's coming here. This is mostly appearances, it seems to me where it needs to happen in terms of Trump's needs with the elections coming in exactly well almost exactly two months. There's some kind of respite and unless he gives a little

22:31on the straighter for mousse and the MOU and all that kind of stuff, it looks like he's not able to do. He needs to show that he can make things happen and and and Kiev and maybe just maybe he'll he'll instruct his with conference commissioner to read the riot act to the Ukrainians and use the only leverage they have left and then it's look you're I continue this war you're on your own close down the CIA people who are giving you all the sophisticated targeting and other information that could be I don't know. Ray we had the former head of MI6 he mentioned the he mentioned that the war in Ukraine cannot you know or negotiations to end the war there is no possibility to do them this year it's going to go to the next year 2027. I don't

23:34know what is the main reason that he's putting out this way and where do you find the British government in Ukraine do you think they're powerful as they were since the war started because they're the main supporter of the Zalensk administration I would say the British government the British intelligence they were so much involved in Ukraine and even during if you remember there was an article in New York Times mentioning how the Biden administration whenever they want to communicate with Zalensky in Ukraine they use the British to talk with them it shows how deep they're involved in Ukraine what is the sign in your opinion when it comes to the new British government the new prime minister of the United Kingdom is that going to change your work and see the same attitude as they're talking about 2027 and maybe beyond 2027 continuation of the war well I dismiss anything that

24:38MI6 leaders present or past say we have an expression in the United States meet the new boss same as the old boss it looks to me having not watched that closely that there's no real change in British policy unless and until Trump says look this is a lost cause we get now used to have a lot of influence with Zalensky we'll continue to use you but we're not going to encourage Zalensky to be as adamant as he was before Trump could do that we have enough influence with the British to stop and I say that advisedly if the people instructed to do that carry out those orders again you have the deep state involved here let's say Trump says hey tell those Brits and I can off there and Kiev will a CIA station chief do that I don't know and that's one hell of a situation okay

25:46any other the bridge should realize that they have really very few chords they're going to get down with Zalensky and when they decide to abandon ship and leave the ship like rats well I don't know they sort of hang on as long as they think there's any chance that the US will not completely pull the plug if my speculation is correct if Trump says that look we're going to pull the plug we're going to pull the intelligence support and the Brits would have to face up to the situation let me ask you this Neema you know that these national security advisors from NATO countries were and Kiev was the British one there among them yeah the British German and French yeah good all right well if the the three most good tears right well that's good that's good nothing bad could come with that because if Whitcoff sticks to his brief and you know he's pretty much assured

26:51poaching that he would then something good could come out of this again if the people that ostensibly work for Donald J Trump obey his orders to cease and to assist and get out of Ukraine for me here is what talking a little bit about the dark side of what's going on in Ukraine and this relation between basically between Russia and Germany here is what Sergei Lavrov said he described Germany's accusation against Moscow over the life sick and what has happened in life sick with the drone as essentially the beginning of a real war comparing bearing comparing bearings diplomatic measures to the closure of missions before the World War II and when Lavrov pointed out that that chancellor merts ambition to take Germany's Germany and

27:58and as as the leader of Europe in military rebuilding the military militarizing Germany and making the same problems within Europe as it was before you all remember you know it's talking about you know the rise of Nazism in Europe do you think that the things are getting that dark to go that far between Russia and Germany and how dangerous is the new sentiment in Germany with these drones and with this sort of rhetoric from the leadership in Germany well Nima my big advantage is that it's been around so long okay so let me put this into context okay when I was a young analyst I was watching Soviet foreign policy and reading all the propaganda and after three months I went to my boss and I said hey boss and and we had these these rooms with big

28:59fluorescent lights you know and with so I said boss you know I think I think it's not just propaganda I think the Russians are really afraid of the Germans they put his feet up on the desk and it looks to me and he says Ray you're telling me lights are on in other words hello took you three months to realize that okay so that's the beginning and then of course when I heard the James Baker was asking out of a trough in shiver Nazism look we just like reunified in Germany I mean I imagine their reaction was the same as my reaction at the time you know what it was remember the whole idea of data being set up was to keep the brushes out and the US in and the Germans down not a bad idea okay so there's the context here's here's

30:05got a bit short for chiver Nazism just after a war during which Russia or the Soviet Union properly stated lost 27 million citizens okay and he's been asked to make this big deal and what is it so they say that's a big that's a big quid what's the quo and James Baker says oh well how about he says smart Texas lawyer right is this how about how it be if we promised cross a heart hope to die that we won't expand eight or one inch to the east well foolishly they didn't get that written down now just there the about 10 years ago I had a chance to speak to to got a bit rough she flew tenet his name is Kuvaldin he teaches at Musco University I said Mr. Kuvaldin why wasn't that written down and he gave me the usual answers then he said but Mr. McGovern really it was he looked right in the eye and I said Mr. McGovern we trusted you

31:13okay well that trust factor has gone down and down and down and so that's you know what gives me pause to say here's Putin fully recognizing that the foreign ministry love rough yep kuf and all those other people and that represented at the stable he's talking about trust again after love rough yep kuf and all the there isn't any trust anymore and even Putin just two days before says look forget about it we'll just we'll duck this out with the Ukrainians Russia and Ukraine we don't need any help from third party so just say again I think that's be speaks a real sense of urgency on on on Trump's port I think it's something done and right after John Wright Cliff's visit didn't didn't do anything he decides to send these guys even though

32:15they before he decided to send them Putin has already said this is not the way to do it's just two one on one so I think he is rather an urgent need of subkind of victory uh did I answer your question about Germany because I did okay yeah Ray coming back you mentioned something else that is important in my opinion that is what Donald Trump is doing domestically and how he sees the two conflicts in the West Asia and in Ukraine but where do you see Israel today Ray Israel is so much obsessed with the southern part of Lebanon they're attacking Gaza West Bank Lebanon Syria and with the new mecca they call it mecca defense alliance that's pretty alliance I don't think that it it's an alliance it's something bigger than that it's something defensive instead of been offensive but going you know accepting the official name what does that mean for Israel and what

33:23does that mean for the United States and the future of the presence of the United States in the region yeah you can consider Israel and the United States as as more an entity and we're talking about this uh it doesn't bode well for them uh what is it turkey uh Saudi Arabia and Pakistan a nuclear power nation as I said before it's talking to Egypt now and even to Iran my god is that mecca thing is taking on some substance if not an alliance at least so entity to contend with uh Israel must be terribly worried about this and the more so since Iran to its credit in my view uh keep emphasizing that this is not just about Iran it's about the you know the arc of resistance resistance to Israeli occupation please remember 1967 is when Israelis out to the preemptive war

34:30unprovoked full scale okay and took the occupied territories later that year 1967 November UN Security Council voted unanimously U.S everybody else uh that is real mostly the occupied territory so this is a long range thing it's been a long time and now finally not the fat and happy Arab Gulfis but the other Muslims the shea in Iran is saying look enough and we have enough power here not only to defend ourselves but to make this resistance real and so while the memorandum of this standing was pretty harsh uh and now they've added my god uh not only Lebanon which was number one but they're talking about uh uh uh the Houthis and of course

35:33Gaza as well as the Palestine so that's a real that's a reality that Westerners find hard to understand because you know in a reality politique point of view I would have said well you know once they run uh meets this challenge they're gonna make extra demands for somebody else well that's not the way look at it it's not somebody else it's all the Islamic countries there who before were too timid to face it to the United States now because they were attacked Iran had no alternative and they are teaching lessons to these other Muslim states and uh whether the the Gulfis you know including Saudi Arabia well actually not only the Gulfis but their Jordanians are taking it on the chin as well as Kuwait the last couple of attacks have been very very strong against our gets US air bases in Jordan my god does he run have have missiles

36:39they go that far? duh of course they do we saw did they did months ago and you know so and Kuwait of course and the one reason that the chief of naval operations in our country is said I non concur is because we lost our base we lost the command base for the fifth fleet by lane used to be really nice we used to do all kinds of stuff there even resupply our truck boat hit it anymore so I man concur please mr. president don't order me to do stuff also loot you know be the order but I I forecast doom and uh if that's the way they're talking to Trump it's high time they did in this Air Force at four star general uh recent cane well I'll just remind people that

37:42when uh colon powe was chief of the joy chiefs of staff he told my friendler Wilkeson my god my god don't ever let an Air Force 4 star uh succeed me in that post as chief of the joy chiefs they think they can do anything like bombing and they can't that's on the record Larry has told me that and told others so yeah so you have an Air Force guy thinking of bombing or missiles or drones or whatever will do the trick I mean how stupid is that or didn't we we I mean it seems to me like we learned that in Vietnam forgot sick and that was a long time ago but I was around for that as well Ray the foreign minister of Israel he said that the Kurds are a minority in four countries and what for and unfortunately unfortunately have not yet achieved political independence we believe in

38:46strengthening relations between the different you know minorities of the Middle East and specifically in relations between Jews and the Kurds this is I think the the thing is getting so much stupid and so much unbelievable that they want to fight each and everybody because the Kurds are talking about Syria you know Turkey Iran Iraq all together they want to go against all of these countries together they're basically unifying the whole West Asia against them well you know this this fellow is is waving a big red flag you know a red flag against Turkey for God's sake uh the Kurds poems of history are still considered a real threat by the Turks for good reason the whole bunch of them and a lot of them are armed so you know if if you want to add insult to injury what you do is

39:48you wave a red flag and say okay Turkey we're in favor of getting the turns all good the Kurds all together uh it as you say it's crazy but you know what that's that's what really brings me up short crazy I think that's a young who is criminally crazy I think he's got so much at stake these upcoming elections in Israel and the support that he needs to prevail and stay at a jail again I'll just say that if you ask me whether in extremists and dire straits he would hesitate using some of his nuclear weapons I think the chances are better than even would he ask the United States first probably not that these really prefer to ask for forgiveness later rather than permission before and so that's where I dearly hope that uh well that the Russians for example are

40:55advising Iran not to say they have a lot of influence there but saying look look what we did in Ukraine um we husbanded our energy and our supplies and now all but one we didn't provoke anybody we didn't hit any NATO bases or anything like that we're not going to please go though and do likewise okay don't think any aircraft carriers I got sick now what little influence the Russians or others may have on Iran is demonstrated by the fact that they've been firing at aircraft that aircraft carrier and escort the vessel so my god the thing is very volatile uh let's hope that let's hope that Whitkopf and Kushner can actually succeed in giving Trump some sort of a sensible win to tamp down the thing in your crane so that he has something that he can divert attention

42:01with from what's going on in Iran because even the US uh you know I don't think our military would obey orders to use a nuclear weapon in in that part of the world or any part of the world really but who's who's to say these people can non concur and then follow orders anyway Ray Donald Trump started you know his you know the second term started with this sort of motor with this sort of understanding on the part of the Trump administration or Donald Trump himself said that we have to separate Russia from China I think the problem right now is growing we have to separate Russia from Iran and really Iran from Russia or Russia from where does that go in your opinion is there any sort of understanding that they want to do that or what are the

43:05capabilities there to achieve that uh my first portfolio as an analyst of Soviet foreign policy was synosobiet relations in the 60s they were firing across this riverine border of Yusuri and and the Amoeu rivers okay China was claiming 1.5 square 1.5 thousand square kilometers of Siberia taken by the Russians under unequal treaties from the 17th century were those treaties unequal your damn sure you were the Russians had power then a little bit of power just enough so the Chinese didn't so that's what's happening in 1968 they're firing across the border okay just yesterday a prominent Russian spokesman said look you know the the 4,000 kilometer long

44:10border we have with China is a model for peaceful cooperation and joint development and you know it's just a model for the whole world to emulate well it's a big change isn't it now who's who should take credit for that the stupidity of US policy makers and driving them together so as I've said before um under Nixon and Kessager uh China and Russia were competing against each other uh for progress in relations with the United States they didn't want the other party to develop closer relations they so there was a triangle let's see if I could do this uh there's a sort of like a triangle now uh now that triangle is sort of so isosceles that the US is here on the bottom as the short stick right in other words on this arm you have a very powerful Russia

45:11on that arm you have a very powerful China and the US is uh like the the short stick of the isosceles triangle and the more so since Russia and China are now together under a virtual mutual defense treaty China was even this is important most people don't realize it China was even able to wave its core foreign policy dictum Westphalia Westphalia that's when countries in Europe that have been fighting each other for decades and decades agreed look this gotta be a better way you know and so non interference and other peoples affairs okay now what happened when Puccine decided he had no other choice and that I say advisedly he had no other choice others and go into Ukraine when we had a NATO armed and and trained army of substantial proportions right on the

46:16border of of Donbass okay he asked she on the 4th of February 2022 uh yeah I think I gonna have to go into Ukraine I know you feel strongly about Westphalia but I just want to let you know we're gonna do that and it shows that it's in in my view the way she acted or responded is shown by this subsequent events she said well can you wait please until after the winter Olympics are over here in Beijing they were over in the 20th of February as you'll remember on the 24th the Russians went into Ukraine not full scale for God's sake not unprovoked and they were willing to stop just six weeks later with the accord worked out by the Ukrainians and the Russians in Istanbul the so-called Istanbul Agreement

47:19just when I look at what has happened so far Ray just imagine how has everything changed since then you know look at Europe today with the case of energy look at the West Asia today you look at China Ray it's I think you remember when the war in Ukraine started China was trying to say that they have the middle ground you know they stay you know between the United States between the West and Russia in the initial days then as time went by China supported more and more at least vocally they said that we are and then finally you see China fully supported in Russia with the case of sanctions because these sanctions were supposed to destroy the Russian economy the same thing the same thing the same scenario is happening you know what has happened during the Biden administration the same scenario is happening under the Trump administration today with the case of Iran and there is nothing there to be there is no learning curve in Washington

48:25under at least the two administrations the Biden and the Trump administration where do you see China Ray and what is your understanding of what's going on today well first off Nima it was even more stark than you portrayed it in my view okay when the war started the Chinese didn't say anything and then in a couple of days they started saying you know each country has to defend its core interests core interests is the paramount value here not a word about West failure okay not a word and so as the months went by okay now we're back to West failure but they condoned what Putin that it couldn't be bigger I think that we legitimate argument that if he said that's crazy we will oppose that don't go into Ukraine Putin would not have done that I mean he did big brother and he got it okay so that's one of the important things the other business is what

49:30I tend to go on I was comparing the two you know there is no learning curve in Washington the sanctions the same policy under the Biden administration the same policy under the Trump administration and the response we're getting right now from China for example in the G20 they were talking about one of the paragraph was about in G20 it was the safe and free passage through the trade of foremost China rejected that paragraph and with the SEO summit you see all these countries coming together and condemning the same includes including India yeah including India yeah so you know if you wanted to get the rest of the world against you I mean this is a mess just okay they have really done a great job of this um let's go to say something else yeah the Chinese you know we're worried about not having enough missiles to what to defend against China

50:33my view of Chinese policy and this goes back all those years the 60s except with respect to Russia was they really hated and we say really firing live and live for God say can't wait this is their foreign policy can't we just get along I mean we're getting real powerful but we don't want to we don't want to take over anything Taiwan is inevitably going to become part of us you agree to that 52 years ago for God's sake so can we have a win win now we're a real powerful nation and you have done things like bringing 600 million people out of poverty over the last decade or so and you have very sophisticated weaponry now some of which I believe they're given to Iran well you can is she can can go to to a Washington in three weeks let's say hey let's try this huh

51:40we don't want any trade war or anything like that you know sanctuaries are going to happen the minute you said or your treasury secretary said secondary sanctions like it won't believe the biggest section in the world ever seen you know we said forget about it we're not going to buy about this section and you know we have to something you say about all this so so if Trump is in a listening mode and he listens to he in three weeks and then his Trump goes to China in November 18th and 19th and talks to she and Putin well this will be great for Trump's image okay but you have to give something and there's an off there's an outside chance that he will be able to say okay we'll do a more sensible policy here and this is important I'll try to sell that to the people who have great influence on made it they're called a deep state I can't really

52:42explain it to you it's really complicated but it works and I have real restrictions on what I can order people to do but I'll give it a try that's the best scenario the worst is almost too bad too too much to speak out but it's nuclear nuclear nuclear and we had a look Yanaf the other look Yanaf one of Putin's most trusted academic advisors I wrote an article just three days ago saying you know this concept of deterrence has pretty much evaporated people are no longer afraid of talking about the use of nuclear weapons thinking about small nuclear weapons at my god you know this is a real sea change in the way strategic arms are looked at we have no arms control negotiations now this is a very dangerous situation he's right of course and so that

53:47it's to the volatility of this and it explains largely why why Putin reads from his notes yesterday and make sure he thanks Trump for this and their praises Trump for that and when Woodcoff says oh and I want to thank you mr. President mr. President Puccine for for getting that that that prisoner out of Russia we thank you very much I've talked to the family and their and Puccine says well you should talk to you should thank Trump for that because he was the guy who took the initiative well all these are gratuitous things to keep Trump kind of well down to the point where he won't try anything stupid so we'll see after today I think uh um Woodcoff and Kusher are about to implane to get out of the eye should get out of Kiev before the two-day ceasefire that the Russians

54:51agreed to expires I hope we'll see more in terms of a readout from Washington don't hold your breath but I think that the the general purpose of this was a good one on the part of Trump it was very hurried and kind of resented on the part of Puccine who has his own hawks to deal with like oh maybe the foreign minister love it off so it's could be more complicated but isn't it exciting and and I think earlier if viewers haven't seen your little monologue earlier this morning from the Uranian side I think you got it I got it exactly right to include your analysis of what's going on in the United States which I'm not so good at you're the best Ray thank you thank you so much for being with us today great pleasure as always Ray you're most welcome Nima

55:52keep up the good work thank you