Talking Dateline: The Family Plot

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1:01Hi there I'm Keith Morrison and this is Talking Deadline and we are joined today by the illustrious Josh Macowitz. Actually the real Josh Macowitz is as opposed to some fakery Josh Macowitz which I've been seeing on social media lately. I'm Josh Macowitz. I'm Josh Macowitz. Will the real Josh Macowitz please stand up? I think an argument can be made that that's the real Josh Macowitz. Wait a minute. You're the fakie guy. That's right the other one was the real one. He looked like a nice fella. So I'm here in Boston to meet in person somebody that I really only know from the online one and here's the thing. His name is Joshua Macowitz. Alert viewers in Dateline may have noticed that's also my name. So it's almost time that we meet. Josh Macowitz. Josh Macowitz. Josh Macowitz. Good to meet you. Nice to meet you. You're taller than I expected.

2:02You're taller than almost any other Macowitz that I know. Now anybody who has not seen this reunion of the two Josh Macowitz's on social media might be able to find it. Anyway we have Josh Macowitz to talk about the episode our season premiere of our 35th season. It was called the Family Plot. The story begins with a man shot to death in the foyer I guess or the hall of his in law's house, mother in law's house. And then there's a long and twisted investigation to see what happened. And I will say that from very early on in this episode, nobody else may have noticed it, but I sure did. That young detective A was very impressive. And B looked so much like a guy you could see on Scandinavian murder mystery stories on television named Olafur Olipson. Did you ever see him? Oh he's the star of a trapped which is exactly that. I Iceland is said in Iceland so good.

3:04But the the dog in this in this sincerity were also shared traits and I was you know I was an admirer of that. You did a great job. Well anyway before we get to the story, why don't you listen to the episode if you haven't yet. You can find it right below this one or stream it on peacock and then come right back here. And when you come back we'll have more from Tracy Grist's police interview. The night Matt was killed and later we'll answer some of your questions from social media. All right let's talk deadline. This was a good one. This was just I love the investigative part of it. It really followed this investigative trail. What was your impression of the thing when you when you began to hear the details? Well I mean it is mind boggling when you sort of look at this. I mean they lured this guy from California to Utah. You know mom sort of involved as many members of her family as she could in doing that. And they all kind of I guess did what she said.

4:06I guess they were kind of used to that over the years. And then they tell this phony story that Matt the victim in this you know came in aggressively and pushed Kevin up against the wall and he had a knife and like instantly you know there's things wrong with that scenario. I mean it fell apart from the beginning. I mean Kevin the brother who fired the shot the shots he was Matt was shot seven times. He was taken into custody that night despite his argument that it was a self-defense shooting. The cops didn't believe that for a second and Kevin I think was never out of custody again. Like he went in instantly and that was the end of that. And then the only question was who else was involved. The hapless Kevin I think you could say. And by the way if they thought they were in here away with it that plot started crumbling from the beginning. You know he's shot through the wrist but he's still holding the knife. He's holding the knife in his wrong hand. He took off his shoes before he came into the living room right something that home invaders

5:11generally don't do. Well they clearly were a bunch of amateur murderers. No question about that. I think the plan was to just make it sound like Matt was an angry you know vengeful guy. Yeah. And he you know came over barged in you know they'd taken the screen door off to make it easier for him to come in the house. The barge. And she says she says to him in the calls like you're coming in right you're going to come in I need your help with the kids you know getting all their stuff and the kid stuff was not packed which would it would have been if Matt's going to collect them and they're going to go home. Of course everything about this fell apart. You know they're blankets on the furniture to keep blood spatter off it. That's not something you generally do. Kevin who fires the shot has a holster in his pocket. I don't think you walk around your house at night with your gun in a holster on your hip unless you're planning to or expecting to use it that definitely stood out for police. No question. That's the old checkoff

6:15notion that if a gun makes an appearance it's going to be used in the next act. That's what is indeed in this story. Yeah. But the I'm interested in the architecture of this family. My impression was and I'd like to know your impression is it all went back as you said to the mother. What was your sense of her character, her personality, her maybe her psychiatric quirks? She had gotten away with a lot of crimes smaller than this as far as we know but she'd gotten away with a lot of crimes like all her life. Some of them she'd just have a vibe of saying she needed to feed her family so that's why she shoplifted it but she also stole money from her friends from people she knew regularly. And so I said we can no longer be friends. Tracy denied stealing from Terry but seemed fine with that long friendship being over as long as she didn't get into trouble. She has a way of talking her way out of things that blows my mind. So what I think she thought is that

7:20I am smarter than law enforcement kind of in the aggregate. And if we tell a plausible story we'll get away with this too. Now the issue of why Matt Rastelli needed to be executed is it can't be explained. The only issue is to save her daughter Kate some headache and heartache and financial responsibility in a divorce but like like this was not a terrible guy. I mean mom didn't like it but like there was nothing about Matt Rastelli that should have made anybody think let's kill him. So the mother was a not only a thief and a law breaker but she was it seems to me or at least from what I could discern remarkably manipulative. She had a swingali-like power over her kids. She reminds me of Sante Kimes about who we did in other stories. And in the similarity also

8:24includes the fact that the children are still besotted with their mother. The sons in Kimes case still talk about how much they love her even though she did all these dreadful things and made them do dreadful things. And I was fascinated by Terilin and how she wanted to believe that there was nothing Terilin and Ferris going on. Terilin is a wonderful character and also I think basically a very good person. I think nobody wants to believe the worst about their family and I think Terilin has a lot in common with a lot of other families. I think it's very hard to believe that this mom that you've seen sort of get away with little things over the years has now graduated to the big time and is doing a murder. And you know when Kevin was arrested and then and then Kate I think Terilin still expected very quickly. The police were going to realize they'd made two giant mistakes

9:29and set them free. You know you can see her in this episode sort of starting to change the way she thinks about her mom and sort of what what what how she sort of wrought on her on her brother and her sister and and and other people in the family too. And I mean that was the huge value of Terilin is that she's sort of changing her opinion maybe at the same time the audience is kind of realizing wow this is a lot bigger than I thought. And then you know at the end I think Terilin came came to and does realize the way things really are. Now you know I mean there was there are people in this story um in the Rustelli family who believe that Terilin has some culpability here for which he's never been charged. But there is there really is no evidence. The Terilin had anything to do with this except it was her idea apparently to put the air tag in Matt's truck but that was at the time when she believed that Kate was escaping an

10:37abusive relationship. So that kind of made sense in that context. Her older sister and her mother kept telling her again and again with an awful awful person. Husband was and that he you know was dangerous and that if you're going to leave this man you better do it without announcing it because if you announce that he might kill you. I mean it was that kind of serious allegation and why wouldn't she believe it you know she wasn't right. I mean nobody wants to believe the worst about their family. All right well speaking of Tracy when we come back after this little break we'll hear more from Tracy's police interview the night Matt was killed. Mazda has been named Consumer Reports safest new car brand. It starts with our approach. Every Mazda come standard with proactive safety features so you're more aware of what's around you more focused on the road ahead and ready before problems ever start.

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13:45The cops found this on her devices. It searched online new date line episode on the Adelson case. Various searches about Donna Adelson and the two cases are so similar. There's a divorce. There's a contentious custody battle. Now in this case, the divorce hadn't even filed yet and it was just sort of thinking down the road to what's going to happen if there is a divorce and where are we going to live and who's going to get custody and where the kids going to be. But there was in this case an impending divorce and an impending custody battle and there was an actual one with the Adelson's. But in the same vein, it is the mom the matriarch of the family Donna and Florida and Tracy and Utah who sort of puts this conspiracy in emotion and involves other people some members of the family. In this case,

14:46it was all members of the family but these two cases are remarkably stunningly familiar. And look, the question that I keep coming back to is when I say to the prosecutor, did they miss the part of our story where those people get caught and convicted? He just kind of shakes his head and says, I think that Tracy thought that she could do it better than Donna Adelson. But there's also something where I've seen it before and I don't really wish to cast dispersions on mothers and law but there are certain people who do not like whether there's father-in-law, mother-in-law, do not like the person who's marrying into the family. And that dislike will get to the point where something has to be done about that person. And I mean, you just see how it all develops. In that, this family, right? And Mat's family,

15:47they have a lot in common, right? There are plenty of situations in which one or both families believe that this marriage between their children shouldn't have happened and should end. And that is going all over the United States. And that is also where sometimes manipulation of children by their parents for their own ends happens, right? You're mother and I have thought a lot about this and we think that you and so and so should not be together anymore. And I think that you are, this is a lost cause for you, son or daughter and you know, you should get out. I think that goes on all the time. You know, parents are sort of trying to run their lives by remote control, run their lives of their kids. But for it to go to murder, well, that's a little different. That's something you don't see to reach. It's a reach, right? I was fascinated also with Kate's behavior. I wouldn't have

16:53imagined it. But her infidelities were kind of stunning. How long did it take after he was killed before she was out there? I mean, I mean, he wasn't, Matt wasn't even in the ground when she was going on her first day. It's, I mean, first of all, there's no evidence that we know of that Matt Rastelli was unfaithful to his wife during their marriage. That certainly didn't come out. There is plenty of evidence that Kate was stepping out all the time on him as the years went by. And then, you know, right, after Matt is shot to death in her mom's living room, right? And she has to see his body as she leaves the house, right? This is assuming that she has nothing to do with it, right? She's still going out on a date like within a week. I have to say I, that is a coldness that I'm maybe I should be familiar with it, but I'm not. No, that's, that's a new one on me. That kind of

17:54speed with which the behavior begins. Yeah. And you would think that she would be aware that maybe people might be keeping track of her activities. That's one thing that you sense that they sort of didn't think about was, you know, a murder investigation doesn't end the night the person is killed and the body taken away. What Kate was thinking is sort of hard to fathom. I think she was recording Matt's, her phone calls with Matt because she thought it was going to turn up in court someday as evidence in a divorce case. Why she kept those recordings? I don't understand. I, I mean, this, this was not an impossible plot to unravel. I mean, the evidence was pretty much sitting there on their devices. And, and I would like to point out, police did not

18:56get all those devices the first day. There was several days went by when those devices and all that that damaging information was still in the, it was still the property of Tracy and Kate. Now, again, if you, if you delete that stuff, a, a season digital forensic examiner might be able to recover or at least reveal that it had something like that had been deleted. So I mean, there is that. But there, there, there clearly was a, a sort of disconnect from the evidence that existed to sort of Kate and Tracy believing, well, we're home free. And even if we're not home free, Kevin's going to take the fall, not us. Well, that was fascinating how not only would Kevin take the fall, but maybe he'd kill himself afterwards. And that was okay with the mother. They were sort of ready to sacrifice him. I mean, it, the sense you get from listening to them is that they saw Kevin as damaged an asset to be sort of used the way they wanted to without any concern for his

20:04welfare or future and essentially expendable. And, yeah, you know, he's Tracy's son just like Kate in Terrellon are, are, are her children. It's, it's, it's horrifying, frankly, to think about a mom thinking about her kids like that. But that is apparently where we are. Yeah, I guess so. Then that, that phone call from jail that Kevin, um, you know, revealed that he was in part of the plot. Yeah. Let me remind all viewers and listeners of something that is very widely known in criminal justice work, which is when you make a phone call when you're incarcerated, you keys, I think might particularly want to pay attention to this. Um, just because I, you know, uh, right. There is a, a placard on the wall in nearly every correctional facility that I have ever seen that says essentially your phone call is not private. This, it's being recorded. And it's going to be

21:11listened to by other people, something to that effect. Like this is not, do not think of this as just private line to the outside. The only time you really have any privacy is when you're speaking with your attorney, but you're talking to anybody else in your family or anyone of your friends, they're listening. And I think Kevin thought that because he had already been acquitted of conspiracy, right, that he could then essentially confess to it, which is what he did. And you know, if he makes that call before the verdict, well, then that's evidence it comes in, he gets convicted. Right. The, um, the character I like in addition to your young detective was the brother. Um, Mark, we had two brothers, but yeah, Mark was the, Mark, Mark was the one that, yeah, was primarily on the piece, both seemed like fine people, but, but there was something about Mark that really, that really got under your skin. He's, he's also, he's a very good guy. And I think,

22:12you know, as is frequently the case when this kind of thing happens, people are left with sadness and anger and regret. Because, you know, he hadn't spoken to his brother in a while because the Kate thing was so unpleasant. And he was like, you know, I just can't deal with this. When you, you know, I don't know that he said these words to, to map, but I think his, I think what he, I think his feeling was when you finally deal with this cancer in your life, which is your wife, then we're going to have a relationship again. And again, that is an understandable thing. You cannot fault anyone for wanting to protect themselves and their family and their kids from sort of the psychological damage of being exposed to somebody in your life that is sort of

23:16damaging to others, right, exposing them to this other terrible relationship that's playing on front of them. So I think he thought, like, look, you know, when you get right with your life, we'll be back. And, and then, you know, Matt's gone. And I think he's thinking it was, you know, I should have called him. Well, I mean, I understand that. I don't think it would have changed anything. But it's a, it's a, it's a very understandable reaction. Sure it is. And now he raises the children, which now, now he's got Matt's kids. And, you know, I mean, that's telling you what kind of person, yeah, right? He is, right? Because that, I mean, that more than whatever he did with that relationship with his brother and K, what stepping up now and raising Matt's kids, like that tells you who he is. You know, these, that great old expression that Murphy came up with,

24:19it's not about the murder, it's about the marriage. It applies so well, but it is, it's shorthand. The, the murder is about so much more than just the marriage. It's about all kinds of, you know, psychiatric difficulties that too many people face in life. You know, a guy I know is a homicide detective says that he can classify all murders into the motive is money, love, or pride, right? It's, I'm doing this for the insurance money or I'm doing this because I don't love you anymore, but I do love this person and I want to be with them now. Or it's pride. And this is pride. But there's no financial windfall here for anybody with Matt Rastelli being killed. This is not about love. Kate was not in love with somebody else. I kept waiting for the insurance payout that there was some, going to be some several million dollar policy or something. This appears to be about

25:24pride, power, and control, which was sort of who Tracy was and she'd been for a long time, I think. We've talked about Tracy, but we also have more from her interview with police. The nightmare was killed. At this point, investigators are still trying to figure out what happened. But the officer already seems to think Tracy knows more than she is telling him. So he's on to her. Let's listen. I am so in shock. I am. I did his parents know. Did someone call me? I assume someone has at this point. I've only been here with you to be honest. So all that information, I don't even know myself. So just to be like, can I kind of feel like you do know a little bit more than you're going on? Nope. It was he appeared. I guess I'm more talking about

26:31with Kevin. With Kevin? Nope. No idea where he was. No. Okay. Well, again, honestly, it's the best policy. I almost had nothing. Well, I just wanted to come in here and see if you did remember him, because again, like I said, I know you were singing like a lot of, I don't know. So I just wanted to see if you remember anything else and talk it with a little bit, but nothing becomes the mind at all. I interacted with with with natural, like maybe three seconds. And I didn't see Kevin and Matt went around the corner and by the time I got, I don't even know. I didn't see anything. All I heard was noise. What we were doing was that you were hearing? The shots? That was good. There's no conversation, no confrontation at all.

27:34Not that I heard. Okay. Gotcha. Honestly is the best policy. Yeah, not apparently in that family. Apparently not. I mean, yeah. Fascinating to listen to her answering questions from the officers. The soft spoken, calm, composed sort of demeanor. The maid sounds like she's almost down to jealousy. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't sound like a murderer. No, she's got a whole act. I mean, it's not hard to see why she sort of got away with things and was able to kind of talk her way out of trouble repeatedly. And it's a couple of things. One is it's sort of that persuasive, gentle manner that she has. Right? And she is smart. She is not a dumb person. I mean, they made some dumb mistakes, but she's not dumb. No. Well, I can see why this tale of family dysfunction would be

28:34the season premiere. It's quite a story. Where does it, um, you know, among family stories you have covered? How does this one rate? I would say right near the top. I mean, I, it is mind-boggling. Well, when we come back, let's have a look at some of the social media questions that we got from this episode. If you've been waiting for the right time to tackle your weight loss goals, this is it. Hers now offers access to an affordable range of FDA approved gel P1 medications, including the Bogovi pill and the Bogovi pen. With Bogovi's at hers, lose up to 20% of your body weight when combined with diet and exercise. It helps regulate appetite, eat less, and keep weight off. And as the first-ever gel P1 pill for weight loss, there are no needles needed. Everything is 100% online. A license provider determines if treatment is right for you, and if prescribed medication is delivered to your door, no insurance necessary. You'll also get 24-7 care team messaging, in app lifestyle and nutrition support, and a personalized treatment

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30:40monitoring when you visit simplysafe.com slash date line. That's simplysafe.com slash date line. And when you order, please write in date line in the checkout survey. It lets the know we sent you and it really helps support the show. Simplysafe. A head of crime in real time. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that the new customers who bundle and save with progressive save hundreds. Because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on those ice lattes you love. Switch your home and auto to progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurers not available in all states. Okay now we're going to answer some of your questions in comments from social media. First we have an audio message from a date line viewer who did not leave their name. Hmm. Hmm. I wonder why. Let's listen to that. Hi, I just watched the recent episode

31:44called the Family Bot. And I'm curious to know what flight or free spectrum is. I've heard of the flight or flight response but I'm not familiar with flight or free spectrum. And then also there's so many questions that I had about this episode and comments but one thing that I want to comment on that probably appears was Josh Minkowitz talking to Katie and Kevin's father and encouraging him that there's so much more to live with despite the tragedies that have been folded. And I did cry. I cried. I cried a little bit. I cried a lot. All right. Thank you. Yeah. It was a nice little moment that you had with him. I actually. Stan. Yeah. I mean, first of all, like you and I like we're accustomed to asking the questions in these interviews. Generally, we are not asked questions by the people we interview and certainly we're not asked questions the way Stan asked me that question, which is like you're kind of an

32:49expert on this. What's going to happen to me? That I've never heard that before. You being the investigative reporter and you've seen stuff like this all the time. How am I supposed to move on from this? Does that make sense when I'm asking you? There's a myth out there that some legal proceeding can somehow turn the clock back to when your kids were not convicted murderers and Matt was still alive. You will because you have other children figure out a way to go forward from this. So I was definitely unprepared. I'm glad that I actually did answer that so that made me very happy. That's sort of why I included it because it was so unusual. I've never had anything like that happen in all the years of date. Somebody asked me how am I going to deal with this over the years? And I know you know this because you've seen all these people who've gone through this.

33:50So I'm I was glad that I was able to help him at all because he's having a very tough time. I mean those are his kids too. And he will for some time. I mean lots of us have been through this kind of thing and and it doesn't go away. It never goes away. You just have to figure out it. The other part of her question is the the what Tracy describes as the what did she say? The fighter flight or freeze. Yeah. Yeah. In in the psychological terms it's frequently talked about the flight fight freeze or fawn syndrome. And it's all sort of you know responses that different people have from their sympathetic nervous systems to how they react to a particular trauma. And so Tracy saying you know when when when this trauma happened and by the way I don't think anybody will use this when Tracy saying when when the shots rang out. I froze. That's why I took so long to

34:55call 911. Again, this is one more thing that I they clearly did not plan for. Other people are going to hear the shots. Other people are going to call 911. The amount of time that you think you have. I think they were waiting to make sure that Matt was dead. That's what I think. I think they were. I think they were waiting to make sure that he couldn't testify that he couldn't give his side of the story. And then they put the knife in his hand the wrong hand unbelievably dumb. The wrong way. The wrong hand. Yeah. Right. And facing the wrong way in the wrong hand. And I think only then did they call that they call 911 and they were pretty surprised. I think Tracy was pretty surprised to hear from the 911 operator. Yeah, we already know about it. We're on our way. And then they were like that because they'd already had a big lead time. Here's a question from 2.009 KKLA on Instagram. Interesting name. Does the grandfather Kate's dad have any contact with the kids? He seemed to love Matt and knew his daughter and ex were trouble. The short answer is

36:02I don't know if he's having any contact with Matt's kids. I know that the I don't think there's a lot of contact between those two families at all. The caveat to that might be that like stands not really a part of that family anymore and hasn't been for a long time. So so maybe he will. But I'm actually unaware of any contact that that he has with his grandchildren. At Bobby G 62 said I was wondering about the knife in his hand. Was it tested for DNA to see who all touched it? It was put there in my opinion. Yeah, it had a mix of DNA on it. They did test it but it didn't prove that it was Tracy's and it didn't prove that it was Kate's. Marsha Barrett said this one was a tough watch. This poor man was set up so coldly by his own in laws. I do have a question. Did the police do gunshot residue tests on the mother, daughter, and son? Just to verify it was Kevin who actually pulled the trigger. Well, no, because you know, Kevin like admitted

37:06to it. I mean, there wasn't any question about whether or not anybody else pulled the trigger. And also we don't know what happened in the moments after even if you even if you believe Tracy Kate and Kevin's story, we don't it's not clear what happened in the moments after he was shot. Like if you fire a gun in self-defense and then hug your mom because this terrible thing just happened, you can transfer some of that gunshot residue to them, right? So I mean, that wouldn't necessarily prove anything in either way. It goes all over the place. But no one, no one denied that Kevin actually pulled the trigger. I mean, this wasn't about who shot Matt Ristelli. It was about the the plot that got Matt Ristelli into that living room. Well, now we have some comments at Spoony Lupin, which I name I absolutely love said. Yeah. I don't think they're very good true crime fans. They wouldn't have made all those rookie mistakes. Have to agree. No argument. No. At shebuster 85

38:10said poor Matt, he didn't deserve this. Well, I have to agree with that also. No one deserves this. No. And then it's my gray life said this was such a great season premiere, Josh. Take a bow and lester. Oh my gosh. This is going to be a great season. I just know it. And then Keith, I can't wait to hear from you. Well, that may happen at some point. But I agree. This is going to be a great season. I mean, 35 years, Josh has been a while. I mean, look, look, when you and I joined this program in 1995, I did not think to myself. Oh, yeah. Now you're set. This is the, this is it. You'll do this the rest of your career until you retire. I, you know, nothing lasts 35 seasons in in TV. Yeah. It's very, very, very rare. And that is, uh, that's partly because of the people that

39:10you don't see on date line, the people behind the cameras and the editing equipment and our producers and more than part of the Josh. Yeah. Yeah. And and all our researchers and the APs and all the people who fly the drones, all the stuff that you sort of don't see. And also, you know, hugely, uh, I hope I'm pointing at you because I never know how this comes out on camera. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, okay. All right. It's pointing at you. I'll do that. But yeah. Well, there are other people too. I mean, there's all the other people who have not not only, they're not only the other people, you know, blame and Andrea and lester, but also all the people who have been date line correspondents over the years and who sort of helped us get where we are. But, but like, who we really need to think is you like listeners and viewers who that that's why we're here about 35 years later. And so, thank you, all of you. Yes, it was an unexpected gift and we're very happy to have.

40:15Even if it involves spending more time than any reasonable person would want to do with Josh Makeowitz. I knew that was coming. I had to deliver some insult. It was kind of a lame one, though, I think it was good. It was, it was right sort of in character. Well, that brings us to the end of our delightful program with Mr. Makeowitz. And it's been nice to see you as always. Well, it's very nice to see you. I saw you very briefly when we were on the today show together. And I don't, I don't see you enough in all truthfulness, despite how incredibly mean to me you are all the time. I'm trying to overlook that. Yeah. It's nice to see you, Josh. Nice to see you. Remember if you have any questions about this episode or any other episode or any question you would like to ask us, you can reach out to us on social media at at dateline NBC. You can also leave us a voicemail, which is 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. And let me just say like the woman who did not leave her name, but recorded that message earlier about how

41:19great I am. Let me just say talking about how great a job I did, that's going to get you on talking date line. That's just a little inside tip. And you can also watch the video version of talking date line on YouTube or on the NBC News app. Keith and I in Andrea and Lester and Blaine. We'll see you Fridays on date line on NBC. And Dean, we will. Hey listeners, I'm Ash and I'm Alina and we are so excited to have joined the Sirius XM family. And you know what, if you want to keep hearing new episodes of Morvid ad free, subscribe to Sirius XM podcast plus on Apple podcasts or visit SiriusXM.com slash podcast plus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice. Let's go!