The AI-Proof Genre Is...

0:00Welcome to the Story Nerd podcast, Hook Your Reader episode. This is where we give authors our professional advice about their career letters and first page writing samples. I'm Kathleen Fox and I'm a literary agent with writes factory in Toronto and a freelance editor at Fox editorial. And I'm Valerie France and I'm an author and a story editor and I teach women who are writing in all genres. I'm a writer craft a book so good that it hooks a reader on page one and never let's go. On today's episode we're reviewing a darkly comedic psychological thriller from Tasha Tinsley. Before we get started we'd love it if you could help other writers find our show by leaving a rating and a review. For Apple Podcast listeners you can do it right from your phone, simply go to the show's landing page and scroll to the bottom. It's that simple. And if you're watching us on YouTube please hit like and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. And of course my views and opinions shared here are my own and are not necessarily reflective

1:01of the rights factory or other agents. Alright Kathleen as always I will get started by reading Tasha's query letter and then we'll get your thoughts on it. Now a reminder that if you want to read the query letters in the first 10 pages writing samples that we review here on the show all you have to do is sign up to my mailing list and you can do that by going to Valerie France's dot c a slash checklist and download the first 10 pages checklist. Okay here we go with Tasha's letter. Dear Kathleen, complete at 80,000 words how to kill your publisher is a darkly comedic psychological thriller that can be considered a female lead basic instinct. It combines the accessible humor of Bella Mackeys how to kill your family and the simmering obsession of Alice Slater's death of a bookseller. The first literary agent's death had nothing to do with me honestly. Tams and no she's written the best seller the problem no one else does after one rejection

2:01too many she decides to take matters into her own hands with a new novel taking inspiration from an unusual albeit go task source. This time she's making sure her work can't be ignored and there's one agent she has her heart set on. Early literary assistant Annika is horrified when her mentors sudden death rocks the publishing industry yet she can't deny the sliver of excitement when she's pulled back from maternity leave early by an enticing offer a shot at a promotion and her first chance to sign an author. Then a submission lands in her inbox disturbing addictive impossible to forget. At first working with Tams and is a welcome relief to a life revolving around diapers and nap time but as Annika draws closer to Tams and her story the lines between fiction and reality blur. The bodies in the manuscript aren't staying on the page and if it isn't fiction Annika may have already been written into the ending. How to kill your publisher is told through a dual POV balancing the perspective of an unhinged

3:05antihero writer and the emotionally resident resident journey of a struggling literary agent offering a satirical window into the world of publishing. Until recently I was represented by United agents UK and I'm now seeking new representation. I'm a former chief marketing officer in the beauty industry having spent a decade working for brands like L'Oreal and L'Human that just tells you now my experience in the beauty industry. L'Oreal and L'Human. I began writing during the quiet hours of early motherhood and like the ambitious protagonist in my novel I dream of seeing my work in print albeit by less nefarious means. I studied economics at Cambridge, Livin London and have two children and a Shetland sheep dog named Oriel. Please find the first 10 pages attached a full manuscript is available upon request. Thank you for your time and consideration all the best Tasha and then Tasha's got little

4:06asterisk with a disclaimer. This writing utilizes comedic satire of the publishing industry and I personally have nothing but love for agents and editors alike. All right, Kathleen, lay it on me. What do you think of the query letter? Yeah, the query letter I found like overall it was quite intriguing. I wouldn't say it's entirely unique because you know we do hear stories about you know writers writing about their writing experience and their experience you know how hard it is to get a literary agent to get things published and things like that. But it's also you know like there's deaths involved so that immediately kind of makes it more intriguing. So yeah my curiosity is peaked in terms of the structure. I think that adding a personalization line would be good. I talk about that all the time and that just shows the agent why you're clearing them specifically.

5:06And I also think that you could bring up the pertinent information in like near the bottom of the query letter into the introductory paragraph. The fact that it's a dual POV and that it's a satirical window into the publishing world. I don't think you need to spell out the scenes. It's apparent in the plot paragraphs as it should be. So I would just say to trust that agents reading this will pick up on them. And then in terms of the plot paragraphs, usually I recommend to not start with you know quote from the manuscript or line of dialogue or something like that because we don't have any context yet. This particular line though seems to enhance the query letter because we know roughly what kind of story it's going to be and this zooms in on something specific. So it's not just another publishing story. There are murders happening right? So it also makes me think that we're being set up for maybe an unreliable narrator or someone who's really morally gray.

6:08And then the next paragraph shows me that Hamson is very confident, maybe a little unhinged. I do I do wonder about a few things. First, what the unusual albeit protest source is. I'm not sure what exactly that means. And I also wonder why Hamson has her heart set on this particular agent, especially if she's not quite an agent, right? She doesn't we find out in the pages later that she she's a literary assistant who has not signed any of her own clients. So I'm wondering where like why does she have her heart set on her. And also I wondered if Hamson is who killed or perhaps arranged to have killed. And it has mentor assuming, you know, it's a successful literary agent that was killed. How would she know that the agency would then promote an assistant who's on maternity leave and give her this particular project? So did she somehow make sure that that would be the case?

7:09How did she control that outcome? It seems a little bit coincidental or convenient or like good luck, which we don't want to have in fiction, right? Even though it's not truth, right? It's fiction. There still has to be a logical path or a reason for everything that's happening to allow the reader to suspend their disbelief. So it might not be the case that it's coincidental, but I think that that should be made clear in the query letter. And then my question at the end of the plot paragraphs is why would Hamson want Anna Kutcher represent her if she plans on killing her off? Like what does Hamson's end goal? I thought it was to be published and then she seemingly gets this new agent, but the agent might be on some sort of hit list. Some of it that confused about what the protagonist's goals are. It states the lines between fiction and reality blur, but what does that mean? What's happening and why is it happening? So my advice would be to add in some of those missing details and remove the paragraph

8:12that follows the plot paragraphs. I don't think it's necessary and I think doing that will free up some space for you to add the plot details that we need to know. Okay, this is interesting because it's highlighting something in the query letter that clearly needs to be refined a bit because when Tasha, I'm trying not to call the author, Tamzin, because I might, when Tasha, the author in the query letter says that Tamzin has her heart set on one particular agent, I thought that was the Anna Kuzmentor and you read it as Anna Kka. So. So this is really interesting because one of my questions to you is about the plot paragraphs because the way Tasha has presented it, it's different, right?

9:12It's a bit different than we've seen so far, but different doesn't necessarily get it's wrong because a few weeks ago we had one that was quite different, but was still really good. I can't remember which week that was, but it wasn't, it was just a little while ago. Okay, to me, the plot paragraphs here in the query letter read more like a back cover blurb and it's very hooky. I was hooked and in fact, I was trying not to laugh as I was reading it because I think it's hilarious. We'll get to that in a minute. And I think Tasha has done a really good job of explaining the premise of the story. Yes. However, we don't get a lot about the plot, right? We've got the inciting incident for both of the point of view characters, right? And that's paragraph one and paragraph two of her three paragraph. It's a bit here in the query letter, but we don't have a lot of information about the rest of the stuff that's happening in the book. And I think that's, I think I'm, my question was kind of the same as yours there because

10:15Tasha writes only that as Anika draws closer to Tams and in her story, the lines between fiction and reality blurb, right? I picked up on that and so, so did you. The body's in the manuscript around staying on the page and if it isn't fiction, Anika may have already been written into the ending. So I read this as a serial killer thriller and life and death stakes are obviously part of that. So I'm wondering if, if it's, how do I say this, if authors of stories where these stakes are really clear, like a murder mystery, right, or romance, where we kind of know what's going to be in the middle, right? So we know in the middle of this book, agents are dying. In this kind of a setup, or like in a murder mystery where the middle of the book is clues that are being investigated and read herrings and that kind of stuff, do we still need

11:20a full plot paragraph or can they kind of fudge it a little bit? I'm thinking they still need the full thing because of the questions you're asked, like the logic questions. Why, well, first of all, who is the agent that Tamsen really wants? Is it Anika or her mentor? And then if the object of desire is to be published, then how would kill your agent help that? And it might be a really good, this might not be a plot hole at all. It might not be a logic problem at all in the novel. Like as you're reading the novel, it might make total sense. But as we are reading the query letter, it feels like a logic problem at the moment. So what do you think? Do we need these full plot paragraphs no matter what the genre is or are there some genres where you can kind of get away with it a little bit?

12:23That's a good question because, and I can't think of anything specific, but I know I've received query letters where it like, I'm hooked and it doesn't follow the structure at all. And it doesn't, you know, you might have one plot paragraph and there's not very much to it. And I'm just like, done. Sign me up where the page is. So it's hard to, I mean, there's no magic formula, right? And there's no way to say this is right or this is wrong in any particular situation. I always err on the side of caution though. Like when I'm recommending things, I recommend to make sure you include those details. Like if we can understand it all in a single short paragraph, great, that's, it's really hard to do. And especially if it's a dual POV story, like you want to show that there's two POVs, right? You want to show those two characters because, yeah, it's hard to do in the span of like

13:28less than a page, but yeah, the more details, like it's just like, you know, what we were both saying, we have some questions. And it's really interesting that you have a different take on who the agent is. Yeah, that's a, that's a, that's something that Tasha needs to address because, because one of us could be right and the other wrong, both of us could be right, both of us could be wrong. So the big takeaway here is whatever agent is reading your query letter shouldn't be guessing anything, shouldn't be wondering how it's, you know, and if you've got a writer's group that you belong to, then give it, give your query letter to the people in your writer's group, but give it to them with specific questions so that you guide the feedback that they give you so that they don't, so that they don't feel like they have to tell you what you want to hear.

14:29Because that can happen because you're all friends and nobody wants to hurt anyone's feelings and all that kind of stuff. Now honestly, Kathleen, I was hooked when I read this. I laughed the whole way through. Yes. And Tasha's writing in the query letter is very good. So I was set up ready to dive into the pages. I wondered though, and this is just my curiosity. If agents by and large would get the joke or not, what do you think? I know this is totally your opinion here, but what do you think? Yeah. I mean, I did. I don't imagine that others would not. I mean, again, I can't speak for anybody else, but, you know, and I've seen some manuscripts like as an editor, especially where people are, they just don't know.

15:30So they might have something in there where they like, you know, they published a manuscript and they are sorry, not published. They query it a manuscript and someone called them saying, we want to publish it and let's meet up in person. And this is what we want to offer you. And it's just so smooth and easy and quick. And there's never any problems. And it just, it perpetuates, it perpetuates issues, right? Like it's people think that that's the way it's going to go. And then it's definitely not how it goes. So I always, I explain the process, how it typically goes. And I bring it to their attention so that they're not a, confuse themselves. Let's just say they self-publish this story. And it's got a piece of information there. It's just, you know, about the publishing process and it's not correct, right? Like that, it's perpetuating people's beliefs in how it works and that's not how it works. So I always encourage people to, like I explain it to them so they know and I explain it so

16:36that they can, you know, correct it in the manuscript and not perpetuate that. But it's something like this. This is completely different, right? This is a very satirical view of how publishing works. And I was also laughing, especially when I got to the opening page. I was like killing myself laughing, right? Because it's, that is definitely not how it goes, but it's, it's supposed to be, it's, I think it's supposed to have that effect on the reader. So yeah, it's, it's done very, very well. And I think, I, I think agents would get it. I think there's maybe some times where we get a manuscript that is sort of, you know, has a similar, I don't know, similar premise, but something to do with, with the publishing industry and how it works from the inside. And it's always interesting to see what an outside view is. But yeah, I, I, I was definitely hooked. I think that other agents would also get it and, and probably be hooked as well.

17:41Good. Oh, I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, I was hooked totally. And we'll get to the opening pages in a minute, but it does start from Tam's point of view when she is the writer. So it, it definitely cuts close to the bone on some of it. But in a, in a funny way, anyway, and I'm so glad. Thank you, Tasha for writing satire. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, now I have a question about the comp titles. So to me, this is like the studio for publishing. Now, the studio is an Apple TV show from 2025. Anyone who has not watched the studio, I highly recommended it is Seth Rogan. And the film industry didn't get the joke when he, um, start was shopping around his scripts. It was a, a no from everybody. And I heard an interview with him.

18:41And he said, you know, he finished the work day on Friday and the studio was dead in the water. No one would touch it. And he thought, okay, I'll just rest on the weekend and Monday I'll start working on a new project. Well, that weekend Barbie came out and, um, then all of a sudden the studio on Monday was greenlit. So my question is, is the studio, even though it's an Apple TV show, it's not a TV show, is this something she could use as a comp title? Because in her comp titles, how to call your family came out in 2021 and death of a bookseller came out in 23. What do you think? Mm hmm. Um, you want to try and keep it within the last three years or maybe max five years if it's a really, really strong comp and it did really well. In terms of using a TV show or a movie or a series or something like that, like there's, is that what you're wondering if is it okay to use something like that?

19:42Yeah, because the, because 2021 is old now. It's, I mean, we're recording this in 26. I don't know when she's going to start querying, but this is now mid August 26 when we're recording this. So she can kind of get away with it for another couple of months, but then it's going to feel too old. So the thing about comp titles, in my opinion, is that as, as querying writers, we've got to constantly be looking for comp titles, even if we've already begun the query process, because some titles that we pick could get a bit old, we might find something that's better because the publishing landscape is always changing and something that isn't published yet today could come out next month. And it's, yes, this is a great comp title for us. So we're going to constantly be looking and you might want to also have different sets of comp titles depending on how you're going to pitch it to, to be attractive to each individual

20:42agent that you query. So yeah, could she use an Apple TV show as one of her comps with a novel? Yeah, absolutely. I usually recommend to have two books because this is a book and you're, it's going to be marketed, marketed like a book. And then to just really bring it home, it's, you know, the vibe of XYZ TV show or Apple TV show or whatever it is. But yeah, I mean, as long as you have one book in there, then that's a start, right? Like, your agent is going to have to send it out with comp titles that are books. So if you can give them at least one, preferably two, it helps in the process. They might be used. The agent might come up with something completely different, but it helps, it helps get things started. But yes, we do sometimes say, and you'll see like a publisher's marketplace when there's a book deal announced, you'll sometimes see compared to, you know, pitched as four fans

21:45of, you know, whatever the show title is. So yeah, it happens all the time. I have a question while we're in comp titles and the age of comp titles because as writers start to research agents and look at all the different manuscript, wish lists and all that kind of stuff, agents will sometimes say, you know, I'm looking for, well, they're looking for a book that is like a TV show like shoot, is it yellow jackets? I'm totally blanking on it. There was a lot for a while, there are a lot of agents who said, give me a book like yellow jackets or give me a book like get out. Now, I can't remember when get out came out, but it's, I'm short, it's older than five years by now. And they are also putting on their manuscript wish lists. I want to book like fill in the blank with some huge, big blockbuster title, which is the things that we're not supposed to do.

22:46Big blockbuster titles, big blockbuster things, not novels. How would writers or how should writers approach that? Can they, can they in those situations look, use get out as an example if that's what the agent has put on their wish list? I'm, I am querying you today because you're looking for stories comparable to get out blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Something like that. I would think so. If that particular agent has that in their wish list, absolutely. If it's a good fit, right? If it's a really, really good fit and it makes sense. Like I would never recommend to use it just to get the attention of the agent if it's not really a good calm. But yeah, and even in this one, she said it's like basic instinct for, I can't remember how she stated it now, basic instinct, women led or something like that. Female led, basic instinct, something like that.

23:47It's an old movie these days now, right? I mean, that came out probably 40 years ago. Well, maybe not 40. I don't know. A long time ago, anyway. It's a long time ago. Yeah. And like even, even for me, I have, I have certain movie titles and show titles on my own wish list. So if it's not, if you're not using that in most of your queries, but you see it, sorry, now I've got something in my eye. Oh my goodness. If you're not using that in most of your queries, but you see it mentioned specifically, and you're like, wow, wow, yeah, that actually really works. And yeah, this agent sounds like a great fit. I'm going to query this person. You can absolutely change the cons that you're using in the query to match their taste if it makes sense. Okay. Just a couple more questions and we'll get into the opening pages. And the reason I'm sort of pausing on so many questions on the query letter is because it's really important. Because there's no, you know, the query letter, yes, there's a base form.

24:49But then as you start to query a thousand questions come up. And I think this is a really good time. I use it every once time to sort of pause and chat about it a little bit. So Tasha says that she was previously represented. I'm assuming this is as an author. But I don't know that for sure. But if it was as an author, then I don't think she published anything because I couldn't see anything on Amazon in my quick search. But she also said something like she was excited to see her. Now I can't remember if this was in Tasha's query letter or in Tim's opening chapter. Oh no, the blurring in my mind. And I don't have it here in front of me. I think she said in a query letter that she was excited to see her first book published or something like that. I can't remember. Anyway, my questions are sort of twofold.

25:52The first one is if an author has been represented by an agent before for something other than a book, like maybe they're also an actor, right? And they're the agency that they were represented by also had literary agents as well as talent agents for actors and stuff. Would they need to mention it? And if they have had literary representation before, whether or not the book ever made it all the way to market, do they need to reveal that in the query letter or can that come up during the offer call? What are your thoughts on that? I always like to see it in the query letter just as a very brief, like, you know, I was previously represented. You don't even have to say who it was or which agency it was. You can just say, you know, who's part of ways amicably and now I'm looking for a new their agent. Like, that's all you need to say. It helps me to know that you've already had the experience of working with a literary agent. And that's something that we can get into on the call if this is something that I want

26:55to talk to you further about. So yeah, I always recommend to say that. Okay. And as a nice little segue into the opening pages, in Tasha's example that she sent in, she did send in 10, the first 10 pages of her manuscript, but then there was a cover page with it. Is this cover page necessary or does it just, is it like an obstacle to the, to the agent who's now got to scroll past this thing to get to the page one of the book? Don't, I mean, for me, it doesn't really matter. Like it's, it's nice to have a cover page. It's, you know, it kind of gives that professionalism to it. With, you know, we don't need to know your contact information, but it's nice to know, like, just to see, like, the word count or something like that. Yes, I can see it in the bottom. If I'm opening it as a word document, I can see how many words it is, but it's nice to, to just have that to begin with. And it's, if it's only a page, then it's, yeah, it's not really an obstacle.

27:57I don't view it as an obstacle myself, anyway. Okay. For those of you on my mailing list, when you get the email with Tasha's query letter and first 10 pages, you're going to see that the formatting is really wonky. That is not Tasha's fault. Okay. What she sent to me was a perfectly formatted PDF, but she had included her personal contact information. So I had to convert it to a word document to, to black out her personal contact information, because I'm not sending that out to anybody. And I am the one who monkeed with the formatting. So it's going to look wonky, but that is totally on me. It is not Tasha. What she sent in was beautiful. Okay. So let's talk about the first 10 pages. Now, right off the top, I just have to say that the line writing is excellent. And the way that Tasha has delineated the dual points of view that she is working with works. It's simple. It's easy. It's no fuss. And because it's not done all of the time when it is done, it like it hasn't gotten

29:02stale yet, I guess, it's a way to put it. And what she's done is actually put the point of view characters name right under the chapter number. So chapter one says one and then tamson. And in chapter two, it says two, anika. Easy, easy, lemon, squeezy. So it's super clear. And she made it clear in the query letter that we were going to have a dual POV story. So that's great. And we got to see both points of view in the sample pages. So Tasha, all your boxes are checked there. Gold stars. Well done. Now, Tasha's character descriptions in terms of the physical appearance of both of these women is also very well done. Like it's effortless. This is something honestly that writers can trip up over super easily. And if it happens in your first draft, don't worry about it. The only thing the first draft has to do is exist. So never try to write and edit at the same time. Because it's like hitting the gas pedal and the brake pedal at the same time and you end up

30:02going nowhere. But as you start to edit, you know, do various revisions and various passes of the story, how you introduce your characters is one thing that you're going to want to pay attention to and how you describe what they look like. If you describe what they look like. Because the trap is that we focus on hair color and eye color and it's really blatant. You know, Tamsen was five foot 10 with red hair and pale skin and blah, blah, blah. And it's not very interesting. But the way that Tasha has introduced both Tamsen and Anika and let's us know what they look like is seamless. It's effortless. It makes sense for the story. It flows. And you kind of, you just get the information and suddenly you know what Tamsen looks like. But you don't quite really remember how you figured it out. Right? So we know that Tamsen is fair skin because she talks about how easily she would burn in the

31:03Australian sun. And we know her hair is not just red, but we have the exact color of red. And it's because of a gift that her friend had given to her. And likewise, we know that Anika has dark skin because the tattoo artist comments on in the tattoo, which colors would show well against her skin tone. Yeah, so the exposition here is seamless and really to everyone on my mailing list, I recommend reading the query letter and the first 10 pages here because the exposition has done really well. And if you're not on my mailing list, you want to get on it. I also like the way that each of the first two chapters has ends. Tasha has not ended them on cliffhangers. However, I do have questions and they are questions born from curiosity, not confusion. I want to know the answers to these questions so I'm going to keep reading. And that is not an easy thing to do.

32:04So Tasha, again, well done, kudos to you. You're calling it darkly comedic. You also call it satirical. As I said, thank you, thank you, thank you. I worry sometimes that as an industry, we are showing away from satire for whatever reason I don't know. Maybe because it's so hard to write. It requires intelligence and wit and an elevated ability, an elevated form of writing. It's not easy. I don't know the answer, but I look forward to seeing more satire in the industry. I want it to come back. What a lot of writers will do, and I don't know if it was just sort of a pocket of time where I saw this a lot. Or if it's a thing that writers really do, and I never noticed it before I entered into the industry. A novel will be called Funny.

33:06You'll hear about how funny it is, and it might be a comic. But what it is is the main character who's just sarcastic, and sarcasm, and humor are not the same thing at all. So for anyone who can write satire, write it, because we just love it. And if you want to AI proof your work, I think that comedy is the way to do it. I think it's satire. I don't think AI will ever, ever, ever be able to write satire. I just don't think it will. Even though there's 1,000 wonderful things in this sample, in these sample pages, I want to give Tasha some ideas as to how she could make them even stronger. So my big recommendation, Tasha, is to start the book with a more active scene. Now I'm not talking about a big car chase scene, right? Like that. But in your first, I think it's the first five pages are Tamsen's scene. I think that's chapter 1.

34:08There's a lot of what I call stage setting happening here, and absolutely we need to introduce the reader to the fictional world as quickly as possible into the main characters as quickly as possible. But we need to do it through activities, through some kind of active event. And you have done that in chapter 2, right? So when Anika is getting a tattoo, this is an active scene because through it, we're learning all about Anika and her world. And it's really interesting. Anika is going through something physically, but also emotionally. And so I know you have the chops to do it. So I'd like to see it in chapter 1 because by contrast in chapter 1, we had a lot of description of Tamsen's situation, which is not actually doing much besides checking her email obsessively. Which means that Tamsen's very passive, right? Because she is waiting to hear back from an agent. And I would like to see her doing something active and

35:12meet her that way. Now this ties into the art of knowing where to start your story. I talked a lot about that last week, and I'm not going to repeat it here because I went on it some link. So if you have not heard last week's episode yet, definitely go back and listen to it. This week, I came across something that I wanted to pass along because it drives home the importance of starting your story actively and as close to the inciting incident as possible. Tashen may decide to keep her first chapter exactly the way it is, right? But I think all of us need to really think about where we have started our story and why we have started it there and make a really strategic decision. Here's why. I'm reading a novel right now called Cruelty Free by Carolyn Glenn. I'm not finished yet, but I'm well into it. And honestly, this is one of the best books I have read

36:16in a really long time. And it's also a serial killer story. It's listed as a psychological horror novel and satire. And it's about the film industry, not publishing. So Tasha, this might be a title that you want to look at or certainly a book that you want to look into and decide if it's an accurate comp title or not because it came out this year. I think it was February 26. Anyway, my point here is that the writing and the storytelling, so at the line level and at the global story level, Cruelty Free is extremely good. It is like Gone Girl in that as you're reading the story that's unfolding on the page, you're aware that there's another much bigger story unfolding as well. Although you can't quite see it at first. You don't know what it is, but you know something else is also going on. Cruelty Free starts with a terrific working scene that establishes the world and introduces the main character and the backstory is woven in in a series

37:18of archived interviews, much like Daisy Jones in the six. And it makes complete sense for the narrative. It is natural to that world, so it works really well. So I'm reading this book thrilled with this great author I've just discovered and I am a fan and when her next book is announced, I am pre-ordering it. That's how much I like this book. Okay. Then I came across a review in Publishers Weekly and Kathleen, I left so that I did not cry. And Publishers Weekly said this and I'm quoting After a somewhat slow and aimless start, the pace picks up and the plot finds its footing. Now nothing could be further from the truth. I think Publishers Weekly is full of BS, right? I think this is a willful and embarrassing display of complete ignorance on the part of Publishers Weekly. And yet it's a highly influential trade magazine in our own industry. These are the people

38:24who are supposed to be able to recognize artistry. So clearly any degree of subtleties go right over their head. So all of this to say, Tasha and everybody else, it behooves us all to make sure that our main character is doing something active in the opening pages of our novel and that the tension has to be, you know, what I think of as in real time, like for example, in chapter 2 when Anika is getting her tattoo, she is in real time feeling tense about it. And there are stakes attached to this act of getting a tattoo. It has implications for her marriage. We don't know exactly what they're going to be yet, but we know it's something. We know it's going to make her home life difficult in some way. Now, I don't mean that we have to write in present tense all the time. What I mean is that there has to be some consequence for the main character to that physical act that is happening

39:27in the open pages. Whatever they do has to complicate their situation and move the plot forward right from the get go. With Tams and at the end of page 5, we get a hint that she's about to take action, right? But she hasn't taken it yet. So, Tasha, my question to you is this, can you open your novel with whatever action Tams and is about to take? Can you get the opening of your book closer to the inciting incident? Not that I want you to delete your first five pages and and throw them in the garbage. No, no, no, no, no, no, because it's really well written and it's super funny. So, you could use it a little further into the book and it might work really wonderfully. So, it's just something for you to think about, something for you to play with, try it on, see if it works, and good luck. Seriously, good luck. I really hope you find your agent in this book,

40:31comes out into the world and when it does, I'm expecting a signed copy. That's all I have to say. All right, Kathleen, what are your thoughts about Tasha's opening pages? Yeah, I agree. I think on the whole, they were very well done. When I started reading, I'm like, yeah, she's unhinged for sure. Tams and that is. So, her attitude towards publishing and how it all works is absolutely comical. I was also laughing. And from the perspective of an agent and editor and someone who has also written manuscripts, you know, what she says in the third paragraph on the first page, could probably be said by almost nearly every other writer who has been drafted their first novel. And it just keeps going from there. Many writers feel that the more pages there are or the higher the word count, the better and that their focus better than everyone else's.

41:33Before and it's perfect in every way and it deserves to be published. And then after some time goes by, we gain more experience and we realize that that's not the way it works. 99.9% of the time. So, yeah, I'm sure that's what your intention is to make agents chuckle or a writer's chuckle and to connect with other writers who have also learned the same things. But yeah, if that's your intention, I think you're nailing it for sure. I found Tamsen to be very boycy, meaning that I can hear her voice and I can like see her personality popping out on the page. We learn about her personality and a little bit about her background very seamlessly like the said Valerie. So, we don't dive into a big long background story situation, which is what I do find a lot of the time with newer writers, especially, you know, they want to get the eyes and the hair color and what they're wearing and what they look like and how they walk and all of that and some background details. They want to

42:34get that all out. And so, many writers tend to put that in a paragraph or maybe some paragraphs and that it detracts from the pacing and the tension and all of that, right? So, what you've done is very, very good. Let me just look at my notes here. Yeah, Tamsen's view of how the industry works, what she needs to do, how long she should wait, what agents actually spend their time doing is so, so far off of the truth, which I mentioned again, it's comical. I have read, I mentioned before that I have read with some manuscripts where there is a genuine belief, you know, that a particular aspect of publishing or agenting is done a certain way and that's, you know, it's just unknown or misunderstood and so I usually will explain that to

43:34the writer. It's usually in an editorial, an editorial project that I'm working on and so, you know, we want to kind of reduce the stigma or the, you know, we've increased the understanding of how the publishing industry works so that people that are, you know, maybe entering in or wanting to enter into the publishing industry in some way don't have misinformation. But in this particular case, like this is, it's the purpose of this is to be satirical and make people chuckle or laugh. And I also think that, you know, this character that's full of all the wrong beliefs, I think that just helps show her moral reinness and canalizes her, what I think will be poor decisions that are made. I don't know that for sure, but that's, you know, that I think that's what's happening. And at the end of the first chapter, I do wonder what it is that she thinks that she can do to ensure that she'll hear from an agent and or secure representation. So,

44:41yeah, I was interested in that. So, again, like she, she isn't really doing anything, but the information that we are getting is being revealed in a very, very, very good way. So it's not, it's not the writing, Valerie, you were, you know, you were pointing to this too. It's definitely not the writing. And this is absolutely essential information. And it's, you know, building her character and it's voice and all of that stuff, which is really, really important. But if we could learn that seeing her doing something, that would be good. And then in the second chapter, we're here in Comanica and although she's a completely different person, I don't know, there is a difference in her voice, but it's, you know, she seems uptight or very anxious. She seems like a rule breaker or sorry, she isn't a rule breaker. She's breaking the rules. That's what she's coming across as to me. And she feels bad about it, but she's doing something anyway, something maybe rebellious. But there seems to be something almost similar in the voiceiness of Anica,

45:50in comparison to Tamson. And I think, I don't know, I would have to read a little bit more to see if that is, you know, if it remains the same. But that was just something that I, you know, it's just something that popped up. She does mention, sorry, Anica does mention that she's a literary agent assistant. And that, you know, we understand that she wants to move up in that world, but to me, what is coming across on these pages is that her mom and wife guilt are maybe of the utmost importance, you know, that's, it's taking up all of her, her energy right now. Her goal in this scene is to get a tattoo, but nothing that her unobservant husband will notice, but she's still going to get it. There's tension there. Anyone who's ever gotten a tattoo and doesn't like pain, will recall what this feels like. Anyone who hasn't will probably imagine what it feels like. So there is that inherent tension there. It's emotional reaction, a physical sensation, even though you're

46:55not actually feeling it. So that, you know, you're looking for those reactions. That's always always good. And I am very curious about what she lied about on the forum at the tattoo parlor. It's bad enough that it could have resulted in her leaving without getting a tattoo, right? So that's, you know, maybe a potentially health-related thing. So I'm very, very curious about that. And it also lets us know that she can lie. So very, very interested in seeing her character develop as we go. Yeah, but mostly I feel like Annika's main concerns are more about her motherhood and her marriage and her emotional and mental state. So it didn't, although it's mentioned, it didn't come across to me as like a main, main goal for her to become a literary agent. But again, you're establishing her norm before the inciting incident occurs. And so I'm curious about how this facet of her life will be altered when we get to the inciting incident. And perhaps when she gets

47:58offered the position after her mentor dies, this chapter is setting her up for jumping at it without considering potential consequences. Because she's so desperate to add some excitement and positivity to her life. But yeah, so I do wonder if adding just a little bit more focus to her goal of becoming a literary agent and, you know, maybe signing her first client or something like that, maybe having that just a little bit more of a focus, just a little bit in this chapter. Maybe that would help. But yeah, all in all, these open pages are fantastic. The challenge with dual POV or any story that has multiple plot lines, like multiple serious plot lines, I'm not talking about a main plot in a sub plot, or multiple points of view is that you've got to like in this case, we've got two POV characters, two story lines. Each one, you've got to hook the reader on. So if you do a really great job in the first five

49:02pages and you hook them on what's going on with Tamsen, then you switch point of view is to Anika. You got to start all over from scratch and hook them all over in a whole new storyline. And however you finish the Tamsen storyline, whenever you break that to switch over to Anika, you have to break it in a place and in a way that is so enticing, your reader will stay with your book through the Anika bits to get back to the Tamsen bits. Likewise, when you break from Anika's to go to Tamsen, you've got to do the same thing. So I agree with what Kathleen has just said, and I'm just going to toss this out or something for you to play with. Are you starting the Anika storyline as close to its inciting incident as you can? Because you need to, because there are two different story lines, even though you're telling one global story, there's two story lines within it. And so you're doing twice the work, basically.

50:11Not that you can't do it if you don't want to. You just have to be aware that you're actually restarting another story. And so you got to pull out all the stops again. And the other thing I wanted to pick up on Kathleen is, yeah, the where Anika has lied on the form in the tattoo parlour. This is now a setup. So it needs to pay off somewhere, because we're expecting it to pop up later in the book. And it might, in my totally, and, but I'm just flagging it for yes, for Tasha, but for everyone, to be mindful of setups or things that look like setups, because your reader's going to start tracking them. And if it's not coming and the answer's not coming and the answer's not coming, it really takes their mind away from the story. Even other, they might not even be conscious. They aware of why they're losing interest in the story. And if you want to find out more about this, I'm going to recommend it again. Lisa Cron's wired for story. That is a book that needs to be out on your writer's desk all of the time reading it, rereading

51:15it, studying it, because it's that important. It is that important. Okay. Kathleen, your final bit of advice for Tasha about her novel and her career package. Yeah. And quickly just on Lisa Cron, I think she's fabulous. She's also a fabulous presenter. I talk about her all the time, and I have wired for story and story genius, and they are, you know, there are multiple tabs of little sticky notes that are marking my pages, because I don't really like writing on my pages, but in some of my craft books, I do, but that's a way around it all right and out, and I'll put a sticky note in, and then I can just turn to it. And those are my books. I use them all the time, and I recommend them all the time. Yeah, but in terms of this query, just make sure that the plot paragraphs give us all the details that we need to get a full picture or an understanding of the plot and where it's headed. I mean, obviously something is working, right? Because we were both

52:17like, yep, I'm hooked, I'd like to read the pages. But I think, you know, I think the more details you can add the better, just to reduce any possibility that there's any confusion or anything like that for agents. And then for the pages, yeah, there's so much to like about these pages. So it's hard to just kind of pick one or two things to focus on, but yeah, I think focusing, giving a little bit more focus on Anacas Gual, and making sure that something is happening in Tamson's first scene as well. But yeah, here right, Valerie, there has to be like, it's two different stories within one story, right? You have character A, character B, they all have to have their own, or they both have to have their own personality and character development,

53:18and they're inciting incident and goals, conflict stakes, all of that stuff, but it has to like match up and intermingle somehow. So yeah, just making sure that both first chapters are starting like her first chapter so that you're hooking them for both characters. And for my part, Tasha, I just kind of recommend that you go and get cruelty free by Carolyn Glenn and take a look at the open scene there. Even though the main character isn't hugely physically active, I mean, she's sitting on a plane talking to a stranger, that's the physical activity there. There is palpable tension within her. Now, the act of talking to this guide, this young, young actor, is, and he's telling her how much she adores her because the main character was an actress and has out of the business for a long time, and she's now returning to Los Angeles. This is creating huge amounts of tension within the main character. We're not entirely sure why.

54:24It is planting all kinds of seeds, plot seeds, you know, that'll, for plot events that'll come up later. It's really making us curious to know more about this main character and what her story is. And just, for me, it just compelled me to keep reading. There is tension there. Undeniably, there's tension, yet it's still a, it's still kind of a quiet scene, right? So the scene doesn't have to start with a big car crash or an explosion, unless it makes sense for your story, because it, for some novels and some stories, that's exactly the right place to start. So my point is that a story can start with a quieter scene in terms of the physical action, but it still needs to have that tension in and something like that might work for this book. Anyway, just, just have a look at it and, and just try it and see how it feels and see what you can do with it.

55:29Okay, so that wraps it for this week. Special thanks to Tasha Tinsley for sharing her work and giving us all a chance to learn. If you want us to review your query letter at first 10 pages writing sample, go to storyner.ca for all the details about how to submit. To support the show, please leave us a rating and review and tell your writer friends about us. And if you're watching on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe. If you need help writing the plot paragraphs for your query letter, check out the hook formula at learn.storyner.ca and to find out about my agent wish list or what services I offer as an editor, visit cafflingboxagit.com and foxeditorial.com and that's Fox with two X's and just subscribe to my newsletter that helps navigate to writing, querying and the publishing landscape in general and to literary cats keynotes on substack. And remember story theory does not have to be difficult to tool to help you write more, not less, so take it one step at a time and have fun.