The last piece of the puzzle

0:00Hello everybody, welcome back to Geek Warning, the cycling tech focus podcast from Escape Collective. I'm Dave Roam, this week we're back in the UK time zone, so hello, Siby Lopinan, how you doing? I'm doing well. And hello, Alex Hunt, how are you doing? I'm back in the UK time zone. You are. Maybe it might just be a figment of your own weary imagination. I don't trust it yet, but it looks like a UK. Yeah, I should say we've got a very jet lag to Alex joining us. He's just off of, what was it like three weeks straight of around the world traveling where you've been around? Yeah, you've been places. Well, I was home for two days after the members summit, so I kind of just included that and with that, it's like five and a bit weeks of mixed in. Moving times, I think the longest I've been in a time zone in the last five weeks is five days. Okay.

1:00If you don't have lounge access after all of this, then something has gone horribly wrong. But, and Siby, you've also been traveling around, perhaps not quite full laps of the world since Japan, but where were you just recently? I was in Spain in Corona. Nice. Over the weekend, so a lot closer than Alex was. Yeah. See how to classic for you and for Alex, you're in the US for the soldier hollow or cup round for the cross country. So, and yeah, both of those events are going to feed into pretty much the entire conversation today, which is lots of things happening, but I think big wheels continue to dominate the headlines in the tech world for cycling, both in mountain bike and gravel. So I think we're going to talk a bit about that. We're also going to talk a bit about industry news and then we're going to ask a wrench at the end of this episode. But, yeah, let's get into it. Alex, first off the rank, you had a very busy week in the US and you saw. I did.

2:01I think the safe to say 32-inch wheels dominated the headlines. I think so. I think soldier hollow did a very good job of trying to get the headlines in new venue, but yeah, when Trek and Scott both bring out what look like pretty finished versions of 30-inch post types and rock shocks brings out their fork of that event. This can be very hard to top that news. I think it's like, it shouldn't surprise too many people, but I think we've seen a lot of brands coming out with 32s, a lot of smaller brands coming out with them. But I think it's safe to say that no one has been doing it or testing it or experimenting as long as probably Trek and Scott have based on what we know. Definitely. From what we know, definitely Trek. Trek, you can even have this for a while. I think that part comes back to some of their trekking bikes have used 32 for a while. So it's not necessarily a brand new standard to them. It's a brand new performance standard, but the wheel sizes at least existed in their portfolio

3:01for a little while. I think this is going to be the case of every big brand is they might not be the first to the party. Some of them might be the last to the party, but that doesn't mean that they haven't been the first to the development table. It's just that they are taking longer to refine it to bring the standard of product that you'd expect from the bigger brands before releasing something. Yeah. So I think a lot of what has made this possible for Trek and Scott and perhaps what they both were waiting on was a suitable fork. So what did we see on the weekend there? Yeah. I mean, up until now, I mean, we've seen the Fox 32 briefly with the Ventima Leadville with the Q factory team at the Jay. And not confusing at all, but it's actually a Fox 3432. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Just to get the model right. Yeah. But until then, it's kind of been if you want to have a semi performance based fork,

4:03you've had to use intense samurai, which is from a German brand, they can run the flight attendant damper. So it kind of emulates a rock short talk. But yeah, for a long time, there hasn't been an actual fork from Trump or Rockshox, which is part, it's kind of the issue for both Scott and Trek is they are full tram teams. You know, they run the group, so they run the fork, they run the shock. So yeah, I think both of these launches coming at the same weekend heavily suggests that Rockshox with the hold up. I mean, no one from Rockshox is saying anything about the fork. But yeah, I think it's fair to say that if two brands go live with what look like very, very finished post types at the same weekend, both running the same component, it's probably back component that has been pausing the release. Yeah, sure. Okay. All right. Well, I think for me, I was, this is going to come across a little bit snarky, but I was relieved to see the 32s didn't just dominate the results.

5:07I was, yeah, I wouldn't say I was jumping for joy that 29 is one, but I was, I did take a big, a big sigh of relief knowing that's not everyone's going to run out and buy the thing that just won the World Cup convincingly. Yeah, I mean, 29 is still strong in the field by looks of it. 29 is still strong and, you know, I think this is going to be, you know, it's going to be the conversation that happens for a little while. I haven't run the 32 yet to comment, but even if it is an advantage, it's not going to be an advantage over having better legs. So, you know, I think for the most part of a stronger rider, regardless of 29 or 32 is still going to win races, the ease at which they might tackle certain sections of the course might change. But I would also say that 32 probably had the best weekend yet in World Cup. You know, Gwendolyn Gibson achieved a career best second place on the 32 inch prototype. So partly that was probably home crowd advantage, you know, the crowds were insane.

6:09And if you haven't seen that going, check out the gallery that kind of tries to show at least what the crowds were like. But also I think that soldier hollow probably was a good course for 32. It was fairly fast. Even the rock gardens were tackled at speed. And there were some rock rolls and things that I just think the big will was the angle of attack might have helped with. They certainly didn't hold anyone back on the track team, you know, I think Evie was also in the top 10, Riley was in the top 10 or thereabouts in the men's race. Scott had a bit more unlock, Philippo punctured in the final lap, which normally I wouldn't read too much into that, but it very much wasn't a technical course. So how or where the puncture came from might be something to look into with with Maxis, but yeah, I think it's probably the best show in 32s, I've had a world cup across the board because he yeah, the only other one that comes to mind where they look to be

7:10promised was the Thomas, the lens of Heider, where Alice Andre Keller came third in a short track. But then both Alice Andre and Maxis working at have disastrous exos. So yeah, I mean amongst all these results, we have seen 32 as a Cape Epic. We saw one recently written to win the marathon world championship. And do I see what this suddenly signs of things brewing here? I guess before we move on to see all the Europe where with those signs of things brewing we've been clearer, Alex, are there any other tech related thoughts that are following you off the back of of you, sir? I just finished on the 32 thing, just people on the ground. I would say at the minute we're very much at a 50 50 split in terms of people who want this and people who don't. There's lots of people that are very local that 32 should should not come into the sport, but it's not needed for 29s to do everything just fine.

8:12We don't need we don't need to do anything else. And then we're half half people I spoke to at Soldier Hollow are asking when they can get their hands on a bike. If there was any demos, they could do that with a canter to ride a 32. And there's definitely curiosity whether it's going to be right for everyone. I think essentially even Gwendolyn answered whether 32 can work for shorter riders. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of appeal in the new standard to a lot of people. So it's exciting. And I think that's all brands can hope for at the minute is that there is some excitement and some intrigue around around a new standard. Can I offer a stupid perspective on this, which I don't think you'll be able to answer, but the same people saying that 50 50 split of like people excited for it and people that are very happy with what they currently have. Would you say it's the same sort of person where the person after the 32 probably has a like an electric mini pump in their bag or is the person after the 29 has a is still

9:14in manual or mechanical thing, but electronic is it that sort of to make a kind of sweeping comment would be. Yeah, but yes, yes. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And I think there's absolutely strong valid arguments to to being anti this, but yeah, at the same time from a racing point of view, I guess progress is progress if the rules allow it. So all right, speaking of progress, so you were in Spain, Gerona for see or the Europe, first time at the event first time bigger than anticipated. Yes, I feel that spin trend when I've gone to trade shows industry shows that I have not about has available is in January as well as same thing. I was like, Oh, it's it's bigger than I thought. Do you have any, do you have any idea of like the scale of see or the Europe these days, like how many exhibits might have been there or how many people it was.

10:17It was over 500 brands exhibiting there and 80,000 participants visitors. 80, 80, 80,000. Whoa. Okay. All right. That is many, many people. It's a lot. And comparing to see us a classic in California, which is obviously one of the biggest that's 70,000 this year. So there were even more participants here. And obviously there's a lot of raising going on. There's the UCI World Series stage in at the same time over the weekend. There's some mountain bike racing. So and then the sport is quite a big one on the Sunday. So a lot of those participants obviously the same as see or the classic. You were like, well, I don't think all of them were there just to hang out and look at the products. Yes, they're not there. They also account all the participants in the races. But that said a lot of those race participants there also hanging about at the Expo. And it was literally like being sardines and attend.

11:17It was impossible to move forward at bits and also just to even see some of the stands wanting to go say hello to someone. And you can see that the whole stand is just full of people. It's you're going to just stand there awkwardly being hello. I want to talk to you as well. Yeah. It was good to see though. What were some of those brands that were sort of swamped? Like is a I'm keen to hear what what product categories or brands are having the most interest. The ones to do the best freebies. Interesting. Okay. No, I did. All right. That checks out for a. I don't know if that's fully, fully true. But there's certainly like they also see or say they would sell products as well. So consumers could buy, for example, a pile. There were lots and lots of the pile brands and these have had huge boots, which maybe for me was a little bit kind of surprising that like Santini, Gobek, but there was a lot

12:17of brands that I wouldn't necessarily even know about more kind of European. There were really, really big stands, lots of products on show. They were quite busy. Megamall, I would say off all the stands today. So it was probably the busiest. And I think maybe part of that was just they had a big space. They were in a good spot where everyone pretty much passed. And they went on till late in the evening because by the time I was exhausted, they were just getting the party started with their DJs. The cold drinks are just coming out. So exactly. The brand, like it's not a brand that I was super familiar with prior to the weekend's past, but they suddenly made a bit of a splash with quite a few, I mean, with at least one 32 I saw, but what else did they have there? What else than 32? There's a lot of bikes. Bikes. And other bikes, yeah. I mean, they had every possible bike at their stand. But the main attraction was the 32.

13:19They had both mountain bike and a gravel bike and both looked really quite ready. Which like Alex was saying, if there's, yes, mountain bikes have been waiting for the forks. And now also just what we've seen in the previous trade shows this year or cycling shows, all the frames as well have maybe been prototypes, whereas these ones started to really look like they're going to hit the market quite soon. And there was one brand as well, Avona, who had a launch date for their bike. So they had a gravel bike on show, 32 wheeled. And that's going to come out in about three weeks time. Oh well. It's an actual launch date. So that was the big trend. Am I right and think you actually managed to ride that Avona? I did. You did. And how does a person under five foot eight go on a 32? It was, it was not as bad as I expected. Okay.

14:19All right. So it's like the first time riding a medium as well. Oh, no, no. There's been plenty of press trips where I've been on a medium one, not plenty, but I have definitely ridden a medium before. But this was the best fitting medium bike that I have ridden. I must say that if you, yeah, I'm going to write more in depth about this experience on that bike. But yeah, I'm just going to say that I did not hate it in fact, I actually enjoyed it. Wow. Okay. All right. We're all doomed. And yeah. So no, I mean, any any argument of 32 is only being possible for for people of a certain height. I think we're going to increasingly see brands proving that wrong. Just as you know that that same argument was made back when 29ers were introduced and a lot of brands stuck for a while with the 27.5 inch wheels for smaller frame sizes. And you know, if you look at where the market is today, those, those smaller wheels are

15:24not commonly found in a lot of, a lot of size ranges. So I, I really anticipate will go similar on a similar path on with it. So it is interesting to hear that you mentioned right one, even if the, the size was an ideal that you were comfortable on it. So yeah, there's a lot, a lot to talk about the geometry. And I find this is very interesting like how to fit the big wheels onto the frame, the frame almost has to shrink. And it's really interesting to also see there's very few bikes that have actual geometry charts available. But when you get to see them and compare a little bit how brands are approaching it. And the same as 700 see this is what I'm going to say about it is that I struggle with the level of 700 sea bikes. Like the first question, everyone would ask me obviously is how was it to write it, but also how big bad is the tour of love. And I'm like, I wrote a 700 sea bike the day before and the tour of love on that bike was horrible. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think it's necessarily the first worry that you have to have about 32.

16:25It's everything comes as a package and you need to look at that and not just the wheel size. It's, it's not going to be the defining thing. So you're not worried that small size 32 is rather than talking about to overlap, we'll be talking about crank arm overlap. Yeah. It could be on certain bikes. I mean, it will be like that. It's just completely depends on the on the German trip the bike. Okay. All right. So yeah, we had some brands like a, yeah, a Vona is, I guess the background on that brand. Alex, you've covered that previously of who that brand or who's behind that brand. I believe it's, it's founders who are now blanking that I mean, they once upon time were BMC, but more recently they were, which brand? Arcate. Arcate. That's the one. Yeah. So yeah, they, you know, they've got some history in the industry and, you know, Vona's the latest endeavor from them. That's an interesting brand to watch. Megamo, very Spanish, not something we see in our markets too much, but maybe that'll

17:25change. I was surprised by the amount of coverage that they had in sort of traditional Western cycling media. You know, you will see a couple around where I ride now. I do. I'm very, the revoix is popping up. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. So there you go. Yeah. But any other brands that you came across or chat with Suvi that are sort of going in a similar path or, or feeling, yeah, what was the sentiment out there? There were, there were quite a few brands that I didn't even get to chat to for the reason today was quite a busy show and I did not get time with 500 brands. And storm had a bike. I did not get to chat about that one. Actually, I kept passing it and then the bike wasn't there when I next passed this hand because people were like you were talking. People are really keen to also get riding these bikes. So yeah, just they were, they were hot commodity amongst press and regular riders to get to get a run on the bikes. Various. So another Spanish brand, they had a prototype that they've been prototyping for a good

18:30while now. They still had a steel prototype, but they're going to go into carbon as well for the final frame. And others, well, KTM was there. So then moving into mountain bike side, obviously they had the Andrea Sewold, like their Andreas was also at the stand at one point what has rainbow jersey on. So yeah, it was on the mountain bike side. There's probably even more that I didn't even see. And like dirty six or who's a brand who's been probably doing 32 well before anyone else even thought about it. They were also there with their bikes. So yeah, big wheels I think was the main talking point. Yeah, so I mean talking of that KTM that you saw, so I think that had some parallel tires on it, which signals the entry of parallel and I think Alex, you perhaps saw those same tires. I think we forgot to mention them earlier, but yeah, Pirelli's also entered the space alongside

19:30what Maxis and Schwold. And I feel like I'm forgetting one other. But Victoria? Victoria, there you go. So yeah, I'd say the key players of all the key modern players have all entered the space, which is no small detail, I think. No, what was very interesting for me in South of Hollywood, it was changed for race day. Everyone on the team was on the scorpions race day, but in the pits on Thursday for the first practice session, Evie Rich's bike was fitted with aspirants, which is of course not a Pirelli tire. So I wonder if that was just to do some comparisons because the scorpions not necessarily the fastest rolling tire on the market. Pire is interesting just to see that Maxis tire was fitted to the track teams bike during practice. Yeah, very interesting. So yeah, so we've got, I mean, that's for me the biggest indication that this 32

20:31a thing isn't a fad, right? Is the fact that we have, I mean, rock shock's making a fork is no small deal. I think that's like, that's a casting being made. That's not a small expense. But yeah, having the molds made for the larger wheels, pretty significant detail, I think. And we've seen Maxis's commitment with multiple models already available. Like you can just about buy them, I think in most countries already. And if you can't, you can at least pre-order them now. And then yeah, I think Schwalb has showed their commitment, but hasn't quite released all the ties yet. And I think, yeah, Schwalb, actually, there were an interesting one because they announced last week, I think in connection to see author, they released the gravel tires that they were already teasing in January, February, earlier this year. But then again, consumer availability is from April next year. So while you can potentially buy bikes from next month, that would come with the

21:32tires. So OEM would get manufacturers would get these tires. If you slash it badly when you're riding that said bike, I don't know where you're going to get your replacement tire from. So it's an interesting one. I hate that so much. We've seen that a few times now. We've seen that with the Scott Attic that you reviewed, the Attic Darsie Review, you had some early release Schwalb the tires on that that, speaking of slashing tires. And like those didn't, are they even available yet? Did they ever come? I haven't seen them yet. Yeah, I don't think they ever made it. Yeah, and I had like some Vittoria, like the 42 mil courses on the Sivella Asperro that everyone was like, the bike's interesting. But if you're not using those tires, it'd be pretty keen to take those tires off you. And it's like, yeah, it's just crazy. Those tires are now out. But I think it took about nine months or something. It's when the bikes release and the tires release. So not a trend I love to be honest.

22:33Yeah. But anyway. All right. There you go. Four big brands making tires that to me suggest that this is very much going to be a thing that just continues to build up steam and isn't going away. So sorry to all those that don't want to hear about it. But there we have it. All right. Let's move away from the big world chat. And Sivella, I think some of the questions, so you're walking around Seattle with a microphone and hand interviewing a bunch of industry people about. I mean, yeah, tell us what were you talking about? I was trying to get a bit of an idea of how people are feeling about the industry at the moment, just because treacherous are where there's a lot of people that you can stick a mic at and ask, how do you feel from your brand's perspective and get many different opinions. See you also, Europe was specifically interesting because it is quite a regional show still. They had more and more like a seven about 80,000 people coming and they had more international

23:34presence, but it still had very strong representation of the kind of southern Europeans of France, Spain, Italy, those markets. And the people at the stands were also maybe area managers for that area or those regions. So it was quite interesting to get their perspective. And I asked them about 32 obviously. We'd also talked about the general how the market is doing, what's what more of the challenges. And one of those things was also Chinese brands and the entry of those. And that one thing that was really interesting was that quite, it's maybe when we think about Italian brands, especially we think of them quite conservative and traditionalist. But then even the Spanish brands, they were saying that they don't really see Chinese brands at the retailers yet and that they don't necessarily see them as big of a challenge. Many said yes, it's great that there's more competition. It's just that whether it's a Chinese brand or a French brand, we have to just treat them

24:36as another competitor in the market and find ways to compete. So I find that it was quite an interesting difference in how they talked about it, maybe less worried almost than how things are in the US. But I also wonder if it's just that those bikes haven't come to the shops yet because in the US, yes, I've heard plenty of people who say that they've walked to their local shop and there's a specialist and there's an X-Lap next to each other and the X-Lap's half the price. But to someone who's not necessarily too into bikes, the two look the same. So yeah. Yeah, I think it's certainly happening in Australia as well, that trend of Chinese brands entering in a really strong appealing way, I guess, just selling largely on price, but with what seems to be a pretty strong product. But yeah, it's interesting to say that the European market isn't as fearful of that. I guess it's part of me wonders whether like EU laws give some protection to them based

25:38on that. Like there's the anti-dumping laws and similar. Part of me just wonders if maybe it is just a more traditional market that only buys brands that, you know, a local and known. I don't know. Did you get any sentiment on what's driving that sort of confidence? I think it was the answers that I got were definitely not related to that anti-dumping. I think that's at the moment at least more focused on the e-bike side of things because that's been obviously a big, big flood of those into EU and a challenge for the local brand. But I think the sentiment that I got is just that those, like, especially the southern European markets, they're just less curious about these brands. And I think Alex, I don't know about you, but in the UK as well, it's, yeah, you just start to see some windspace bikes out there. But when you walk to shops, it's very rare to still find any of these. And I think even talking with people at shops, I don't think there's necessarily, like,

26:42yeah, we're going to start stocking all we're really curious about these brands. It's just, they're sticking with brands that have a stronger heritage, I think, still. Yeah. What's interesting to me is this might not resonate with many people listening, but when you go to a show like Eurobike, it really stands out like how big the European market is and how insular some of the European market is. There's just holes and holes of brands you just do not see outside of Europe. It's a very, very, very competitive market with a lot of brands that just don't make it outside of like their home country or the local region. And so, yeah, maybe there's just not that much space to enter as well. Yeah, it's, chockers is what we'd say in a show. But yeah, I guess with that, so, if you should we throw to some interviews that you did from on the ground? Yeah, we'll hear from some of the people that I talked to and a little bit of a perspective

27:46pulse check, as I'd like to say. Yeah, of what the people thought about the industry and Chinese brands. It's one day and the brand marketing manager focused for the Spanish market. So, how would you describe the cycling market at a moment? chaotic. Yeah. I'd say chaotic, you know, I'd say we don't really understand how, you know, the consumer is behaving, let's say. We have many, many up and downs. I think at some point, at some point we are still, you know, recovering a little bit of all the, you know, bike boom we had after the pandemic. At the same time, I think that we are also ending this bike boost, you know, and we are starting to see this light at the end of the tunnel, as we usually say.

28:49But in all the product launches we are seeing from all the brands of the related brands are helping also to that. So it's true that the consumer attention is highly fragmented right now, I would say. Many choices, there's more and more brands offering very good stuff. Nice price points as well and the competitiveness has increased a lot. So that's also one of the reasons why it's so chaotic and why the attention is so fragmented as I was saying, because there's many, many options to choose right now, which is good, I think for the industry it keeps the things alive, let's say. And it's good. So but I would say that it's difficult to understand, you know, or to plan for winning, let's say. So you really need to think twice before acting.

29:49And also the retailer for the brands, I think they are becoming more and more important. You mean the stores? In the stores? Yeah, we also come from a big period of high discounts, you know. People have bought many, many bikes lately during the last two, three, four years, which is nice at group prices of course, because of the stock of bikes we all had in our warehouses. And that also means that we are not renewing bikes every year or even over three years. And it's a unique, we really need to think twice before on how do you want to position your product, which specs, which price point at the same time there's many new technology coming, new trends as well, even new disciplines I would say now with the 32 inches and so on, it's a completely new sport. And yeah, we need to adapt and be quick but at the same time act wisely. Yeah, it sounds very complicated. But that's also interesting.

30:50It keeps us very motivated and trying to understand everything and to put solutions. When you look at the broader industry then, like you talked about all the challenges that focus has faced and one thing that you didn't mention is the rights of, well you didn't mention that there's a lot more competitors and one competitor, the big one, is Asian brand Chinese brand is coming into the market. And especially in the mountain bike space, it's been Avinox, Amplow and then road bike side, it's X-Lab, XES coming in. So how has that influenced how the last year has been for you and how do you approach that challenge that they post to you? So in addition to everything I already mentioned, there's also a disaster on topic of course, which makes things even more difficult. But at the same time I think it's good for the industry because it stimulates the thinking

31:52and trying to think out of the box and as I was saying to stay more competitive and to find the perfect spot for you, let's say. So there's always a chance I think to win. Of course especially for us, we are mainly an imont and a mountain bike company, let's say we have a very good lineup in electric mountain bikes and it's been a very difficult period for us, it's still because as you know there's a big big hype related to Avinox and Amplow and so on. I think that Bosch has also also did a very good fantastic job, maybe to try to close that gap between them with many software updates and so on. I also think and that's also something that I have double checked with many dealers that there's a, as you said, big issues demand, let's say somehow.

32:56I think that they've done a fantastic job also in marketing, I mean on the Amplow people working in the brand department let's say the demand was apparently super high but I also see a lot of stuff in the stock, you know, of Avinox products. So that also means I think that there was a fictitious demand and that we probably also affect the end of this season. Of course we will have to face this problem in the upcoming months and years but I think it's a positive sign in general, you know, having these competitiveness and it's also something that we are also seeing in all the industries like the car industry or the motorbike industry. Deeply calmer brands from always, let's say like Volkswagen, talking from a German brand, after all, something from doing things differently if they want to still be, keeping competitive

33:58in the market. So, yeah, yeah. What about on the roadside, how much does that influence there? Because I did notice you've got your new Atlas which is a very competitively priced and you've always had good value bikes as well but this year I feel there's been more and more brands that have dropped their prices. Yes. Do you think it is a little bit of a reaction to the fact that there's this value, a value oriented brands coming from China? Probably, I cannot say that there's a direct connection to be honest, I don't know, it seems that it's like that. Of course, there are also other European brands that drop their prices a lot and that make others have to react to that. It's true that we are still having to see more and more Chinese brands that say working the drop-bar category but it's not that strong right now as the Imolte and Bike. So, it's something that it will become strong. It seems that it will become strong. Stronger, sorry than how it is today. It's not right now, it's not that right now.

34:59It's not affecting that much. There are also, I think, doing great things that we've seen XDS, you know, the UCI peloton. There's already positioned in very well the brand. It's true that we are not seeing too many brands on the floor. Let's say on bike shops, I think this is something also they need to work. The retail part, they are very good developing products. It's something that they have already come to. They are really good developing marketing. It's something they have shown and proven. But I think they are still missing the face to face and the commercial part of it. And it's very, very important. It's crucial, as I was saying, at the beginning of the interview. Is there anything else that you'd like to add? Anything that you think, if someone's not in the cycling industry, something that they don't really know about it at the moment, what's happening behind the curtain? You had the curtain well, well, it's not any more behind the curtain, the 32 inches.

36:03It's here, it's a reality already. I think it's very positive to have this. You think it's positive? I think it's positive because in the end, we are giving more choices to the consumer. In the end, they have the last word. If it's something that we'll not, let's say, make a difference, we will stop producing that. It already happened in the past with fat bikes and so on. We are just giving more options. And I think it's good. Probably, it has a sense for one or two disciplines, let's say, or categories and it doesn't have any sense for others. The market we decide, that's a very positive thing, I think, from our industry. So we provide, but they decide. I think it's also fair in the end because it doesn't seem like we are pushing marketing and things and we have to sell it because it's in the end. Everything, 32 inches comes with mountain bikes double, a full suspension mountain bikes which was a category which was a little bit stuck, let's say, lately.

37:08And I think we, the industry had to think of something different to reactivate this. Yeah. And this is good. So if you really think about it, that means that there's people behind trying to know of the different things and stimulate again the category which is very important, especially here in the south of Europe, like, we had this racing spirit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some are arguing the opposite about 32, that it's the industry is just trying to sell more products and just come up with a new standard that's going to complicate things. Of course, and it's also fair. And that's a discussion between two different guys having different opinions. In the end, if the product I think it will be well developed, good quality, product and so on. But in the end, if the consumer doesn't want to buy it or it's not, you know, high enough convinced, let's say, he will not buy it or she will not buy it.

38:09They will, they will, you know, in the end dictate how the 32 thing will, will go. And the editorias, you're very a bike. Okay. What do you think is the most important that you've succeeded for 15 years? What do you think is the most important thing for cycling company to do? I think you need to be very clear. You need to give value to the consumer and consumer of the customer in terms of B2B. Yeah. Also in the consumer, you need to find the right product, right condition and also service is very important. You need to follow the dealer with the sales, with training, try also always to understand the right trend on the market. When I explain the bicycle in Guestia, explain is a need between automotive and fashion.

39:14Because it's very important to understand the right trend, the right needs what they are looking then consumer and try to put in your product. I think this is one of the successful we have in our company, we are fast, change to adapt the product to the market. And I think this is one of the strongest points we have in the company. Yeah. So it's to stay agile, to be able to react. Yeah. Yeah. I think this moment is very important to be fast for that, to be trying to change of the market. And yeah, I think this one, I'll keep on. So a big thing for in the last six years, I guess, was Covid, the Covid kind of bubble and then after that, whatever happened. And we're still talking about that. Every interview I've done, whereas how we do describe the industry right now, it always goes to, well, we're recovering from Covid.

40:16And I find it quite interesting that it's still there. Yeah, from this year, we also, almost last year, after we started the sales team, we don't talk about the market debate or problem of the market. It's not any topic in the company. It's like the market is, as we have done, we need to really be better, improve and try to give better value and service to the customer. Of course, the market after this year was incredibly successful, 2021, and the two in terms of sales was very good. And after the post Covid was a bigger shock on the market. But I think this year is a year we can say we finalize this adjustment post Covid. Anything we start a new year. Of course, it's not like now the market is perfect, because it's not perfect.

41:19But I think the big problem of the market was the overstock from the brand, the big discount. In this situation, I think we feel is much more clean, much more stable. After happens situation like Axel Group or all the situation, maybe they put again some product on the market with the discount. But we feel it's start to be clean. In our case, also our inventory level, we have a very good level of inventory. Then we are okay in this term. This is one thing. The other thing is change the industry in the last few years. Then inventory problems start to be stable. But what's we see different points, but we have a little bit of concentration about shops, some shop they close, the consumer also is changed. The way to do marketing also needs to change and consumer. And this is very important to understand the new era, to adapt very well to the distributor,

42:25but also be focused like a brand to the end consumer, to try to drive traffic, try leads to the dealer. I think now, of course, you need to have the right communication, but you need to connect to the end consumer, try to have a direct, how to say, dialogue. And you will call ecosystem. Then when we need to be able to put people to our web page, to our, and after they can make tests, ask a quotation for the bicycle. And we drive these leads to the network. Then we help the network to, we try to go to take the customer and help the customer and the shops to offer these leads. I think that is something new. We have lot in the digital strategy to do this.

43:25I think we need to help to drive traffic to the dealer. So that's so important. Yeah. So do you think it's, it's increasingly important that you have the physical presence in the shops and I think it is important, but also in terms of communication, online activity, we need to drive a thing out there, the ecosystem of line online. You may be people discover your brain in the digital way, receive more information, but after go to the dealer, to check the bicycle, to test the bicycle, and maybe is the people in the shop they come back. Then I think this is the strategy, you need to be very close to the dealer, but you need to do more like a brand. Not just communication, but try to integrate better with our dealer and, and maybe this kind of situation. Yeah. This is the challenge I think for us. Why do you think that you mentioned that bike shops have been, that there's been closures and that there's been concentration there?

44:27Why do you think that is? I think biggest player, they are more professional. These are mostly many, many situations. A bicycle shop is a people, they love bicycle, cycling and create this own, own job. Maybe one people, but maybe they need more professional management. Some people they just don't take a very clear strategy, just open the door and wait for customer. The people they really want to go to take the customer, they are more professional, they are better manager. I think we see the shops go very well. For example now it's very important, create a community. Then the people, they create community, create social rights groups, try to put the people in the gravel to help and make easy for this covered gravel. All the shops, they work to connect to the end consumer and try to drive to the shops.

45:33I think they work very well. The people they just wait for customer is critical. It's not. Yeah. Also we see, for example in Spain, you see after Covid, I think the people are very, I don't know to say in English, but not motivate a very tired I think. Then it's like they don't want to be so active to create business and also because we have some years, they have sales but don't have good margin, good profit, they work a lot and they're margin then. They are not very motivated. Also these people in Spain mainly are 50, more than 55, 60, then it's very close to retire by don't take the second generation to run. Something is like they are looking for just close the shop or sell the shop.

46:34They are so situation we see and at the same time we see some, some dealer, they have a free shop for shop they're freezing and they are more successful. What about the disruptors in the industry? How have they impacted you or if they haven't impacted you, how do you think they will Chinese brands, for example, coming into the industry, has that had any impact on you? For me, it's another competitor model. Now it's a little bit the trend about the Chinese brand in the automotive. Because you mentioned earlier the car industry. At the end I think they need to offer the right quality, the right quality, the need to work very well. Price is one of the points but it's also the service related. Anything you need to understand also the market. Right now of course it's like another competitor's model, it's not like Chinese brand but they

47:35are good, bad and but it's one more. Of course we need to take it. I think my feeling is in the Y-bike, they can be stronger in the normal bike. I think it's different culture of the people they want more. It looks more about European brand or American brand. Brand they are really related to cycling, to the competition, the early task. But in the bike I think they can do better work in the next year. I think it's not critical I want the Chinese but of course it's another competitor. Did you expect it to happen that X-Lab comes to the market as strong as they seemingly have? X-Lab is strong and nice but I never see one bicycle in the market right now.

48:38I think this is an interesting one because we have a strong audience in the US. I think the US people have a lot more because obviously X-Lab has established a deal in it and work there. They see X-Lams and there's some shops that have said that they don't stock specialized anymore. They rather stock X-Lab because they have a better margin and people will buy more bikes because they're cheaper. So they end up with... In Europe I don't see. Yeah, in China. Maybe if they do in the US they can do here. Yeah, but I think we need to be competitive. The brand is a big challenge. They are also European brand very competitive, very good with the right products. It's another more. Then it's like when you are in the racing. It doesn't matter if it's Italian, French, the strongest win. Then it's competition, this market is competition.

49:39All right, well we're back, Suvi. Thank you very much for all the interviews and I think you've got plans to do more with more of those interviews because you had multiple outwears of chats, I think, save. So a written piece coming if we're not mistaken. Yes, yeah. I'm going to put together a written piece to compile all those chats into one place and draw those bigger themes that came up into it. But yeah, many voices were very lost after the weekend. I was thinking probably here for my time. Yes, yes. They're all the chats too. Yes, absolutely. I guess speaking of written pieces, it was a very busy weekend. Suvi had some galleries go up from Seattle sort of rounding up. Some of the things we spoke about and some of the things we didn't speak about, definitely check that out. Alex, you had too many pieces to count. But yeah, for anyone that wants to see the new bikes from Scott or Trek or the fork

50:42or anything else we spoke about, I think you had galleries on that. Plus a very cool post-race race gallery with the help of our former tech editor, Josh Weinberg, if I'm not mistaken. Correct. And very cool videos on Instagram as well. Thank you. You did some good slow mo. I think yeah, you had some really good insights into how those bikes were working out there. That's cool to see. So anyway, plenty to catch up on if you want more than just the podcast and on that, there's still more to come, which is Oscar Ench. So for those on our member only feed, keep listening because we have the return of Oscar Ench. We've had a few weeks away, but Zach Edwards joins me and we answer some member questions. So stay tuned for that. And for those not on our member feed, then I don't know what you're doing, but please join the member feed. Join at escapecollective.com forward slash geek warning. And that gets you access to everything we do at escape collective, all our written pieces, all of our extra podcasts.

51:46It also just makes you feel good about supporting independent journalism. So please consider it. All right. So be Alex. Good to see you. Hope you recover. So be hope your voice returns. Alex. Hope your time clock resets. This makes it might be a few weeks before you understand before you're waking up at normal hours. So yeah, time is just a very novel when loose concept right now. Yes. Yes. All right. Well, good luck and good to see you. We'll catch you soon. So yes. See you.