The psychology of killing and its hidden costs

informed dissent the intersection of health care and politics with Dr. Jeff

Markey board certified primary care physician and Dr. Mark McDonald board

certified child adolescent and adult psychiatrist all right Mark another great

episode of informed dissent welcome hello so I am so excited to have our guest

on Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman give you a little background as many of you

know that are listening I was a school board member elected for 12 years

following that I founded a school board a school out here charter school out

here in Orange County Orange County Classical Academy I've been following

Colonel Grossman for many years he went around for a long time giving lectures

about school shootings and active shooters and how schools should prepare

themselves here in the United States so when I became a school

yeah it's great he's got these paper easels and he writes with two hands and

these big markers he's quite talented and so when I became a school board member

Los Alamedos one of the first things I wanted to do is try to keep our kids safe

now we are in a very affluent area in Los Alamedos and Seal Beach and Ross

Moore and so forth and our parents never assumed anything like this would

happen but from time to time we would hear about shootings at schools in affluent

areas like Columbine for example and hearing that we're like holy crap that could

happen here and what do we do to keep our school safe so I invited Colonel

Grossman to our school to give a presentation when I first did that the

school board member said oh hell no we don't want him there I don't want

somebody in scaring our kids talking about active shooters our superintendent was

even hesitant so it turns out that Colonel Grossman was speaking oh I don't

know 45 an hour away maybe it was Riverside or Anaheim I don't remember where

so I took a school board member to with me and our superintendent we went and

listened to him finally convinced them to have him

out to our school and he gave his presentation as a result of that

presentation we over the over a period of several years

instituted some policies that I think made our schools a lot safer

we created single points of entry in all schools

we required IDs of anybody entering the school in order to have them gain

campus we hired an SRO school resource officer basically a

police officer on our school campus very expensive by the way over

$200,000 a year because they're unions and they have to work certain hours

and all this kind of garbage we invited law enforcement on all 12 of our

campuses we created rooms in all our schools that allowed them to come on

campus sit and do computer work we created snacks

clean bathrooms and we encourage them to drive by come on our campuses meet

the kids and have a comfortable place where they could do schoolwork and then

the same happened at my charter school where we have a

armed security guard we call him a century he's got a really cute police dog

with him he's in uniform single points of entry in the same thing

and many of our parents are law enforcement so we invite them to be on campus to

be at all our events i remind all our police officer parents because they

don't know this they're taught differently that they are legally allowed

to carry concealed on a school campus you know because there's laws especially

in California that if you have a concealed carry permit like mark and i both do

despite that we're not allowed to carry on campus

but police officers are so those are some of the things i did

directly as a result of my hearing lectures from uh kernel

roastman reading some of his books one which is terrifying called terror at

bezlin about a russian uh this was in russia where bad guys got into a

school and killed lots and lots of people it's frightening

uh and it can happen anywhere if you're not prepared yeah so kernel

roastman what an honor to to have you on our podcast and and and speak with

you it's my pleasure i'm such a fan of what you guys

do and up to Jeff and then mark uh now you know it's funny so much of what you

talked about cost nothing you know bad guys watch the school random

comp visits cops is there uh you know off to the cops are there watching

their their families and their armed the thing about the informed

dissent in so many ways as you can never mention

the lives that were not lost you can never you can never measure

that the lives that were not destroyed uh by knowledge just

information just letting hey you know it's legal for you to carry and you're

welcome to and we want you to that's that's that's

informed dissent you know you're you're pushing it against it just

informing them that you can legally do this and you're kind of

dissenting against the the mob mentality oh oh on off to the cop where they're

going they're well well something bad oh no no nothing bad's going to happen

and it's a bad thing that didn't happen you can't measure i just i'm such a

huge fan of what you guys are doing now i have been tell us a little bit

about your military background and why you started this movement

to teach people about active shooters and how to prepare

and all the work you do and i i know you have a book i think that still is

required reading in the marine core

i i i have two books from marine core combatants required reading

on killing and on combat i i'm one of the very few people two books on the

combatants list i'll talk to you about that uh and and how this all ties in

to to my core theme which is recovering from trauma and post-traumatic

growth versus post-traumatic stress and this really ties in with the idea of

informed informed dissent this idea that

everybody's going to be broken by bad things

well no they don't know about post-traumatic growth

what doesn't kill me makes me stronger they stole that from the bible you know

so the story begins in 1976 private Grossman

82nd Airborne Division Vietnam veterans all around us

and we wanted to know what combat was going to be like what's it going to be

like to kill what's going to be like to be in combat

you know there's things that people don't know like

auditory exclusion tunnel vision slow motion time

the physiological reaction to take it a human life these

these are taboo topics and nobody would say what i realize now is

it's the the the active violence and in the intimacy of combat is very much

like sex it's a it's a taboo topic uh i wrote the book on killing came out in

1995 uh half-man copy sold in nine languages

required reading and uh you know just so fast forward

uh captain Grossman now West Point Psychology professor

is writing a book on the subject i ask about

what's happening in combat and i'll tell you

you know it's kind of like if somebody asks about your sex life you wouldn't

tell them but if medical study asks you you might tell them right

yeah so uh so i gathered this information and

and so many of these Vietnam veggies World War Two vets right

interim by the hundreds i'd present to their reunions and conduct these

interviews so many of them said i've never told anybody about this

there's like this burden that comes with that so why is this so taboo why is this

so taboo so my first book was on killing i thought

there was at the heart of combat was the act of taking a life killing but

what i found out was those that folded prepared themselves

killing's just not that big a deal i mean the World War Two generation they

weren't broken by what they had to do what i found out was what's at the core

event is what's in my book on combat if uh you crane book the year award you

churnian translation won the book the year award and uh

you know i'll be 70 in august i spent the summer of uh

24 in Ukraine uh i spent a summer vacation in the warzone

craning their troops it wanted book the year award

and uh and what's really important is how the mind of body responds to stress

sympathetic nervous system rouse old phasal constriction

and uh in the fair sympathetic backlash uh in it the fact that in combat

you don't hear the shots but every hunter i wrote the book

on hunting you can't understand combat or killing until you understand

hunting and the role that plays in who we are

and and hunters will tell you you pull the trigger

and you don't hear the shot and your ears don't ring now you are still

getting hearing loss the shutouts in the auditorium nerve where he

unpredictable you on but if you ask a hunter yeah i don't hear the shot but

nobody talked about it they only been their little silo

nobody said hey you know i didn't hear the shot and i didn't feel the

recoil well the same thing happens in combat

only only when you're killing that only in combat and hunting

did these neurons kick in with auditory exclusion tunnel vision slow motion time

and and it needs every dish and definition of the psychotic episode memory gaps

memory distortions if you sat here right now and had these responses

boom tunnel vision auditory exclusion slow motion time memory gaps

it needs every definition of the psychotic episode

just those things by themselves let's get the daylight out of here the fact that

somebody's trying to kill you is bad enough without your body doing weird

and one of the things nobody told you about

but if you're told ahead of time these things are going to happen then it's

no big deal but here's the kicker

you're uh uh uh uh uh Arkansas State trooper first gun fight bad guys down he's

alive happy ending the story a week later he and his wife

are at a swim meet watching their daughter at a swim meet

a stutter's pistol goes off when he didn't expect it oh

arch-powered and gasping for rare french Swiss sweat

his white things he's having a heart attack he don't know what's happening

but what's happening is that sympathetic nervous system kicks in again

when it has something that the midbrain the survival brain says boom we're

back in a gun fight sympathetic nervous system kicks in

and and and the world says oh you have PTSD you're broken no

here's the key and and this is just this is where informed descent comes in

you are not broken the whole industry wants to tell you you have PTSD you're

broken for life you need therapy for the rest of your life no

how you risk you re-experience in the event sympathetic nervous system kicks in

we don't want it to how you respond to it will decide whether or not it

becomes PTSD now the World War II generation

that they knew what doesn't kill me makes me stronger which was stolen from the

Bible Romans chapter 5 we glory in tribulation but

the idea that the bad things will make us stronger the idea that

re-experience in the event and pushing on through it

for a modern generation that's not there and this I'm broken at PTSD no no

so what we tell people is this sympathetic nervous system

arousal kicks in we don't want it to here's tools to handle it for breathing

exercise big swagger water when you re-experience the event

you're going to reach out you're going to push on through and you come out the

other end with post-traumatic growth and the way I tell a new generation of

soldiers and Marines and cops and burst responders I'm

seven years old still on the road a hundred days a year teaching

I tell them this is what it feels like to level up in a video game in a video game

you've been in combat you level up so what's it feel like

well what's going to happen is this is post-traumatic growth

you're going to use your breathing you're going to use that big swagger water and

I just trained international association of hospitals security

administrators and and and chiefs right I said okay you're your hospital

security guard but it's punching the nose in the emergency room I can't go on

the emergency room anymore every time going the ER my heart starts pounding

I'm broken I have PTSD no you don't he's what you're going to do

you're going to walk in the ER with a bottle of water in your hand

and every time you start having that physiological arousal

you're going to stop going to take a big swagger water

you're going to take a deep breath you're going to push on through

and now the next time somebody punches you in the nose

you'll be far better prepared if you are leveling up in a video game nobody

wants to be broken nobody wants to have a disorder

they want to have post-traumatic growth but nobody told them here's what happened

your mind and body here's how we push out the other end of it

and turn it into post-traumatic growth leveling up in this video game

and so you know that's that's kind of the core of my whole

living is is pushing through so here's the key

why is violence so taboo why is it that having somebody come talk about

the possibility of of somebody attacking our school and by the way the very

term school shooting you know we're armed citizen shooting is our

constitutional right shooting is an Olympic sport

it should anger us every time the word shooting is used for a criminal act

I don't use the word school shooting I talk about school massacres school

attacks but why is having somebody come and talk about the

possibility of an attack on your school why is that a taboo topic why is that so

hard to talk about but here's the key that the DSM

the Bible of Sakha and for its psychology talk about PTSD

the DSM says whenever the cause of your trauma is human in nature

that a great trauma is usually more severe and long-lasting

so I tell people you tell me is there a team between these two scenarios scenario

one tornado hits house while you're gone put your family

hospital how do you feel about that well thank god they're alive

scenario two criminals break it on the house while you're gone and beat your

family in hospital state now you feel any different there's all the

difference in the world why one's an active nature a random event we can accept

the others in intentional malignant act by a human being and the idea that

somebody's so evil and so vital that they will come in your house and attack

your family it's too hard and so so many people's only response is denial

and denial kills this twice you've all these school massacre

exterior door unlocked interior door unlocked the people in that school are

living the rest of life in because it was it was school policy locked the doors

but it was too freaking hard to keep this thing in doors locked why right

right half the cost of a modern school building goes in a fire code half the

cost of the building goes in a fire code but they can't accept the

idea that somebody would walk in that door and murder their children

and so they leave the doors unlocked why well I remember now you're you're

reminding me of part of your talk was there hasn't been a death

in a fire in a school in some hundred years why because we created all these

fire codes built around the tragedies that have happened in the past

and since then there hasn't been any school fire yes 70 years why aren't we

why aren't we doing that with active murder in our schools because we

could just as easily with some basic principle hey you know start with

you know just like we have a fire code why don't we have a violence code yeah and

make it the law that the doors are shut I tell everybody you know the other

thing we did in our school is based on your recommendation as we put these

three M films over all the windows so somebody could still shoot through the

window but they couldn't break through reach around and open up the doors like

they did in Columbine oh hard is that it was it was cheap and easy

with the laminate hill many glass on the door beside the door the interior

the exterior door how much does that cost yeah not much you know the most

expensive thing in the building is the fire sprinkler system under pressure for

the lifetime of the building a electrical surmount of fire code fireproof

material for the structure of the building but keeping the doors locked and

putting laminate film on the glass is too hard and until you make it the

law just like just like the fire code they won't do it but this is what we

got to wrap our mind around they can accept the fact that a fire could happen

the fact so Colonel why do you why do you do this work what prompt to do and

motivated you to do this kind of work yeah you know it really is right and I

one of my books is is on spiritual combat

and I believe that what you can figure out what God wants from you

by the gifts that he has given you and he's given me this gift i'm seven years old

in august i'm in ridiculously good health

I and I just figure as long and he's given me the ability to teach he's given

me these insights and as long as we have this gift and and one of my favorite

authors said that you know you can discern what God wants by the gifts he's

given you and she said God has a way of dealing with wrapped

daughters you know you've got all these gifts and you just you just drop out of

life you know that's that's just an extra step to die and we've got these gifts

I'm set up you know Willie Nelson's 92 and on tour that's why I want to be

when I grow up and I just believe and and they're on it I've got that

because and here's the key I love my God I love my family I love my children

I love my grandchildren my grandson just came back for his first combat

tour and and and and the very near future of great grandchildren and I believe

you know I asked my cops I asked every group I said why do you do what you do

nobody can pay you enough and and Jesus said griddle of is no one than this

that they lay down their life for their friends

there are many ways to lay down your life there's sometimes a greatest love

and I've got this on my tombstone it's in my social media feed

you know Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman on my social media my tombstone is a

bench and on the backside of the tombstone is this saying

sometimes the greatest love is not to sacrifice your life but to live a

life of sacrifice yeah and I believe if we love our God if we love our fellow man

if we love our nation if we love our children our grandchildren

love means you give 100% and and and love means you take the gifts you've

been given and use them to the best your ability and

so why do you guys nobody's paying you a big bucks for this podcast why are you

doing the podcast not to get rich and famous that's for sure no yeah we don't

we don't we make no money on this podcast we do it because

it'll for a couple reasons one it's fun and it allows us the opportunity to

meet some really interesting people and have conversations

that we otherwise might not be able to have and share those with

you know however many hundreds of thousands of people that download the

podcast yes may it be so Mark is a psychiatrist and you've talked a lot

about post-traumatic stress and the impact

that it has on people mark thoughts on on what you hear Colonel Grossman say

I was reaching around the the table here to my bookshelf because

I could have sworn that I have your book on my on my bookshelf somewhere but I

just moved my office I think I rearranged everything

it was a number of years ago probably five six years ago before

Jeff and I met and we started training at firearms associates in corona

and before I received my concealed carry permit a man came to my home who was

a former military and he was a one-on-one handgun trainer

and I remember him very clearly saying there's there's three books that you

really need to read and one of them was this book that you wrote on killing

and I if you haven't thought about this in five years

and I ordered all three books and I read all of them and I still have them

somewhere on one of my bookcases I just as I said move my office yesterday

it's a different one. Even more important than on killing is on combat

and because I thought what was at the heart of it was killing and I realized

this is and this is almost everybody will take the same thing on killing

on combat terribly important it was Ukraine book the year award

all this stuff on post-traumatic growth and PTSD is in here

but the the point of it of this book was a big bestseller during the pandemic

or the pandemic if you will this book was it was a huge bestseller in the

medical community it was number one bestseller on amazon at several medical

categories because which enormously rewarding so many people said you know

it turns out the stress of combat is not too much different than the

stress of what we're going through right now

and that was one of the most rewarding things in my life

where the medical I did a podcast for all of England's ER docs and

and so I just take the next step after on killing I'm glad you found it a

value but take the next step on combat and if you're

focused that way on hunting is really kind of the triad on

you know it's understanding who we are and what we do

and then to make it the next step into on spiritual

so just to follow up on the whole book thing from the author perspective

but I'm so pleased that he would tell you that and I'm pleased that you're

fellow sheep dogs that you're fellow uh gun-throughton

right-minded Americans and and it it's you don't know across all the bad

things happen on our nation shall issue concealed

carry going you know in in you know in 43 states and then

the Supreme Court decision essentially making it all 50 states

the fact that when you make that conscious decision

to protect yourself and your loved ones instead of being

instead of being the the we're talking on hunting

that we've always been in the middle of the food chain as a species

we've been hunted and we've been the hunter but it's no fun to be hunted

we don't want to be hunted we're never happy when we're hunted

we're only happy when we're the hunter and those who've chosen to carry a gun

those who've chosen to make that decision to be the sheep dog and not the sheep

and they're there there's so much there's so much more joyful in their life

they don't need a life of being hunted they leave a life of being prepared

they're not necessarily on the hunt they're not the wolf hound but they're the

sheep dog they're ready to protect their flock and uh

and it's a beautiful thing to have two fellow sheep dogs here I actually have

the US government trademark for the term sheep dog

I uh I coined that term in my book uh

uh on on on on combat and uh and it's really exciting to to see a psychiatrist

it's picked up that room with it the other half of the

post-traumatic growth equation is that we're really really good at treating

PTSD you're not don't don't don't don't have a negative self-fulpilling problem

I'm gonna have PTSD no you're not post-traumatic growth but even if you do

have full-blown true blue PTSD we're really really good at treating it

and you come out the other one of post-traumatic growth

is a soldier's PTSD versus a soldier a similar combat

experience that doesn't have PTSD is it all about

preparation before you go into combat and go into battle

you know there's three variables in the equation the first is previous unresolved

trauma and uh in your life and and and preparation and full one and full

armed and all the things we can do before the event

and the second is the nature of the trauma in the event and once again that's a

factor of mental preparation you know if you're

sleep deprived we got research if you sleep deprived

your five times more like they'd get PTSD I tell people don't have a

pity party here but if you're sleep deprived your body's already under stress

when a traumatic event occurs then they then these they can

amplify each other and finally is the support structure afterwards

and they're really kind of multiplicative you know if you if you're low

you know low in all three areas they multiply each other low if you're high in

one area it can amplify it if you're high in two or the three areas they

they can really amplify things but um but the the

soldiers who do not get PTSD uh the primary thing

that why they bring me in why my books from Marine Corps

Commodance required reading rest for over 20 years

is just being full one and full armed like I said

auditory exclusion slow motion time tunnel vision memory gaps memory

distortions that boom it's bad enough somebody's trying to kill you

with all those weird and wonderful things happening

and then what's really vital is the debriefing afterwards

where where we we make peace with the memory and doing that right and those are

things that they teach me we we just said the Marine

Embassy the the the the Consulate in Karachi

Pakistan attack and the Marine Guards they are

killed a lot of people they really it was kind of like

you know we're old enough to remember when the when the

Iranians took the US Embassy and they were told basically to stand down

but these guys were told no you do not stand out and they shot a lot of people

and uh they're the young marine captain who had read my books

in uh in Pakistan uh uh wanted me to come out there and train you know

conduct the debriefing with this troops and I I basically told him you know

I'd be happy to with it but but you can do this yourself this is not hard

yeah I taught you how to do it in on combat you know do the debriefing I

basically got a bottle of water in front of them fill in the memory gaps

sort out the memory distortions uh make peace with the memory

and uh and don't hesitate to help if you need it

yeah come out you had the one post-traumatic growth but the truth is those

Marines are doing great uh you know the the Marine Guards who stood down

and when the Iranians took the embassy they were destroyed human beings they

they were raised to fight they were raised to defend and they were told to

do nothing uh the horrible things that happened to our

embassy the the hostages that were taken for over a year during

Jimmy Carter's administration they were broken human beings the Marines

had a different permission to fight and win they're doing great uh

yeah uh uh Colonel we're gonna take a we're gonna take a really quick break

and then when we come back more with Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman

uh and the work that he's doing a new book that he's working on and we'll be

right back in a minute

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all right we are back and form dissent with lieutenant colonel Dave Grossman such an honor to have you

here so what I know you're working on another book right now is that right I've always got a book

going I've got I've got one called on murder working with a guy who's taking life in prison for

murder about really doing something nobody else has ever done I've got a science fiction fantasy

series that that is actually the first book will release very soon but my very most recent book

coming out in May is called bulletproof family we wrote the book bulletproof marriage

Christian book ward finalist 90 day devotional sheep dog and spouse anybody who is sheep dog

and that as you but it's sheep dog and spouse 90 minutes a day or 90 days 15 minutes a day

but the sequel coming out in May my my co-author really gets all the credit is called bulletproof family

and it'll be coming out in May so I've got that'll be that'll be my 17th book in print and then

first in this fiction series will be out you know in about a month that'll be number 18 and like I

said I would you know William Shatner is 94 and caught in a rock album that's why I want to be

when I grow up you know stay in the fight as long as I can check Morris passed away recently but

there are a lot of Chuck Norris jokes about his strength and vigor maybe they should have

Colonel Grossman jokes the same thing you know what Chuck Norris with his last post he said I don't

die I level up yeah and and that made the hair said I'm back my head and it's true I thought

you're a man of the meme that's I'm going to go no no he really said that and that's the way

we should view life you know we this is not our home we're soldiers supplied to a war zone when we

die we get to go home but yeah we get our patents and life will make you stronger you know that

that that that guy the punch you in the nose you're going to level up to the next level in this

game nobody wants to drop out of the game the game is life it's the only option we want to level

up that's post-traumatic growth that's Chuck Norris we talked before we started recording a

little bit about the challenges of cell phones on school campuses or share share your perspective

on that well you know it goes back to informed descent you got to be informed I recently presented

to a a New York chief's conference just last December regional chiefs of police conference

and they banned all cell phones in all schools in New York as as I was told at the time half

of all states have banned cell phones in the school but nobody knows it because they want to sell

a cell phone to your kindergarten or they don't want you to know that half of all states abandon

the things and there's the cell phones are so harmful in so many ways the social media the games

the pornography the cheating the distractions but here's one ought to just in rage you if there's

a major emergency in the school 100 terrified parents are going to beat the first ambulance and

your kids gonna die because those stinkin cell phones in the phone in the school and every kid is

gonna immediately text mommy and daddy and mommy and daddy gonna know before 9-1-1 and mommy and

daddy live closer than 9-1-1 and we'll have gridlock chaos in the first in the first three minutes

and emergency vehicles can't rip the block in the school your kids gonna die and then at the time

we emergency responders use cell phones in so many ways but the cell tower goes down because

the thousand kids are calling out a thousand parents are calling in the media will know often

before 9-1-1 knows 100 terrified parents will know all because the stinkin cell phones in the

school get those stinkin phones out of your school now as you love your kids yeah but who knows

the half of all states abandon who knows this state in New York it's just not in the news

because there's this industry we're always fighting some some invested this is where you guys come

in informed to send there's some you know big pharma you know these people want to sell the cell

phones you know the harm of sleep deprivation sleep deprivation is the major factor in mental illness

it will make you mentally ill and the third day without sleep you you will be psychotic can you

graduate of army ranger school or sear school what about hallucinations that you will flat you

will be you will be psychotic on the third day without sleep and on the second day without sleep

you you are you're irrational you're aggressive you're hostile you're you're paranoid I mean sleep

deprivation is a just a one-way track straight to mental illness it's a major factor in suicide

doing online search sleep deprivation suicide number right now it's physically impossible for you

to take your life the drive to sub-preservation is too powerful but alcohol inhibits the drive to

self-preservation alcohol so often a factor in suicide and sleep deprivation works exactly the

same way doing online search but but they're not going to tell you the sleep deprivation is a

key factor in traffic death the number one killer of American teenagers but I'm going to tell you

that sleep deprivation to keep factor in suicide the number two killer of our kids then I can

tell you that sleep deprivation is a key factor in mental illness not all they want that that

Netflix get this do an online search Netflix says our competitor is sleep is a corporate policy

they don't want you to know that the social media is destroying you and your children with

sleep deprivation and the cell phones are still stealing your children's sleep they don't want

you to know that the cell phone is is is is terribly destructive to your schools and half of all

states have banned cell phones they don't want you to know that because they want to sell the product

to your children the video game industry is never going to tell you that these things are designed

to put you in a flow state where you you virtually cannot sleep and you will not sleep and you'll

be on that third day without sleep playing video games all night long wondering why you're seeing

things and hearing things that are not there then we wonder where the the mental illness is

coming from we've got an industry that wants to sell you you know big farm but we've got the

cell phone industry we've got the video game industry and all of them want to steal your sleep

and steal your time and take your money and and it comes back to cell phones in the school why

don't we know that why don't we know that half of all states banned cell phones in the school

everybody approaches the item like it's some kind of this let's get rid of cell phones in the

school no no you can't do that you're not informed that the whole state of New York's already

done that and already seen tremendous benefit from it that's a great thing that my charter school

and orange we ban cell phones the kid shows up at the cell phone they can turn it into the front

office and they'll get it back at the end of the day we want kids walking around talking to

each other sitting at lunch having a conversation we don't have your phone on social media during

the school hours whatsoever you know what I am I got by the link between uh between sleep

up vision suicide and uh and twinators 10 11 12 year old girls twin age suicide rate crippled

in a decade and that was pre pandemic they've really gone up since then and I had a police officer

come up and he'd done a break he said he said I have one of those twin age girls he said she

was a good girl she was an age student she said dad it's embarrassing you don't have to take

my cell phone every night he said family good policy cell phone with the charger you go to bed

said you don't have to take my phone you could trust me it's embarrassing it's okay the price

you keep your phone you said a little while later she took her life you said my little girl took her

life and he said we never knew the hell she was living in until we looked at the text messages on

her cell phone night after night of ceaseless relentless vicious bullying and he can't just ignore

that we're not wired that way he he said he he said it was heart-winnings you're all night long

night after night trying to avenger so they were taking turns they were taking shifts

that and and he said I knew my little girl was bullied to death what I didn't understand and tell

now she was sleep deprived and formented and bullied death and for my eyes and I let it happen

he said I can't ignore that text message in the middle of the night we expect our kids to

that's right why wasn't he educated why don't we know this there's a whole industry out there

that wants a cell phone to your to your kindergartner and take it a bit at night

without any knowledge whatsoever the harmful effects it's happening how will they think somebody

should be before a parent gives them a cell phone 18 no no adult has ever said

I cursed my parents for the video games I couldn't play no adult has ever said

I cursed my parents for the for the movies I couldn't watch and the TV shows I couldn't watch

they say I blessed my parents I learned how to read I learned we played board games we were outside

we had a life you know there's no reason I you know you can get a phone this text only

that's extremely limited has no screen on it and and if you absolutely want to have one then

that's the way to go there's phones that are text only with a limited number of people it has no

screen on it other than that the text messaging and that's all you want you don't know that's my phone

you know you you feel pretty strong about that as well limiting cell phone access to kids

I don't think that there's a net positive for cell phones in minors at all and so I believe

that cell phones should not be in the hands of anyone that's underage at this point because I

don't really think there's any valid argument for it anymore you know every piece of technology

had to be digested we had automobiles for 50 years before some genius said you know kids shouldn't

be driving these things for 50 years if you could reach the pedals and look over the dashboard

you could drive you know wait a minute wait a minute so the automobile industry said yeah we

accept regulation no big deal but the tobacco industry bought tooth and nail decade at the decade

to keep selling tobacco to children and and this is what we got is industry after industry following

the path of the tobacco industry the firearms industry never said all we we have a right to sell

firearms to five year olds they never said that their automobile industry they embraced regulation

of their product when it came to kids pretty much but we've got all these industries

are aren't they making the video game industry that this cell phone are they making enough money

selling their product to adults why why do they have to make the asking more money and market

their products at children alcohol tobacco sex drugs firearms there's so many things adults can

have a kids can yeah yeah you know that is we're fighting all these industries and we pay this

tragic price the sleep deprivation the the mental illness the the violent fixation and the video

games I one of my books that I commend your attention is assassination generation and and you

know it it was California in 2005 the brain scan data California in 2005 overwhelmingly voted

to regulate children's access to violent video games Hollywood said we're cool with this

Silicon Valley said yeah Arnold Schwarzenegger signed a law of California 2005 overwhelming

to regulate children's access to violent video games and the video game industry fought

all the way to the Supreme Court they said we have a constitutional first and then we're right

to sell any game didn't get it any age and they con seven old men seven out of nine who never

played calm in their life they overturned the California law now how many people knew that and

the dissenting opinions are really important and they're all in my book assassination generation

but they want to shove that down the memory hole the state and the brain scan data was overwhelming

the state of California regulating violent video games Hollywood Silicon Valley were cool with this

and the industry fought all the way to the Supreme Court so any game to any kid at any age

and and we don't even know that so much as much a parent a parental problem as it is a

regulation problem though too in so many ways but you know when I when I do my presentations

sleep deprivation we lose more cops to suicide than every other line of duty death put together

and all my first responders and all my military suicide is just this huge issue and I talk about

sleep deprivation and I talk about my dad started smoking in 1941 when he was five years old

he said he plunked a nickel on the counter at the general store couldn't he look over the counter

plunked a nickel on the counter bought a packable durm tobacco and rolling papers and I started

smoking five years old and I show ads you know it's a camel ad this is more doctor smoke camels

in near the cigarette I put another guy that you know as you're Dennis I would recommend

vice-roy cigarettes oh Dennis say vice-royed doxy camels with this so his parents didn't know

the cigarettes were harmful and and the parents don't know that the video games and the cell phones

are harmful we know that we're supposed to have a fire exit sign and we know that we're supposed to

have fire sprinklers in the school because it's the law this data california tried to pass a law

in the video game industry fought all the way to the supreme court and then they shoved it down

the memory hole that's where informed descent comes in that's why I'm so proud of you guys and

be a part of what you do and getting the information out and all your listeners out there that are

pushing the envelope you know uh uh my my little service dog I'm I'm a hearing loss

my little service dog I know this is pretty much audio only but this is Charlie it's uh he's uh

he's a miniature poodle he's 11 pounds he thinks he's a canine but he's really like a K2 or a K3

he's he's pretty good but he's a good little guy and uh but he costs people think a service dog

costs you know 20 30 thousand dollars well Charlie's a hearing dog he costs a thousand dollars he

said time left you know nothing wrong with buying a Rolex nothing wrong with but selling a Rolex

but you can you can you can get your own service dog you can frame them yourself

and and they can get the job done for you Charlie took a day to train him the alarm goes off he

gets a treat now when the alarm goes off in the morning can't sleep with the hair days in

alarm goes off in the morning he's in my face he does not he does not believe in this news

button this news button is spawned at the devil but I want my treat and I want it right now but

the point I wonder if I can I wonder if I can train my cats to do that but people think there's

all kinds of whoop you gotta jump through to get a service dog you know it's just to get on the

plane I Charlie's great on the plane he he rides him a little sling but to get on the plane you've

got to get a form filled out ahead of time with the airlines and and they've got to be they've

got to be disciplined and the things he got to do but the point is everybody thinks and and

and not not that the service dog industry is bad not at all but everybody thinks the only way to

do this is to spend 20 30 thousand dollars when it doesn't have to be that way you can

put your own dog you can frame your dog there's no great certification just don't don't embarrass us

by having some so-called service dog that's not under control but the point is it it's about being

informed and it's about dissenting no your kid doesn't need a cell phone and no there's there's

no no positive value for any mind or to have a cell phone and and your kid will not curse you

for the phone that didn't have you know well speaking of speaking of dissenting and I know this

is a little bit off topic but you know as as we speak the United States is basically at war in

Iran with lots of military assets there's a lot of folks that thinks we shouldn't be there

there's a lot of folks that don't support the military action that we're doing right now

what's your perspective on what's going on in Iran or I think we're popping a great big

festering zip that's needed to be popped for a long time and I mean I remember the Beirut

Barracks and hundreds of Marines killed by Hezbollah funded by Iran I remember when the

Iranian embassy in act of war to take would Jimmy Carter was president then act of war to take

our embassy and hold them hostage for over a year and that the very day that Ronald Reagan

became president boom they were released but we've put up with these folks for too long and frankly

we're doing it with with just no just it's just my grandson was deployed for the 12 day war

the initial hit on the Iranian

uh uh newts my grandson received a army commendation metal with Vida with with seed advice for under

combat conditions what's what services in he's an army army intel smart kid when intel is his

grandpa's an infantry officer but he's a smart kid he went intel but they were under fire they

were they were you know we lost we this last one with the they made a dead hit on one of those

intel centers and we lost some more kids it could have been my grandson but they are so supportive

right now of taking these guys down these are evil evil people they're they're fostered evil

across the globe uh they're they're providing a world of China just I and I and there's so much

yet to come uh the Kurds in one of the greatest things kind of if I rack his Kurdistan in northern

northern Iraq are our special ops love them they they're the ones with the female fighters with

the long braids they're they're very secular they're they're they're they're they're the Islamic nation

but they're the Kurds are amazing people everybody of our soldiers are military loves them

so the Kurds are are attacked from every direction that people hate them we we have the most

prosperous secular beautiful part of the Middle East right now is Kurdistan and there are a lot of

Kurds in in western Iran and the Kurds have all pulled out of Syria we know that they're there

in Iran is just a matter of time that the other shoe is going to drop and Iran I think the model

we're going to see potentially it could be a lot like former Yugoslavia my wife and I visited a

while back we visited Serbia and Montenegro we we visited Albania and Croatia it all used to be

Yugoslavia it used to be oppressed and we had the breakup of former Yugoslavia and and today we

have all these ethnic groups that have been stable and prosperous I think we may see Luristan we see

Balucus Dan will we the Azerbaijan could double their population and their size overnight by

embracing the Azerbaijan part of Iran and meanwhile we'll see the Iranian people themselves

being able to have freedom maybe it'll happen maybe not maybe it's a pipe dream but we haven't

seen the Kurds move yet and and there's the other shoe ready to drop over there I can't

let you see some neat things happening and what's happening so far is good all by itself I assume

you're in touch I assume you you've got contacts pretty high up in the military are they pleased with

how this is being executed so far oh I don't have a lot of contacts I'm just an old soldier and

but everybody I've talked with are deeply pleased the recruiting and this current administration

is just to the roof good things are happening our military is deeply supportive across the board

you know the recruiting during the Biden administration was horrific we were just hurting we

were we were a hollow armed forces recruiting was just hurting nobody wanted to serve under Biden

no one even understood the nation that that men led and then magnificent young men and women

have enlisted since this administration recruiting is up good things are happening it's a great

time to be an American you know and last year in law enforcement by law enforcement officers even

regardless their politics last year we we went in in 2021 or 2020 but they dored fluid effect we had

the single greatest annual increase in homicides we've ever seen and now last year I never thought

we had the Ferguson effect in which 15 and 16 we saw homicides explode as bad as anything we've

ever seen in the 60s the medical technologies hold them down the number of homicides and then in

2020 we saw 30 percent but almost three times worse annual increase in homicides and into whatever

seen before and in 25 the all-time lowest murder rate in recorded history you know what's that I

will never thought we could undo the Ferguson effect undo the George Floyd effect and come down

to the all-time lowest now that murder rate should be held down by medical technology the murder rate

is not that good of a measure don't get too carried away but still who would have thought that we

could have turned around from from from just record explosions of homicides to the all-time record

low number of homicides uh there's low enforcement community the first responders my granddaughter

is is not the politics I'd like her to be but she's something found out that whoa I didn't get

taxed on my dips this year oh that's pretty cool my granddaughter it's is rethinking things you know

but girl before I forget how do people get a hold of you how do they follow you and find out

where you're going to be speaking around the country? GrossmanonTruth.com www.grossmanonTruth.com

or Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman on on LinkedIn or or or or any of the social media out there we've

got a good social media life and we're building that we love the followers we love to get the info

out see what I've been up to my my tombstone is a bench check that out and see what that's about

I'll be 70 in August I'm going to cut a video with my elevating my feet on my tombstone and

knocking out push up 70 years old how many can you do who does who can do more you or Bobby Kennedy

Bobby's got me beat yeah Bobby's an animal he's pretty impressive I wouldn't even want to

Bobby's a good man I'm a I'm a big fan of what he's doing and as I assume you guys are giving

away for sure yeah he's talking about combat what he's doing right now is a form of combat

it is it is and so you're on the side of good things folks and all you listeners out there just know

that our military is is standing tall our law enforcement is is breathing easy after all time

record number cops murdered in the line of duty where we're turning the tide in so many ways

believe in who you are believe in what you do your sheep dogs armed Americans

making the world a better and safer place and I I've been hogging all of the the stuff here and

eagerly like to know what you and and mark and say about all that but what a privilege and an

honor to spend the beyond board with you and all of you yeah well thanks for joining us any plans

that you're aware of on your calendar to be out in southern California

now put me on coach bring me in I love you and you're in Virginia I can't remember where do you

live I'm in the St. Louis area okay yeah yeah but you know a couple nights a week

logical visit clean under we're back in the road it's a good ride it's a good life I love it

thank thank you for your work thank you for your mission thank you for your gifts and

and sharing it with so many people because as I mentioned me coming in contact with you many many

years ago has made quite a difference in my perspective and certainly for the safety of the

kids that I'm involved with so thank you for thank you for doing that and of course thank you

for coming on informed descent it's been an honor thank you guys God bless you and God bless you

you've been listening to informed descent with Dr. Jeff Markey board certified primary care

physician and Dr. Mark McDonald board certified child adolescent and adult psychiatrist informed

descent the intersection of health care and politics