This Week's Interviews | Gov. Spencer Cox, Jia Tolentino, Andrew Garfield

0:00You're listening to Comedy Central. Pfff. Pfff. Hey, what up, you girls? Come on in tonight. He is. You tossed 18th from Governor, an author of Off-Ramp. How to be a peacemaker in an age of contempt? Please welcome to the program, Republican Governor Spencer Cox. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, what up, you girls? Come on in tonight. He is. You tossed 18th from Governor, an author of Off-Ramp. How to be a peacemaker in an age of contempt? Please welcome to the program, Republican Governor Spencer Cox. Sorry. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's great to see you. It's great to be here. Thank you. Off-Ramp. How to be a peacemaker in an age of contempt? Talk about what is the purpose. I'll use a trick from your book on you at the very start. You seem very passionate about this. Yeah. Can you tell me why you feel so strongly?

1:00That's from Page 2. It's in there. Yeah. No, thank you. It's a strategy. It is a strategy. A year ago, something terrible happened in my state. Now, I've been writing about contempt, studying about contempt, and... I've been practicing it. You're very good at it. Thank you. Polarization in our country and our inability to accomplish anything. Yes. And when Charlie Kirk was assassinated in Utah, I felt compelled to finish the work and to write this book. I care deeply about our nation. Right. I think we can solve problems without shooting each other. Yes. And I would prefer that. So that's...that's why. But we have, you know, a pretty good history in this country of shooting each other. Fair. That would be... Pre-social media. We used to shoot people quite frequently. What is different about this time in your mind that makes the rhetoric... You know, it's over my... Sixth and the Stones will break my bones, but names.

2:02That's the real issue. Right? What do you mean? Well, look, I don't know that this is a new problem. Yes. And we do have this recency bias, where we think everything is the best or everything is the worst. I mean, literally 600,000 Americans killed each other in the 1860s. Don't tell me how it ends. All right. I'll... You'll get there. The 1960s and 1970s, you know, political assassinations were fairly common. So, I'm not here to tell people that it's worse than then, but I am here to tell people that we're headed in that direction again. And I don't think that's good for us or for our country. Now, the tools are different, the divisive tools, social media, the algorithms, our ability to surround ourselves with only people that are just like us. Only here, what we want to hear, that confirmation bias. That's fairly new. The atomization of facts, we have three stations where you could kind of hear what was happening in the country.

3:03So, all of that is very different. We are lonelier than we've ever been as a country. I think that's very dangerous. I think young men, especially, the gamification of society, the lack of real contact is bad for them. And the results, we're starting to see, it's not great. So, let me... is the idea that by using different tools to disagree, we can begin to solve those problems or are those problems the result of those things. Like, in other words, is it... Would you like to see that done to alleviate the loneliness or are there measures that need to be taken, that we are not taking? So, what we're seeing in this country right now is this toxic divisiveness. And it's... we're seeing at the national level, and that's what... I know you want to talk about. It's what you just talked about, for sure. What I'm even more concerned about is what's happening at the individual level.

4:05Right. So, four times as many people have lost a friend or a family member to politics. We've replaced healthy tribes in our country, volunteer organizations, faith-based organizations, with politics. Politics has become a religion for a lot of people. Right. And those are very unhealthy tribes. And so, my concern with that is, as we continue to lose that, as you drive the Taco Bell and don't talk to a real person now, we're talking to artificial intelligence. Yes. That is... that's going to continue to lead us to this very dark place. And we can't solve any of our greatest problems if we can't have a debate. If we can't talk to each other. If I... if you're beneath me and I'm not willing to engage with you, then we can't solve that. So, my point is that I don't pretend like I'm going to solve all of the nation's problems. Yes. But if I can get you to talk to a cousin or a friend that you don't talk to anymore,

5:09that's eventually how we heal our nation. The crowd feels that very strongly. Let me make an argument for contempt. The reverse. I have found, in my experience, that there's... You have to be able to discern things that are contemptible. There are things that are contemptible. How do you reckon that we address that? Is the idea that we just acquiesce to the contemptible? I'll make it to the museum. Tell me more about what you feel this way. Senator Mike Lee, he's a Utah guy. I dealt with him trying to get the 9-11's a drug-a-bill past, which was funding for first responders and survivors of 9-11 who led down at ground zero, who were getting sick. I'm very familiar. Yeah.

6:09We had a meeting with him with firefighters, police officers, and all that. And he was... I'm going to go with not good. And then was one of only two senators to vote that down. And then when the tragedy happened in Minnesota, and those people were killed, and he tweeted out Nightmare on Waltz Street. How do I... First of all, when I spoke to Congress, I treated them with disdain, because that's what they'd earned. And that disdain helped the power disparity between them. Isn't that a tool sometimes for the weak? To be able to deal with those... If you can't call something truly contemptible, and treat it as such, and have society agree to that,

7:09why would we have to act we as to that? That's all I'm curious. This is truly... And I mean, this, I think, is a good conversation to have about it. It's an important conversation to have it. And look, I'm not telling you that you should not find things contemptible. I find lots of things contemptible. And you've given some examples of that. That tweet was contemptible. We should all stand up and say, that's not okay, we don't support that. And yet, you met with him, even though you knew he wasn't supportive at the point of your time. Well, no, I knew he wasn't supportive, but I didn't know he was that. Which is fair. But you had the meeting. And that's the point I'm trying to make. Look, there is nothing that I'm... No argument I'm making here. That we should compromise on our principles, that we have to give up on the things our core beliefs. I'm not talking about just being nice to each other. Okay.

8:09That's not what this is about. All right. This is about sitting here and having this debate face to face. You telling me how you feel, I'm going to tell you how I feel. And at the end of the day, we might find some areas where we can agree. And we might not. And you might think I'm a terrible human being. And I might leave here thinking that that was a waste of time. My mom was right. I shouldn't have come on the show. Did you love to? No, no. Can I tell you what's so weird? Can I tell you something? Your mom said, I shouldn't come on the show. No, my mom says, I shouldn't be on the show. She doesn't like me. Yeah. For the record, my mom likes you. Honestly, no, it was not that. But that's not what this is about. Yeah. It turns out that people that learned how to debate in high school and college are less polarized than the rest of the country. Having actual debate is something we don't do anymore. I think we actually need more disagreement. I think we need more of this instead of the, I'm not going to engage with you because you're beneath me. I think you're evil.

9:10I just think there's nothing more on American than hating our fellow Americans. I just think that that is in some ways a caricature of how Americans relate to each other. One that is displayed on. I find it more in state houses than I do in actual houses. I find that before we can all learn to be peacemakers with each other, the system is not incentivized for that. Like on that we agree. Aren't we placing the onus of this on individuals? When in some respects, this is a natural product of the incentive system that's in place in our government and in our ecosystem. Absolutely. The hardest part about doing this and practicing it is that the incentives are completely misaligned. As a politician, the algorithms reward me saying outlandish things,

10:11tearing down my opponents, much more likely to get elected at least historically over the past 20 years that's certainly been the case. We had Stanford study this, their depolarization lab. We did the latest communist. Sometimes. Yes. We actually put a Republican and a Democratic governor together, they filmed ads together. We got 24 of them to do it where they said, hey, we disagree on lots of things, but we can disagree without hating each other. We both care about our country. Right. We want to work together on some things. They study this in their lab. They did an experiment. Thousands of people watched these videos. We looked at their responses. It turns out that there is another way to get elected in this country. 70% of Americans hate how divided we are right now. They're desperate for something else. There's a market failure. The incentives are misaligned. Neither party is responding to that market failure right now. And I'm just convinced that the first party who does is going to do very, very well. I hope it's my party, but that remains to be seen.

11:13Yeah, I don't think that's going to be fair. That doesn't seem to be the lesson they're learning from the last 10 years. What's worked? Tell me where this has been successful and where you have found its limitations. So it's successful when you can try to take what appears to be a zero-sum game and turn it into a win-win situation. Okay. Which happens on occasion in politics. Talk to me. Okay. The real examples of this happening in the state of Utah. We're working on the Great Salt Lake right now. Environmental disaster. The Great Salt Lake is drying up. No country on earth has been able to preserve a great saline lake once they enter terminal decline. The environmental left, of course, was all over this. Like, hey, yeah, we got to save the lake. No surprise there. How do conservatives come along and work on this in a state where we have a super majority of Republicans in the state house? Okay. And so this is an area where we figure out.

12:15Is that what you're talking about? That's a great relation as well. Yes. Okay. Because in a lot of states like Massachusetts, super majority of Democrats, but not a lot of states have super majorities that are not necessarily reflective because of gerrymandering. So again, talking about the incentive structure. Correct. Yeah. And that's one of the incentive structures I agree is a problem in our country. So, you know, how do we figure out how to work on this? And we need some help nationally. So I've got to figure out how to work with Joe Biden on this problem. And then I have to figure out how to advertise saving the lake. So this will challenge your priors a little bit. Oh, please. So I'm in the beast with President Biden. And I'm in his car. His car. This is the limousine. Yes. The presidential limousine. He's in Salt Lake. My wife and I are there. We're having a wonderful conversation with him. I bring up the lake. He says, sure. Yeah. We'd love to help and we, nothing really happened after that. I mean, so he wasn't opposed to it. What? From the government? Wait, what? You said they would do something and then nothing happened? Shocking. I know.

13:15Sure. At long last. A year and a half later, I'm in the Oval Office. I'm talking to President Trump. And I bring up the great Salt Lake. We have a conversation about it. He says, OK, what do you need? And I said $1 billion. And he said, great. Let's work on getting you a billion dollars. And the next day I get a call from him. And what are you going to have to name the lake? What do you believe? What do you believe? We'll be. So the Republican governor of Utah was able through this peacemaking to get the Republican president to get him water. Again, it's really, really important for our state. This is a big deal. Completely understand that. And $1 billion is not a terrible price to pay to preserve that. And what I will say, one of the most stringent environmentalists anti-Trump people I know who's working on this project

14:16had a red hat made that said make the great Salt Lake great again and tweeted out how briefly it was for the president's help on that issue. And I told the president we'd name it whatever he wants if he helps us save the lake. So in your mind, you were able to, what was it about, what did you change to make that happen other than in the course of convincing the president why this was a good idea or not? Did you feel that was a cultural hot button somehow? Sure. Yeah, I was very worried that Republicans would just see this as kind of a climate change, you know, leftist idea. Oh. And I didn't even think about this. Yeah, and that's where, if the environmental community supports it, then we're opposed to it, right? And this was us trying to bring those two together to work on this issue. Not just there, but in the state houses where, well, where we now have... Give me another Utah. Give me another Utah. Okay. Several years ago, LGBTQ protection and rights.

15:20No, no... Get warmer? Okay. No red state had taken this on. This was, so think kind of 2014, 2015. You were one of the only red state governors who made a pride month. Is that correct? That's correct. So I was Lieutenant Governor at this time, but the Indiana is blowing up over this issue, religious freedom, Rifra laws. You saw the same thing in Arkansas. This was people saying, I don't want to bake a cake for like a gay wedding. Correct. Yes, yes. This was... You have to bake a cake if, regardless of your religious beliefs, we brought in the LGBTQ leadership in the state. We brought in the religious leadership in the state, the predominant church, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but others, the Catholic church, the Jewish faith, the Muslims, all around the table. And for... Muslims. Weeks, yes. Utah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. They're there. Okay.

16:20So we... I... I can tell it's been a while since you've been to Utah. I haven't been there in a while. I went through there and I was like, can I brother get a cup of coffee? I was down and then I was there. I was done. Yeah. I'm sure it's all different. I'm sure it's all different. There's one there now. It's really true. I'm an old man. I saw the beard. So... But honestly, I might need a hit from that marker before we start. Understood. I understand. So we brought them all together. And it was rough. I mean, there were times where people walked out of the room. They felt contempt for each other at times. Right. And yet... What were you attempting to... Were you attempting a legislative solution? Yes. What is it that you were looking to craft? Well, we did craft it. And this is what came out. Okay. So two things that were really important. So one was protection for LGBTQ people in our state...

17:20Citizens in our state in employment and housing. So, you know, you don't get kicked out of your apartment because you're gay. And these did not exist in our state. That was not a protected class at the time. Really? We were the first red state in the nation to do that. And we added protections for people of faith. So you don't have to bake the cake if you don't want to. But you also don't get to fire people from their jobs or keep people out of their apartments. That was the barge. But you can understand how... It's a child's year. Look, I mean, we're sitting there on the night this is signed. I mean, maybe now it doesn't resonate because we were several years ago. But this was groundbreaking. I mean, at the time. And I have religious leaders and the LGBTQ community, like hugging and tears, in the rotunda of the Capitol. And it's a great example of bringing people together. I think that's... It's certainly an admirable effort. It's hard for me not to look at it as...

18:22There's a vulnerable... There's a power disparity in that equation. And that the gay community in Utah is not equivalent to the Christian community in Utah. And so... The difficulty I have in that, just being honest, is that you're asking a community of people whose humanity has not been recognized as total to accept that they will be... You will still be viewed... We can't fire you, but we will still view you as aberrant. And we will enshrine that in the law. Because it does... If you flip that and you say to somebody, I will not bake a cake because you believe in Jesus for your wedding. I think you can see that that would... That's a contemptuous position. And so asking a group that is traditionally less right-headed, to accept a bargain for their humanity,

19:25still strikes me fundamentally as... I don't want to say contemptible, but boy, there's some synonyms that are hard for me to... It's a hard one to swallow as a victory. Does that resonate in any way? I mean, it resonates, but I don't think that that was how it was viewed. And again... You can talk to them. I'll let them have that conversation. I'm not gonna end up... It's like... I do one show a week. I already... I spend my whole longest reading this thing. What I will say is those protections went both ways. And it's not about contempt. It's about religious freedom, which is really important to people. You wouldn't have to bake a cake for a Christian if you didn't want to. That is also included in the law.

20:26We're not gonna force you to do that piece. And yet, at the time, again, this was incredibly rare. It had never happened. Those types of protections in a red state. And it didn't have to happen. That's the point. But even now, though, and I so appreciate the effort, but you no longer have Pride Month in Utah. You've changed it to Fidelity Month. Why? Well, do you want to know the real story? No. Yeah. Lie to me. Yeah, I really do. Yeah, no. Okay, so the Pride Month thing, again, got very contentious. And the decision was made a couple of years ago. Look, celebrate Pride Month, that's great. Government will stay out of it. You celebrate whatever months you want. Do you not acknowledge any months there anymore? There are some months we don't want to do. But again, understanding the question of the power disparity. Again, it's a, hey, man, people got upset about it. It wasn't, was it mandatory?

21:27Did everyone in Utah have to wear a unitarter? No, they did not. And dance? They did not. No, they did not. What I will say is, the Fidelity Month piece of that, that was not intentional. That was something that came out in April. We said, that's great. And we didn't know it was coming out in June. And that, so. Oh, so, so, so, Fidelity Month is not a place. We did not switch Pride Month for Fidelity Month. Although that's how it looked. And I understand why it looked very bad. Does Utah have a Fidelity issue that they would have to... So you was like, every month is Fidelity Month. You would hope so. Oh, it's fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would think... It's really more than Jersey and New York. I've been here for a couple days. It's fun. It's something. Yeah, man. It is different than Utah. You know what? We are going to change that to our new tourist slogan, New York. It's something. My man, I appreciate you.

22:27Thank you. And I appreciate you having these conversations in good faith and good spirit. And that is, I will say this, we need more good faith argumentation. And that includes being able to discern the contemptible and to discern when things are being weaponized in the opposite direction. And I do appreciate it. And I urge people to read it because it is an interesting read. And it's a fascinating look. And I really do appreciate you. Thanks, Your Cuts. Good God, everyone. You thought you were going to remember that. I mean it. Thank you. What's up, everybody? So my guest tonight is a best-selling author and staff writer at the New Yorker whose latest piece is called Our Plastic Surgery Nightmare. Please welcome Geo Tolentino. You're welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. Thank you for writing me. You're taking a pen? Yeah, there we go.

23:27Thank you for writing a New Yorker article that didn't take me six months to read. You're so welcome. You're safe there. Let's start with your 2019 New Yorker article, which coined the phrase, Instagram face. We're going to read a poem. You're going to read it. Thank you for writing a New Yorker article that didn't take me six months to read. I'm going to read the phrase, Instagram face. And then we'll get into your latest piece. What is Instagram face? So I think it was about a decade ago where probably I was not alone in noticing that kind of all of the most visible women on the internet had started to morph into the same face. This kind of singular thing was emerging. It was a face that intrigued me because it was a face that seemed to have been kind of contoured by the algorithm. It was dictated. It was a face that people would click on and like. And people were kind of getting it slowly on mass. And so I wrote about it because it seemed then like the most visible fulcrum of this larger thing that was happening in which the corporate incentives of trillion dollar social media

24:30companies were beginning to seem to many people like deeply personal desires. And all of this was just written on the face in a way that was interesting. Well, this piece, the latest piece you call our plastic surgery nightmare, but it really focuses on the face. What is it about the face? I'm looking at your face right now. You're looking at my face. If you have a face, listen to this answer. Why is that the focal point? So historically, as far back as ancient times, right? I mean, the face, we love looking at faces. We love looking at faces. We love looking at each other's faces. We're New Yorkers. We like to sit on the train and stare at each other. The face, you can gather an enormous amount of human information about someone. Their temperament, their life, their selfhood, their soul. The face is the portal through which all of this information is given to us and that when we love looking at each other and reading each other's faces.

25:32And in the last few years, it has started to feel to me more that the face is being kind of denuded of human information and is serving on social media, especially through our phones, more as a kind of a disciplinary guide and kind of a consumer manual. People's faces, they're beginning to look kind of nuts. Yes. People's faces are looking nuts. Look, you obviously stare at people's faces on the subway. I stare at their calves. For Jets, that's it. You just don't get as much information from someone's calf, but what's strange about what you're saying, the face is this portal to our soul, to our experiences, to our adventures, to our loves, yet what everyone's doing to them now is they're eliminating all that stuff. Yeah, and the thing that is interesting to me is that these faces are ostensibly becoming more beautiful, right? All of these, the face, the version of Instagram face

26:32that's emerging, you know, I mean, people are also, things have escalated, right? People are fully getting kind of head transplants, you could say. Yeah. Like, people are just, ages are being invented, that have never been invented before. Like, these wild things are happening. But what's striking to me is that, you know, when I say the face that people have now, like, we can all probably picture that face, right? It's not, it's a face that the algorithm, that Instagram, that TikTok, that social media has deemed beautiful, insofar as extremely profitable. Right. But it is not a face that humans take pleasure in. It's- I mean, it's laughable sometimes when you see the face. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that kind of place. That kind of flexible. Yeah, but what has changed in plastic surgery that's made this more, is it more approachable for everyone to change their face or is it just that we are seeing so many more images than we used to? I used to go to the grocery store with my mom when I was a kid, and I would see three magazines, right? And you would see the women on the magazine,

27:34and that was kind of it. But now, a kid has seen thousands of images. Right. Has plastic surgery become more approachable to everybody too? Well, 10 years ago, when people were starting to get an Instagram face, it was still kind of a coastal elite and celebrity thing, the sort of injections that would make everyone look like a higher-grade like a hybrid of Kim Kardashian, Emily Radikowski, Bella Hadid, Kendall Jenner, you know, this singular, I mean, Michael Hosta, yeah. That wasn't a joke. Why is everybody laughing about that? And now, it's- it is- it's democratically available. You can corner your injections. You know, like it's- it's quite democratically available. But the- and it's part of this larger thing where we were saying, like, what has happened with phones and the sort of larger regime of- surveillance and broadcasting that, again, is this enormous profit center for tech companies that hate us, you know. Right. They can- they put ordinary people in the position of what only celebrities used to be before.

28:34Right. Where the face and the body are a potential source of profit and that they could be looked at at any time, recorded at any time, broadcast, and that the better they look, the more money they would make you. Yeah. This is- we used to kind of formally recognize this is a demented way of living. Right. And now it is kind of the universal one for anyone with a phone and an instinct to self-broadcast, which is most young people in many of us, maybe. Right. People are being more transparent about saying, this is what I had done. I mean, you'd write about this in the article, tweeting out, this is what I had injected. I shuttered at that. But is- is this transparency better for us? What's your thought on that? I- I wrote this in the piece, but I- I think of, you know, it's a bit of a recursive circular whirlpoolish nightmare where it's like, you know, oh, it's good that people are disclosing so that we will know what they do so that it can be more approachable for us to do too. Right. And then on and on and on and on. It's- it reminds me a little bit of kind of a land acknowledgement.

29:34It's when a celebrity acknowledges plastic surgery, it's like acknowledging the unjust system that you are about to perpetuate just a little bit more. Right. Right. And this isn't just women. Yes. Uh, so feminism has one. Men are now obsessed with beauty and looks. Yes. Uh, talk a little bit about looks-maxing. I- truly, this was- this was something I did not know about. Believe it or not. Uh, how was this infiltrated male culture? When I was in my 20s and I was working for all the feminist media that no longer exists, it- it seemed to me that- It seemed to me that- Take that, man. That- that, man. Um, who really won now? But it's- but it seemed to me that there was this broader impulse to designate everyone as beautiful as if it was politically important. Right. And I remember at the time in my 20s having this feeling inside me, it was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, it should matter less. Like, actually, it's de-escalation that would be- that would free us.

30:36Right. It would be- And so what we have now is not that, you know, the- the- the previous decade of more mainstream feminism, freed women from beauty work, you know, de-escalated the situation, it merely escalated for men. So now everyone is living in the nightmare. Right. That has existed for women since, you know, like mass commercial beauty industry. What you write about is these men, one of them hitting his jaw with a hammer. Let's not say his name. Let's not say- I don't- yes. Um, but what's sad about it to me was you used to care about your life. You used to care about your looks so you could try to have sex. That was the whole thing. What happened to that? That was the whole thing. I know. Maybe I'll work out so I can- I can get laid. But now it's- maybe I'll- I'll deform my face so I'll get more likes. So I can get more Twitch streams followers. Yes. Whatever. Call it on Twitch. Yes. It's strange to think- it's strange to be looking back. Those men out there, sex feels good.

31:38It's- I mean, it is so strange to be having this discussion in 2026 and thinking like, what happens? It just wants- like, these are not pure- these are not noble impulses, right? Yes. Like, me wanting to look at a beautiful person because it's not- because it feels good. Right. Because it brings me pleasure. You know, us wanting to become more attractive so that we can have more interesting sex with a more interesting person. Right. Like, it's- it's wild that that now feels kind of- it feels quaint and beautiful. Yeah. Because that's the thing. This- the- the regime of the- of the- the looks-masters, which grew out of a reactionary right wing. Men's rights. Right. In cell kind of conglomeration that rose on the internet last decade. It is- it's kind of- it configures beauty as something you do to- to display dominance. Right. Sex is something that maybe can be acquired as a commodity, but it's the way they speak about it is not pleasure. It's not human pleasure. Like, the- the whole concept of human pleasure that our bodies and our faces

32:38and each other's bodies and faces bring us just as people existing in the world. It's- it's absent entirely from the new regime of this kind of- the only- the only- the only one that is- the only entity that is loving it is the phone. Is the phone? Well, that's where this all either started or leads to. I mean, caring about beauty and looks didn't start with the cell phone. Certainly not. But it's hard to not read your work and not get more and more angry at the phone or tech. And I wonder how we arm ourselves to be better or to deal with that in a more optimistic way. I think, you know, the- there's a way that this is manifesting really specifically with AI, right? If you ask the- the consequences of all of the most visible women on the internet having the same face become really obvious where if you ask an image generator to show me a normal woman they will show you a white thin, conventionally beautiful young woman with Instagram face, right?

33:41AI through that framework, through that- you know, through- through that structure of seeing. If you are not optimized and beautiful, you are scarcely human and you scarcely exist. And I think that- Let's f*** up. And I think what we can do is we can- we can- we can strive at the very least. I mean, we both have children. And we- and I think about this with them, it's like I, you know, they're going to get lost in the sauce. We all get lost in the sauce. But one of my few real hopes for them is that they retain the ability to look at the world and other people, including themselves in it, and see them the way that a human would see them. And not that the way, not the way that a phone would. And something as simple as that, kind of excising the phone vision within ourselves seems worthwhile and fun. Yeah, I mean, let's try to live- the phone is an amazing tool.

34:41I mean, you can- you can order a car, you can order food, you can transfer money, you can- I mean, f***, how do you even parent without a phone now? Like, my school is sending me updates. The WhatsApp group is- I like- I don't- I didn't see that I'm staying off my phone. Yeah, exactly, but it's really scary, and I think it's really helpful. I know I've called your work scary a few times. It's meant to be a compliment because it should be waking us up to potentially what we are dealing with. I want to talk about Mar-a-Lago face for a second, because- It's so beautiful. They're all looking like the same robot. Yeah. Like, it's strangely- it's strange that our president of the United States lives in this place, and all the women are having this robotic face, and I can't help but think- Not just the women, Matt got- Not just women, yeah. Sorry. Don't leave him out. Don't leave him out. Don't leave him out. But it also has this relationship with tech, like the- the humans are becoming the robots. I just wanted to say that. Well, I- I enjoy Mar-a-Lago face, because I do take an enormous amount of human pleasure in it,

35:44because it is quite funny to me. Yes. It's- it's an amazing exemplar of gender-affirming care and administration that is opposed to it. Love that. And- And we love- you know, we love to see them support gender-affirming care. Yes. Yes. And it's also, you know, it- it- it- Mar-a-Lago face- it's almost- it almost feels quaint to me now, because these days, you know, people can get six-hour facelifts and come out looking exactly like they did 35 years ago. Mar-a-Lago face is just so profoundly artificial looking. Yeah. That it's like, oh, this is actually beautiful. You're showing the work, you know? Right. At- at this point, I appreciate that. Right. It's- And it kind of bears the same relationship as I wrote to, you know, it- The- the Mar-a-Lago face- there's the same relationship to reality that the administration does in general and so- Yes. And so it- it's all very fitting and coherent. Um, lastly, can- are we so far in that it's impossible or can we change our beauty standards to appreciate more human flaws, wrinkles, scars, receding hair- like, you know, you watch

36:48a movie from the 1940s, all the men- it is receding hair- like. They almost look more handsome now to me and I'm just- maybe I'm saying that because it's going. But- Can- can we- can we change some things? I think- I think that following the sort of access of pleasure, just our deep human physical instincts for pleasure as- as viewers, but also as producers, we'll get us really far. And now I think we all- we all watch movies from the olden days, such as the early 2000s. And we see beautiful people with beautiful faces that are just actual faces and we feel that it feels better than watching a lot of faces now. And I think we can follow, like, that's the way out. We- people don't- people don't like what's happening to faces. You can- like, if you say to anyone, like, isn't- it's- it's kind of nuts what's happening to people's faces. Everyone knows exactly what you're talking about instantly. Yeah.

37:49We want- I think we have to remind ourselves as the entire AI sort of regime wants to dictate that what- whatever is human is inferior for being imperfect. Yeah. I think we just have to remember that for a very, very long time we believed that actually it's our imperfections that make us interesting and human and worthwhile. And we know that about our friends, we know that about our partners, we know that about our children. Yes. And I think we can know that about strangers and people we see through our phones too. I hope. I hope anyone under the age of 21 is hearing this saying, our imperfections, that- that is what makes you interesting and special and someone that you want to be and hang around. That's my opinion. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. You're welcome. Our plastic surgery nightmare is available to read at theNew Yorker.com G.A.T.O. and Tina. Welcome back to Daily Show. My guest tonight is a Tony award-winning and Oscar nominated actor who stars in the

38:50new film The Uprising. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Hey, hey, hey, hey. How are you doing? How are you doing? Hell yeah. I mean, I hate to tell them that that is the whole movie. That's what he's talking about. You almost didn't even get here. You were on a, you had a plane situation. What happened? We were downed in, that sounds remarkable. That sounds remarkable. That sounds remarkable. That's what matters. You're okay. You're like shots fired or anything like that. There was like a smell of smoke on the aircraft and we were brought down in Albuquerque, New

39:55Mexico, which I would highly recommend to have. So you had to spend some time there? A whole day in Albuquerque. Okay. Airport. Not the whole day. It was, we realized that, you know, with these things, you get told one thing and then they apologize and say it's actually going to be 18 hours later than what was going to happen. It's kind of like the king in this movie. Thank you for bringing it back to me. I want to know what we're talking about. So you're in Albuquerque. Yeah, and it was, you know, have you ever had like a huge delay where you feel so bonded to the people that you're like your, your old Tom Hanks in the terminal kind of thing? And you're all just like getting to know each other in a deeper way than you even know your own family kind of. Wow. There was something really sweet and kind of bonding like instant, strange community of suffering in Albuquerque. But to the point where we, I was traveling with someone I work with and we had enough time to go bowling.

40:55We had an outside to like leave through security and do like four games of like four rounds of bowling where we were like betting because she actually started beating me and I was like, you know, she's my assistant. Isn't really, really sweet, wonderful person. And I was like, if you beat me, I will, I will pay out. But if I beat you and she owes me like $120. That's going to say, I mean, I would think an assistant should be losing. Just like on purpose losing. I don't go bowling with my assistant, but I don't have an assistant. How's your bowling game, solid? It's, you know, I was, I ranged between a 90 and 120. Yeah. It's like very, very in the middle. My high is a 1-11, which is kind of embarrassing, but anyways. Let's talk about this film, which I don't even think bowling had been invented yet. When this film took place in the late 1300s.

41:56Yeah, these guys didn't have much time, leisure time. Yeah. There was, there were being taxed. Yeah. So it's a, it's set during the peasant's uprising, which was a true historical event in 1381 in the UK. It was the first major kind of popular uprising. And it was a time where there was a small group of oligarchs who were hoarding all of the wealth and all of the resources. 1381, 1381 in a country f***. Don't worry, this could never happen here. And, and a kind of general population whose souls were being squeezed to the point where they were felt like they were being treated like animals, like vermin, like completely worthless, like, like stripped of dignity to the point where, as you saw in that clip, it was, you know, the, the person I play is representative of thousands upon thousands of people who, it's post the plague.

42:56So 50% of the Europe have been wiped out by an epidemic. Again, 1381. Nothing could ever possibly happen cause to the, the whiff. Safe guys, everything's fine. The peasants can't afford the newest iPhone. How familiar were you with the story ahead of time? We learn about it in school. Oh, okay. We learn about it through the perspective of the, the people who kind of write history, which are not the common folk, which are kind of the oligarchs who say, weren't we great and how we raped and pillaged everyone? So, so, so it was a really incredible story to be told through, yeah, ordinary people who, who kind of band, band together to kind of fight for very, very basic human rights. And it's, it's a really powerful, it does feel like a very, very powerful thing for now. It's excellent. It's very powerful. I couldn't take my eyes off the screen.

43:58It definitely resonates today, you know, which is interesting. Yeah. Scary, really kind of frightening that it resonates. Yeah. So deep, when I read it, I felt like, I think it's very hard right now. I'm sure you feel the same way. How do we keep up with the uncertainty and the forever changing nature of our world? And, and how do we as creative people, artists kind of speak to the, the current issues that we're facing? And when I read this, it felt like a bit of a cry of the soul. It felt like, oh, this, this feels like the closest thing I've read to being, to feeling like it's a very long, long distance mirror of where we are now and how out of joint the world is and how difficult it is to say how out of joint it is. And, and, and, and then what do we do about it? I wake up every morning and I'm like, has anyone been held accountable? For corruption or abuse of power? No, the day, day, day 1,569 of that not happening. I guess that's just normal now. The little bit of corruption that accrues over time is, or a lot of corruption is, is just

44:59kind of weirdly accept. I feel like I'm going mad. Yeah. I feel like we're all going mad. It's true. I mean, I'm going mad. It's true. It's true. I never know if I should feel comforted that history has done this before. Yeah. Or if I should just be more angry that we keep doing it. Should we do both? Should we do both of those things? I feel like, I feel like anger, I feel like anger right now is kind of one of the only were like heartbreak and anger is the only like logical response that we can have. And I do feel reassured and hopeful because it's a cycle. Like the idea that the world, I don't think that AI robots are going to kill us, maybe some of us, but like not all of us, you know, if we can get on the submarine with Zuckerberg will be fine. But like, no, no, but I do feel like there's this kind of, yeah, you look through our history. It's a cycle and we do seem like we're at the part of the, we're living through an interesting part of the cycle where the world has no center.

46:02But everything is falling apart so it does require individuals, namely us, to find our own centers in the middle of a centralist world and bring that center to the center of the culture and start planting seeds for the new world that will be built when this **** is a **** show is over. Yes, and that's great. And historically, that is how each one of these things changes. Because people become aware they understand the past and then they plant these new seeds. This character, the plowman, is very empathetic. I mean, he's trying to do the right thing. He's dealing with grief and sadness, but you also just finished playing Sam Altman in a new film. Well, I like him in the beginning of the center of the center of the center of this universe.

47:07Yeah, I just have it. And that's really? You know, it's the third set of that character. You know, I actually likedpop music, I you We love pop rock music and we were having some fun at Church of the Middle Ages. We had so many fun moments. all of us in unconscious ways, probably enacting that wound in us on other people that we are not aware of. And I don't think any of us are any exceptions. And that's why I think I love being an actor's because it is an empathy machine. You get to try and close the gap between you and anyone in the human race. And I find that very, very interesting. But yeah, I mean, too, if we're looking at the plowman and we're looking at Sam Orman, we're looking at kind of one of the most powerful people in our current culture, maybe top 10, like winning at the game of capitalism versus someone who's arguably losing at that particular game.

48:11But then if you see our movie, you might be surprised about who is most free. There's something about where the plowman gets to that he sheds any kind of imprisonment to a world that is not for him. It's not for his soul. It's not for any decency in his life. And I would argue that our culture is kind of not serving anybody right now. But particularly the people on top, I feel like there's a terror. And I go, well, why do we need to hoard so much? There's a fear in that. You're right. And it seems like, why are they so miserable? Right. They've won. They've got it all. So it's like, it should be happy. There's a great scene in uprising when your character comes into the castle or the kingdom and just picks up the pen. The feathered pen. And it's almost like he's astonished at the wealth

49:12that is just in the rooms. And it was very powerful. And your characters, it feels like you take them with you as a person. That can be exhausting, no? I mean, I also think of the social network when you played another tech movie. Yeah. What have you learned from tech by being in these films? If anything, I realize films aren't real life. No, well, yes and no ice. But I don't, I mean, I'm just very healthily afraid. I did the social network and I immediately got off of Facebook when I started shooting that. Oh, that's interesting. And I did this film artificial about OpenAI. And I immediately deleted my chat GPT. And I don't really know why. I think it feels like a kind of...

50:15It's a race to the bottom. And I think that there could be alignment. There could be, if there was actual kind of communication and a kind of integrative process that had integrity, the people who are running these companies, valued human life more than the bottom line of their companies, kind of shareholders stock value, then we would have a chance. But it does seem like we're in the part of history when the leaders care about the bottom line more than they do about any human life, maybe outside of their intermediate circle. OK, fine. But did you see Apple's new folding phone? It looks sick. It looks sick. We did consume content on a left screen and not a right screen. Let's talk about outside of acting. You're working so much. Work, work, work, work, work, work, work. But how do you cleanse the soul? How do you feed your soul?

51:16What is it that you do? Yeah, what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? No, but for real. Yeah. I... I... I'm just... I just... What are you reading? I'm going bowling with my sister. Yeah, that's awesome. That's right. No, no. Yeah, I mean, the usual things. I try to read. I try to go and see movies. I've got to see plays, see comedy, see music. Listen to music. Go out. I think life performance is now the kind of the last... I don't know, the most kind of important commodity we have, like, like, life, visceral experience. Yeah. So I feel like that... That's really... For me too, I feel so happy about that. APPLAUSE So I try and have as much life in my life as possible, as much vitality in my life as possible. And, yeah, and honestly, friends, community, family, that is so simple, but, like, nature, the kind of eternal thing... I feel like, I don't know. No, this is good. You got to tell us this stuff. Because it seems like everyone knows it, but not everyone knows. Especially young men. Yeah.

52:16You know, I'm a little bit afraid right now. I want young men to see other young men, such as yourself and yourself, or not that different in age. LAUGHTER How to stay healthy. How to stay positive and optimistic. There are... I mean, I think there are... There are dependable things that are eternal. There is the woods. There is the ocean. There is a walk with a buddy. There is art. There is always going to be tremendously talented and heartfelt people making beautiful... Like, I don't lose hope in humanity, because... I... You can go to any art gallery in any city in the world, and you can go, oh, humans are f**king amazing. That's true. And you can see so much beautiful creativity and proper community. I think that is something that is making a pretty great comeback, is that we're all longing to be able to kind of... cry together. Like, I feel like... Because it's in the moments we're in, it's like the...

53:17the heart breaks and breaks and it lives by breaking. I don't know, someone said that, wasn't me. It's quite a nice quote. It was me, I said. It was you. But there's something... I think particularly for young men, and I'm not... I mean, but I think there's something... I know for me, if I... If I can bring my wounds... and my pain in a kind of self-owned way, to a group of people that I know love me for who I am, not for what I can do for them, or any kind of status, or any kind of power, or anything like that, then I feel connected to life, connected to the world, in a way that feels eternal, and it doesn't feel like it can be taken like that. That feels like a spiritual practice to me. I love that. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Sometimes I have to be reminded that as a man, we have to reach out, and it doesn't always go perfect all the time. No.

54:18You got to keep doing it. Sometimes I'll reach out and I'll be like, that's awful. I'm not reaching out ever again to anybody. Right, right. And now I'm in the basement podcasting, right? Yeah, I'm problematic. That's literally the only thing you do. That's the only response. Are you a tennis fan? You're British. I like tennis. You like blue-links. Are you going to the US Open? I'm going to the US Open, I hope. Yeah. I love when we're doing, yeah, I love tennis. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what was cool with the Alcarez thing the other day? OK. Like, I love Alcarez. I think he is my favorite young tennis player right now. Carlos Alcarez lost to an American in a five-hour match. But he lost so elegantly. It was so cool. He was vomiting into his towel. And at the end, he was smacked, he just had this huge terrible injury. And he was just so grateful that he managed to compete at the level that he did, win or lose. There's something so important about that. What a lesson. Oh, it's gorgeous. To him, the definition of success was I get to be out here trying my hardest. And it reminds me of Simone Biles when she was like,

55:19you know what, I'm going to take care of myself as an ordinary person and step away from my extraordinary abilities for a minute and make sure that I can keep doing my extraordinary shit. But I need to make sure that my ordinaryness is intact when she stepped away from gymnastics. I found that very, very inspiring as well. It was very inspiring. Well, thank you so much for coming here. The uprising is an amazing show. The uprising is in theaters everywhere now. Andrew Scott Deel. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching The Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcasts. Watch The Daily Show, weekdights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central. And stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.