Trump’s Assault on the Free Press

0:00Strix Dirtney is brought to you by Americans United for separation of church and state. It's back to school season and this year five million children across Texas are going to be greeted by the ten commandments in their classrooms. Texas politicians passed a law requiring the ten commandments in every public school classroom, forcing their religion on every kid in those schools. Twenty-eight families in Texas, supported by Americans United for separation of church and state, are taking the fight to the Supreme Court. And we need you to amplify their voices before the Supreme Court gets its hands on this case. They're going to go up, but we're going to fight to get them taken down. That was Texas Public School parent Ted Lowe. Ted and Rebecca Lowe are an interfaith couple, Ted is Jewish and Rebecca is Christian, and their kids are enrolled in a Texas public school. The story they tell in this video is moving and we hope everyone hears and shares it. There is a human cost of Christian nationalist policies like those ten commandments laws and the decisions that the Supreme Court hands down.

1:01You can visit AU.org-4-10C to learn more about this case and how you can help join the fight to protect church state separation. Your sausage my muffin with egg didn't change, you received it. The sausage my muffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just five dollars. The epic Donalds for a limited time. Pricing participation may vary, promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing. A snarle in the woods, ancient forest spirits nip at his heels. He can outrun a force of nature on foot. He needs an instant power machine built for the wild. The only escape is in. The Toyota BZ Woodland off-road handling, all electric power, leave evil in the dust. John Joe stars in. Camping. He's to wild. Test drive Toyota's new all-electric family atro local dealer Toyota. Let's go places. Let's keep justice. I have police report. It's an old Joe. When I argue man, I argue against two beautiful ladies like this.

2:08They're going to have the last word. She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said. I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet. Or for next. Hello, and welcome back to Strixcourtney, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. Wear your hosts. I'm Melissa Murray. And I'm the element, which means we've got two regular hosts here today in the late summer rotation. But don't worry, all three of us will be back together soon, specifically next week. I do think they ought to be grateful that there are two of us. I mean, we can't even find the form right now. If you only knew what was going on in my life listeners, if you only knew.

3:10We're doing this out of love. We love you. And we're so glad to be here together today. Today's episode is going to be some rolleking fun. So buckle up, butter cups. We are going to cover the legal news. And then we are going to have a book conversation with our cricket colleague, Alex Wagner, about her amazing new book, The Steel, four right wing hardliners, one Republican presidency, and the raid on America's courts, titillating, speaking my love language. Totally my love language. I found this book so amazing and compelling. And I actually know how it ends, which is even more amazing. I loved it and I know the ending. OK. And then listeners speaking of endings, we are going to end per usual with our favorite things and it's a doozy. Let's get started. OK. So listeners, you all have definitely heard us discuss a case called New York Times versus Sullivan. Sullivan arose when civil rights advocates placed a full page ad in the New York Times, criticizing the Montgomery Police Department for its treatment of civil rights protesters, including

4:12Dr. Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. The ad contained some factual errors, including the number of times that King had been arrested in Montgomery, honestly hard to keep count and track. And based on those errors, the chief of police sued the New York Times for defamation. As you do. However, in a unanimous decision that is widely regarded as the bedrock of a free press, the Supreme Court ruled for the New York Times and held that in addition to establishing the traditional elements of a defamation claim, those charging defamation also have to show that the false statements made against them were made with, quote, actual malice. If you are wondering, actual malice is actually a very high standard and it allows for the media to make inconsequential mistakes without fear of being hailed into court. At least when we're talking about public figures, but Donald Trump hates this precedent, he's actively called for it to be overruled, Justice Thomas, of course, DTF down to fuck with the free press has indicated he agrees that he should revisit, we should revisit New York Times versus Sullivan and maybe also modernity.

5:16Anyway, the court hasn't seemed that press to do the president's bidding at least on this issue. A few terms ago, it declined to review an appeal brought by Casino giant Steve Wynn that would have teed up the Sullivan precedent for reconsideration. But King Donald needs a compliant press. So without overruling Sullivan, he has pursued other ways to bring the free press to heal. There are, of course, the Murray defamation lawsuits that the president has filed against media entities and his personal capacity. And although he files them as a private citizen, the often result in media companies settling, despite the media companies having strong cases because no one wants to litigate against someone who in his official capacity has the power to regulate you, the media. See what I mean? I do see what you mean. I want to say that there has been a lot of shit going on with regard to the media and there has now been a new development in the president's assault on the free press. On Friday afternoon, the president announced in person and on true social that he is banning CNN, MSNOW, and Politico from the White House, which means that those individuals

6:20who cover the news for those outlets will not be allowed to cover the White House. Take a listen to what he said. Every president takes an oath to uphold the Constitution, which includes the First Amendment. How do you justify? Much more so than you. Because they're fake news, you get so tired of reading and seeing fake news. When you look at CNN, it's just fake. That's why the ratings are no good. When you look at MSNOW, which used to be MSNBC, which some people call MSD and see Democratic National Committee, it's fake news, it's fake news. And excuse me, excuse me. And when you look at, it's Politico. I mean, they got a government, they government under Biden game like $8 million to keep him afloat. And the stories they wrote are fake. So there's a lot of news and there may be others to join them and maybe they can get better and would like to have them. But our country has to have honest news.

7:22Now, just going to say someone spent a whole year writing a book about the Constitution that banding the media, because you think they're mean to you, definitely sounds constitutional. Not. It is not very First Amendment forward, sir. No. But on Saturday morning, MSNOW reported that one of its reporters, a Kayla Gardner and a cameraman, had their White House access badges confiscated and were barred entry. A producer from the network was allowed entry, according to the New York Times. In an statement, MSNOW said that it, quote, intends to take any and all steps necessary to defend our First Amendment rights and the essential role of independent journalism in our democracy. CNN spokesperson for its part said, quote, we have a right under the U.S. Constitution to do that reporting without hindrance or interference from the government. Big, if still true. But as this is suggesting, who needs a Scotus challenge, the president seems to have found a way to sideline the courts and unfavorable law altogether, at least for a certain period of time. I think this is fucking bonkers.

8:22Oh, yeah. This is crazy. Well, again, it's just one of those instances where he makes totally transparent that he's doing this for illicit reasons. We can all see he's doing this because it's fake news, i.e. not favorable press coverage. And he's going to barrel forward, implement it, and maybe some lower courts try to stop him, but he can get a ways with some things in the process and who knows what the Supreme Court is going to do. Well, I mean, so it's very clearly viewpoint discrimination, which tees up a very obvious First Amendment problem. There's also the Jim Acosta precedent. So, you know, there are questions about whether or not there are Fifth Amendment considerations and due process provisions that have to be offered to these reporters before their credentials can be confiscated. So there's all of that. But I think you're right. So this is meant to signal both to big media outlets who have the resources to fight that they should make their coverage more favorable, but also to smaller outlets who don't have the resources that they should trim their sales a bit. It also means that, you know, for those outlets that are inclined to be favorable to the

9:26president, they're even more favorable. Maybe they get better access, which I think is a big deal in a world where they're competing against each other for scoops and whatnot. So this is all bad. It is so out of step with the history and tradition of the First Amendment. I'm thinking of 1735 and John Peter Zenger, who was hauled into court on seditious libel because he was critical of New York's royal governor. Like, it's almost like these folks never read the Constitution. Oh, wait. Can they read? We don't know. But, you know, very into bending the knee. Speaking of bending the knee, folks, it's time for another episode of Game of the Thrones. Back in 2025, if the president ousted the board of the Kennedy Center in what amounted to a Kennedy Center coup, he not only installed his loyalists on the board, he named himself Chairman of the board, something no president has ever done. He then began changing the programming and making it stink. Less drag shows, more kid rock, you get the idea.

10:26Then in May 2025, he went even further and slapped his name on the Kennedy Center's facade. Now, I'm not saying that any of this is correlated, but I will note that ticket sales and donations to the Kennedy Center plummeted and program revenue fell by 16 million and grants declined by 30 million. Again, causation is not correlation, but you should have the information. In any event, mainstay programs pulled out of the Kennedy Center schedule because nobody wants this. In February, 2026, the board renamed its annual gala the Trump Kennedy Center honors. Again, nobody wanted this. The president then announced that the center would close for two years to undergo a complete renovation because, say it with me, folks, this man has an edifice complex. Among many other things. Back in May, Judge Cooper of the district of the District of Columbia issued a ruling declaring that adding Trump's name to the buildings exterior without congressional approval was illegal. He also blocked the planned two-year closure.

11:28His name was temporarily removed from the facade covered with a tarp, which seems right, and I'm hoping we can just do that with this entire period. Just like put a fucking tarp on it. Exactly. Put a tarp on it and a bird. Okay. Obviously, folks, when Judge Cooper issued this ruling, some people took that personally. So the government went balling to the DC Circuit, asking them to make mean Judge Cooper stop telling us to do that. Stop telling us to do that. The appellate court refused the government's request, probably because it was written in crayon. So last week in a court hearing, Judge Cooper rejected the board's latest efforts to justify the name change. Hours later, the board voted to shutter the Kennedy Center immediately, citing severe structural hazards and impending bankruptcy. And then, last Wednesday, the president announced on truth social that the renovation will not happen unless his name is permanently restored to the building's facade. Not evening, he was photographed aboard Air Force One studying a placard that appeared

12:30to be labeled Kennedy Center demolish above an image of a demolition site. On Thursday, lawmakers, including representative Joyce Beatty representing ex officio board members, that is board members who are appointed by Congress and cannot be removed by the president, filed for emergency injunctions after eyewitnesses reported construction crews installing heavy physical barriers and forklifts repeatedly striking the facilities pillars. And on Friday, Judge Cooper issued a directive ordering the Trump administration to provide 30 days advance notice before executing any construction or demolition at the Kennedy Center. Public activist groups have begun organizing a human chain around the building's perimeter to prevent any unauthorized demolition. Again, Leah, what the actual fuck? It's just another example of the Trump administration's attitude toward the courts. They will bulldoze ahead, you know, make the courts stop them and then implement changes that are virtually impossible to unwind.

13:31And they have had this course of action laid out for them by the Supreme Court, which has indulged it. And so it continues a pace. I mean, I love literally bulldozing. Yes. They are actually defiling, right? Like our national monuments are national collective memory in a perfect encapsulation of this administration. All because he wants his name. Oh, first of all, why do you want your name on this so bad? Like, I mean, like this triumphant arch, this Kennedy Center, I mean, like, sir, what? I've read different therapy accounts exactly for what might be going on here. And, you know, I don't know. I don't have an intuition, but yes, it does seem like something that therapy might address. There would be not as much bulldozing of federal buildings if therapy occurred on a regular basis. So it's your knees brought to you by Smalls. Most cat food is filled with water and fillers.

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16:35And this is where it gets interesting. You can see your full credit picture in one place, your score, what's affecting it, and if something needs attention, you can take care of it right there. So before applying for anything, a car, an apartment, a refinance, it makes sense to start with Smart Credit. Go to smartcredit.com slash strict and try it for just $1. You may be surprised to see how many points Smart Credit estimates you can gain. That's smartcredit.com slash strict results may vary. You can cancel anytime. So in other news, yes, remember that time when the president left office and went back to his beach front mansion in Palm Beach, taking a bunch of classified documents with them and storing them in one of the mansions, many gold plated bathrooms. Well, same energy, but now we're going to apply it to all presidential records. In 1978, Congress enacted the Presidential Records Act, which requires presidential documents to be preserved and disclosed for the most part after five years and with a few exceptions,

17:36no later than 12 years after President leaves office. Since it was enacted and it was enacted in response to Watergate, all presidents have complied with these terms. Until now. There was, of course, the unfortunate Mar-a-Lago storage incident, but now the president of the United States is going even further, arguing that this statute, enacted in 1978, is unconstitutional. Why is that? You say it's basically the latest fucked up separation of powers, unitary executive twists that insist that, quote, Congress cannot invade the independence of the president and expropriate the papers of the chief executive end quote. I'm pretty sure he only has those papers because Congress paid for them and gave them to him, but whatever. The argument also draws support from Jody Cantor's recent reporting in the New York Times regarding the papers of Supreme Court justices. We talked about this article a few weeks ago. Basically, Jody reported on how the justices' papers are effectively their private property and they get to decide when and how they are disclosed to the public.

18:40In recent years, the justices, with some coordination from the chief justice, have imposed rules requiring disclosure of their papers relating to cases only after all of the justices who participated in that decision are dead, which means that we will not get the actual inner workings of various decisions until a very long time from now because there are so many young people on the court. And that, of course, isn't great for transparency and accountability and for some people, the absence of transparency and accountability is actually quite appealing. According to the Trump administration, if the Supreme Court can make its own rules about whether and how a justices' papers are disclosed and made public, well, so too should be able the president to do so. If they're above the law, I get to be above the law. They make rules governing themselves. I get to make rules governing myself. Logic. Big, I learned from watching you, John Roberts. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Anyway, the question is going to go before a court. The DC Circuit will hear oral argument on this issue on October 16th, 2026, and the government

19:44has filed a brief arguing that the presidential records act exceeds Congress's authority and therefore is an unlawful violation of the separation of powers. We should also note that in addition to citing the court's practices, the government also seems to be rehashing some of the logic that underlaid the Chief Justice's majority opinion in Trump versus United States, namely that the president has to have virtually no accountability or oversight in order to perform his executive duties fairly and impartially and yet every other president has had no problem, presidenting and abiding by this statute. Weird. Also to the extent that government is relying on Trump versus United States as justification for insulating the president further from the law, it is complete bullshit that the court gets to shroud itself and its decision-making, including in Trump versus United States, in this kind of secrecy. Make them both subject to public disclosure requirements. Speaking of public disloyalism, speaking of public disloyalism, someone probably disclosed

20:49a lot of information that, I don't know, we weren't really ready to hear. And so listeners, if you missed our short explainer pod covering the court's decision regarding the so-called election integrity executive order, you not only missed us dragging Brett Kavanaugh for filth, you also missed a very special breaking news segment in which Leah did doodifully reported that the FBI is going to the dogs. Literally. The beast in me. If you don't know what we're talking about, what have you been doing with your life? Yes, ladies, gentlemen and non-binary listeners in a Senate Judiciary Committee oversight hearing cash that's cash with a dollar sign, Patel, the man who brought the new DEI to the federal Bureau of Investigation announced that he has also made the venerable agency safe for those having engaged in bestiality. Excuse me? Yes, those who previously engaged in bestiality, but are also the victims of said bestiality

21:50because reasons can now be FBI agents, BEI, not DEI, bestiality, equity and inclusion. Folks, that hearing was something. So the Senators grilled Patel about the recent changes that he's made to the Bureau's hiring standards. So let's listen to Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana with some questions that prompted both answers and new questions. Take a listen. What about the bestiality? Same thing, because the regs wrote it up in a fashion before I arrived that addressed prostitution, bestiality and trafficking. They were there before I got there. They were telling me what it should before. It automatically disqualified any individual who participated on either side of it. Obviously, we're never going to hire the criminal. The shine of what? The bestiality? Yes. So you disqualified the animal?

22:51Well, I don't think we have great canines, but we're not going to disqualify. Understand. Yeah. So taking this in the most generous light possible, you know, previously engaging in bestiality prostitution or sex trafficking, regardless of whether you had been the perpetrator of the victim would disqualify you from serving in the FBI now under the new regulations. Director Patel was saying, if you have been forced into engaging in bestiality or prostitution because you were trafficked, you would not be disqualified from serving in the FBI. No, that's not like actually what the new regs say. But what also like, you know, you know that this change, he has someone or some people in mind. Someone is in mind. Who are they? That's such a good question, right? Because this was animated by something and viewed in a generous light. Listeners, you might understand this policy to be a kind of progressive, sex positive, victim forward, maybe even pro woman approach to things.

23:55But then Senator Kennedy stepped into underscore that this is a party that cares about men and only men possibly goats. Take a listen. No participated in bestiality, not as the animal, but as the human. Don't you think he ought to be disqualified? If he voluntarily did it, sure, but if he was trafficked into it, how do you involuntarily do it? And a lot of these cases, when human traffickers who are some of the worst individuals on planet earth, they don't just traffic you for prostitution, they traffic you for degrading acts of all kind and they force you into that type of conduct. Does not matter what the context is. No. These dudes stay on their hustle and the hustle is dudes. How are you talking about sex trafficking, human trafficking and the images you were conjuring are fraternity hazing rituals like what are you doing? It's so unclear. And also I have to say I have been more carefully watching my dog's Instagram feed now because

24:56who the fuck is trying to slide into her DMs? You know, like sometimes you get those creepy messages that I assumed were bots, but what if they were aspiring FBI agents? J Edgar Hoover would never. But he might, but he might. Um, whoo, moving on to other kinks, the homosexuals also had a big week. Department of Justice announced that it will not be enforcing the federal law banning the sale of firearms to 18 to 20 year olds. That decision comes on the heels of a memo from the Department of Justice's Office of Legal Counsel that concluded the statute violated the second amendment. This means that federal prosecutors are being directed not to enforce a law that was Julie enacted by Congress and that the Supreme Court has never actually invalidated. Think about that. The decision could also give adults under the age of 21 access to the country's licensed handgun market. What could go wrong?

25:57The memo maintains that 18 to 20 year olds can vote and serve their country and therefore they should be able to holster a handgun. While the opinion said criminal enforcement of the ban was unconstitutional, it did not address whether agencies like the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives could continue administrative enforcement. The memo stands as controlling legal advice for the executive branch, though it is an accord ruling and does not bind judges or, you know, erase the statute. So what is the state of the law here? Well, the Supreme Court has denied cert petitions asking it to review the constitutionality of state and federal bans for adults younger than 21. However, federal appellate courts have split on whether age restrictions are permissible. Three have struck them down while three others have upheld them. And obviously the court's 2022 brewing decision requires any gun regulation to be consistent with the country's historical tradition of firearms regulation. I will just say that this new memorandum, this new enforcement priority seems designed

26:59to make sure the court takes up this question for real for real. Yeah. The memo was signed and probably also written in part by assistant attorney general T. Elliott Gatzer, who is a graduate of Hillsdale College and the University of Chicago Law School. He is also served as a law clerk to a real trifecta of winners, Edith Jones of the Fifth Circuit, Naomi Rao of the DC Circuit and Samuel Alito. Kayleigh McEnany, the press secretary in the first Trump administration, also named Geyser as the person who floated the notion that vice president Mike Pence could refuse to certify Biden electors in the wake of the 2020 election. Geyser were recently served as solicitor general for Ohio before returning to federal service. Again, what could go wrong with giving an election denier slash election interfere? This power to shape the legal policy and views of the executive branch. And that's not all in the homosexuality beat. The Fifth Circuit always DTF, that's down to fire.

28:01Pew, pew, pew, pew. The Fifth Circuit invalidated a federal law that banned the buying and selling of guns across state lines. Turns out that there were no historical firearms regulations that prevented James Madison from hauling his muskete from Montpillier to New York. Go figure. And obviously that resolves the constitutional question. Now, speaking of allowing 18 to 25 year olds, the ability to make certain choices or not, we have been talking a lot about the upcoming midterm elections and with good reason, a lot is obviously it's taken the midterms, which is why the president of these United States has put his back into trying to get states to redistrict and trying to convince everyone that voting by mail, which is how he votes, is a conduit to election fraud or at least giving his federal government the power to just throw out batches of ballots whenever they so choose, but I digress. The upcoming election is also on where voters in the gem state, that's Idaho, will get the chance to vote on a ballot measure aimed at restoring abortion access in the state.

29:05Idaho's abortion ban was enacted in 2020, but it went into effect after doves as a trigger law. Prohibits abortion in nearly all circumstances with a narrow exception if staying pregnant would threaten the pregnant person's life. The proposed ballot measure, Proposition 1, would enact a new law establishing a state right to reproductive freedom, which the proposition defines as allowing residents to make their own decisions in areas, including fertility treatment, contraception and abortion. In particular, it would establish a right to abortion until fetal viability and afterward in medical emergencies. Notably, the proposition will not amend Idaho's constitution, which means that the state's Republican legislature could overturn it. Now Idaho is pretty solidly read, but Idahoans are skeptical of extreme ban. They're also skeptical of not having regular healthcare access, which is why those supporting the measure have taken a new advocacy approach. They're not talking about how the measure will restore abortion access. Instead, they're focusing on how Idaho's draconian abortion ban has caused physicians

30:08and medical professionals more generally to flee the state in droves. According to The New York Times, in the four years since Idaho criminalized doctors who provide abortion care, the number of obstetricians and gynecologists practicing in the state has plummeted. According to a recent study, Idaho had 268 physicians practicing obstetrics when the ban took effect. In the first two years, the ban was in place. That number dropped to 94, a 35 percent decline, even after accounting for doctors who then arrived in the state. So, even with the advent of new physicians, it's a 35 percent decline. Currently, about half of Idaho's 44 counties lack a practicing OB-GYN. What a great place for the ladies. Indeed. And as the ballot measures supporters emphasize, that has costs for everyone, not just pregnant patients. Idahoans are facing longer wait times, higher costs, and reduce access to routine preventative care. There have been legal challenges to the Idaho law. You'll recall that plaintiffs filed suit arguing that the Idaho ban conflicted with

31:10M.Tala, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act, a federal law that requires hospitals that receive federal funds to provide stabilizing emergency care, which could include abortions to patients. On June 27, 2024, the Supreme Court dismissed the case without making a final decision on the core legal question of whether M.Tala overrode the state ban, leaving in place a lower court ruling that requires hospitals in Idaho to provide emergency abortion care when a pregnant patient's health or life is in serious nature. And that means that there are still questions asked to what would constitute a life-threatening emergency for which an abortion must be provided. Last year, a state court ruled that doctors should interpret the laws exceptions broadly, and that patients could receive abortions if they had health conditions or complications that meant that staying pregnant would threaten their lives. However, the court also said that patients could not receive abortions if they discovered fatal fetal anomalies in their pregnancies or if they had a mental health condition that

32:10made pregnancy dangerous. All to say that this is all very unsettled, and this ballot measure would do a lot to settle things. But Idaho is not the only state where abortion is on the ballot in Virginia and Nevada, states where the procedure remains legal, residents will consider ballot measures that would amend their state constitutions to protect abortion rights. And in Missouri, voters turned out two years ago to amend their constitution in favor of abortion rights. But this fall, they will be asked once more to weigh in on a measure that would amend the constitution again to overturn those same protections. TLDR, midterms matter, get out and vote, and vote always. Another beat on the midterms mattering, we are going to talk a bit about what this administration is trying to do in our names. So the Inspector General released its report on alligator alcatraz. That is the immigration detention facility, the administration constructed in the Florida Everglades to house detainees. The facility houses people in extreme heat and unlivable conditions. Shocking no one, the Inspector General found that the now closed detention facility violated

33:14multiple ICE standards. Chillingly, the report confirms reporting and allegations that detainees were placed in metal cages and in the Florida heat as punishment. The report also notes that the facility flunked several other conditions among the medical care and food service. In other news, a district judge invalidated DHS's final rule on the duration of status for certain visa holders. This ruling blocks the administration's attempt to impose the final rule, which would put a four year limit on certain student visas. That duration limit would have been a huge blow to our ability to supply world class, higher education. The judge wrote that the government's rationale for the new rule was, quote, exceptionally weak, kill surprise. It also noted that the government's contention that the rule furthered national security interests, quote, borders on the absurd again, shocking. According to the court, quote, to the extent DHS engaged at all on substantive issues, its responses were largely disconnected from academic or practical realities.

34:19Yes, that is the same DHS that is headed by no spaces, Mark Wayne Mullen. Yeah. So no real transition here, at least that is immediately coming to mind, except that pro-publica can't stop won't stop with its anti-corruption hustle. So last week it broke the story that among the guests at Don Juniors, Bahamas wedding, one his father couldn't be bothered to attend, was Umar Kremlev, a former biker who is now a Russian ologark with close ties to President Vladimir Putin. It gets even better, or worse, depending on whether you just married Don Jr. So according to pro-publica, yeah, it gets worse. According to pro-publica, Kremlev was not only a guest at the, you know, nupshools or whatever this was, he also was a sugar daddy for the event, footing the bill for some of the festivities. Marka reports that Kremlev spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on Don Juniors, wedding or whatever we're going to call it, perhaps including renting out one of the private islands. Now, speaking of whether this was a wedding, a wedding weekend, or something merely wedding

35:21adjacent, Trump Jr.'s wife, Bettina, disputed the entire account. As she explains, the couple already had a separate private wedding only with family, and that the week on that followed the wedding, quote, was never intended to be our wedding weekend. It was just quote, two incredible nights of celebrations for us after our wedding. That was very generously hosted by quote, our dear friend Umar. And also, this is me, where the new bride wore white to many of the festivities and celebrations as you totally do on your not wedding weekend weekend. Yeah, this old checks out, right? The fact that it happened immediately after the wedding means he didn't pay for the wedding, he just paid for a weekend after the wedding that wasn't supposed to be the weekend after the wedding. It was just like a big party after the wedding that had all of their friends on a private island. Obviously, right? You can easily follow this. I mean, so it's definitely unconstitutional to have a Russian oligarch pay for your wedding, but it's not unconstitutional to have a Russian oligarch who is also your friend pay for

36:23your not wedding weekend weekend. It is not unconstitutional to take a flight to the Bahamas that are chartered out for you by a Russian oligarch right after your wedding, along with however many of your closest friends and a private island, not unconstitutional at all. No, but reading Bettina's account and response made me wonder did John Roberts or Clarence Thomas write her statement because the reasoning sounds an awful lot like the Supreme Court's opinion in McDonald versus United States, which throughout a conviction for public corruption where a governor and his wife allegedly received a bunch of money for among other things and gifts for their daughter's wedding. We're going to take a short break right now, but when we come back, we will be joined by Crooked's own Alex Wagner to talk about her fantastic new book, The Steel. But before we go, do you have your tickets for Crooked Con? We are so excited for Crooked Con and our live taping of Strix Crutney in Washington,

37:24DC on November 6th. Make sure you get your own Russian oligarch to fly you in on a private plane for your not Crooked Con Crooked Con weekend. It's going to be absolutely fantastic. Our live show will be one day before the all day Crooked Con event. So that's two days of amazing programming. We are going to announce the guest lineup for our live show next week and just going to say, thank you guys, you're going to love this lineup. So get your tickets while you still can because tickets are going fast. You can join us for all the juris nonsense you can handle. Head over to CrookedCon.com right now. Strix your knees brought to you by Babel. There are so many vacations where you're so excited to have a great time and you realize I'd probably be having a better time if I could communicate with the people in this city in their native language. And you can't because you don't know how to speak their native language. This is where Babel comes in.

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39:27You know, it would make me even more fabulous if I could say something in French to someone in Paris in the winter time while I was bundled up in my fabulous coat. And I'm going to get there. I'm going to commit to learning the language to make sure that my personal trip is not just personal and fantastic, but absolutely fabulous. And you can do it too. Not learning a new language today with Babel. Right now, Strix Fruit Neal listeners can save up to 60% off at Babel.com forward slash strict. That's Babel, B-A-B-B-E-L.com slash strict for up to 60% off. Rules and restrictions may apply. Strix Fruit Neal's brought to you by One Skin. A lot of skincare makes big promises, but can't deliver. Almost like those folks who talk about reducing gas prices if you'll just give them one more chance. You know what I mean? Well, One Skin is different, and that's why I love One Skin products. One Skin never set out to become a skincare company. It was founded by four PhD longevity scientists who were focused on one thing, skin aging. Quick fixes or marketing trends were never the point.

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41:31Court does are becoming visibly softer and less noticeable. And I like that. But this isn't just my experience. One Skin's results are backed by four peer-reviewed clinical studies. Over 10,000 five star reviews, and they've been recognized by Bloomberg and Fast Company as a leader in skin longevity. Born from over 10 years of longevity research, One Skin is helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age. For a limited time, you can try One Skin with 15% off using code strict at oneskin.co forward slash strict. That's 15% off oneskin.co with code strict. After your purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support strict scrutiny and let them know that the gorgeous ladies of strict scrutiny with their incredibly supple skin sent you. As you know, strict scrutiny has always been a podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. As part of that charge, we have often speculated about how certain justices became the goblins

42:31that they are today. That exactly is their villain origin story, if you will. So Neil Gorsuch, as we've speculated, may be the product of some very serious mommy issues. And Clarence Thomas' views on race and again, a race-neutral constitution may be shaped by his heart's scrabble upbringing in pinpoint Georgia. But what we have not yet speculated on, or done a deep dive on, listeners is the origin story of this goblin court itself. How did we get this conservative supermajority that by itself is responsible for so much of what we are dealing with in our politics and in our lives? But happily listeners help is on the way. Today, friend of the pod, Alex Wagner is here to discuss her book, The Steel. For right-wing hardliners, one Republican presidency and the raid on America's courts, which was released on September 15th. Alex is a familiar voice at Crookit. She is the host of Runaway Country, one of my favorites.

43:34She's also a contributor to pod save America, injecting some much-needed estrogen into that show on a regular basis. And she is also a senior political analyst at MSNow and the author of How the Hell with Alex Wagner on Substock. In her latest book, The Steel, Alex does a deep dive all the way back to 1980 and the election of President Ronald Reagan to give us the Robert's Courts villain origin story. She explains, The Reagan presidency was a time when after decades on the fringes, the conservative right rose to power, and it used that power to reshape American foreign policy from tax cuts to trickle down economics. But as Alex reveals, those outward-facing policy agenda items were just the tip of the iceberg. At the heart of this book is The Reagan presidency and those four right-wing hardliners in their quest to transform not just the American executive, not just the American Congress, but also the courts. And that's where we start today. Welcome, Alex.

44:35OMG. What an incredible intro. So tantalizing. So tantalizing. I owe you, like I'm not having any more kids, but I give you one of the ones I do have as things. I don't want any more kids. I'm good. Well, yeah, more of a person, a blessing. I mean, I love them. No, they're great. I'm just like I'm tired. I'm old and tired. Maybe flowers. Like, let me just flower. I am so honored that I have you, like talking to me about this book. There's literally nobody I would rather talk to about it. You obviously know far more than I do about the law, but I feel like this is a very juicy, very juicy period in American history that has, you know, implications for today, like literally this hour as we await. That's why I had to give you that breathless intro because I read this. This book was propulsive, Alex. I mean, I know how it ends. I was still like, can I stay up late to do this? Can I elevate my cortisol to read this book all night long? I don't know. God bless. God bless. God bless. I worked. It was very, it was a labor of love. I guess we'll call it, but I learned a lot and I do think it was like, you know, it's eye

45:39opening for people who aren't familiar with the origin story of the Federalist Society and the Heritage Foundation, but just also the injection of partisan politics very explicitly into the judicial system. How did you decide to cover this? Like you have done so many things in your career and you've covered so many important topics. Why did you decide to focus on the Reagan presidency and this plot to basically capture the courts? I am like you, Melissa and Kate and Leah, incensed by this goblin court. By the way, excellent descriptor. I feel like I understand the separation of powers. I understand nominally how the founders wanted it. And I think what we are living through is an utter bastardization is two week award, but like a corruption of the judicial branch. And it is so undemocratic. The way Roberts is running it and the way, you know, the opinions we get from Alito and Thomas just make your eyes bleed. They're so out of step with both the Constitution and public opinion and where our society is headed. And it just, I can't, this sounds so sort of rosy the river.

46:42I can't stand injustice and I just feel like the injustice of this particular judicial branch gals me. So I'm very, like it wasn't, it wasn't always like this. So what you just said just reminded me of something. Do you remember back in the 80s when they had those designer impostors like if you love Georgia, you'll love Primo. I mean, Eugene, you love injustice. You'll love the Roberts court. Yeah. Exactly. And if you love bastardizing the Constitution, you'll love the Roberts court. You'll love the Roberts court. You'll love the Roberts court. And I'm very proud of that too. But it was very different than this one. And I vowed I would never write another book because it's such extraordinarily difficult work. And yet I was talking with my book agent and we were talking about this period where you had the dawn of the Federalist society and the origin stories so unusual, people I don't think realize that it was like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I'm not sure if it was the end of the day. I'm not sure if it was the end of the day. I don't know. And the origin stories so unusual, people I don't think realize that it was like a three students who were tired of working with this on campus.

47:43Yeah, I lost all of them. And we ever see Chicago. Yale and Laugh and you Chicago. And there was a professor named Nino Scalia that would help advise them and a professor named Robert Bork. And from there, they were off to the races. But even the Heritage Foundation and the, the, the origin story there and the way in which you know, we talked so much about Project 2025, it began with a mandate for leadership, which was their version of Project 2025 in 1980. And just all these things that exert like outsized influence on our lives as Americans, really were born in this singular discrete period in American history. And once I sort of came to that realization, I thought, well, fuck, now I need to write a book about it. You start off with the dawn of Ronald Reagan's presidency. So morning in America, if you will. And the point of the book, I think is that Reagan's kind of an ancillary figure. Like we think of him as, you know, the father of American conservatism, but he's very quickly sidelined in this story. You describe him as quote, merely a sunny figurehead.

48:45And his sunny nature is actually in stark juxtaposition to the people under him who are literally fused by anger and grievance. Like they are pissed off. Like they've been in the wilderness for so long. And you talk about four very influential men from the shadows. These are Admiis, Paul Wyric, Joe Kors and Robert Bork. And your description of them is absolutely hilarious. You call them quote, a disheveled police enthusiast with a punitive streak. That's Admiis, an ultra religious college dropout with a thing for trains. That's Paul Wyric, a joyless paranoid beer magnet who believed that zip codes were an insidious government plot that's Joe Kors and a testy conservative contrarian who was a one time advocate for the New Deal, Robert Bork. I love this. I could not like best descriptions ever. How do these four men come to be the engine of a movement that ultimately resulted in the capture of the courts?

49:45Well, listen, I think the big picture answer to that is the conservative movement is particularly good at developing generals and foot soldiers who are tenacious, who are unstinting in their focus and who are really patient. And that is something I think, you know, you can read this and it can be a horror story for you, but it also can be a manual for I think what progressives and liberals need to think about as they launch their efforts in the next coming years to reform all the things that need to be reformed, which is patience to nasty. Money also helps. But you know, they did it because they needed money. Joe Kors had a lot of money. Joe Kors beer, you may remember it. I'm old enough to remember the 80s when people were banning, you know, libs, good libs like the ones I grew up with were not drinking Kors beer because of its labor practices. But you know, Joe Kors and his brother, that was just the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. Joe Kors and his brother would enclose literature from the John Birch society with their employees paychecks. Like they were ardent segregationists. They hated the civil rights. They thought what was happening in across the country in the 60s and 70s was like the

50:49trashing of America. And he felt very clear what was happening was like people of color just happening and women and women. And and made clear that he wanted to spend his money on conservative causes. And Joe Kors, you know, there's interesting like sort of side bars that you can go into. Like he worked with a young man named Roger Ailes trying to launch a conservative television station. You may remember Roger Ailes from the stint at Fox News. But one day there's a young staffer that picks up the phone when Joe Kors's money man calls looking for conservative recipients for Joe Kors's money and his name is Paul Wyreck. Who is I think if there's any character that should be a household name who is not, it is Paul Wyreck. I mean, people may have heard of Joe Kors because they know beer. People may have heard of Robert Bork because they remember his failed Supreme Court nomination. And people may remember Ed Mies who is the attorney general, but Paul Wyreck is really the brains of the operation. B.C.'s Reagan as an opportunity to radicalize the right to make it the party of the new right to get rid of like the squishes like James Baker and the sort of mealy mouth middle

51:56centrist conservative Republicans. These will be rhinos at some point. Exactly. This is the early rhino. And Wyreck starts a number of organizations among them Alec, which you may remember from the organization that rights legislation that then gets turned into law, including standard ground laws across the country. He creates something called the moral majority, which is harnesses the power of Christian evangelicals. And he creates among others the heritage foundation. And really understands that people in elective office are often held hostage by politics. And what they really need is a conservative beacon to hold them accountable. And that beacon becomes the mandate for leadership, but also all the activism he does on the outside to ensure that real conservatives pass a litmus test and that they march in a certain line towards the real end goal, which is a rewinding civil rights progress and social progress of the last 20 years. And then of course, there's Edmiss. He's critical because he's actually inside the government and eventually becomes the head

52:58of the justice department. And Edmiss can then bring in the newly emboldened, newly indoctrinated foot soldiers trained in places like the Heritage Foundation or the Federalist Society and make them lawyers in the justice department. And maybe just maybe ensure that one day they become judges themselves. Wait, wait Alex, spoiler alert, does Edmiss tap any young, interprising, fresh, face conservative foot soldiers to put the justice department? Interesting. Foot soldiers that end up in Edmiss's justice department. Among them, a man named Samuel Alito and another one named John Roberts. And Roberts in particular works hard to figure out how to unwind the Voting Rights Act, something he does with alacrity once he's made the Chief Justice of the Roberts Court. But this is the field where these guys are trained. You know, and I think the principle where they are formed. It is. It really truly is. And they need a theologian for this holy war. And that theologian is Robert Bork, who is the M&N on Screase of Conservative Law,

54:03who mainstreams originalism and makes it the doctrine of the new right. And you know, also is, his scuttled Supreme Court nomination turns into a recruitment bananza for angry conservatives. So they all play like essential roles, both inside and outside the administration. And they couldn't happen without them. And I think people don't really look holistically at the collection of strange toys that made this moment a reality. I was surprised that Nino Scalia didn't make it into this pantheon of dysplacidon. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the reason part of I didn't want to focus on Supreme Court justices in part because first of all, there are and will be amazing biographies written about. We get into the Thomas nomination because it's very much an expression of all the work that the right has been doing for the previous decade. But it's, there is great, you know, you guys cover Thomas.

55:04There's amazing slow burn podcast tracing his personal history. There is Joel Anderson as a genius. That is exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And, and, you know, I cite like some of the seminal biographies on Thomas, Jalabrumsens among them. Like there, there's great writing about Supreme Court justices. What I was interested in were the political actors who helped make their ascensions inevitable because that's the less told story. And also, you know, I like politics a lot. Throughout the book, I was like, this should be a movie. Like, I mean, I agree. And that's a credit to you, Alex. I mean, the writing is so gripping and propulsive that I was like, I could totally see Jesse Eisenberg in one of these roles. Is he the, does he have the manner of a formal, slightly constipated owl, a la Paul Wyric? I think he does. I really think he does. It's such an interesting story. And one of the things that I think you convey so clearly is that this is not serendipitous. You call it a steal and you refer to it throughout the book as a heist, but their plan to remake

56:09the judiciary is deeply considered pathologically plotted. And they just stay on their hustle for the long term. So I want to just sort of talk about the various elements that go into this long play. Like, I mean, this is the long game for real. So we know the Heritage Foundation. I'm here on St. Cretan, we talked about the Heritage Foundation's project 2025. We tried to warn you black women trying to tell you they were like, this is what we're going to do. Like, I mean, they tried to warn us. And we were like, man, we on St. Cretan totally believed them. We called it disaster piece theater. But most Americans were just like, what's that? Huh, I don't get it. But they've been plotting this for a long time. So the mandate for leadership was the beginning and projects 2025 is merely the progeny of it. But what was the point of the Heritage Foundation? And what is the point of the Heritage Foundation today when so much of what they were planning and plotting has actually come to fruition? Yeah, they're done.

57:09They can just close up shop. Look, initially Paul Wyorick as a young staffer on the Hill saw the interlinkage between organizations like Brookings and people on the Hill. They understood that they're needed to be connective tissue built between conservative lawmakers and conservative thinkers. And that is the essence of the Heritage Foundation, right? To basically set out the roadmap and then have the yabos up on the Hill execute on it. They don't essentially trust people in office enough to get it done. They think they need it really. I mean, and they're not wrong. And Alec is another expression of that. They need someone to think through it for them, hold them accountable and give them the mandate essentially. And so that's the mandate for leadership, which is a massive book that the Heritage Foundation prints out in time for Reagan's and inauguration. And me, as to his credit, who's charged with transition, make sure there's a copy of the mandate for leadership, AKA Project 1980, on the chair of every senior advisor and cabinet official in the incoming Reagan administration, just to make clear, this is what we're going

58:14to do. And this is how it's going to go. So that's essentially the role of the Heritage Foundation. And something like that hadn't existed in conservative circles up until Paul Wireck dreamed it up on a walk with his wife and saw a sign for Heritage Houses and thought, that's a good name for a foundation. How did we get the Federalist Society? So these are often talked about in tandem, but they are very different organizations. They have very different origin stories, but they come together and complement each other in this quest to execute this heist of the judiciary. How do they work together and how does this come about? I will. If I was going to make a movie, I would probably focus on this because the origin of this kind of buttoned up conservative, like very kind of wonky, I guess, is being forgiven. But fusty organization comes from like a story that everyone who's ever been in college or grad school can understand. Three law school students, Lee Lieberman, Dave McIntosh and Steve Calibrecy, two of

59:16them go to the University of Chicago, one goes to Yale, are in Arlington, Virginia for the summer, and they're sitting around having a late night bull session one night. They're all working internships on the hill. And they're talking about the fact there's, I think we don't clock how much enthusiasm and energy there was around the conservative movement once Reagan came into office. Young conservatives were like, this is our moment. Let's do something big. Yeah. Sort of similar, maybe the analog might be to Charlie Kirk and his campus outreach or in the Trump years, like there was palpable enthusiasm among young conservatives on campus. And they thought, you know, there's no organization that services us. College campuses coming out of the 1970s or a wash and, you know, late night rap sessions and circle, you know, circle discussions with the peace pipe talking about desegregation and civil rights and women's lib and equality. Fuck that. Well, this actually is interesting to me because I could see how like a Steve Calibrecy might look around Yale law school where they're literally just like people hanging around from the civil rights era teaching classes and you could say like, okay, there's no one

1:00:19for me here, although Robert Bork was teaching this. Yes. So I mean, it wasn't like he was completely in the wilderness. But the University of Chicago seems like a place where young conservatives would be very amenable. Yeah. I think it is probably a common, having not been there to talk to them about what their motivations were. I think it was a combination of both we feel alone in some of these conversations. But also we know there's energy and enthusiasm, but there's no formal structure by which we can convene and debate. And that is as it turns out, incredibly desired at college campuses across the country because they have their first symposium, the Federalist Society does in April of 1982 on the Yale campus. And it's like, you know, Politico did some great reporting on this. These were like, it's Woodstock. I call it right wing Woodstock because let's just be clear it wouldn't fucking Woodstock. And people are like Woodstock. Woodstock, they are, they are sleeping on each other's floors on, they're like having

1:01:21late night gap sessions or smoke and cigarettes and talking in Nino Scalia. There's like energy in the air and it becomes such a hit that other colleges and universities start calling and saying they want to set up Federalist Society chapters on their campuses. In attendance at that first summit, if you will, our members of the Reagan administration, people who will all one day end up, including Ted Olson, Solicitor General, inside the machinery of government and serve to, you know, build a pipeline to bring these young, bright-eyed conservatives formally into government. So it's like just an unusual, interesting sort of humble beginning for an organization that has since become, and you can speak to this better than I can, the most important society organization staging ground, if you will, for ascension to the Supreme Court of the United States. No, and again, listeners, we have had on this podcast in the past Amanda Hollis-Brosky from Pomona College who wrote ideas with consequences, which is a history, a genealogy,

1:02:24of the Federalist Society, and it's absolutely brilliant and really lays it out. But the picture you paint, I mean, again, it is very cinematic, Alex, but like these are people who feel completely disaffected, which to me, honestly, as a black woman, I'm just like, dude, what are we talking about? But isn't that what we're dealing with now? I mean, I feel like the essence of the Greek, the true snowflakes, the people who melt are really the conservatives. They're still so angry about not being invited to the party. I feel like so much of American politics and American jurisprudence could be fixed if people who need it therapy would just get it. Sarah, just go to therapy. Like just talk about like, you know, I'm super conservative and no one wants to hang out with me and just talk to someone about it. Like, make a plan. Get some better help. Yeah, I think also maybe go on some dates, like maybe have sex, like I think human connection, feeling loved, feeling touched. Like these are all essential parts of like humanity and we're so close to-

1:03:25But you're claiming to picture again, Alex, and I don't want to- I think they were having sex at right when Woodstock, to be honest. And so maybe that didn't really change anything because look what we got. I mean, I'm not going to say anything. All I know is that there are a lot of reports coming from the Republican midterm convention and apparently allegedly Grindr is going crazy. Right. Okay. Well, so maybe disregard what I just said. Yeah, I just can't blame in- Go to therapy. Go to therapy. It's always good, too. StrictSurney's brought to you by Bookshop.org. Folks, would you be surprised to learn that we are living in the age of the resurgence of independent bookstores? A renaissance, if you will? More than 1,000 new bookstores have opened in the last five years. You love to see it. Student bookstores do more than just sell books. They take care of and pour back into our communities. They create safe spaces that foster culture, curiosity, and a love of reading.

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1:05:41This time with our friends at Crooked Media for a new show called Steel Counting. Numbers are hard, take so easy. And frankly, Numbers have only gotten harder. What does the data actually say? How do we reconcile that with the other things that we're seeing in American politics and around the world? And how do we use that data to understand or maybe even dare to predict the future of American politics? New episodes every Wednesday, starting September 9th. Subscribe to Still Counting on YouTube.com slash at Still Counting Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. So the skill focuses on players who are less well known to us court watchers. So we have the folks that maybe pass under the radar. But you also do note, as you just mentioned, some of our current justices who were literally formed in the crucible of this effort to transform the court and its jurisprudence, what

1:06:43details did you learn about certain justices and their origin stories that would give us a better lens through which to understand their jurisprudence and their work on the court today? Well, I mean, I will say at the risk of like stepping all over the Neil Gorsuch, Slober and series, which I'm obsessed with, I'm sure you guys are too good. The Anne Gorsuch, Anne Gorsuch, Neil Gorsuch's mother is Karella Deville essentially running, like descending into Washington, DC with cigarette and hand and fur coat. I mean, props, like at least she's glamorous, right? And her time in the barrel, paraphrasing Roger Stone, as the head of Reagan's EPA and her summary dismissal or resignation, really has a profound effect on Neil Gorsuch and his desire, I think, that is calcified at this point to fight, fight, fight like hell and disregard your critics is like a very essential part of his origin story. Likewise, and then this is more familiar territory, I'm sure, but Clarence Thomas' drafting

1:07:45into the Reagan administration is really interesting. He's just so adamantly against wanting to have a job that a black man would have. He bears this. He does not want a black job. He doesn't want a black job. He does not want to talk about race. And he despises affirmative action because it's a, you know, he feels like he, it has been an albatross around his neck, both when he was in school and as a professional in Washington, DC and other places. And he is very, he's pissed, you know? He's pissed about race. He's pissed about racial equity. It is a, across, he has born his whole life. And therefore, he realizes around the time that he goes into work for the Reagan administration reluctantly as head of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the EEOC, that if he forks sakes the traditional role of a black man in society, which is to be someone perhaps who understands and holds close the experience of a black man in one's professional

1:08:51life. He sakes that in lieu of conservative ideology, which does not look at the experience and lived reality of black men with any, and find any particular importance or reason to consider it in lawmaking. He realizes he can get far. He can realize, he realizes if he becomes the guy that will be the apologist for racist, like a legislation, he's going to be a real player in Washington, DC. And it is very far from his wildest dreams that he'll become a judge and basically has to be convinced to put his name in the hat to be a federal court judge. And then he becomes one and we know where he goes from there. If you've listened to Joel Anderson slobber and becoming Justice Thomas, this is not unfamiliar. I mean, he does not want to be in the EEOC. That is truly a black job dealing with race discrimination. And it is his mentor, Senator John Danforth, who comes to him and says, I don't care if

1:09:51you think this isn't appropriate. And I'm going to do it. And I'm going to do it. You're going to do it because this is a stepping stone. And you're going to make your name here and then you'll go on. And Thomas has no problem doing that once there is this intervention and the path is laid out and lit for him going forward. But it's just so interesting how he's opposed to sort of using race instrumentally until he's not. And then he's using race instrumentally. And then he rails against the idea of race being used in instrumental in the context of a question. Well, he's full of contradictions are Clarence Thomas. But like I said, therapy, therapy would have helped. Yeah. Well, what so is down? I mean, he goes on a conservative rum sprang where he like self radicalizes with conservative mentors. Yeah. And like really it is a concerted effort to become the man. He doesn't naturally come to it. He makes a decision. This is the life I'm now going to have. This is the person I will be and slips into it, never looks back.

1:10:54Yeah, we've literally like Anakin Skywalker like it is exactly that. Yeah. If only Anakin and Clarence had gone to therapy. I mean, he goes through a remarkable transformation to your point. Like he is one person and then he comes another. And we can't overstate the importance of his fortuitous meeting with Virginia lamp. The white conservative lady who never dares to date a black man, never dreams that such a thing will be possible. And then flips the script on that and becomes, I think, arguably the most important person in, I mean, we talk a lot about Virginia lamp would become Jenny Thomas. For those who are intruded in the Thomas from us. That was like a deep tease. A deep tease. She becomes Jenny Thomas and brings him into a very, very conservative church. And she herself is a, I won't say, sion, but is part of a very conservative family. And I mean, helps with the indoctrination and makes it, I think, a closed issue. I do love, there were news reports about this.

1:11:55The lamps when it becomes clear that Clarence and Jenny are getting hitched. They say something to the effect of like, he was just so nice that we were, you know, we had to accept him. Well, it's so interesting, right? For someone who's so obsessed with this idea of being accepted and not being seen as a black man, he puts himself directly in the crosshairs, whether as a Supreme Court justice or as a mouthpiece for conservatives or as the husband of a white conservative Christian lady whose parents are, I can only assume people who are maybe fans of segregation. Like he keeps putting himself in the most robust testing grounds he can. And I think that further developments has like, you know, Karen, I heard in Sharpen's iron, Clarence resentment. Exactly. Let's zoom out and think about the bigger picture that you articulate in the final pages of the book. So you write Alex, quote, as president Reagan is remembered for Glassnost and Oliver North and trickle down economics, his love of Nancy and jelly beans and the generation of Alex

1:12:57P. Keaton's who emerged in his wake. He is less known for his stunning takeover of the American judiciary. You know, one, why is this aspect of Reagan's legacy so overlooked? Two, when we do appreciate what the Reagan presidency did for the court, why do we think only of the court? Because as you note in the book, this is a transformation from the bottom up, the entire federal judiciary and also state courts are part of the picture too. Speaking in today terms, I think it's hard for us to understand how Reagan initiated a conservative takeover of the lower courts because in the Trump era, the lower courts are almost the saving grace of the federal judiciary, right? Like look at where we are with the Supreme Court constantly at odds with the lower courts. They are seen as the bowl work of democracy. So it's hard to understand that overall the judiciary was made significantly more conservative and partisan, I will say, in the 1980s, given the expression of it right now in this particular

1:13:59moment is one of, I won't say liberalism, but just lawfulness which has become de facto liberalism. I don't think we fully appreciate how the first Trump administration actually did change the complexion of the judiciary. Like very, very significantly. I think the Biden administration is able to do a lot of work to counteract that, but it's all being reinstated in Trump too with the kinds of judges who are being appointed. And so maybe this is just a story that we don't register what's going on with courts. Like when Jimmy Carter died, I did this whole thread on Blue Sky about his impact and diversifying the federal judiciary. And people were like, oh my god, this is amazing. And I'm like, literally, that's what he did. He just never got any Supreme Court justices. So we don't really register what Carter did with the court. I think we do not fully appreciate what presidents can do with the court and what they have been doing because the Trump administration has very diligently reshaped this administration. We may not feel the effects of it now in part because a lot of these cases challenging the administration are being filed in places where there are hospitable, I think, judges,

1:15:03like true rule of law judges. If we branch out into some of these other districts, take Missouri, for example, like don't go to the south. Yeah, I think it might be a different picture. And it's changing rapidly as more and more of these Trump 2.0 judges come online. And they're not even the ones being vetted by the Heritage Foundation or the Federalist Society. Those are certain. Those are the Federalist Society is now to point where there are a bunch of squishers, right? We're now in like a whole new territory of fighters and warriors that are less beholden to law and the Constitution than their predecessors. I will also say I am hopeful that people pay more attention to judicial appointments because the courts just matter so much more than they have in part because Congress has been castrated or self-castrated in some, if you think of the Republicans in Congress. But the legislative branch has been so hobbled that the judicial branch has really taken such a place of prime importance that people are paying attention to it more. You know, like states of Supreme Court races now get national attention. That was the case in the Reagan years.

1:16:06What we, what we, I don't think understood is like the idea of injecting explicitly partisan politics into the judicial selection process into the Department of Justice into the judicial system writ large. That is a confection of the Reagan era. A confection is too light a word, but that is one of the longest lasting legacies of the Reagan years. So is there a lesson for us on this? I mean, the story you paint is so chilling, but it's also a blueprint, right? Yes. And that is, that is also, that is like I think you can, like I was saying before you could read it, you could read this as a horror story that we are now living in the, you know, the after effects of, or you can read it as a blueprint for how the left or democracy-minded individuals can seek to reform the institutions that have been solid or castrated or otherwise tossed a sunder in the Trump years. Are we disciplined enough to do this? I don't know. I mean, I took discipline. I think that's a huge question. You know, I think we need, we need a party of burgos.

1:17:06That's what I think. As a Sagittarius, I disagree, but that's what I would do as a Sagittarius. Anyway, I'm just, I think that the thing that struck me is how, again, they saw catastrophic losses, like Sandra Day O'Connor and the, and the, and the, they thought Sandra Day O'Connor was a loss for them. Really? Yes. Yes. Yes. Liberal. Well, this is what I'm saying. And they were like, oh, they retrenched and kept going. And they didn't lose sight. Yeah. And I think that is one of the biggest takeaways. And I think you need to, I mean, you need to read the book. Is it so good, but also to have the book. Full picture. It's like you, you have to understand the, the sort of way, the, the, the temperament that is required, the funding and the lack of expectation that you'll get any payout, maybe even in your lifetime. That's the thing that, you know, I go back to that AOC quote. She's like, why be president? Healthcare is forever. It's the attitude that I think legislators and activists need to have, that they're in

1:18:06it for the lifetime goals, not the sugar high of an election. People have been asking, you know, what do we work for? What do we do? And I'm like, listen, I'm 50 years old, 51 years old at this point. You look fantastic. Girl, thank you. I'm on Samolito skin carerogy. Yeah. I just literally, like, oiling myself with grievance every day. But, but I recognize that I don't know that I'm going to be around long enough to realize or take advantage of the things that I am working to see happen. And so I think you have to be okay with digging wells from which you will not drink and planting trees. Yes. Who shade you will never sit under. Like you have to be okay with that. And I wish we, like, it requires, I think, a kind of collective mindedness that is very hard to muster at a time where you feel like, like, everyone feels under siege. Yes. It is very hard to be patient when people are losing their lives, losing their, their residences, losing their jobs.

1:19:07I mean, losing so much, there's a, the fear of urgency of now. But the reality is that change, lasting change, takes work and blood and sweat and tears. And it often takes way, way, way longer than anybody would care to admit. So that's one of the takeaways of the book, which ironically is my hopeful takeaway that it is possible. But you have to dig in. That's right. And I think the point is that these were just four misfits with nothing but a legal pad and a dream and look what they did. It took them a long time, but they did it. And we've got four misfits in the Democratic party somewhere. We should really have legal pads. We can do this. Amen. Alex Wagner, thank you so much for dropping by and dropping so much knowledge. This is fantastic. You're the best. Thank you for being a supporter. Thank you for the essential work you do on all fronts. We owe you a debt of gratitude. I'm not going to give you one of my kids because it doesn't seem like a get that seems like more work, but I will send you flowers. I love kids and I love your kids. And I would happily, like you, you can put me down as your in case of emergency.

1:20:09Untie my, I'm happy to be an auntie to to your brood. But listeners, you don't have to be an auntie to Alex's book. You can adopt this book and take it home and make it yours. The book is called The Steel for right wing hardliners, one Republican presidency and the raid on America's courts. And it is just as titillating and tantalizing as that made it sound. It is a must read gripping thrilling and rollicking and you can get it wherever you get your books. I like to get it at bookshop.org. Yeah, baby. You are the best. I love you forever. And now to our favorite things. So among my favorite things is Alex Wagner's book The Steel. I mean, really, as we are leading into the midterms, then the 2028 election, just getting more people to be educated about the right wing takeover and plan and capture of the courts. I just think is essential to building the momentum for pro-democracy changes ideally after 2026 and 2028. Kate Mann had a post on the yesteryear book on her substack and it was everything that

1:21:14I didn't know I needed but absolutely loved it. I just finished watching ponies. Unfortunately a show that got canceled after one season extremely sad. I enjoyed it immensely. And then I also read The Retirement Plan by Sue Hinson-Burgs, which is about a group of 60 some women who decide to murder their husbands to get the insurance money for retirement plan. Tons of twist and turns right all over. Very fun. I'm seeing a theme. Did you? Did you? Like these ladies decided to turn their husbands into wasbans. There we are. I also want to plus one Alex's book. Like I said, I already know how this ends but Alex is such a brilliant writer. I mean, it's so compelling and propulsive. Like you're just like, oh my god, I gotta find out like what happens next. You know what happens next. You know, you can't get an abortion in half these dates. So you know what happened next but it's still an amazing read. So make sure you go and grab it. Another favorite thing this week for me was meeting so many stricties in the wild.

1:22:17I met Patty, Sasha, Joan, and Alex at Grinnell College where I delivered the Wilson Field lecture for Constitution Day. Many thanks to Grinnell, President and Harris and Professor Ed Poehn for the warm Midwest during the welcome. I then headed to Philadelphia to talk about the Constitution and the place where it was born. So shout out to Riley, Caroline, Terry, Ali and the great audience of lawyers at the Philadelphia Bar Association's Bench and Bar Conference. Thank you. But folks, my absolute fave of the week was all the social media, dragging cash, Patel. And I just want to say folks, I have not always been excited about strict scrutiny's migration to YouTube because sometimes you just want to slap on a baseball cap and sit in your podcast, closet and broadcast from there. But this week, I've come to understand the true value of a visual medium because it means that I can share screenshots of the online dragging of cash, Patel with you. So take yourselves over to YouTube to enjoy these little tidbits in their full glory.

1:23:21So first up, one of my favorites comes from At Blair or Skin who is a very funny lady. I believe she is a stand-up comedian who provided us with the following quote, cash, Patel's got that dog in him in the worst way possible. They're so much amazing content. I love this one because it reminded me of a 90s era song. You know, the songs from like R&B in the 90s where there are always dogs barking, you know, like, like, like, freak like me by Adina Howard as a perfect example of this genre. Anyway, and there's this other one from at TV Daryl with two Rs. Cash Patel is in a bar somewhere drowning out his sorrows with a Moscow mule, probably ordered a drink too. Another one from Blair or Skin who was on one. Blair Rayne is this one as tops. A lot of them are really good. That's true. I had a hard time choosing not going to lie.

1:24:22So Blair or Skin writes, dog, get your homework, you're lying, dog, get your ass. I can't even say it. I'll say it. Dog, get your ass. You're hired by the FBI. And then finally, I mean, finally, only because Leah insisted that I limit myself to four from at Liz Warren Austin, number of Haitian immigrants eating dogs, zero, number of Republicans and or FBI recruits fucking dogs, not zero. I had proposed to Leah that this entire show just be nothing but us reading threads in Blue Sky. And nothing else happened this week. I would not have objected alas the universe intervened. Well, the universe intervened and we responded. So that's all we have for you. This week folks were Strix Kriutney. We hope we'll see you at Kriketcon and until next Monday, when we'll be back in your ear holes. See you soon. Strix Kriutney is a cricket media production.

1:25:25Our show is produced by Melody Raoul and Michael Gulsman. Our music is by Eddie Cooper. Our team includes Matt Duproach, Ben Hefkut, Johanna Case, Kenny Mothett, Adam Lippert, and Eric Shoot. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the writer's guild of America East. I'm Nate Silver. I'm Gailand Rook. And I'm Claire Malone. We're back. This time with our friends at Kriket Media for a new show called Still Counting. Numbers are hard, take ser easy. And frankly, numbers have only gotten harder. What does the data actually say? How do we reconcile that with the other things that we're seeing in American politics and around the world? And how do we use that data to understand or maybe even dare to predict the future of American politics? New episodes every Wednesday starting September 9th.

1:26:26Subscribe to Still Counting on YouTube.com slash at Still Counting Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode sponsored by Marathon Sports. Runners know the feeling. That moment when the shoe disappears. Your stride feels smooth. Your breathing settles in. And the run just clicks. That's what Marathon Sports has been helping runners find for over 50 years. At Marathon Sports, their expert team uses the right fit process to match you with shoes and gear built for the way your body actually moves. No guesswork, no generic recommendations. Just real guidance from people who live and breathe running. Whether you're training for your next marathon, getting back into running, or chasing a better everyday run, Marathon Sports helps you find what works for you. Visit marathonsports.com or stop into a Marathon Sports Store today and experience the difference the right fit can make. This podcast is supported by your Southern California Kia dealers. It's hard not to notice how many electric vehicles are on the 405, 101 and 10 freeways these

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