Vladimir Putin's Forkiverse

0:00Hello, fellow moguls. What's up, ledges? What's the opposite of moguls? I feel like that's what we are and are here to talk about. Minions? Like a mogul who just absolutely fails. Like a we work situation. Look, it's easy to criticize when you're not in the arena. I would like to get out of the arena. Please get me out of the arena. At the beginning of this year, search engine launched with fellow podcasters Casey Newton

1:01and Kevin Russe, our own social media network. And now, something fairly unfortunate happened there. Before we get to that unfortunate thing, which is also pretty funny, I want to refresh your memory about how we got here and all. In January, in a moment of unmitigated optimism, we designed our network, starting with its name. We could call it the Forkimmers. I mean, I tried to do a blended name and came up with search fork or hard engine. Hard engine sounds like it belongs on a different internet. That's a Casey Zincognito tab. Why did we do that? Well, not so long ago, people were very upset about Elon Musk's takeover of what was on Twitter. Everybody was fed up with billionaires, the way they'd made social media addictive and polarized with their fiendish algorithms. I mean, people are still mad at those things, but a year ago, people were talking about solutions. And one solution that was flooded that I found very intriguing was that social media might be

2:02better if instead of being concentrated, like just a few platforms owned by moguls, if instead it was really widely distributed. Like, you had all these little platforms that were operated by anybody who wanted to run them, but those platforms could be interconnected with each other through something called federation, a federated internet, a fediverse. This seemed like a long shot, but not entirely impossible plan for an actual better internet. And so Kevin, Casey and I wanted to try it. We wanted to build our own little piece of the fediverse. And so on January 9th, we'd opened the Forkiverse app to any internet stranger who wanted to join, and then we'd waited. It's kind of cool to see an unfilled universe. It's so beautiful to just see it, you know, without any misinformation, any sort of toxic hate speech or bullying. Yeah, many people are saying this is the ideal social network. Really? It's very sad. All of this was documented in the search engine episode called the fediverse experiment. There's a link to it in our show notes.

3:03But what happened was almost 10,000 people joined right away. And they did what people do on social media. Chitter chatter, shared links, made friends. It was a bigger success than any of us had imagined. But the reason we were meeting last week was to discuss a grave situation that had since transpired in our dear Forkiverse. Kevin was the one bringing the news and also catching us up to speed about the events between launch and now. We spent a glorious couple of weeks receiving posts from people participating in the discussion there. And then a few things happened. One was we ran out of room on our mastodon hosting plan. We were victim of our own success. We were victim of our own success. I forget how many gigabytes of storage we had got exceeded by people posting their photos of Forks, which is one of the people. It was a classic Forkiverse activity that everyone loved. People would also post photos of like just where they were when they were listening to our shows.

4:07And that all took up some space. And so we have exceeded the limits of our mastodon hosting plan. Which is good. Good problems, but you know, champagne problems, but still problems, especially because I have not yet built you guys for your portion of this. So I'm just eating this cost on my personal credit card, which does not feel great. I thought this was cheap. This is not getting started. I mean, it's not like I'm still feeding my family to be clear. Yeah, but that is that is really a problem. Yeah, it's it's not the juice has not been worth the squeeze for me in terms of bringing enough joy to my life to justify the expenses I'm laying out for this thing. So that was strike one. Strike two was I would say it just a sort of decline in engagement on my part. And I think both of your parts too, where I just found myself like I'm not checking this thing every day or even every week. I have no idea what's going on there. It's just kind of turning into a ghost town.

5:09I can sort of see the tumble weeds from here. And by the way, I would say that Kevin's participation in the Forkiverse declined precipitously after the announcement or rather after the publication of our episode announcing the Forkumverse. It was sort of like once it had been created, Kevin said, this feels like the right place to say goodbye. It just felt like another feed to me. You know, it's like I spend my life just juggling between these feeds that I have to sort of maintain a regular posting cadence on. And it was just one more feed. PJ, how did you feel? I like I think I may have fought like longer than you, but it was a similar feeling where it's kind of like my complaint about social media is it is addictive. I don't like how I feel about it at the end of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, blah, blah, blah. But it turns out if you make an unaddictive pro social nicey nice social media feed, it's kind of hard for it to compete with the other ones. Like I'd still rather go like read, buy-all on X or a book. But like the idea of kind of the more vegetabley social media I didn't totally work.

6:14I feel bad describing our social media network as vegetabley, but it felt like something I ought to do rather than something I wanted to do. Well, you know, something that I want to acknowledge that I think was really nice about the Forkiverse because I do think that I probably contributed more to the actual posting on it than either of you two clowns. And what I noticed when I would be there is that mostly it was just people who are kind enough to listen to our podcast just coming on to be like, hi, I would like to say something nice to you here is a picture of where I listen to your podcast, here is a picture of a fort. You inspired me to create a project that I would now like to share with you. This was lovely. And so I would say for like a nice, you know, three or four weeks, I was getting a lot of value out of just sort of showing up and it was a little bit of show and tell and it was a little bit of an ego boost. So that part of it was really lovely. But to the end of Casey, how come you found yourself trailing off from it?

7:14Because I can only take so many compliments, PJ, before I say I need to go back to Blue Sky and have somebody tell me to kill myself there. You have to, yeah, you have to take the bad with the good. It starts to feel a little authentic when you're online and people are only saying nice things to it's a bit of a sort of like sick, a fanic chatbot situation where you're like, I'm not sure where this is leading me. I don't want to start, you know, believing my own press. So strike two was that us three founders waned in our excitement and participation in the Forkiverse, a very small strike like Strike One. We're the third strike of the same magnitude. The Forkiverse would undoubtedly have rained for a thousand years. But Strike Three, the one Kevin was about to unveil was the doozy. A strike so big, I realized our listeners needed to hear some ass before we revealed it. After the break, portal combat.

9:04Welcome back to the show without further ado. Strike three. Then came Strike Three, which was an email earlier this month from Jaz Michael King. Jaz Michael King is of course the very kind, mastodon expert who has been sort of emailing us tips since we started this thing, various things like, you know, here's how you create a deny list for kicking people off your server. Just like he's the executive director of this thing called Iftas, which is a federation, federated internet. What is it? It's probably, I'm going to guess the international federation of trust and safety. Trust and safety. So anyway, Jaz Michael King, who's the executive director of Iftas sent an email and I'll just read it. Okay.

10:08Just a heads up. In case you're not monitoring, your Forkiverse mastered on accounts. You have had your first portal combat accounts created on Forkiverse. Now to either of you remember what portal combat is from our early coverage of this. Now, is it, I believe it's a restaurant influence operation? Sure is. It is the name given to a Russian propaganda operation that's more widely known as the Provdyn Network. This is a series of websites and social media accounts built to push pro-Russian news stories that dates back to 2013. It's a very old, very sprawling Russian social media operation. An ancient evil that pre-dates the Fediverse. Exactly. So Jaz sort of gives me some information about the initial account that appears to be connected on the Forkiverse with portal combat. Have you heard from an account known as YXOGYZOGEK?

11:15No, that's the one that led the attack on Huckingface. No, this is the password for the Wi-Fi at the Airbnb that you're checking into tomorrow. So this unpronounceable Forkiverse account has been flagged by the trust and safety folks as being part of this sort of network of Russian disinformation operators. And I just want to share my screen with you so that you can see what this thing is posting because I found it very interesting. I'm so curious. Okay. So here we have the profile for our Russian disinformation agent. This is so straight. It's just a normal picture of a middle-aged white guy. And it looks like he's really stuck. Yeah. I'll say it. He's handsome. He's handsome. He's unthreateningly handsome. And then his name, according to this is YXOGYZOGEK.

12:18And his bias says he's a painter by trade and wood carving by trade. He's not a forced woodcarver. By the way, that expression sounds much better in the original Russian. And then he's posted, I guess, four times. His first post, I'll just read it out loud. Guard bail against have. Okay. Second post, curiosity unlocked. Okay. Third post, 1993. I love Monochrome. Oh, this is a repost. This is a boost post. Some guy is post about an art exhibit. About an art exhibit near the Chicago board of trade. And then the final post is a boost of someone else's post about a restaurant in Ohio. But so how's this guy a problem? I don't understand this part of Porto Comma. He's just being kind of boring.

13:18So Jaz Michael King says that this is what's known as the base account in this scheme. And he says that the methods that this actor uses include establishing an initial account as our friend Wigak-C Zoghek that then invites hundreds more accounts that can sort of bypass the usual new account approval path. And he points to one of these apparent follow-up accounts, these sort of accounts that were invited by this initial portal combat account. Because can I just say if I if I'm honest here was my plan up until this conversation for the Forge of Rose. I was like, because we've had stuff basically the way it was working in phase one is that there'd be like 40 requests from people who wanted to join and I just click them all. And then two weeks later somebody would be like, oh, somebody came in and they're saying something like big and terrible. I kicked that person out. Then it's like, I didn't 40 more people, whatever. And eventually I was like, if I'm not paying attention to this, as long as I don't approve any more

14:21members, we have a community of people who are treating each other well. It's fine. But this guy was saying that this boring handsome guy who's curiosity unlocked, he's got like a hack where he can let more people in without our permission. Exactly. He has the ability to sort of see the network and then invite other people as happened with this follow up account, which is a photo of a woman. And the user name is at Kyle Palmer. Kyle Palmer is a very traditional Russian name. Also very traditional name for a woman. Kyle Palmer woman. She's posted, I use this 59 times. Her bio says, Taylor who experiments with 3638 Bavarian wheat fermentation on weekends. Yes. Now, does she fermenting wheat by trade or by choice? That question goes any answer to the bio. So now if you scroll through her timeline, what she in quotation marks has been posting, this does

15:28look more like Russian propaganda. So post on September 16th, moving from the city to the country side for the winter will not change the situation. If Russia wants to leave Ukraine without electricity in the winter, it will affect all settlements. That's apparently a quote from the head of the office of migration policy, Vasily Musubonyuk. Okay. Then we have some videos of Vladimir Putin. We have some updates on troop movements. It's a lot of it's funny. It looks like there's like gruesome ish pictures from war. Oh, yeah, that's a that's a dead body. Okay, that's not good. Oh, no. We've got some like surveillance footage. Oh, that's like some kind of strike on an administrative building in Odessa, which she seems happy about. Yep. Okay. Yeah. So she really has like one thing to say and it's this is like it's funny. I feel like people are always talking about how Russian propagandists run the internet. I'm going to say I don't run into them. She's totally a

16:30Russian propagandist on our internet on your credit card. I am subsidizing the creation of Russian propaganda. It makes me a little sad that you guys just left the New York Times because the New York Times is Kevin Rusk is paying for Russian propaganda. It's just a much better headline than the machine gods Kevin Rusk is paying for Russian propaganda. Oh, and he is Kevin Rusk is paying for Russian propaganda. Hey, buddy. That's where your tax dollars would have gone. Cool. Cool. So anyway, we have some we have some choices to make fellas because now apparently we are infested with these portal combat disinformation agents. Provda is on the fork of hers. Provda is on the fork of hers. And Jaz Michael King says if if we don't do anything, our local timeline will slowly be taken over by these accounts. And so we basically have to choose. We

17:34could go with option one, which is to basically shut down our server and recommend that everyone on go to this other server find out media, which they say has actual support and people who pay attention to moderation and things like that. Or we could keep the fork of hers up and running, but hand the administrative tasks over to newsmask and if task this trust and safety group, which could clean out the bots and either they call it mothball or just shut down the fork of hers over a period of time. I mean, the latter option feels better to me, right? Because that way nothing changes for our listeners right away. They'll have some time if they want to make a transition somewhere else. They can do that. And I trust if task, which after all does have trust in the very name of their organization to figure out the best way to dispose of the fork of hers. I disagree. I think we should

18:38just pull the plug. How come? I don't think that the fork of hers, as much as we loved it for the brief period that it was part of our lives, is sort of critical infrastructure to anyone. No one has built a small business, drop shipping, you know, forks from the fork of hers. I don't think anyone's going to miss it, frankly. Do you know that? Have you visited it in the last three months? You're very confident for somebody who does not actually use the fork of hers. I mean, I know somebody who'd be sad if the fork of hers ended. Who? Vlad Emir Putin. Why can't I just ask before we make a decision here? Like, why are... I don't think that like the combined Venn diagram of search engine and machine gods listeners are really successful in Russian propaganda? Like, what are they thinking? Why are they here?

19:44I think it just has the basic logic of spam. Go everywhere you can get in. It's like if there's a free place to post on the internet, put your propaganda there, it's very low cost to do it and potentially high upside. Okay, so wait, so Casey, you say, let's try to hand this over to another organization. Kevin, you say, let's just send this dog to a farm upstate. I think we've got to send the dog to the farm upstate. I really do. And as much as I want to continue paying $89 a month for the Galaxy plan on massjot.hosts. I know, bro, I am spending more on this stupid Fediver server than on my cell phone bill. I feel like we're in one of the ads on search engine. Like rocket money would have taken care of the floor for a long time ago. It's true. So yeah, I look, if you guys want to keep it around for a month or two to let everyone sort of adjust and process the news and move to their new homes, I'm fine with that, but I would

20:47also just feel comfortable just shutting the place down. I mean, to be clear, I'm comfortable like today saying, Jazmikel King, you run the show now. I'm just saying, like, give the people on the Forkiverse a few weeks to decide what they want to do before you laterally pull the plug. Do you feel any, do you guys feel any sense of shame about the state of the Forkiverse under our benign neglect? Yeah. I feel like someone has just come over to our house and like found our hoarder collection and is just like horrified by it. And we are basically saying to them like, we can't clean this up. If you want to clean it up, it's your house now. First of all, something like that has happened in my life once every three years. And yes, I feel ashamed, period, and of sentence. And certainly, I feel ashamed about this. And I feel like one of the things that's kind of hard about the federated internet is once you join it, there's a lot of like, I would say 90% the nicest people you'll ever meet, like really

21:48the nicest people you'll ever meet. And 10% these people were like, hmm, I don't think you're going to stick around. I don't think you really love this place. I think you're going to end up with a rat's nest filled with Russian disinformation and disappoint us once again. And I mean, when we launched the fedaverse, we got some angry replies from people saying essentially, how dare you launch this without a pre-announced plan for how you will transition us out of the fork reverse if and when you do decide to pull the plug. And my response at the time was, we are telling you that this is an experiment. We are not promising you that we have created a pillar of internet infrastructure that will be here until the heat death of the universe. We are just trying something and we did try something. And it was a little bit of fun for a little bit of time. And it's okay. If that ends, you know, you go to the fair and you ride the fairs wheel and then you go home. And that was what the fork reverse was to me. I think you're more psychologically healthy person. Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. Exactly.

22:52So you don't feel ashamed, Casey. I don't. Because here's the thing, like you have to try things. You know what I feel ashamed about? Probably within the next two weeks, I'm going to start posting on X again. Something I thought I would never do in my life again. But I have looked around. And after making many that what in my opinion, valiant efforts to try to promote other social networks, I personally lobbied Adam Misari to create threads and posted their near daily for three years. I personally lobbied Sam Altman to his face to just create a different social network to try to move the AI conversation somewhere else. All my efforts have completely failed. The AI and tech and business conversation on X is thriving as never before. And so in order to have any influence over that conversation, I just do feel like I have to post stuff there. Even though I truly never want to go there ever again, that is something I feel shame about. Having tried to create an alternative, that's actually something I'm proud of. Casey got mugs so hard by Elon Musk.

23:52Never seen a harder mugging. How does it feel? Who would have guessed I would lose a fight to a trillionaire? Oh, it hurts. It's beautiful. So in the end, the lesson is slightly cynical one. The lesson is hopeful. The lesson is it's okay to try things. It's okay to have a little fun for a little bit of time. And when that doesn't work, go try something else. Okay. Well, I think I'm the tiebreaker vote here. And I vote we give it a month and then we take the dog up state. Yeah, suck it, Ruth. Oh, it's fine. It's fine. But we should announce it. We should let people know I would want to know they should get to spend some time. So attention is paying for the extra $89 month of posting. I can't believe it's been on your credit card. We are happy to pay $89. I think it's been like $1000 on this stupid thing. That's crazy. Yeah. So before anybody comes

24:55into our replies and it's like, how dare you guys end this? Just say like, did you spend $1000 to create an alternative platform and rescue us from the hell that we're in? Because until you've spent one large, we don't want to hear it. And I like, I planned to expense this to the New York Times before I quit, but then I forgot. You, you still should. I don't have access to the, the like expense software anymore. A.D., if you're listening. Kevin, you want to say your Venmo? I'm on my phone. I also take cash out. Kevin's Venmo is at Kyle Palmer. I'm a very in-weat farmer, but only on the weekends. I would cover my choice. Okay, you know what? I feel so good. Can I just say that is so fucking funny to me? Like, these people have not updated their tactics since 2015. Like, if you go back and you read the first, like, Russian disinformation stories about like these weird things posing as Americans are like appearing on social media, it was all this like super like weird approximations of what American

25:59hobbies would be. It would be like, you know, like my farm and my truck. And I like to brew beer in my bathtub. I'm a real American. It's like, they're still doing exactly the same thing. Yeah, they're like ironic mustache millennials. I've come from the past to try to influence the present. I mean, that's what happens when you ban the entire internet, which is what Russia has basically done since the start of the war in Ukraine. Like, these people are not able to access post 2017 meme. They're still watching Gib-Jab videos over there. Yeah, exactly. They're just waiting in long lines for new memes. Please. Please, sir gay. This month's meme ration. That's Kevin Rus and Casey Newton. They have a new show that premieres October 19th on NPR. It's called Machine Gods. I have a recommend you subscribe. Their feed is already live. The trailer's up. You can find machine gods wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

27:03Machine Gods music is from our very own Armin Bizarrean. I had to have one more conversation about all this. One that was actually slightly avoiding. Before the Forkiverse had started, I'd been greatly aided in understanding the Fediverse by one of its builders, a lovely man named Evan Petromo. And now I had to call him to tell him that we were leaving his vision of a better internet. I was nervous about this. We get nervous about breaking up with your therapist or telling your friend you're moving very far away. That conversation is after these ads. An exited interview.

28:07Ring Central's AI receptionist uses voice AI to answer on the first ring, so you'll never miss a call again. In just a few minutes, you can personalize your own AI receptionist to answer questions, route calls, schedule appointments, and even send texts in multiple languages. Plus, it's easy to scale. Create unlimited AI receptionists across any phone system. It's all powered by one reliable platform for effortless AI communications. See for yourself at ringcentral.com. Ring Central, voice of your business. Welcome back to the show. Can you introduce yourself? Sure. My name is Evan Petromo. I'm the research director at the Social Web Foundation. I'm probably best known as one of the authors of Activity Pub and one of the instigators of the Fediverse. Instigator is such a good way to put it.

29:14I had first talked to Evan back when we were thinking about starting the Forkiverse. He'd been essential behind the scenes. And now I found myself talking to him about ending it. As part of the process, I sent him a recording of the segment you just heard. I'm curious, like, what did you feel like listening to me in Casing Kevin? What did you feel listening to that segment? You know, I'm disappointed. I was really hoping that this was going to be a great experience for you. I am sorry to see the Forkiverse go, but trying to smile because it happened, not cry because it's gone. I feel a little bit sad. I mean, I don't want to overstate it. There's a lot of things happen in the world. But I just feel sad because I think that I keep wanting a version of the internet or a version of my own relationship to the internet that maybe it's just not something to want anymore. And I felt like there are people who the Forkiverse was their doorway into other parts of the federated internet. And for them, it showed them their places on the internet that

30:19could function differently. They could build in a more active way than maybe the internet that they're used to encountering. I think we gave people some of that. And then I think our attention drifted off. And then I would feel bad because there would also be like everyone. So I'll agree for a racist running a mock. And I was like, you're responsible for this thing. I don't know even though it's just an experiment, like one of the things I really love about Search Engine more than or additional to we tried to do great journalism here. We tried to make an entertainment show. I was like, I'm like, we make a space that when you show up, the space feels a certain way. And it really bothered me that I didn't think I was making our community. I wasn't attending to it the way I wanted to be attending to it. Yeah. Yeah. I guess, well, one thing I want to make sure that you know is that like your experience is not atypical at all. I've only got some limited data. But as far as I can tell, about 60% of the sites that are set up on the

31:24Fediverse don't continue. Right. And I guess one thing I'm worried about is that you know, you tried to make a change and it didn't work out in the way that you wanted to. Are you feeling dispirited or discouraged or that's a good question. You should do my job. It is what I've been thinking about a lot. Yeah. I feel both sides of that question. I do feel disperited and discouraged. And I feel like I feel also that part of what drew me to thinking about the Fediverse and the Forkiverse was that there was a kind of moment of a minor pre-camberian explosion after Elon Musk took over Twitter where lots of different ideas for social media were being tried. And with this sort of larger sites like Blue Sky Threads, etc. Micro-blogging sites, I feel like none of those ended up places where I found what I'm looking for. And so yeah, in terms

32:26of finding online community, the thing that social media offered me for a while was that it was this funny room where the people I knew and celebrities I would never meet and strangers I might like. And all these other people gathered together and the anarchy of it was enjoyable and exciting, but like you never knew when you might have a conversation like you really wouldn't expect with somebody you wouldn't expect to meet. And there's a great energy to that. And that time in my life or that experience, I still look for it, but like I think this is a year where I feel more dismayed about the prospect of finding it again. Like the best conversations I have on my phone are text messages and group chats. They're not in these sort of private public spaces. But the desire for community and community where ideas move and people help each other and unexpected things happen. I think I'll look for that my whole life. And I think this year I've

33:30looked for it more in the real world because I struggled to find it on the internet. But the way I am is like I'll look for it in the real world for a while. And then when that starts to feel frustrating, I'll look for it on the internet again. And like I can describe myself as a person who's given up on it. But every time someone says that that feeling might exist again somewhere, I can't help but look for it. You know, I think that maybe the one thing I'd say is like there's nothing wrong with like keep looking for that, right? I don't think you have to give up on that hope and desire just because you tried one thing and it didn't work out, right? I want to ask, are you one blue sky or threads or one of the other Fediverse connected big networks? I'm on blue sky anthreads. So you're still on the Fediverse, right? You have to do a little tweaking and I can send you some instructions on tweaking them. We can stay connected. You may not be running your own service, but at least you can have a a foot hold in the Fediverse. That feels ideal to me because

34:34it feels ideal to to have something that I can every once in a while kind of bop in and see other parties going. If I want to hang out there, but without feeling like, oh my god, all the ice has melted. A bunch of weirdos got in the door and the bouncer's like punching somebody for no reason. Exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for being, you really are such an ambassador of the world of it because like the way you are, which is like civic, curious, open, like the way you are in this conversation is the spirit of the internet I'm looking for. And I think it's part of what made me want to try and like, glad that I experimented with my time in the Fork versus like, this conversation is how I remember things being. And usually when I open my phone, it's not how things are. But I'm glad that I got to meet you through this. PJ, thank you so much. This is a really kind thing to say. I'm glad the internet still has people like you who want it to be the

35:38right kind of place for them. So keep looking, keep searching. Thank you. Keep searching indeed. Okay, so if you are current Denizen of the Forkiverse, we are sharing a link to a Google Doc in our show notes with instructions about porting your account to a new server. Should you want to? You have until December 31st, 2026. On December 31st, New Year's Eve, the rapture will take place. The plug will be pulled on the Forkiverse. If you do not move your account by then, you'll lose your posts, your messages. So if you want to save them, please, you've got 90ish days, fiancees. After that, this particular dream of a better internet will die. Thanks, Vladimir Putin. Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ vote, and Shruti Pinnemenneni,

36:47who's also our show's editor. Garrett Graham is our senior producer, Emily Maltaire is our producer. Theme, original composition and mixing by Armand Bazarian, fact-shaking this week by Anika Robbins, our production intern is Piper Dumont. Special thanks this week to Jazz Michael King at Iftoss, which by the way stands, of course, for independent federated trust and safety. You can learn more about their mission at iftoss.org. Our executive producer is Leo Reese Dennis. Thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey, Rob Merandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Collingay and more current Josephina Frances Kirk Courtney and Hillary Shuff. If you have a business and would like to advertise on our show, please email us. PJVote85ageemail.com subject line advertising. That is also where we take your questions. We are always looking for more questions if you have one please send it in. If you're a listener who would like to hear a version of this show without ads, you can sign up for it in Cognito mode. It's our paid feed. You get ad free episodes, you get bonus episodes, you can find a link to subscribe in our show notes. Your contributions

37:48there are would help us keep this running. Also, if you would like to support our show in a cheaper way, please consider rating and reviewing us on Apple podcasts or following us on Spotify. The algorithms reward those behaviors for their own mysterious reasons. Thank you as always for listening. We'll see you next week.