What Is Post Traumatic Growth? with Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman

0:00If you run a business or handle customer operations across support, sales are marketing. You can start with a demo at 11 that's spelled out 11labs.io slash achiever. Go to granola.ai slash achiever and get your time back and feel organized and clear after the meeting. Go to im8health.com slash achiever right now or click on the link in the description and use code achiever for a free welcome kit. Use code achiever at monarch dot com to get your first year of monarch core half off at just $50.00 head over to shopify dot com slash anxious achiever and start your free trial today. Visit upwork dot com right now and post your job for free. That's up work dot com and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. The anxious achiever your favorite show is available on cast box at cast box dot fm. Cast box is the best free podcast app.

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2:03or use code achiever 50 to save 50% on starter and standard plans for the first three months of an annual subscription. Head to brevo.com slash achiever B-R-E-V-O dot com slash achiever to take your marketing further with brevo and aura that's B-R-E-V-O dot com slash achiever. I'm more errands melee and this is the anxious achiever. Now if you're listening to this show obviously you've heard of Abraham Nazlo's hierarchy of needs right starts with the basics safety food ends at the top self actualization right. Well my guest today Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman S.B.K. as he is known in the community is a humanist psychologist who has studied Nazlo deeply for decades and Scott also studies human potential

3:05transcendence loving the whole being that is our self he's one of my favorite psychologists and he says that we've got it all wrong when it comes to Nazlo actually Nazlo never made a pyramid this is a creation of 1950s management scholars shocking right because when we have a pyramid of things to actually achieve we can check off the box when we've achieved self actualization which is actually not what Nazlo ever intended says Scott instead self actualization the loving and accepting of yourself I like to think of it almost as I understand my values what I stand for the credo of how I show up in this world and I do it without apology or shame is a process we can feel self actualized one day we go home life kicks us in the butt we take a step back

4:06it's a process and that is why Scott has a philosophy and a deep body of research on choosing growth we as humans are never formed we mess up all the time Scott and I are both neurodivergent we talk about that we talk about sticking our foot in our mouth eating our mouth see but we can choose growth we can choose to love ourselves and leave with self compassion this is such a rich conversation I just love talking to Scott I could talk to him forever and I also love how he takes us deep into human centered leadership humanistic psychology and what Nazlo really stood for so enjoy my conversation with S E Kevin well Scott welcome back to the anxious achiever all thanks yeah I really loved our last chat so I'm looking forward to this me too exactly where I was in our last chat because I was in a tiny Airbnb and I was trying to do this setup and it was like me guy wearing everything and and I we got it to

5:08work totally I was in my basement by the cat litter um but I'm not now I have this cute little studio see you so we have so much to talk about as I was I was telling you before we started I have literally four double-sided pages of notes but that's only because I'm really excited because I have a lot I want to talk to you about but I do I do want to start with a project we're both working on but just to give the audience a little overview of where I think we're going to go today who knows if we're actually going to go there is I want to talk a little bit about your work studying Abraham Maslow the Maslow's hierarchy of needs that we all talk about and kind of gap about and why a lot of us don't quite get it right I want to talk about your work on transcendence and post-traumatic growth and then I also would like to speak a little bit about um I think our our shared experience identifying as neurodivergent as neurodivergent leaders I'm wondering or more about your experience

6:13with that yeah and um unlearning shame that's something that you've written about and then you can talk about your new career and mentalism sure that sounds good at all in an hour maybe not you know we'll start um okay so let's start let's start with this book um that that we're both really excited about and I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit about it but um the framework is really around human-centered leadership yes the science of human potential what what is human-centered leadership and why are you passionate about it yeah this is a book that I'm editing with Chris Shipley and is done in collaboration with Silicon Guild and thinkers 50 and we should say what those are for people who don't know contributors from something called Silicon Guild which up to this point has been kind of like the secret society of people um that we're coming out you know we're coming out to help the world and um it's a bunch of uh business authors and thinkers

7:21and people in the technology world and um I think we're all united by the common purpose of wanting to create a human-centered um uh world um and an locking potential in everyone I think and some of the nicest people I've ever met in my life are are in this group um and uh I've been blessed uh to have the opportunity to work with Chris first of all and then all secondly to be able to work with the contributors to um yeah really really craft uh um uh really amazing chapters so yeah that book comes out in I think July and what's the called called the Weeding Humans. What is human centered for people listening out there who like to know that you're a leadership theory what is I mean it's kind of self-explanatory about what is human-centered leadership. Human-centered leadership is um actually we hold on the book is actually called the Weeding for Tomorrow. I was going to say I don't actually think it's called leading you okay. I think I like to try to lead

8:26humans better but all right let's strike that from the record. Let's strike that from the record. We all have our title battles it's okay. I think that's what I wanted it to be called the Weeding for Tomorrow okay um it's not bad not bad though um yeah human-centered leadership is when you really um design um a system around human needs and I'm not just talking about basic human needs like which are very important they are very don't get me wrong but um we're clear about growth needs growth human needs. So I tied this a lot in the forward to the book to myself the metaphor of self-actualization where we have the needs that keep us afloat. We feel like if we don't feel sensitive belonging if we don't feel a sense of connection for self-esteem if we don't feel safe and secure we can feel like we're drowning and we can feel like all of our attention is being put to just make sure that the book doesn't sink. However I also want to emphasize that just being safe and secure is not

9:30enough we have to take risks we have to open our sale if we want to move in the direction of the port we want to sell to so purpose. So growth needs are purpose. Creativity exploration all infused with this pro-social motive for making humanity better and so human-centered education is a consideration of all that's a consideration of human needs the the security needs as well as the growth needs and then you know for really lucky we could talk about transcended needs um but uh it's not every day that we get to transcend. Well no um I'm going to show you someone who is transcending. Oh wow. Oh I'm a baby and I'm transcended um he's climbing on my okay well let's know might be a good time to talk about Maslow. Maslow's a very Maslow's become a household name and um we talk about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That's right.

10:35Different image than a sailboat. Talk about you've you've spent many many months years with Maslow in your head I would imagine you sometimes write as if you're almost in a dialogue um tell us about who Maslow was what the hierarchy or what the the needs and his framework really meant and where sex self-actualization and even transcendence fit. Yeah I feel like I'm friends with Maslow. Yeah when I read you I feel that way. Hmm where he's like a dear friend that I never met and he actually talks in some of his lectures about he had friends from the past um that uh from the past meaning that they're they're no longer alive from the long long past that he says he feels an affinity to and he quotes Spinoza so he felt that too. Spinoza interesting. Yeah that is interesting and I felt that toward him toward Abraham Maslow um and uh I during the course of writing this book transcend I've

11:35met with his only remaining daughter um and his granddaughter um and I read the preface of the book to them and I cried and it was very emotional. Wow but um yeah he was a humanistic psychologist he really spearheaded the field of humanistic psychology in the 60s and what is humanistic psychology I'm just gonna ask you to define terms because you know people are varying. Yeah I think it's important to define. Thank you. Humanistic psychology is the study of the whole person and what it means to live a vital life uh a full of meaning and um and purpose and you know humanistic psychology that the humanistic psychologists were reacting against um two main schools of thought at the time in psychology um in the 60s one was the Freudian idea that all we are are destructive and are sexual impulses um and the behaviorist approach which was arguing that all we are is

12:40whatever environment tells us we are and you know the Skinner we're all just rats in a Skinner box so just to give you some context to humanistic humanistic psychologists we're like hold up make can we study humanity you know is there maybe more to humanity than just two things maybe there's like intentional like responsibility we could take for our lives you know we can we can be the creators of our own life we don't just have to be at the whim of our impulses or our our most debase impulses or environment you know never click that in that way but I like that yeah I love that or our parents frankly it's that's a that's a whole other topic yes requires lots of therapy but but there's but changes possible I mean I think that's a major threat and all of my life's work is you know grow I have a book called Choose Growth that sums up my life's work like we can choose to grow and I'm not saying it's easy we can have lots of days where we feel like we've really fallen

13:46and we're back at square one but it doesn't mean we're back at square one. Maslow said life human development is constantly there's two step forward one step back dynamic we have to keep over writing the fear response and choosing growth again and again up and that's just life and people who try to depict his theory as a pyramid as though life is some video game where you reach a certain level of need and then you don't have to worry about you know grads you've been locked to connection and then you don't have to worry about see it anymore. Maslow he did that way of thinking and never drew a pyramid so that's why I think a sailboat is a better depiction of what he meant and I hope if he was alive he would he'd be like that's clever. If he never drew the pyramid where did the pyramid come from? Came from a bunch of in my view sexist management textbook writers in the 50s and 60s who they deferred I saw the evolution of it because a couple researchers Todd Bridgeman and colleagues

14:48published a really poor paper kind of tracing the origins of it and it started off not as a pyramid but as a step ladder with the self-realized man with a flagpole at the top right like you know like subtle yeah yeah yeah exactly and then and then it morphed into a static pyramid which really fits the or management approach you know you know I will be honest can I be honest with you about something please I've never cared much for the field of organizational psychology before this book that I did I've always started really boring like kind of like solace field in a way and this book has rejuvened not rejuvenated oh that's not where I'm going to do what's was it was it wasn't when it's not rejuvenated but just single juvenile it's a pro-sensitivated okay is that a word no I don't think it's a word it's engendered this is what I was thinking I want to like invent new words to explain exactly what I mean so it's you've been aided love it love it my you know

15:51because it didn't rekindle because I never had it right so it kindled my my I was like wow you know like there maybe we could put the soul back in organizational psychology with this book so I'm really that's one of the reasons why I'm really excited about this book is that like I've I've suddenly got really interested in in in in like the business world and organizations and like you know now I pay attention to business I never paid attention like business books in the bookstores you know like I would always be lying towards like the spirituality section I just like did my vibes that's just my vibes there you know like or like self-help you know but but now but now I'm suddenly in this world with this book I'm leading for tomorrow the book I'm a co-author I have a chapter exactly exactly like our book yeah this our book this is this is far more than than than my book and and I'm like wow you know this isn't this is really important stuff you know like yeah being able to talk about business organizations within like a human context

16:57is really interesting so I want to just give you that I well first of all I love that you said that and you know I hope there's no offended organizational psychologists absolutely hope there's no offense yet but I think you know I think that's kind of the point of this book leading for tomorrow of the work that all the incredible you have like household names like Amy Edmondson and then you have you know Schlepper's like me I think that the point is that work is people and work is full of I mean you know work is full of emotion and work is full of mess and interpersonal everything and then work hopefully it can be full of transcendence you know and so I think it's I think it's so beautiful like I love this marriage and I think it's the future it has to be the future it has to be um you know I I feel like the tech titans are taking over uh they're like they're defining man in the image of themselves that's right and that's right

18:02that's a little bit of a scary thing to be honest it's it's really scary and I also have to say one of the things that's really interesting to me this is a little bit controversial but let's go here is that you know when you get to the neurodivergence discussion you know there's a little bit of a movement and as a former progressive political consultant I you know so read these articles where there's a little bit of in Silicon Valley and in the AI world a lot of people are autistic and they are very wonderfully proud of their neurodivergence and there's a little bit of a sense of like supremacy and the sense that their brains aren't just different they're better they're super well they say it they say it point blank I mean there was a uh I forget who it was but a big tech titan um and he just flies to the future belongs to the neurodivergence I think was the CEO of Palantir that's who it was yeah and you know I have conflicted views about that as well

19:04I'm glad he brought that up as an I mean I'm a life well not life type of a long time um activist for neurodiversity and that's kind of my thing but I also want to have a little bit of a nuance here where we still we know have appreciation of the full see what I'm all about is the full appreciation of the diversity of the of humans yes um but I'm not trying to um have supremacy of any one particular kind of mind that's the whole point of neurodiversity in my view is to not have supremacy of any one kind of mind to me that's the whole point yeah no it literally is the point and I think also I think what's so beautiful also is about your sailboat metaphor versus a pyramid is that your sailboat assumes that we all have our own we we we may share a sea but we all have our own boat and we have our own journey and we have our own sails to unfurl it's so beautiful versus this very rigid progression of like am I there yet? Am I there yet am I am I

20:05self-actualized yet you know yeah exactly and we never get there we know we never um we never let become self-actualized you know yeah we don't know because there's always there's always more potential within us I mean do we ever get fully used up that's so interesting I mean I'm not an expert on this but I do feel like sometimes we get self-actualized in a very profound way we know who we are we know what our values are we know the quota by which we want to live we feel we wake up and we're our own person not someone else is I don't know I need to maybe I need to rethink that I always say that it's a I view self-actualization as a direction destination and you know it's kind of like there's like a North Star of who we want to be but I suppose it's possible to fully become who we want to be and yeah I suppose it's possible but it's yeah I mean it's it's it's it's rare it's very rare and it's very hard and then you know what life can bite you in the ass and you're

21:05starting all over again so I guess so to find self-actualized actually do you mind do you have any thoughts I knew who I was and then I discovered the field of magic and became obsessed in a very like autistic like like yeah special interest area sort of way and then I'm like wait that's now who I am so I also want to leave room for us to grow and change and find new things to self-actualize I mean I guess my point is like there's no single self and so you're not self-actualization is not where you you just are actualizing one aspect of you I think it's it you get yourself this self-actualization process never ends because you're constantly discovering new depths of your being well you're meeting new people you're you're learning new things you're yeah I think yeah I think that's wonderful I mean how would Maslow have to find self-actualization what what how would he define it okay he simply equated self-actualization with being fully human he has a footnote

22:14in one of his books I discovered Rie says I regret every using the word self-actualization I hate that term I wish I used to stuck with fully human what why do he hate it because I think for the same reason that I'm saying that the self-actualization process it kind of implies there's a single self and that's not you know he's talking about really being a fully vital alive human where you're operating on all of your highest potentialities and there's many that we had so this the idea of self-actualization I think just like is a narrow way of viewing the self there's no unitary self and you never you never finish I mean I think that's the other thing probably right yeah so so then what is transcendence that's another direction the destination um you know you can because how boring with that like let's say you transcend it and then like what do you do the minute after transcendence take a wrap yeah you're like I'm done but then also you know there's

23:20there's this there's this famous expression which I forgot exactly what it is but it's like you can transcend and then you go you go home for family dinner and there's something about you know your mother that makes you feel like you're like five years old again that's right and like I mean you could be as trans there's there's there's gonna be an Eddie Murphy uh comedy's get about this or something we're like mom I'm transcendent and mom's like yeah yeah yeah like you know make sure you do your laundry right first because you always fuck that up you know before you have mr. transcendent so by here you know but you don't see this gotta be right like there are some like doll the doll armor comes home to the parents mom you know you know mr. big time I mean I think I think the thing that keeps these myths are these I mean I think maslow's hierarchy is a little bit of like an apocryphal thing right it's it's because it's such an appealing idea for us it's an appealing idea to think

24:23one day the hardship of being human and me will just be over that's like what sounds better than that yeah the I won't be dead but it won't be as hard to be me well that's a good point I do think we can all get to points in our lives where we feel comfortable in our own skin um but I think that the context matters a lot you know my friend um angel duckworth I don't know if you've ever had her on your podcast no but I know her work of course beautiful you might want to consider inviting her for her new book um she she wrote this book red and then she realized um just how important uh situational factors matter and so she has a new book out now on the situation and I think that like no matter how comfortably feel in our skin and this relates to my interest in her diversity as well there are certain contexts you put us in where we feel are like our best is being um drawn out of us but we can absolutely put in environments

25:24recently I've been in some environments we won't go to great detail where I felt like I just super awkward like I can't be myself I can't there's not a lot of degrees of freedom to move in the direction of who we really are so I think that no matter what like we can't leave out the equation of being in the right environment interacting with feel comfortable in our own skin yeah yes y'all I just got back from a week at camp that's right family camp at a boy's summer camp up in New Hampshire and I exercised and played sports and did things like a water skiing 50 years old water skiing from morning until evening and I had so much energy and it's because I take IMA IMA is the way to simplify your supplement routine once and for all 16 supplements replace 90 ingredients across nine major organ systems in one drink co-founded by David Beckham and built by leading doctors and researchers IMA it was designed by the world's best 95% of people who tried it

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28:36you have to do the security check like 12 times I care for my mom who has Alzheimer's and I do her logistics so for me I have like double the phone trees this is a system that's broken not just for customers but for call center reps and for companies themselves I've actually interviewed people who work in call centers and they imagine they're answering the same three questions 800 times a day right there frustrated to they want to make great experiences for customers but the technology they're stuck with makes it really hard the system is long overdue for a rethink and that's where 11 agents comes in 11 agents as a platform for AI voice and chat agents that can actually listen understand and resolve customer issues they can look up your account process requests and hand off to a person when needed if you run a business or handle customer operations across support sales or marketing start with a demo at 11 that spelled out 11 labs dot IO slash achiever and see

29:38how 11 agents can fit into your workflows and help build experiences that your customers will actually love 11 labs dot IO slash achiever some of my favorite work is you know the neurodiversity affirming schools movement there's a book that I love so much that I always talk about by Amanda Moran and Emily Kirchner Morris called neurodiversity affirming schools and that's such an important point that they bring up which is that you know it's wonderful to help kids feel good about themselves as they should but we have to create the environments that foster that you know Amanda will say almost it's like a garden and in the garden you have all kinds of beautiful biodiversity but there are certain conditions that allow that biodiversity to to bloom right and um absolutely yeah but I think yeah I think I think so many neurodivergent people across multiple spectrums not just autism but ADHD

30:44schizophrenia which shows self early actually um uh uh bipolar depression feel they just all feel so awkward in k-12 you know and I'm not saying that I mean we all basically feel awkward you know it's like you know but um there's this when you're in it people it's not a good scene when people everyone's in a standardized you know situation it's I have a I have a daughter entering middle school in the fall and I just who boy I have history is my third one to go through middle school um yeah and I think I think the other thing though to your point which I think about a lot with my children with myself is um and this is another thing that that Amanda and Emily bring up is that you know we mask and camouflage as a way to fit in as a way to get through as a way to get power and and what we need and that's okay sometimes you know if it's our choice I think that a lot of times we we are very

31:51unneuonced about all this stuff but part of being neurodiversity affirming is also helping people understand that if it's more helpful for them in the moment like their example with a kid would be like a kid who sort of mimics how the popular kids talk I mean God I used to do this all the time down to their outfits like I would study them you know it's camouflaging but like that's a survival technique that we employ it can be exhausting and it can have consequences but you know this interplay I mean to me this is the most human centered conversation we can have because it also happens at work so much yeah and as adults it doesn't end there you there could be a great temptation or when you see these popular podcasts or whatever on your Instagram feed and you like as a reminder that you're not as popular as them and then you're like and then you're thinking like oh well like there's this impulse to want to be more like them that's right and the order I get honestly the

32:53more I just keep leaning more and more and more into who I am for better ed worse because you know I say better and worse because the more you when you take that half not everyone's gonna be on board you know like the more that you just like embrace who you really are the more you get like the people in your life that you really want in your life which is great but you have to accept the trade-off that you'll maybe put off some people who like that's not their cup of tea you know and being able to accept that is a beautiful part of self-exercisation journey I think is to really surrender to that trade-off you know oh that's beautiful though that's freedom the freedom to be yourself you know and accept and accept that because because you know there's something really I think I much say I'm profound but there's something there's a point I'm trying to make that I think just gets the heart of like human existence like the self-exercisation journey because I think so

33:55many people are afraid of self there's a it's called the Jonah Complex. Like there's a fear of being yourself of realizing of realizing your destiny so I think most people have made their destiny because they're scared of that trade-off. The people who fully embrace their self-exercisation have I think surrendered to that trade-off which is a rule of a rule like you see it everywhere you see the people who do become popular people the more popular get the more hate you start getting it just comes it's like there's a law of the universe you could be then I don't care if you are you see the Dalai Lama you go in the comment section you know because he's in my head because I'm mentioning him earlier but like you see the comment section of what a faker what it's like what the Dalai Lama like really like no matter who you can be the nicest guy in the there are women in the world or whatever and you know there's have a wall there you know and so you have to accept that

34:58trade-off you have to accept it that you will be impacting so many more people positively and you also will be getting more people who you're not their cup of tea you know I speaking of a polarizing figure I was just listening the New York Times had the 30 greatest living songwriters and on the daily podcast they had an interview with Taylor Swift and one of the things that she said I mean probably one of the most hated figures one of the most beloved and hated figures of our time is that don't go in the comments she tells young artists don't go in the comment section but a little bit of that criticism you can use for your art I almost thought of like a piece of sand irritating an oyster into a pearl you know that a little bit of and she uses this in her songs I think most song singer songwriters do but she she uses the hatred and criticism thrown at her as a fuel for her art and you know I think I spent a lot of time I'm not comparing myself to an

36:01artist or anything but for me you know as someone who has this weird double experience of like I look very like I fit in the world you know I'm really tall but like I'm very like I have a lot of privilege in how I look and present but inside I'm I'm hellinered I'm not gonna hear more about that I'm masking I am like I'm a freaking weirdo in my brain in the best possible way compared to a lot of normal social situations and have always felt that way but I don't necessarily you know I have I have like a very good mask for the world my kids do as well and it's it's it's it's something that I've struggled with because I've always been so scared to be me do you do you mind if I ask you yeah of course what what forms of narrative urgency have you kind of a identified within yourself I mean well I have bipolar disorder okay so I have you know I have a mental illness but I kind of

37:08present in the world like someone with ADHD to be honest like I have a lot of characteristics that very similar except I don't have executive function disorder like I have a very good executive function um especially when I'm hypomanic um so yeah I would say that I always say the wrong thing I always blur at my mind is always going a million miles a minute I just it's just it's just a I'm not organized I'm not linear you're gonna have a lot of people really resonating with that you know like you're you're you're you're you're you're thank you thank you for towing me all this and by by saying this you know you're gonna have a lot of people who feel less alone just by listening to that and so I think there's such a great value in people honestly talking about their struggles you know because you really start to empower others to like not feel so awkward um I mean I resonate with everything you do really at the very least oh have you ever sat in the beating okay I'm

38:12gonna give you this one so you go and then I'll go you go you go you're the guest no I was just thinking of a comedy skit um from um uh what's his name he's the co he was the co-writer of the Chapelle show Neil Brennan Neil Brennan and uh he's he talks about how he is just all he can't help himself he's always worried about that he said the wrong thing he's he's always like ruminating he's I should have said that you know and he he has his joker he's like I'm gonna be in my deathbed and like the my last thought is gonna be oh I knew I shouldn't said that to the nurse you know and I really it's such a great skit and and I know Neil he was he was on my podcast and we actually talked about trying to diagnose him like I had him go through an autism assessment he really wanted to get I paired him up with someone but um anyway it's just like I really resonate with that because and it sounds like you do too like I'm constantly just ruminating on like

39:18because I feel like everything I say is so weird I just feel like a weirdo yep just like in my existence and I don't and it's like you talk about masking and it's exhausting it's exhausting kind of mask you who you are um and so now I just like I own it like I'm just like I'm a weirdo like it's what I am I mean I wear the shirt what I'm wearing the shirt different by design right now I love it which uh like great conference like I I can't read it what does it say neurodiversion conference oh my god that is on my bucket list to go I've never been able to let me introduce you to them I would love to meet that they would love you I did a I did my first ever combo magic show slash keynote um at their conference and it went out so well I have them all you know choose a card from a deck and at the very end they all pull it out the same card that I predicted or that actually sold on the phone predicted anyway it was crazy that's okay well that's really impressive I don't I don't have any of those skills I mean I think I think that the the

40:20rumination piece I mean you know anxious achievers the name of the show like that is our life is the post event processing I had this beautiful retreat with a bunch of colleagues yesterday and spent all of last night in a vulnerability hangover like literally I was nauseous because I thought I was too open nobody else was quite as raw as me I said the wrong things like do they respect me anymore do they like me I was I could literally I couldn't eat my dinner I was so nauseous because I respect these people I love these people and I thought there you go again Mora you just can't be normal like why why are you always the one who has to like push the boundary and not in a good way um I don't know I don't know I've been trying my whole life not to be that person but you know what so much of it as this is what I've discovered at least I don't want to speak for you but I discovered so much of it is in my own head and I think that that was a profound realization there there's just enough experiences I've gone through now where I've unnecessarily

41:26um so this is why I think self compassion is really important I think I went too many years without enough self compassion where I would just room like beat myself up over what I perceived as perhaps something I said that maybe should have said but then in so many cases it hasn't been bad like I would you know like there's no evidence that I it's all it's like in my head that I'm just be and I think that you might be the similar where you cause a lot of suffering at your own hands on this as really unnecessarily you know whereas you could change your relationship to yourself where you show yourself a more kindness and forgiveness that other people are giving you but you don't give yourself yeah and so that was a big I mean that's been a big part of my journey tell us about that Dr. Tellus your aha and tell us how you do it do you have a self compassion practice like your scientist how do you do it well I think that you're really getting in touch with your intentions

42:29important um I want to give shout out to my my my new friend Rikwell Hopkins who's the capacity expert on uh Instagram she's she's blowing up she's really she's really famous now um and we just uh did a course together on rise above um and because of my ADHD I'm trying to remember what point was some compassion some compassion she said to me once yeah she said to me once um because we she's on my podcast and she's she's an African-American woman and you know and um and I wanted to ask her a question but I didn't want it to be I was like can we have an open-ounce conversation about race and like you know race relation and everything and she said you know it's got just trust your intentions and I never I'd never forgotten what she said to me it that one comment like changed my life so yeah if you're hearing that Rikwell you changed my life for that one comment we because of such and and I just want to say we ended up in that part it was one of my the best podcast episodes I've ever had and we had it just such a raw just honest conversation about

43:33what it's like to be a black woman in America what's it like to be a white man in America you know who's like who's Jewish you know and like gets gets reduced to a single identity that I don't want to be reduced to you know because I know white man is the farthest thing from my identity you know what I mean but like some people might reduce me to that and in that hurts I was like that hurts and she's like I totally get it because that hurts when I get and we bonded so much over a common humanity yeah and it all was because of that one comment where she said trust your intentions and I think that's that's my point here that's that's what helped me that I am getting there you know to your question is that I think that if we all realize you know okay where are we coming from with this and and really get in touch with that and and don't be so hard on yourself even if it's not taken in the way you intended because you can't control people they can't control how everyone's going to perceive you you can't control how everyone's going to take but as long as you

44:34know if you're good with God you're good with the with the with the mirror the man in the mirror that your intentions were good because I lead with good intentions and sometimes it's awkward as it fuck you know if I can curse um you know but that's I've learned to not be myself up so much wanted it even those moments were where they are because I can't like force the other person to perceive exactly the way I wanted them to and nor should I like people are autonomous beings you're also honoring their autonomy you know um it's okay not to have complete control over our votes perceptions but I think the best that's the best you can do is what I'm saying show yourself some love and trust your intentions um now the the opposite of that is like if you know you're a bastard you know like that's important information too like maybe you should get touched with that more and change but but if you trust your intentions you know are good and that you're leading with it with a real drive for connection like I did with the requal you know

45:37it often goes well it often goes well does that make sense to each other yes well I think also if she weren't such a healed and compassionate person it's like it's like she's she's also someone who you know isn't gonna as has has evolved on everyone's she's she's so amazing I really I just recommend our moment like follow her oh well okay I want to talk about post traumatic growth great great what do we get wrong when we think about post traumatic growth first can can you define it what it is and you know I think most of us think almost like it's um a burn and then new heat skin healing after a burn healthy skin well well I like to use the um the metaphor of of Kinsuji which is the form of pottery where when something breaks um they put some gold through and um it it actually ends up looking better than it ever was when it's um you know even though you can see it's clearly something so my grandmother when she was alive we used to eat at this restaurant in Philadelphia

46:43called a Lebec Fin and a very fresh restaurant and whenever I you know would get an A or something she'd take take me out and she bought a plate from a beckven right before it went out of business forever she wrote me this lovely little note which is really getting hard to read now after so many years um but I did take a picture of it so that I can you know save it even when disintegrates but I'd I'd made a for lack of a better word I don't know what to put a correct term for me if there's a different word these days but um I had a maid who was helping me um you uh kind of clean my room and they dropped the plate and it broke in pieces and the maid obviously felt really bad and I was like oh don't worry about it you know I'll figure this out and so I found a local Kinsuji store and um and they remade it for me and I think it looks absolutely beautiful back for in Philadelphia so I think this is a great metaphor for the post-traumatic growth

47:44process which is that you you're not ignoring the point here is you're not ignoring what you've been through um I don't want anyone to just shut up or just get over it that's not what my book rise above rising above is not getting over it but it's it's given what has happened to you I can't it broke you know what am I gonna do it broke yeah I'm not gonna also not gonna yell at this port made you feel horrible about right like you know it broke and given that it happened what are you how can you move how can you move forward with your life with purpose and attention maybe even um uh becoming a better human and so yeah that's an example ladies it's really beautiful thank you um you've written um as Austrian psychiatrist Victor Franco put it when we are no longer able to change a situation we are challenged to change ourselves um in recent years psychologists have begun to understand the psychological processes that

48:46turn adversity into advantage and what is becoming clear is that this psychologically seismic restructuring is actually necessary for growth to occur it is precisely when the foundational structure of this self is shaken that we are in our best position to pursue new opportunities in our lives so well that we is that really quote from me yeah I was like that's pretty good yeah you wrote it I know and that funny you're like did I write that that's pretty good okay that it's funny thing to say about oh I forgot I forgot I wrote that I have some self-compassion you're pretty good writer no I was gonna say you know what sometimes I can I can write pretty good you know not all the time um but uh I think it's often when I really make connection with what I'm writing yeah that pours out of me you know um yeah so yeah that I can't I'm not gonna say that he better right now but I but I feel like also you know I worry a little I know that post-traumatic growth is

49:54real and it's been proven well it's been yeah actually there's a deep there's a hot to be in the field of whether or not it's real oh gosh tell me y'all I just got back from a week at camp that's right family camp at a boy's summer camp up in New Hampshire and I exercised and played sports and did things like a water skiing 50 years old water skiing from morning until evening and I had so much energy and it's because I take IMA IMA is the way to simplify your supplement routine once and for all 16 supplements replaced 90 ingredients across nine major organ systems in one drink co-founded by David Beckham and built by leading doctors and researchers IMA was designed by the world's best 95% of people who tried it for 12 weeks felt more energy and that's from a clinical trial conducted by the San Francisco Research Institute I have incorporated IMA into my daily routine for months now and it's given me more energy it made me have fun at camp and beyond

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54:02I think like yeah Adam Grant would argue it's not like I think we've we've fought over this and there's some other well there's other people in the field as well that are starting to argue so I'll get Paul Boomb I argue with all the time about this all Boomb was like well the research suggests that it's not real growth it's perceived growth because statistically we went in we measured and we found that aren't actually better off after the event than before the event they're not actually growing you know even though they think they are it's sort of like a hog gotcha kind of thing and I'm like growing and what measures like what defines growing there's a connection creativity oh god like well measure creativity before and after you know the event and like did you actually increase your creativity okay did you actually get more friends did you act and my argument and I'm still sticking with this is that they're really ignoring the value of

55:04even self perceived growth like to me that's still an important outcome like what is important is your own experience of the world and and the meaning that you get from the world and you have a bunch of these like nerdy scientists that are trying to like strip the humanity from I mean no offense measuring creativity is kind of killing creativity in my book like yeah exactly yeah no it's a good point you know I get the I get the their points but their intentions are good whose intentions are good to our previous conversation the scientists are assuming that oh yeah I agree I agree I mean they they care about you know data they care about you know is this scientifically evidence first post-traumatic growth but I do think that even if and there are a lot of cases where it is real they're saying it's just out as high prevalence as possible as as you know it's not as high prevalence of changes they as the people who who preach post-traumatic growth make it out to be me it's like 7% of people actually change as opposed to like

56:09we're all changing all the time from trauma and so look there's a point there as well which I think that is true it's not it's not the panacea it's not it's not like like trauma is the panacea to growth you know I think that's an important point so I want to give a you know head nod to that to that or point about that but I also want to say that I do think they ignore the value of self perceived of like the internal meaning that we generate our lives that can't just simply can't be measured on a one to seven-legged scale you know so I think there's something else valuable there I mean meaning is self perceived I agree I agree yeah I mean others can't I mean doesn't that we're always telling people others can't make meaning for you you have to find your own meaning and things you know just because you love the cello doesn't mean that I have to become a cellist because that's what a great life is I mean I don't know yeah I I that I agree I agree and it also well this also touches on the name of your podcast

57:16I don't view self-actualization as the same thing as achievement yeah I don't view it as the same thing as happiness either I view self-actualization as its own thing and its own valuable thing in and of itself and a lot of these scales you know it's like there's a more than and there's a less than you know one to seven better is that seven is better than one and so built into all these scales is a hierarchy and a kind of a competition between the one and the two and the seven and the seven and I don't know it's like I am a quantitative researcher so I can't like you know say there's no value to that stuff but I'm also a quantitative quality to reason I mean I'm both you know and I think both have their purpose both have their understanding of a person so what does it mean to choose growth well I really like that masalal quote it's about choosing the growth option you know what is the decision that you're going to make uh that you know is best

58:18for your higher you know aspirations who you who you want to step into who you want to become uh it's usually not the fear of response the fear of the or it's not avoidance it's usually getting outside your comforts um um risking shame I know you wanted to talk about shame yeah let's talk about shame it's about risking shame I mean it's at the people I give don't want to risk shame so they avoid they avoid things at all costs um yeah this reminds me of our conversation a little bit about being your a divergent which is that I think you know I've interviewed many many neurodivergent professionals and leaders and you know I think I think shame is almost not a choice and it's I think to your point like you may sometimes feel like every day you are choosing growth by being yourself and saying what you mean and asking for what you need

59:28and it feels awkward and shaming and hard like I I don't know I I think about this as I get older too it's like I I do live a life where I feel like I try and really try to be authentic and it doesn't mean that at 50 I feel free of all those like bad feelings about myself yeah maybe it yeah you just change your relationship to those feelings that's right yeah it's it's actually a part of you we call them your beautiful monsters um I really like that practice by uh it's snowk the Rinpoche the uh Tibetan monk the handshake practice where you greet your beautiful monsters and you're like I see you and I'm letting you in with some boundaries maybe only on dark

1:00:29side Sundays you know but um it's you know like I see you and you're in the light now and maybe that's what you've changed is that you realize it's that maybe those feelings are never gonna disappear but you see those beautiful monsters and you acknowledge them and and they're part of you now as opposed to disavowing them as not you this is why I don't like the idea of the real self you know something about yeah and then the self-help you know spiritual world always talking about the get in touch with your true self you know it I don't actually like that way of thinking because I don't think there's a true self and I think that it can be um dangerous to think that your true self is only your best self you know I think that we let me take your responsibility for a whole self in the service of um healthy relating and growth I call it healthy authenticity um and yeah so that's that's that's a term that's such a good point right I mean our

1:01:31our true self can be kind of an asshole right so we absolutely we have to we have to we have to take I mean for me you know what I realized and I've interviewed so many this is the the subject of my next book is that the key is saying if I hate this part of myself I hate myself and I don't want to hate myself I want to love myself so I have to figure out this relationship and I think there is that sense of radical acceptance of the piece of yourself um that is never going to feel easier or you know you're not going to be singing it on stage and it is a core piece of who you are and you want to love all of who you are yeah or we six I would say maybe accept all of you you are I don't think acceptance uh necessary means liking uh and what else I also I also don't think loving necessary meets liking oh god are you kidding so yeah so having been married for a very long time

1:02:35I mean yes yes yeah yeah you could absolutely dislike your parts of yourself and you can love yourself yeah yeah um I'm not going to get into the husband comment that's a I think is a whole there can a word but I follow questions about that and my mind is is going towards that I'm not gonna keep that for what we get a drink some day or something yeah but um yeah no I much for you know much respect to you for forst for acknowledged and you can have like what we call being love um being love maso maso distinguished between um needing love and unneeding love needing love is like oh my gosh like I need you to love me you know to fulfill some sort of insecurity that I have within my soul but unneeding love is I love you because uh I like you're being um and I accept you're being for all itself and we can have being love for people we don't like

1:03:41and um staying that we don't being love for besides of ourselves that we don't like um it's a deep acceptance and unconditional sort of um compassion oh gosh that's so beautiful and how does that tie in with with can that be situational and I'm thinking of your work on post dramatic growth you know we um we may hate and resent and be so angry at things that happen but do we how do we keep whole in that process well shame is not the answer see uh guilt is is in adaptive emotion psychopaths don't have guilt it's good that we have guilt you know um you don't want to take the break soft completely that's that's that's not good um but shame is not is not good shame is like the one emotion from our gene pull-its like that's pretty unnecessary because with shame you're personalizing the everything and you're you're making it the whole

1:04:44of who you are and you reduce yourself to the one action that you're shameful for and we should never reduce ourselves to any one action or anything one thing I mean another part of my book rise above is um a point they're trying to make comes from the humanistic psychotherapist or vial and where he says sooner or later you have to give up all hope for a better past and I love that quote because it really indicates that you know we we are not that one thing that happened to us when we were three you know people some people are committed to it to making themselves or reducing themselves to that one thing and you know and I have compassion for those people because I realized they are non-stop ruminating about it and even in old age they still can't stop but but they they should remember that they are so much more than that and um yeah we're all we all contain multitudes we're all you know that's the humanistic psychology approach the whole human you know as we close I promised I want you to talk about your new career as a mentalist this is

1:05:48this is so interesting to go from I would do is I would do a trick for you but I don't know we all know that I could just do a mentalism show for you for your probably I would for good love it I would love it so what is mentalism actually what I did I performed for a bunch of Silicon gilders at the house party at dinner party a couple months ago and Alasim Levine that was like what the oh she was going crazy oh that's what you read on the ground oh my god I bet oh that's fabulous Maria was more subdued in her she was like in what was happening people have different reactions you know um but um yeah so no I mean I just got I got hit by the bug a lot of people who aren't to magic they they'll say it feels like you just you just get it's like an addiction you know I don't know like you got I got hit by the bug because

1:06:49I saw a show in in Vegas the mentalist Jerry McCainbridge and it's inspired he called me up and and he uh he says they were inspired to me and he guessed you know my deepest insecurity I was like wow you know like I can really emotionally impact people and um in that way I was loved Darren Brown the British mentalist and I used to shove his videos in my NYU class before I realized they're all bullshit now I feel a bit bad that I I showed this video illustrating the perception perception cognitive science you know real principles when now I know how he does it any real it ain't real but um anyway we've even learned uh but I you know decided to go through that uh down that rabbit hole and uh and I love it I'm loving that before I'm moonlight I'm moonlight as a uh mentalist I did a birthday party a couple days ago I get I get re-reviews on gig salad oh my god oh my god you the amazing doctor Scott made my daughter's birthday party you

1:07:50know like and I'm like oh you know I love it I'm yeah then I'm the amazing doctor Scott you can find fall be an Instagram my clips what is it what is it what is it do for your like I feel like it's like your brain goes what is it what is it about this this this this work that your brain just like yes well my whole um my whole career is like I've been interested in creativity and wonder and all and this is more of like a direct approach you know like I after I'm kind of over publishing scientific papers and um I left my you know I'm not this my I had my last week as a professor for now um and um to you I'm taking a year off because I want to I get more excited now just like directly creating all and wonder you know the rent peer review journal articles about the science of all and wonder and you know three people read your papers you know um I think we all in this world right now it could use more transcendent experiences that connect us and transcend our

1:08:54differences in a in in copolytics and ideologies and religion all we're such a divisive country right now and I you know I just love to bring people together and for us all to have a collective that's this is my vehicle for a collective transcendent experience but you know musicians have a different vehicle right yeah yeah mediums have a different vehicle um but for now this is my vehicle and um yeah just for people to just like have an alter state of cautionous uh in a world you know uh where there's so much suffering you know even if it's for a few minutes is I think a win yeah I love it I love it well Scott thank you so much this was such a joy thank you yeah I love always a talk me you thank you that's it for this week's show if you like the show follow us and tell your friends and please leave us a review it really helps the anxious achiever get found by people just waiting for our

1:10:00content i'm your host mora errands milley lots more to come in the next episode