When Racism Ruins Everything

0:00Hello everybody welcome to the e-summer calling podcast. I'm your host e-summer calling today. We're joined by Priscilla's Perot Dominguez. I told you I said I got it. I took Spanish you three years. I got a little come on. I'm so comfortable. Yeah, I'm talking about. I don't. I wasn't. I was gonna talk about of you. You know I'm talking about Priscilla. We can do this whole comment. Are you are you are you Spanish speaking? Yeah. Okay, so we too there's two multi-lingual people here and in the monolingo fellow. But he saw let's say a little bit more. I'm not scared about the book. Okay. K-Pasa, Kone, Kone, to Libro. Libro. I got it. Oh yeah. That's really a native speaker. Okay. What's up with your book? That's right. K-Pasa. Mucha school. I just thought the podcast. I said K-Pasa, Kone, to Libro. Libro? Did I never mind? Yeah. I did not butcher it through the lens of a Southern accent.

1:02But I was near a Spanish city. We're near. Yeah. But anyways, speaking of books and now we got it here. She is the author of False Peace. How to reject the lives, sameness, embrace difference, and invite a true unity. And she's also a pastor on the pastoral staff at Renovation. Is that what it's called? Renovation City Church. Renovation. I almost had a Renovation City Church. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We're also joined by Mike, our producer, who only speaks one language in real life. And I've written zero bucks. I don't even know what I'm doing. On this episode. That's okay. You locked in. You got something for us. Yeah. So our first topic, and I think this is the first and holy post history. We're going to talk about Boosey. I don't know. I don't know if he was first. He was initially called little Boosey. Right. But he has another name that we can't actually say. Well, I think we can say it. I think we can say it. I'm not saying it. It's rapper Boosey bad as. Oh, there's a. It's okay. We can bad ass. We can say it. Did you go to put the explicit one? We're not going to talk about like the content of any of his

2:08music. No. But he has been in the news lately. But something that actually think is important. It's where the both cultural and theological reflection. Why is Boosey? Boosey is on 60 minutes. Also, maybe a first in 60 minutes history. That Boosey was on there. But he was on there because he paid a lobby firm $600,000. After being told that they could help him secure a presidential pardon from President Trump. Boosey had pledged guilty to a federal gun charge. And according to this recent 60 minutes investigation, the firm claimed that it could get his case in front of influential people in Trump's orbit. And part of the agreement was that if they could not ensure the pardon that they would pay him back 300,000. So so half. Boosey has not gotten his pardon. Of course. And the two men as part of this consulting lobbying firm, they are refusing to pay back. Now they're trying to claim we never sign a contract. Yada Yada. But 60 minutes did interview these two guys. And they basically said there's nothing wrong with what we're doing that that charging people. It's just like, you know, your chart,

3:12you take a payment for your job. This is our job. People pay us. There's nothing wrong with this. So if I can understand this, Priscilla's. The purpose of presidential pardon is that sometimes there's a miscarriage of justice and that towards the end of the president's administration, he can make a decision to kind of correct that miscarriage of justice. And I think the reason I thought this was interesting. Boosey aside is that what this is actually turning into is yet another pay for play. It's an example of how your money and your resources give you access to or at least for poor to give you access to power. And the idea that this administration, access to the administration is for sale is the exact thing. And here go Yada Yada Yada was playing around when I said this in the Bible. The Bible actually talks about in the Old Testament that judges are supposed to reject the props. Now, obviously this isn't about a judge being robbed. But the idea that the Old Testament was trying to get across was money can sometimes tilt the skills of justice and the blatant industry that exists around pardons where someone can

4:18literally advertise to say you can pay for access to me is corrupt in a way that it is shocking if nobody else cares about this. Like maybe it sounds funny because it's Boosey, but actually think that the corruption of the pardon system is another manifestation of how money has gotten into and corrupted every element of this administration. What's funny to me is, oh, I actually think we've become disensitized because we already know this is happening so much. So there's been a lot of reporting, even one of my favorite podcasts, Pobletory finds out. He did a big report a few months ago on Phil Mickelson. And how Phil Mickelson is going through a similar system of trying to basically cozy up to Trump and some of Trump's best friends to get out of some of this illegal oil drilling and financial manipulation as well as get drilling rights to a place where only Trump has power to give the drilling rights to you. And it's just like another, this is just another example of the pay to play that there's always been a version of this even under previous

5:22administrations. I don't want to say Trump's administration is the first administration that's ever done a pay to play. And yet we've never seen it at this scale and this wide, this much out in the open that they are just like, yeah, this is what we're doing. Go ahead and try to stop us. So what do you think of Boosey saying that his implicit brav didn't work for service? Yeah, I think, I mean, what I'm just hearing and all is it just feels like it can really make people struggle with like, desiring justice when money, money can get involved, right? Like, we can have this hope for justice and fairness, but it's like, what the other day, like, do I even have like a chance? Right? Because like, there's people who hold a privilege of holding, you know, more finances, more money than me than different kinds of people, right? So I think that's what I'm thinking about when it comes to this. So just like, it just makes no room for justice, but it also can like, deplete people's hope for it. Yes. Because then they're just like, well, damn, there's no chance. The system has set against me. One of the things we're dealing with here

6:24locally is there is a community, maybe like, not two miles from where we're sitting now, where they're trying to get a stop light, put up because where they're having a cross, there's often a lot of accidents in those kinds of things. And they've been to the mayor, they've been to all of these people. And historically, they've been, they've been ignored because the people who live there, a lot of them are poor. Some of them are second generation immigrants. And they are the kind of people who there've been three fatalities over the last like 15 to 20 years. But those people from the perspective of the mayor can safely be ignored in my opinion. I need to say that. So holy post doesn't get sued. That's what the producer was saying. It seemed to be the case. But one of the things really interesting is the in in Wheaton, they're willing to put the stop light maybe like a little bit of a quarter to a half mile the other way because that will allow like the fire trucks to serve the service more wealthy neighborhoods to get out quicker. And you can begin to see in real time, like one people, one group was saying like we're actually dying here. And they have struggled to

7:25get the attention of the city precisely because people they they can be safely ignored. And what they've done is they've done this thing called community organizing. They they sound petition if they had all the clergy show up. And so I don't want people to say or hear from this that money always determines outcomes. It does at least to me make clear that our perception that what is happening and these part engineer justice systems are simply an impartial analysis of the law. It is actually money and resources and power shaping and distorting justice. And this will get to some of the stuff you talk about in your book. These are the kinds of things that Christians actually care about. When you're a Christian who's on the other side of this this economic disadvantage. Then having a church that can speak to and address these kinds of things isn't getting into politics. It's actually affecting how you flourish as a person. Yeah, I think so. I think it reminds me a few years ago when I was a youth pastor. I took we did a mission trip to Port Smith, Virginia.

8:30It's near Virginia Beach, but it's what what year did you go? This would have been in 2023. Okay, because I used to live in Port Smith. Maybe we could have come in best friends. Even in the end. But I remember the community group we were working with reiterated to all of us like listen, we don't call these neighborhoods that we work with under privilege. We call them under resource. Because it's not that they it's at the the powers it be have not invested the resources into this community as they have to other communities in the state. And we saw this in Gary and in Anna a few weeks ago when we talked about that story that we just see over and over again, these communities that are not given the proper resources. Meanwhile, the people who already the rich get richer, the people who have the money can now use that money to get even more favor and and an actual privilege from the powers that be so it's free boozey on the e-summer call the podcast. I do think free booze. This is like an example where like you are a scammer and you're just mad that you've got scam. I don't even know what I even know is accused of. I have no idea if he was guilty the actual crime. I need and I'm not going to tell you I'm not Google to see

9:34what the issue was that he already had a prior conviction. So made him a it was a felony and that he took an Instagram live video with a gun in his waistband and convicted felons are not allowed to to carry a firearm arm. So that was the issue. Yeah, I will say this then as as a general final application of this truth. Don't commit crimes on life. You shouldn't commit crimes but don't videotape your crime. Okay, what's our next topic? That's the practical takeaway. Don't commit your crimes on live Instagram. Or I said don't commit the crime but if you do commit, I'm like, don't go a lot. Cover your tracks. All right. Well, speaking of things that what could possibly go wrong? AI has been in the news a lot because apparently there's like a better than 10% chance in the next 10 years. We're all going to die from AI, which is which is fun. The New York Times had an article that came out a few days ago. Why tech oligarchs are willing to risk apocalypse. And it starts talking about Peter Teal and some of his remarks a few minutes ago. I hope that people who are watching this on the like video. No, the way the brazilis just responded to this is

10:41like the of course the amount the sentence that she thought that I can see are a facial expressions. That was such a New York. I'm sorry. She was like, look at these people. I'm going to ruin everything. Like we said, I'm sorry. For those of you who didn't have the advantage of seeing brazilis response to that, I'm going to say that I can't not be a New Yorker. We told you all that's going to ruin everything. All right. So a few months ago Teal made a bunch of headlines because he called he's talking about the anti-crisis and his definition, the anti-crisis is going to be a luddite who wants to stop all science and progress and technology. And this article talked about how Teal's philosophical assumptions might sound bizarre to outsiders, but they appear to be widely shared among the tech elites. AI and its capabilities represent something analogous to the second coming. This was said by Jeremy Nixon, the founder of an AI hub called AG House. The technology that some tech titans believe will allow humans to escape the bounds of Earth and even perhaps death.

11:42It also represents a liberation from hopelessness and decay. And so that's why they're willing to risk humanity because we'll look at the good that could come out of this. So you could live forever or be completely late or be wiped out. Okay. Essentially, that's what these tech guys and they quoted Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, they all said kind of the same thing. If we are limited to just this Earth and life on this Earth as we know it, that would be really boring and lame. I don't want to spend my money to make this Earth this life better. I want to spend my money trying to get to the next stage in our existence, whether that is surpassing the bounds of this Earth and find life on other planets or to somehow pass death and live for hundreds and hundreds of years. So Priscilla, what do you think of the design? This is the plot of so many movies. Yeah. There's so many questions here. Let me see if I can, if I can, let's look at the

12:46kind of theological issue, this undergirding this and then we can look at some of the practical stuff. One of them is a deep conviction that they would not accept the finitude of human life. And what does it actually mean to rage against like this inevitable reality of death and the kind of chaos and pain they were into inflict upon them? This actually talks about like this is getting at this volley. I guess the second thing that I think that is related to that is and I know some like people think all I talk about everything is about race. But then we, this is what I mean. If you want to understand how structural injustice works, listening to these billionaires are actually the clearest explanation. Because what happens when you have one person with a tremendous amount of power who is psychologically emotionally flawed, then their their maladies no longer is restricted to like their friends and their families and their neighborhoods. The expansion of their power means the expansion their brokenness. And because these people are

13:49broken and they assume that they don't want to accept enemies that got places upon them, they are willing to risk literally all of us. And so obviously I'm not saying they're creating a system. What you're saying is a individual person's sinfulness isn't contained within within them. It bleeds out into the world. And here's where an impact structure they can pay the lobbyists. They can they can have an influence on the government to prevent the government for putting regulations on AI which then puts all of us in danger. So, for sale us, let me ask you this then. Do you believe theologic this might be a good question? Can AI usher in the apocalypse or do we feel like that would mess up Christian eschatology? Do you believe that we might actually all get blown up? I mean, I think people people ultimately do that and people are already doing that. And I think this is one of the ways because it's just a one way that we're like wanting to be like God. But because we are not him, then we're going to create something in a destructive way, right? Like I like that in the article it talked about like the pace that it's going in. Like they're just

14:50they're wanting to move so quickly with this. And I'm just like, well, so much of like the purpose of our life is like to live in the now and move slow. As a New Yorker, that's personally challenging, right? That's not the pace of this war in the city. But like it's just it's it's ironic that it's just that's how people are not kind of like approaching that understanding of like oh like move slower and then you'll actually stop to realize you're not God. And what you're trying to do is God like, but their power clouds that right? That's how they got probably there in the first place moving quickly and not ever ever stopping to consider their neighbor. What if you kind of gain even as a New Yorker who's I have to learn when I first I'm from the south. I mean, we do everything slow. And the first time I went to New York, it's like y'all was sprinting. And so now I've been there enough times to kind of get a bit of a vibe for how the city works. But what spiritual advantages have you found from like slowing down and appreciating things and kind of impression and patience? Have you seen this way at bearing fruit in your life? Because you mentioned

15:50saying that's something that you wanted to do. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've committed to it for the past two years. Just because like when I realized in growing up New York, it made me think fast talk fast, all the things. And so I began to even just engaging like contemplative practices and realizing like, oh, doing everything fast is really not good. Not just for me, but for my neighbor. And that exists in all the ways, right? When we think about fast fashion, anything that really moves quickly for the most part is not good for people. And so once I realized that for myself, I still love New York want to be here. But I realized, oh, I could still exist here and move in the different pace, even if like, you know, people find it weird or it's different. I just make sure I don't stand in the way in middle of the street. And this is this is the funny thing that I've learned because I've been trying to embrace a slower pattern of life. This is a small thing that I've been doing recently. Because my daughter loves for me to walk her to school. She looks close enough for me to walk the school. She was in third grade. She wanted to be big. So she didn't want to be walk the school.

16:51Nice. She's in fifth grade. She likes it. But that also means because her school, when her school starts, I got to get to work by 30 minutes later because I got to wait to walk her to school and they get to work. And I said, you know what? I used to think, you know, what I need to get to work. So like, you can get to school. Mom would take you. But I was like, you know, those two or three emails actually don't matter. And now she will come and find me. She'll make sure that I have everything. Ready. She makes you my book back. She makes she makes sure. And those 30 minutes of walking with my daughter to her school, it's actually been more, has brightened my day than getting one or two things like checked off to do to do this. I think that what you're saying here is that we can either reflect upon the God giving limitations that we have. Maybe embrace our limitations. Reflect upon them. Embrace them as a way of life or destroy the earth. I want to be careful a little bit here. Okay, go ahead. Because on the one hand, I agree with everything you're saying. It's funny. Even like a few months ago, my small group did a study on John Rott Comers series on right now

17:53media, the ruthless elimination of her, which of course is based on Willard. And it was fascinating to me how much pushback our group had to his study because it's like a bunch of busy middle class, middle upper class suburban nights, you're like, how dare you tell me to slow down and be inefficient? What are you talking about? Like it's a good thing to be efficient. And the discussion we had was like, oh, I think it is good to be inefficient sometimes. I think there's value to that. We should build that in. It's not though that inefficiency and slowness is what we should pursue at all times. And so even in this AI conversation, like on the one hand, like the obvious question is like, if there's a better than 10% chance, we're all going to be destroyed by this thing. We should just stop. And I agree with that. And I think as you see the advances AI is making, like it's reasonable that AI could help us cure cancer. The AI could solve some of these major health issues that have plagued humanity for our entire existence. And so like it's kind of like, I've seen a lot of comparisons to nuclear power. And I think it makes a lot of sense that when the bomb was dropped after

18:56we're at the end of World War II, most of the world leaders realized we have the power now to destroy ourselves. We need to put restrictions and regulations on all of this because nuclear power can be a good thing. I mean, it's used to power communities and it's a better type of power than coal power and all of that. And obviously, it also has the means to destroy us. And so I just wonder if there's something similar with the AI that under proper restrictions, under proper oversight, it could be a really, really good thing. Now, do I trust our current leaders to enact that oversight and restrictions? I do not. If you're anything like me, your daily media diet can feel overwhelming between endless headlines, parasocial online spaces, and confusing trends, it's tough to process how any of it actually shapes our faith. But there's plenty of beauty and meaning in our culture worth exploring if you have

19:57the right guides. That's why I love the subtext. A podcast hosted by my friends Lee Camp in Savannah Locke. Their dynamic is fantastic. Lee is a retired theology professor and a host of the popular podcast, No Small and Depper. But he literally doesn't own a smartphone and stays completely out of the loop of pop culture. Savannah, on the other hand, holds a master's in anabaptive studies, but she's deeply into reality TV, books, and whatever is trending. Together, they discuss what everyone is talking about from the Odyssey, both the social media storms that came before it hit theaters, and the lessons from within the film itself, to Nate Bargazese's appearance as a USC fight at the White House, and the selective moral lines we all draw. If you want to move past, noise, look beneath the surface of modern culture through the lens of your faith, check it out. Start for the subtext wherever you get your podcast. Daily devotions are meant to help us slow down and pay attention to God, but too often they feel predictable, shallow, or disconnected from

21:00real life, and quickly become one more item on our spiritual checklist. With God daily is different. It's a daily devotion for people who hate daily devotions. Every weekday, Skygitani shares a short reflection rooted in scripture that helps you become more attentive to God's presence. Drawing from theology, history, art, science, current events, and everyday life, Skygit connects the Christian faith to the where you will actually encounter that day. Each devotional also includes the prayer from the historic church, reminding us that we are not following Jesus alone, but alongside generations of Christians who have prayed, struggled, and remained faithful before us. With God daily is an invitation to slow down, listen, and begin the day with God. Holy post plus the scribes. Receive the devotional in their inbox every weekday, or they can listen to their favorite podcast app. Sign up today at holypost.com slash plus.

22:05You know, I think there's different elements of what you're talking about. You don't want the improvement of life. One of the things that they promise around AI is the ability to take out a lot of the mundane things in life, or the ability to make your life easier. And what I'm trying to at least get across is part of what makes us human is the struggle to accomplish things. And so we tend to think that if we eliminate all of this other stuff, we have ourselves, we're free to do whatever it is that we want to do, but actually that free time ends up being spent back on the electronics. And so it frees us up to be more lonely and the things that actually create community. So for example, if you can automate a bunch of admin jobs, well, then now I have less other human beings to interact with. And part of what makes work work is that when me and you get together, we have a problem, we think it through, and we figure out the solution, and there's a real sense of accomplishment. Now, if we just type in into AI, then me and you haven't had the same conversation community isn't built. And so I do think it promises to ease our lives, to free us up

23:06so that we can live where part of the struggle of human life is living. And that doesn't mean that there are no benefits to AI. It's this idea that, and you mentioned this in the pre-show, they think that it is like too small a thing to actually make marginal improvement in some of our lives. These people are thinking that they can create a utopia. And it's that creation of the utopia that actually think is dangerous because it's the false promise about what human life is. I agree. The only thing I was trying to say is it's not that it's wrong to pursue excellence or growth. Like I think that can be a good thing. We need to account for the expenses at that, and always kind of to weigh the cost of that. I, you know, when I read through this article, I was just struck over and over again at how so many of these tech giants have said, like, oh, it'd be so boring if all I had to do was solve World Hunger on this earth. Putting words in their mouth. But it's just like, and this comparison's been made, but it's like, you look at all the good Dolly Parton did in her life of how many kids she helped to read through

24:07her using her money to fund these programs and send out free books. And it's like, I don't know, I would actually take that over some AI utopia on Mars. So you're correct. And I have, I have, as a pastor, not pursue growth at all cost. But you could, if you wanted to, help grow a kind of congregation, you could come because of like you and you and your wife. And you guys got how many kids you can put my, I mean, like, so I can, I will be more prophetic and move lower. You said, back then just bring you over. You pay me $6,000. Are you paying me $600,000? Are you talking about your church? If I don't double your church, I'll pay you back 300,000. I promise. I need some, I need some of them straight low ties as well. I'm trying to get over here. Okay. What's all right? Our sports though. We had to wait on our sports store because you know, people like sports. And yet this story has made the rounds. So this weekend, a viral photo went around Texas went, I know you all don't care about sports. But this was a big deal. Texas beat Ohio State. Ohio State was ranked the number one in the country. This was a massive

25:09upset. They did it by scoring. They drilled by 20 points in the game at one point came back in one huge deal. Can I say me and my son were watching this game? Oh nice. And we were rooting for Texas because we like the men. Those of you don't know one of the star quarter activists is archmaning. He's related to Eli and Peyton Manning. So this will be like the third manning like family that have been in the bill quarterback, which is kind of crazy. So we're just kind of interested in my son's following it. He went to turn the TV off. I made him keep the TV on. So we watched the entire comeback. And so after the comeback, they came back from Mexico's 21 to three or something or 23 or whatever in the fourth quarter. And then everybody's celebrating. All the Texas is exciting, except for one dude for what he mad about. Bo French, the Republican nominee for a seat on the Texas Railroad Committee or something like that. He was upset. He tweeted out a picture of a bunch of Texan college students celebrating, but pretty much all the students in the picture had brown skin. And he said the caption he included was, I heard UT graduation this year looked

26:11like this. I didn't believe it, but the problem is now obviously far worse than anyone imagined. And then he went on. I weep for the families in Texas who can't get into UT because they prioritize foreigners over Texans. So essentially, he was mad that a bunch of brown skin Texas students were at the game watching football and celebrating their team, making one of the greatest comebacks in Texas history. Yes. Who could have been born in Texas? Who could have been born in Texas? Who could have been Texans? And let me just know because there was one like to kind of to get at some of that those myths. Under the Texas policy is that 90% of the freshman students have to be American citizens. Yes. So it's like they have put in restrictions to make sure that they are prioritizing Americans over foreign students. And the reason they were doing that, sorry, I'm not saying actually agree with that Texas law. So let me put that to the side. I'm not that's actually not to prevent like immigration like from it's for it's that law is designed to prevent

27:14international students who can pay the full price. Yeah. For full price. And some universities are more willing to bring in international students. Now, I'm not saying that that law is at all the law that I think everybody should have. I'm saying that law had nothing to do with he was mad about. He was mad and I'm going to guess from my appearance, I looked at the picture for a second. It looks like there was a mix of ethnicities that he is he assumed that they weren't Texan. And by Texan, he meant white Texan. And so to me, it was an example of how, and this is sound like once again, an overly simple explanation. Racism just ruins everything. Like I'm sitting here, if I'm in Texas and my team has come back, I'm enjoying the game. They're rushing to feel and I just see a picture of brown people. And the first thing I do is stop my celebration, screenshot it and post it on the internet. That shows you how like how much the racial animus that is that is undergirding so much of the current moment ruins everything. It happens when

28:19you have movies, right? First thing people do is like how diverse this movie was going on to hell in Detroit. They my favorite show Green Lantern. They get mad because the black guy in Green Lantern is too socially conscious. It's like they want to create an entertainment zone that is not only free of any racial discussion. It was almost I don't want to see brown people celebrating stuff that I'm also celebrating and to witness that distraction my celebration. And that's one that that's one. It's just like racism is making your life less happy and you don't but you're not a better person because of it. So, Priscilla, tell me what you thought about this though. I bet the best way to ask you. What was your response when you saw that when you saw that clip? Yeah, I mean that was specifically like the weeping like that he weeps that like just was so crazy to me just because all those different elements, right? I'm like they could have been American citizens, this assumption of what it is. Also like hey you don't have to know much history to know that like Texas. Are you kidding me? Like the land of Texas, right? And so

29:25it just it encompasses so many components of like like what people just have joy, right? Like really like it's the idea of like joy is a resistance for so many people because racism is a consistent like a consistent thing. But it just it continues to perpetuate what so many people either agree with or they end up agreeing with because let's say like they like his politics or they like what he has to say. And so it's just perpetuating you know more and more racism and it's creating assumptions where like there's no facts because again we we we cannot know the citizenship or undocumented whatever of all the people in that picture. I mean the craziest thing to me is like these students were doing like exactly what you would expect of any student to do at a football game. They were celebrating like like you would celebrate it. It's just like they were let's say they were immigrant students. Let's say every single student for the the sake of the argument was it was an immigrant. Well they've done what is Republican. What is the dream of

30:28every Republican? They have fully assimilated into the culture that they are in. And so it's like the only thing wrong. And I put Ron in in air quotes was the color of their skin. Yeah. I mean I think it's like I'm assuming like it is I'd say if your country sport is soccer and you've managed this I'm not saying or cricket or wherever. I have no idea what they they could be America citizens. And we're saying for the sake of argument right. Like you said they came in they learned they embraced like they at least began to understand the culture they were entertained by. It's the same thing for me like I will never know soccer as much as like a person who like a soccer country like England. But people have respect for me when I say like I'm a fan of Tottenham because that's a level of like soccer fans. It's so bad. I know because then they're so bad. It's true. There's no bandwagon. There's no bandwagon right. And so people will say oh you're a Tottenham fan. They actually respect the fact that I knew enough about soccer to make an informed decision to choose a bad thing. And I think it's the same thing. I'm not saying these people

31:31the immigrants they probably were born and raised and they know they have something but part of what it means to cross culture is to embrace other cultural experiences. And to police potentially someone's enjoyment of an American experience is to me this this idea that we have become so and this is this may be the running theme. It's easy to say to this guy is he wants to be the mayor the railroad director in Texas or whatever. But the fact that he felt comfortable being that insensitive and he assumed that he and he did he would get the support. Show you the dramatic shift in racial discourse that is happening in this country where just active underlying racial animus it's just existing there. And I do not think you can simply like reduce this to the excessive DEI. I think that with this is is a backlash to the diversification of this country. And this idea to this country belongs to a certain group of

32:33people. And if you're not a part of that group of people or you're not willing to fall in line with that group of people, then we're going to be saying that you get out and we're watching for you everywhere. And I just couldn't imagine somebody he would see that and think that I was the right decision. Yeah. What's so crazy is that this country is like not newly diverse. No. It's like yeah. Yeah. What? Like what? Like, especially Texas. Like what are you talking about? Texas was literally a part of a different country. I don't know. It's like it's another example of a lot of Republicans certainly not all but a lot of Republican leaders. I want to qualify that. Saying the quiet part out loud. Yeah. Of saying things that like they've been accused of in the past but at least and they probably did in the past but at least they were, I don't know. They tried, they realized it was wrong and they were ashamed of it and now we've lost all sense of shame. So Priscilla speaking of like sensitive shame and false piece by simulation. You got a new book. You got a new book. You need a self-promoting for it. Yeah. See, no, this one I'm going to say,

33:38but those of you who watched and she has her book in the background, what you need to do is take out all the other book and put your book everywhere. Instead of that one book, we need to see like everywhere you look, it's got to be a Priscilla's book. So tell us why did you decide to write false piece? Like what was going on in your life to say, you know, I need to talk about what is actually happening in American churches. Yeah. I mean, I love that we ended with that story because it's very, I would say it's connected to what I was seeing within like the church. Like this idea of uniformity, this idea of sameness, right? Not oneness of just like wanting and like secret like seemingly wanting diversity and seemingly including people, but it was a little bit like this, right? Just like, well, I wanted to I want church and people and and and the Christian world community to look and sound and be one way. And that's just not the way of Jesus. That's not what we see in

34:38scripture. And so I got really, yeah, I was really lamenting like the uniformity and and sameness. And I was like, all right, what can I do about this? And I can't reach all people. All right, about. Yeah, I can reach people. I will never meet. So you talk about like this idea that people want diversity, but they want diversity under certain circumstances. What are the kinds of things that the majority culture requires of ethnic minorities in the United States in order to have like a multicultural church or for them to be included? What is the cost of admission that you wanted to address in this book? Yeah, I mean, it's several things I would say is like how we worship. Yeah, right? Like that. Yeah, similarly and like learn the language, right? Like we won't include different languages. Just learn this one language that we all commonly know. And we're actually only going to do one genre and maybe we'll play gospel if we see a black person, right? They had the gospel song in the back in the back pocket. And it's like also like CCM. Yeah, yeah, not too many instruments. So it's

35:45just like it's that's I think that's one way leadership, right? Like a lot of people will say like, oh, it's a diverse church. And I'm like, well, maybe the congregation is diverse, but it's the leadership diverse, which I have found, especially that's a thing in New York that's really big that like the cut because obviously New York City is diverse, but maybe leadership won't be. And so there's different ways of how that functions that is just like, oh, we're making the majority or kind of like whiteness, the norm within our Christian spaces by forgetting and ignoring that like, oh, like God actually made every person on purpose and they made their gender, they made their ethnicity. They made all these things where he made all these things very intentional in each person. You said two things and this could be the entire podcast. And I feel like you just activated something inside of me. Got me excited. You talked about both leadership and music. And one of the things that I think that you're trying to get at and I like to not tell people the entire plot of the book. So people need to read the actual book and say, I heard the summary

36:46on the podcast. There's a couple of things that you brought up here that I think are at least important. Musical diversity is a form of cultural hospitality. And when you force everyone to assimilate to one style of music, you compare it to colonialism, right? That you're saying that the price of the mittens to Christian community is the embrace the musical culture of one particular group of people. The other thing that you were just talking about is this happens in the Bible. People talk about these things that if these are like modern DEI things, but in the book of Acts, when there was an issue around the distribution of food, right? And the question was, hey, some of the Greek speaking people felt like they have been discriminated against by the Hebrew speaking people like, oh, they're getting better stuff than we are. And when they solve the problem, they chose every single Deegan that they chose to deal with the issue of the minority group from the discriminated with someone with a Greek speaking name. So they actually said,

37:51let's put in some leadership from the community that's affected so they can see that they understand if they need to mend. That's something that happens in the Bible. You turn to Acts chapter 13. I know this is something you already know, but when they list the leadership of the church in Antioch from which the kind of Paul's missionary journeys go, the leadership of Antioch was multicultural. And so you do have these ideas that are themselves in the Bible, but they're removed so that we can have something apart approaching a false piece. Is that what some of this? Maybe I'm preaching about your book because you got me all excited about this. As a pastor, that's one of the things I'm always trying to think through. It's like how do we create this sense that everybody's welcome. And how do we create a sense of cultural hospitality that can allow different people to kind of experience our church? Now, but they're in particular, I don't want to, you know, you don't have to say too much of your business. Was there something that happened to you in like your early experiences

38:52and kind of evangelicalism that led you to recognize this or this is just that you heard about in red? Yeah, yeah. So the church I currently work in is the third church I have worked in. I've never I never thought I would be working in a church, but the Lord does things. So the first church I worked in was here in New York. It was in Harlem. And the example I just gave of a diverse congregation, the leadership was not. And I mean, I was part of the staff, but what I mean, like just like pastors, right? Was not diverse. And so there was a lot like, there would be times that we would bring up, we're like, Hey, you know, we're in Harlem. Maybe let's play a gospel song everyone's in a wild. Maybe. Also, the congregation was literally like 70% black. And so and they were just like, yeah, we just don't do that here. And so when you're saying, and when we hear that, like here, well, like you're in Harlem, right? Like what we say here, like on the land that we are in. And so that was just an example of like several things that we would bring up in our time there. And when I

39:55say we was like me and this and the other staff, and often it was like speaking up for the congregation, that would share these things with us. And that's where I was first and like introduced to this, because I grew up in a church that we like, we had goritos, we had gospel, we had CCM, like, it was all included. So when I we came in and done work to this church, it was like shocking to me that like they were so against sick. Cause I'm just like, why are you so like offended by gospel music? And it was just because they didn't know it. Like they didn't connect to it. And I'm like, that's okay. It's okay to not connect to it. But there are people in your community that do, and that has been their whole life and their upbringing. And so really like you're loving your neighbor and being good pastor by including that by considering them and including them and seeing them. So that that was an example of something I reflected on as I was thinking about this book and writing it that like I know that that wasn't a one off experience. What do you think the churches are afraid of the church that refuse to address like multi. I think they were afraid of the unknown for themselves because that was not something that they knew. And so they wanted to be like the

41:01kind of the authority and all the things that happen in the church. But if something's happening that they don't have familiarity with, that made them uncomfortable, I believe. And actually I talk about that in the book too, how we actually have to practice discomfort a lot more as a humanity. And that's one of the ways I think we do it, right? Like a few people shared a few years ago, like my conference I host every year, like we've had Haitian Creole and Korean during worship. And people are like, yeah, I don't know what to do in that moment. I'm like just worship. Like you don't know the words, you don't know the songs, but your neighbor right next to you is singing. And so like, you know, be with them, right? In that moment. But people, but that's a moment of discomfort. And people don't know what to do with discomfort. I'll tell you like a story. I tell this story maybe every now and then on the podcast, but I think we're in a round long enough I may be to repeat it. I remember, I guess whenever the me-to movement like was first happening, or was first being going viral back when Twitter was a totally different place. And I had this moment where I was like reading some of these stories. And I thought, and

42:08this makes this will sound both bad and hopefully better. I said, man, I'm not actively, I remember thinking like I'm not actively sexist or something like that. And then I said, oh, no, I sound just like the person who says, I'm not personally racist. I said, oh, no. And I realized that I had done no reading, no thinking, no real engaging on the topic of like how women experience life in the church. Because it was church too. It's the one that I was reading. You start seeing the story through what happened to these women in the church. And I said, oh, I haven't actually what it was like, I didn't do that. And then like the whole experience convicted me. Well, like what have you done? And that has actually led me to these times where I realized there are things that I buy a season things and I, there are places where I'm challenged. And I'm always trying to like work really, really hard. It sounds like way too congratulatory. What I was trying to articulate is part of what it meant to actually be in ministry and community with my female clergy, sisters, and brother, sisters. And my female colleagues in the academy is to actually understand in the way that made me feel uncomfortable some of the places where I have previously that I didn't even know about.

43:11And it was not easy because you want to think of yourself as the good guy. And it's not that you're even intentionally doing something bad. The process of learning is painful. One example of this. And I don't want to belabor it. Is that a lot of conversations that people have, it's released the book projects and those things happen informally. So you kind of at like a like a dinner or your place. And you have a conversation with your friends. You end up this is how books are born. And I had a, I had a female colleague come with to me and say, well, because a lot of these guys believe in like the Billy Graham rule, they want to talk to me at all on a one-on-one conversation, which means I don't make the connections that I need to be involved in these projects. And so I'm excluded. And so you just like literally sit here with me and talk for a little bit. And when she first said that I was shocked, I was like, what do you mean nobody talks to you? But I'm not a, I'm not a, a, a, a, a female who walk around in a woman's body, who's having navigate the space where a lot of men see them as danger. And so that's just one of those, that's like a small example of the ways

44:11in which part of what it means to be a Christian and community is actually here and learn from the stories to people who will change the way that you perceive not just yourself, but what does actually means to be in ministry. And that doesn't mean to say that I got everything correctly or that I understand that the plight of women, I'm not making that kind of statement. I was trying to be more vulnerable than to say, it is easier to ignore the problem and to have a false piece than to embrace it. Now, could I ask you a question? Do you, wait, I've got a question. Is there like a favorite chapter that you wrote in the book where you were like really in your bag? Did you just deal my, what, what, oh, were you gonna ask that? That was my, oh, I, what is in your bag even mean? It means like, yeah, I absolutely love that. No, he heard me say this and like he's still it's a question culturally appropriated my in your bag. I don't know what you're talking about. You can tell he realized he reached a black park because he paused before in your bag. It didn't just flow the way that it should. You know what, I'm trying to

45:12assimilate to being sure. I was gonna say it every, every book authors like to be humble, right? They don't, they don't, they like to say, oh, I just did it to glorify God. I know you did. But there's also a, a, a joy that comes from writing. When when you're writing a section of the book, you say, I'm in my bag right here. I'm cooking and I can't wait until somebody, somebody does it. Exactly what I sounded like. You even said you, you would say, I'm in my bag like the prize at the bottom. Yeah, I was just gonna say that. So where's, where's a place where you write it in false piece? You said, you know, I think this chapter is really gonna be necessarily people. Um, yeah, I think I would say I'm looking at my chapters now. You got to pick one of your kids like picking which one. That's crazy. Um, I would say that difference is not a threat. That's chapter three. Um, I, it was very personal to me. Um, because I just, I exist in so many, like differences, right? As a, as a person, I'm black. I'm Latina. I'm a daughter immigrants.

46:16I grew up poor. I live my, the majority of my neighbors are poor immigrants. Like, this is like my life is, you know, where the difference, where the other. Um, and, uh, and, where I'm from in Dominican Republic, um, to us, there is another other, our Haitian brothers and sisters that unfortunately a lot, a lot of not all, but many Dominican's see as the difference as the threat. And so I exist in all these kinds of weird interesting spaces. Um, and, and so I wanted to say, you know, share it from like my perspective. And I really, what I invite people in that chapter to, um, is to, to also like enter into spaces where they are the different one. Yeah. Uh, because often we are in spaces that, you know, there's comfort levels of similarities. And so it's the invitation to, um, not see the difference as a threat, but also to teach other people that by going into spaces that you are the different one, um, even if it's hard. Yeah. I think you and I model that so well. No, that's what we, first of all, I'm going to, let me put up, let me finish this part and then we can talk about you in a second.

47:20We want you to go and support, um, false piece. This is like your second book, third book. Yeah, second book. Yeah. So please support this and buy all the books that she, that she ever writes. And if you're ever in New York, go to renovation church and maybe she'll be preaching that Sunday and you can be best by our ministry. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We want to have you on again. It's always a pleasure to hear from you. And, you know, yeah, maybe we'll do it. Like I said, we'll do the Spanish edition next time. Thank you. Thank you for calling in. Don't let style. Uh, be a little tech. I'm not really waiting for someone to say that. Don't let style like building a tech. Uh, you know, I mean, like, I got it. I mean, like, basically, I got it. I'm, so let's need to hear more of that. I'm so excited about my Spanish, but I need to lead that along. Thank you all for listening to so much of the podcast. We catch you all next week. Please, please like and subscribe to this video. If you want to see me, Mike, and the rest of the team continue to think through Christianity and popular culture.