Why Diners Are Tired Of The "Restaurant Monologue"

We're going to talk about spiel's table side as well as trust in Michelin and 11 Madison

Park after changing back to including meat protein on the menu, just got their first

review from infatuation and I got a 6.2 out of 10.

We're going to dive into that and so much more.

This is the repertoire report on the repertoire podcast.

My name is Justin Kana.

I'm here with Ray DeLucci.

How are you, man?

Good man, are you?

Doing good.

It's a, we've been getting a lot of like, both comments and support.

We actually ended up on Jason's Instagram on, there was a clip that got chaired of us

kind of giving Jason's history.

If those who haven't been following along with that situation, we did a whole kind of like

breakdown of what I call the Noma abuse iceberg a couple of weeks back.

And we've been getting comments around basically, are you guys going to cover the protest

that's going to be happening?

It's I think seven days out.

As of now, Jason has been sharing that he's gotten like 13 million views.

So that's like 10 million, almost 9 million more impressions on the content that he's

been making.

And he's basically been non-stop on that.

There's a website.

There's graphics that he's sharing.

And there have been a lot of other folks who have kind of chimed in with, you know, adding

other restaurants to the mix.

I don't know if you've been seeing some of this stuff on social media, Ray.

Jordan Air is now in the conversation, a bunch of other Copenhagen places.

And, you know, similar to other comments that I've made, I think we're seeing this almost

bifurcate.

There's talk of abuse stuff.

There's talk of like unpaid labor being the smoking gun that everybody's going after.

And so as with all of the stories that we cover, we cover such a wide range of topics

here on the show for you folks, because I know that there's so many different elements

of the industry that you folks are a part of.

I just wanted to kind of like at the top of the show say, we are going to continue to

cover this.

I don't think it's going to be something where we are probably going to dedicate an entire

show to this unless there's something that comes out that is, you know, as industry moving.

I mean, for going to say, Ray, this ended up on the like rate my chives page when he

was basically like, please catch me up on the controversy that's happening here is quite

comical to kind of see some of that happen.

So I don't know anything else to add.

We're going to cover it once we kind of get more information or as other parties share

more.

I don't think that we are interested in necessarily like feeding the drama, so to speak.

I think what we want to do is like keep your folks informed, use this as a case study,

and then ultimately use this as a asset that you can use to increase your performance

at whatever it is that you're doing because that's kind of trying to bring it back to

the mission here.

So to speak, you have any thoughts on just updating on the noma thing because we got a

lot of views.

I know there's a lot of new people here just to let people know that we are not a salacious

food news drama channel.

Yeah, I do think it is something that is going to be, we might look back, I kind of see

this as a big turning point in the industry.

It's funny.

Justin and I off record taught about how like we were discussing like the idea of COVID

and how we thought some Westerns might have carried through and they didn't in terms

of like employee welfare for kitchens.

And so you see this and you see like I just see Jason's post of people from all over

the world talking about it.

I personally have people in my life and included Jason jobs, interact with people that were

directly in that situation had no, and then just like the network of noma somehow led

this person into a friend like that I have.

And like they met that person just out of talking about our podcast and they're like,

oh, I actually worked there and I was actually one of these people.

So all that to say is I think it's a very big story.

I also think that we just started the first part of it.

I think what's the process happen?

However, no response what comes after how they do with L.A.

I think there's a long story here, but I think overall like what is interesting for

me is the story is getting bigger.

There are a lot of people eyes on it.

And I think this is going to be a test and a testament to the idea of, you know, what

is the future going to be like for restaurants and is this a turning point?

Totally.

The second little housekeeping thing, if you listen to this on like a podcast platform,

whether that's Apple podcasts or Spotify, they're giving a like in a rating.

Obviously I normally give that pitch, but I more or less wanted to remind you that we

have a YouTube channel that we post these videos to and we are doing a lot more YouTube

content basically going forward.

And so I did a test live stream yesterday and what that is trying to lead to what we're

attempting to do basically is interact with you folks a little bit more in a live capacity

on YouTube.

As well as on Instagram.

And so those links are going to be in the description to follow us on whichever platform

you tend to spend the most time on or prefer.

And basically what is going to happen on Monday is I'm going to do a deep dive on job

searching.

And so I have had the privilege of getting to work with a lot of you folks in getting

job placements across typically fine dining places because of those are the ones that

either require you to do an international move or you're, you know, having a little bit

more of a high competition in getting a role at one of those places.

I'm noticing that I have put out a bunch of free content and it is still like people

are feeling like they, you know, like need a little bit more support there.

And so my call to action for you folks is we're going to put a YouTube community post

up on YouTube on the repertoire channel.

And if you have thoughts or questions or places you're wanting to apply to, you can either

send me a DM hello at join repertoire.com or send us a DM on Instagram and we can keep

it anonymous if you're interested in doing that or like I would really like to go work

at xyz play someday.

How would you just an approach going to work at a place like this crafting a resume.

How do I find the person to contact all of this stuff that is like really nitty gritty

and can feel really intimidating and overwhelming.

I kind of want to just go through it live because I think it's an interesting way to kind

of like over my shoulder view how I approach some of this stuff.

It's obviously no guarantees.

I cannot, you know, like fully endorse you as a candidate for the job.

But as far as like from the process that I would approach some of this stuff with and even

some of the like non technical specifics, this is like going into the restaurant and asking

to do an observational stag stuff that I've talked about before that you can use tactically.

I kind of want to dive into some of that stuff.

And we're going to be exploring a bunch of other topics on live streams going forward

whether that's sharpening knives together or breaking down, you know, a piece of advice.

We've even discussed kind of like deep diving subreddits and stuff like that.

That's you kind of expect going forward on live streams.

And so if you want access to that, it's going to be free.

And so YouTube and Instagram is the place to go.

Right.

We've got some stories we're going to kick back and forth.

Do you have a preference on where we start?

Yeah.

No, you go for it.

Okay.

So I found a piece that was from Elazar Sauntag.

And so he is the new critic for the Washington Post.

And if you remember, we covered that piece from the previous critic from the Washington Post,

Tom Sietzema, both revealing his face and then announcing that he was leaving the publication.

And so I was kind of saying I was going to keep an eye on the Washington Post.

Obviously, it's, you know, not quite the giving stars and, you know, level of Michelin

guide, world's 50 best.

But at the same time, it's not, you know, like an Instagram influencer, so to speak,

who's kind of sharing their thoughts here.

And also with the rise of DC becoming a Michelin recognized city, it is kind of like the

role has kind of changed, I can imagine, over time there.

And what I've noticed with this happened with Tejel Rao when she took over, I'm almost

positive at the San Francisco Chronicle, when the critic ends up shuffling at the publication,

that critic usually has this like set the tone piece.

This is my expectation.

This is what I'm looking for in a restaurant.

These are the little details that I notice when I'm going out to eat.

And this piece was like absolutely no different.

And it's titled, it's time to retire the restaurant monologue.

And so there's a couple of quotes that I wanted to read for you here, Ray.

And we can basically kind of lay, I want to get your reaction to, to some of these.

So quote, lately though, I have been sitting through fewer stories and more what he calls

spills.

Have you dined with us before?

The question has practically become a meme.

And I'm often tempted to say yes, to bypass the pain we must both feel as server as a server

dutifully runs through rehearsed anecdotes for every dish.

Robotic explanations as why this restaurant differs from all the others, a breakdown of

even the simplest menu.

At a relatively casual new DC restaurant recently, the server pointed out the lime garnish on

a plate of chicken wings and told me, quote, the chef recommends squeezing the lime over

the chicken wings.

End quote, which is like such an eye roll, you know, like, what do you think that lime

is for?

And I was kind of like struck by this because I am such an operations nerd.

And I want consistency and I want to kind of like bring people along for the ride, even

if it's their first service job and you never worked front of house before.

And you're going to go to a table and that's a frustrating moment as a chef.

I can imagine you felt this way sometimes Ray, like you prefer you prepare something and

it just kind of gets dropped at a table.

No explanation.

I've certainly been to tasting menus where that's the case and I feel so bad because

it's like, you're doing the chef a dish just just here where they basically have no context

to what it is that's on the plate.

But then I can also understand the other side of this.

I think I've gone on a rant before with, um, you don't want to overwhelm the guest

with opportunities to f the dish up, so to speak.

And so if you're going to, you know, like give a bowl and there's going to be tuna and

crispy shallots and nori and spicy mayo, you want it to be such that every single thing

that you have put in front of that person to mix themselves at the table can be combined

in the bowl.

And there's no risk for that person adding a little bit too much sesame seeds or whatever

it happens to be because that, you know, basically puts the onus on the person.

I have a friend who does a lot of food critiquies stuff here in Seattle and he's like, the reason

I go to restaurants is so that I don't have to prepare my own food.

You know what I mean?

And he thinks it's, he views it as a cop out when restaurants put the onus on him to kind

of like prepare the dish for, for him.

But that was just an interesting thing of like trying to thread this needle between over

explaining how he calls it a spiel and basically like, there's not a story here.

There's, this is not giving me context.

This is like, almost treating me like I'm naive or that I don't know what I'm doing,

which can apparently is frustrating for, for L.S.R.

I'll read another quote here.

Yeah.

Can I just go ahead?

Yeah, go ahead.

Go ahead.

Um, I think the, the two things, it's, it's weird that you brought this up because I

didn't, I haven't said so.

I was a little bit beforehand.

But I didn't really know.

No, you're reading this up.

The two quick experiences.

One is, then in the position where I've taken people out to eat where I've been to

the restaurant and the person has it for like three times in the last like week and

each time the server is gone, have you died here before?

And I go, I have, they have it.

And by the third time, I remember this mentally thing, I was so tired of answering

this question.

Doesn't matter.

I died here or not for a simple restaurant.

The second thing is like you said, the menu explanation, I recently got engaged in

my fiance.

And that's what tap is restaurant after.

They were very clear that you need to order for your party size.

We have like 14 people.

You need to order like 12 to 14 dishes in order to, you know, be full.

I thought that was valuable information to have.

When I went to this restaurant the other day, which I love, and they're explaining their

appetizers and the main course and the desserts, it's like, you really know that I can read

the menu.

And so there is this idea of, there is a lot of this.

Have you been here before?

And also if you actually listened to me after, partly after that, there's like two things.

It's like they either explain the restaurant, which I know that's why I'm here or two.

They don't really give you, they just go, oh, great.

And it's like, why did you ask that question?

Again, I don't think it's like a bad hospitality thing if you actually have valuable story to

tell or directive on portion sizes or whatnot, but there's just asked if someone's been there

before or not and then not have a backup.

To me, it's really, really like, it's not like annoying, but it's just like not needed.

It's not efficient.

It keeps things falling smoothly.

The night I served for restaurant group and they would have a very direct way of, you

know, wage staff and even shops approaching tables on what to, how did you write people

the guests?

And I just think that maybe that needs to be a little bit more streamlined sometimes.

I do think that the conversations with server are really awesome.

And that's what I like.

I just hate the, however, restaurant now is like, have you been here or not?

And it's like, I don't think, is that necessary information for most restaurants even need?

I can imagine that most of the reason that these spills get implemented as a process,

meaning it is like a mandatory thing that it is.

It's expected as what's called a step of service in the restaurant.

So it's the same way as, you know, once they enter, you're kind of checking the table

to see, do people have menus?

Have you gotten their water preference?

Has their drink order been submitted?

All of these things that I think operators and especially front of house people like,

you train this so that in an effort to make sure that every single person in every single

table has a consistent quote unquote experience.

And more importantly, the things don't get missed.

But then it's almost like these things get layered on when somebody does have a bad experience,

i.e. they order two or three dishes, they get upset and leave a bad review or have

a conversation with management, call a manager over and say, I didn't know that this was

going to be XYZ price.

And we were only going to get this amount of food.

And then that sweeping policy kind of like affects the entire organization.

And now every single person, it gets like almost like bolted on as this like appendage

to the step of service.

And so I'm bringing this piece up specifically for people who kind of like, you're the person

who is going to set that tone and tell people what they're going to be having to spiel

quote unquote, have a conversation verbally do behaviorally at the table.

It's kind of like the trend is showing us that some of these processes as well intentioned

as they might be, maybe having a undesired effect on the guests that are coming and

sitting in your restaurants.

So as with all of these things, it's not like I'm necessarily giving a prescription.

I think there is a prescription later on in this piece that I'm going to touch on.

It's more, take a step back and ask yourself the question, are there some quote unquote

like legacy conversations we're having at the table that maybe we don't need or maybe

that we like we try to swing the pendulum too far the other way to prevent this bad thing

from happening that happened one time.

And now all of a sudden it's a process that like is actually impeding our hospitality.

Quickly another quote quote, a sentiment seems to have calcified among chefs that have

anything left unexplained will fly right over our heads.

Maybe they're right, but I wish diners were given the chance to make small mistakes,

to explore, to come to our own conclusions in a culture of so little friction between

us and everything around us.

Restaurants remain a vital way to experience the confusion sensory overload and date

meaning of a complicated imperfect world.

The urge to direct diners through every bite of a meal runs counter to what I love about

dining out one of just a few cornerstones of American life that have not yet been optimized

into oblivion isn't this the wonder, the mystery, the chance to discover the whole point

of leaving your own kitchen and quote.

And so that I think is like for the control freak for the person who is a heavy optimizer

for the person who wants every single person's experience to be XYZ thing, whether you label

it perfect or up to par or you know insert insert your your language here.

I think that this is hard to hear because it's risk you're adding risk like there is

a non zero probability that this person is going to have an experience that is not what

you desire it to be.

And that open that's vulnerable right like that opens you up to potentially like disappointing

people.

And so I think it's an interesting piece coming from a critic where you know Ray I'd be

curious to hear your thoughts here like this person goes out to eat for a living.

This is somebody who is like so experienced and kind of like rolls their eyes at these

spills.

But to the person who you know I don't know the couple who's been saving up to go out

to a nice meal, it's like they appreciate some of that context.

I just want to share a very quick anecdote before I go to my next quote.

I went to a conference I go to this conference in Boise, Idaho every year.

And I'm typically like the only food chef person at this thing because it's for the email

marketing platform we use at repertoire.

And so I'm amongst a bunch of other like educators and business owners and entrepreneurs

and people who kind of like run marketing for a company.

And they basically like it invariably comes up that I do food stuff and worked in kitchens

for a long time.

And everybody wants to tell me their story of a quote unquote disappointing fine dining

experience that they've had.

And sometimes it's the opposite I hear like you know gushing stories of oh my god I

had this experience and it was amazing.

I was just so taken aback by this person this woman who I was sitting across from at dinner

and she was to talk to me about a meal that she had had I won't name the restaurant

because I don't want it to skew any sort of you know do any bad you know things for

them because I don't think this is the restaurant's fault.

She was basically like I had no idea what the experience was going to be like I've never

done a tasting menu before we love wine but like I totally was overwhelmed when the

psalm came over and was trying to like guide us through do we do pairings do we do bottles

these bottles are really expensive and it was almost like had that person been primed

a little bit better going into this experience on what to expect at a tasting menu especially

at a three Michelin star restaurant which this was it was like oh my goodness that person

would have that they left saying I will never go back to this restaurant and lo and behold

she now talks about that restaurant poorly in context that are like years later.

And so all of it like that's the tension that I'm driving here where it's like if you

set this as a policy these people have to do this every day day in and day out and then

also at the same time some guests need that and I think that that's kind of like how

the critic here wraps things up saying this will maybe do I want to get to the prescription

part but there was one more interesting quote that I wanted to dive into in case you don't

end up reading the full article quote in a world of Yelp elites and tick tockers and belly

trackers ray that was that app that I kind of shared with you belly and yes restaurant

critics like myself it makes sense to leave nothing open to interpretation only interpretation

is half the fun and quote that was an interesting way to frame it and then lastly he does kind

of like give a little bit of a prescription here quote you can have downright a you can

have a downright chill night at Kebawa watching undisturbed as Carmichael's team turns out

a dizzying array of dishes but express even an Iota of interest in how the sausage gets

made and the nearest chef or server will click into gear explaining the history of an ingredient

if the chef has a down moment he might even demonstrate how your favorite bite or the

of the night was cooked his approach is deeply human not a set of anecdotes and instructions

to be memorized and regurgitated but a shifting push and pull between those cooking and

those eating and quote and I really think that's what this piece is trying to hammer on

to really like sound like a broken record and really bring it back to the the basics here

or what we're all about but it's like skill issue bro you know like this is a ability to kind of

like read the table you know like interpersonal skills the desire to kind of like make somebody's

night better and actually having the knowledge of how that dish was prepared or the ability to kind

of like have that bedside manner unreasonable hospitality that I know some people are going to roll

their eyes out and say that's not going to fly here but I think that's kind of what you were talking

about Ray where it's like it's almost less interesting to have the rehearsed feeling the

the reason we call it a spiel is because it feels like something that is not a genuine conversation

the push and pull isn't there the human connection is not there and as we talk about these like

people head of in real life things it's like that's what we're almost trying to get away from when

we go to restaurants because all day all of us are getting responses from large language models

and it feels like I'm just saying this rehearsed thing that I have predictively laid out in order

to make you quote unquote happy it's like we don't want that when we go to a restaurant and so all

of that I think is just a very interesting way for you to take a step back especially if you run

service operationally and maybe have this conversation with your team and say like hey I think

we're a little bit too robotic I think we're a little bit too rehearsed let's do a role play

exercise and then you as yourself if you're the person who is kind of sitting here and saying man

I do that you know like really take a step back and say is there a skill that I can develop here

and you know to really bring it back to the work that we're trying to do like maybe there's a world

where we can do that as a topic of a live stream and I know that talking about food is something

I'm really passionate about because I think it matters in this context but I think it's something

that's difficult to cultivate unless you get practice and so if that would be interesting for

you folks to like do a little bit of like a role play thing live for everybody to watch I can

imagine that would be an interesting live stream I would have liked to have had that when I first

started having to bring food out to tables any of any closing thoughts on that

I am all brought in on especially like you said with AI and all that to each server is your

unique approach like I don't think I think when you over-script the opening of a restaurant you

lose a key part and this is maybe something when customers are even realized of what the restaurant

experience is and it's going out to eat I remember when I was you know living alone it would be

cool to walk to restaurants because I get to get to top of the server and I'd ask questions and

you know I'm going to a restaurant pulling all Indian grill and the server he was fra- you know

the food he was serving us from his country we had a huge wide ranging discussion of

what the food was about and like because I was open to that and I think we would have gotten there

if he was just forced to be a very scripted experience on his part and so it's like the best

experiences I've had when servers are given a little bit of guidance but they're actually able to

have their own flair and their own ability to talk to customers.

Two things came up to really wrap this up in the interview that I did with

chef Christian Puglisi I kind of asked him this question around you know at relay they were kind

of one of the first restaurants in you know like the finer dining side of things to have the chefs

run the food obviously it had happened to other places but I kind of asked him around his

process on that or it just kind of came up as a topic of conversation I can't remember exactly

how he landed on talking about it but he basically gave this insight on when you drop the food say

as little as you need to to get the dish across because he viewed it almost as that leaves

that open interpretation element still intact where that person can have that surprise and delight

thing I think you and I have also talked about this idea of like you over explain on menus you

almost add expectation to that dish and now it turns into this problem of like I have this

state that I'm going into on having this dish and you can almost you know decrease you know where

my expectations are or like land short of where my expectations are and then he basically said

if the person asks questions you should be not an encyclopedia of knowledge but you should have

the ability to kind of like add more context add a story about the purveyor really nerd out with

this person and to your point connect with them on this thing that they're interested in but it

does not have to be a six minute explainer when every single dish hits the table and I think

that that is similar to other points that the person brings up in this piece of like don't treat

the audience like they're stupid that's like a common thing that comes up in like movie making

it's like between one scene and another scene you don't always have to add all of the little details

the audience is sometimes smart enough to make that transition themselves and then the other point

that I that I have brought up in other pieces of content that's worth echoing here is I sometimes

get frustrated at I almost look at it like a like two people that are dating and like they're fighting

all the time but like I just want them to talk to each other and that's how sometimes how I feel

about like the restaurant person and the guest and it's kind of like the guest kind of has these

desires or expectations that XYZ thing will happen but they won't voice them and then the restaurant

has the same thing they wish that the person would just kind of like interpret the stuff and just

have surprise into light moments but they won't talk to them and see kind of like what kind of

night are you trying to have how interested in food are you have you ever you know and I mean like

come to an experience like this before can I you know give you some insights into how we do things

in not a scripted way it's just an interesting thing for you to ponder and there's no sort of like

it is a skill it is not a prescription that I can give you from a script perspective and

that's just like reemboldens my idea and how we approach all this stuff what do you got

all right so I actually have a advice piece that I want to cover this is for you kitchen

confidential read it it's not your post the matter I read all of it but I just wanted maybe not

to answer their question but I thought I had so I'll just read you the part I want and then we'll

go from there so chefs and owners do you know who among your crew is going to make it as a

lifer and I think there's a little bit of a different question being asked here but if there's

quote if so do you do anything to nudge out the ones you know won't make it I ask because I

take you for granted to this industry tends to require sacrifices of time and opportunity now

everyone enters the industry with the desire of becoming a chef or owner of course having said

that there's sure easier ways to make money if all you needed to job I presume most employees

who stay for any length of time are trying to work their way up to chef or owner if you knew

that was a person's goal and you knew that for that person the goal was unrealistic what would

you do for those of you on the other side of this equation have you ever made some sort of

extraordinary sacrifice for your job that didn't yield dividends in the end personally I worked

through jobs for a salary that amounted just a half of minimum wage because I was promised a

lary act they say becoming an entry level baker I figured that even the city wages and long hours

worth it considering the alternative was paid culinary school but in the end it turned out to

the head baker didn't want to teach me how to bake for fear of becoming replaceable and so instead

of learning the skills I'd be promised I would end up doing mostly private and janitorial work

from filling in on the line positions which I was well qualified for and should have been paid

a competitive wage for so from your side have you ever made an extreme sacrifice in order to

advance your career and they go on and you know there's some conversation but I think there's two

things here that when I was reading this Justin I had these two questions and it's one I think the

assumption it was a little bit wrong here I actually don't think most I don't think you can always

say most people in kitchens want to be head chef I especially I mean we covered months ago

the AI how AI is reading people to kitchens just because they need a job so I actually would

dispute that and I wonder your thought a in b do you ever think that do you think this is a

leadership issue when someone is at the point where they're not willing to train the next person

in fear of being replaced because to me that screams poor leadership

craving the pot like environment and so just maybe your thoughts on the a everyone wanted to

be a chef or needing to be a chef and be that that training piece of being replaced will not

training people to get there I would be curious right like what is the proportion of like head

chefs who are in positions that they're at now who started at that restaurant and worked their

way all the way up like is it 10% of head chefs is it 30% is it 50% plus is it 80% like I don't

know those statistics but my gut tells me that that's not typically how somebody's career tends to

pan out think you and I are examples of this I know that you and I have talked to probably hundreds

of other listeners at this point where those early days of your kitchen career involve a lot of

bouncing around because it is like you both need to get a wide range of skills so that you don't

just become you know one trick pony only knowing xyz cuisine or xyz chefs set of skills but then

I also think that there is to this person's post there is like a limited number of opportunities

available in any one kitchen there's like there's three sous chef spots I've certainly experienced

that where I wanted to be a sous chef at a place but it would basically like it's not a situation

where if the restaurant continues to do better or you continue to be a high performer you will be

able to launch a supplementary dining room at the restaurant and you can manage it because you

are skilled enough to be able to take on that workload that's not how it works at a restaurant and

so it doesn't you know mirror other companies career trajectory wise in the way that your tenure

or your skill development or your you know relationships you have with the ownership give you

more opportunities kind of going forward or in a company you might get promoted to a title like as

an individual contributor but yet again like you can't really do that restaurant I had that same

thing when I worked in restaurants and we talked about this when we first met and I was like yeah

you kind of had a hard ceiling at a certain point restaurants and so you get to that place where

you're you're looking at the next whatever three months six months a year of what it's going to be

like for you at this restaurant and you start looking at other places I don't think that's

necessarily bad because from a making more money getting more experience getting the title that

you want getting to work at a certain either caliber or different style of cuisine or insert the

reason that people change jobs I don't think any of this is bad I do disagree with the assumption

that every single person who joins an organization has this like I'm gunning for the top you know what

I mean I'm going to be the head honcho here someday type of mentality because I think that there's

so many people who work in kitchens who have roles where it's like I'm just here to do my job

and I think that's totally admirable I think there's you know obviously admirable quality you know

an element to like if you want more if you are a little bit ambitious if you want to kind of like

get more out of that place there's a place in space for that too but I'm more saying that like

it's almost like a scarcity mindset you know what I mean like that this person's approaching some

of the it's almost like a fear mindset and that's what I think leads to a lot of this like

backstabbing behavior I'm going to you know like turn off the timer on your oven so your

stuff burns so that the sous chef you know sees you as less than so that I get the promotion instead of

you because it is this like when the title or the the role is a scarce resource that is to be

competed for that turns into a real detrimental thing and so I think more people especially

as we're seeing Gen Z and you know get into the workforce younger millennials too it's almost like

I'm here to do this role right now and if and when I want a sous chef opportunity I'm gonna you

know maybe bring that up to my manager here but if it's not available like I will go somewhere else

there's other opportunities that are available and I think that's okay um I guess I'm more confused

uh on the like the sacrifice and not having it pan out thing it's like that's why I think the the

cook to chef to entrepreneur mental model is so has been so useful for me because it's almost like

when you when you lock yourself into like I need to be the chef at XYZ thing

it's like almost broaden that a little bit and say like okay well I can be the chef I can be a

chef to cuisine at a place and it doesn't necessarily have to be this one or to the entrepreneurship

thing it's like it's almost like you get to a place where you cannot continue to grow at that

organization that happened at the last restaurant that I was working at right where it was like

there was no role for me to get promoted higher than right like I was a sous chef leading the

past doing all the expediting helping to you know recurate the tasting menu every three months

and the person above me was the chef owner it was like there was no you know like we had we had

talks of like opening another restaurant and I could be the head chef of that concept but it was not

necessarily like I wanted to be at that restaurant and so all of that was something where I was like

okay the entrepreneurship thing is the next step for me and so that was something that I had

to kind of like grapple with it was a painful transition I realized I had skills that were lacking

all of this stuff kind of had to come to pass for me I don't know did you have thoughts that like

on the on the sacrifice thing and it's like a there's almost like a pay your dues thing

angled to this that I can imagine this person subscribes to I don't know what were what were your

thoughts as you read through this yeah I think the one thing I thought of is this the idea of

everyone's aiming I hate I think that gets you into a lot of trouble and you assume everyone

else's goals I've worked in restaurants where the lead grill cook had been there 17 years and that

raises appropriately and was killer and he was happy to be the lead grill cook and didn't want

much more and he was so extent because that money paid for his bills paid for his family and he

loved what he did and I just think that we get into a weird space where we're just assuming

everyone wants the same goals we want everyone's gone in for the same thing and then there's also

and this is a youth thing I think I remember being you know there's this idea of oh you get frustrated

because you expect perfection in everyone else doesn't or they you want it more than everyone

else and I think that's like a really really egotistical way of viewing your job it's like no

everyone's at their own spot like you can experience it and go about it however you want

but I don't think you should project on to others that want and you shouldn't expect that

on anyone because then that's just projecting your own wants and desires onto them and they might

have a holy happy life and that really have those needs so I just think there's a little bit of

ego there as well maybe unintentional ego and again not a negative thing I think it's great to

be ambitious I do think though that also the last thing I'll say is because someone might now

want to be a chef doesn't mean you nudge them out I think if someone's talented at what they do

with they're not looking for more don't think it means they're useless or meaningless in a kitchen

I think the actual actually or anywhere I think that's actually the opposite thing so just a little

bit of a like you said a little bit maybe a scarcity of mindset from this person commenting I just

don't view the downside to like being the replacement angle I I mean I guess I can empathize with

like I'm sure there's gonna be somebody in the comments who has a story of like this happens to

me it was totally devastating I trained somebody up they were willing to work for less than me because

I had been getting those raises over the years and the owner operator was a total dickhead and was

basically like I'm gonna you know undercut you and say you have to go for this you know what I mean

like I can hypotheticalize how this might play out and actually harm somebody but at the same time

I think that there's like you can ask those questions and what I would more see happening is like

oh my goodness as an operator now I have two really talented bakers you know what am I gonna do

here from a sense of like now if I want to negotiate a four day work week if we have if we're if

the business is growing and doing well and we're gonna open another location or do a commissary

kitchen model or something like that I think that there's so much more opportunity if you have other

people who have your skill set because what happens if you don't do something like that then

all the chips fall in your shoulders you're the only one who knows how to quote unquote make the

brioche and now all of a sudden you're feeling bad because when you get sick you're feeling all this

guilt because nobody else can quote unquote do it as well as you can I just think from a mindset

perspective I've had too much like indoctrination from like reading the email three visited you know

like going through all of these delegation frameworks that I've had to teach myself in business

to kind of like not make myself the single point of failure that I just don't approach work in this

way and I am just so pro teaching stuff and making you know rising tide lifts all boats obviously

skill development is something I'm super super crazy passionate about to the point of like it's

becoming a meme on the show but I think that's like that's why I preach this stuff because I think

it's important to do and if you're gonna say this stuff and then also complain that when you have

a day off the bread isn't as good it's that's kind of on you dude. I have a piece from a publication

I hadn't you know stumbled upon yet it's called vitals it's called vitals magazine I think it's

a publication out of the UK they interviewed a gentleman named Andy Hayler those that have been in

the like fine-nighting in Michelin world that name probably rings a bell he is the person who I'm

almost positive became the first person to have eaten at every three Michelin star restaurant in

the world I you'll have to correct me from wrong here Ray or somebody in the comments like I'm

almost positive he also had some like controversy lately in both his writing and his approach

to criticism that again we can hash it out in the comments but vitals interviewed him because

Michelin was kind of gonna repost and reevaluate stars for great Britain Ireland and Dublin

specifically no in Ireland in Dublin on Monday and so they basically interviewed him and were kind

of like talking about Michelin can you trust Michelin it is a paid post on their sub stack I'm almost

positive but I did just kind of want to go through some points that they did share is kind of like

a preview to the article and if there's any talking points that we can go over I wanted to jam on

those so the question that was posed to Andy was quote I want to start by asking how can a Michelin

star restaurant be bad I'm not going to read his whole response here but just some quotes that

sit out here quote unfortunately that's a very common issue in shuffling these days because

everyone's frantically trying to be innovative but most of the really good combinations were discovered

a hundred or five hundred years ago I can actually remember a three star dish at a place in

Marseille a dessert involving blueberries and coriander or something it was absolutely disgusting

in Edible the third issue is execution can they actually cook the things you would hope in a Michelin

star restaurant you'd be looking at capable chefs but a good example of that not being the case

was at a two star place in Schlossberg in the black forest very near to a place of three star

restaurants which are both excellent there was a whole massive issues with bad ingredients

technical and design issues and things were wildly over salted one dish of trout spetzel and

an undefined sauce was so grotesquely salty that neither of us could eat it and quote and that

really stood out to me as like these are still people run prone to mistakes environments that we

see is you know sometimes they're super intimidating oh my goodness the standards are so high at

these places but at the same time Andy somebody who has like a this wide robust list of experiences

that some of these restaurants says it sometimes misses the mark and so that's something where

I think when you and I Ray have comments that come through when somebody just had a bad experience

out of Michelin kitchen it almost like they discount the whole kitten caboodle they throw the baby

out with the bath water so to speak and they say Michelin cannot be trusted anymore I can't believe

this is a two Michelin star restaurant because can you believe that this they they had this award in

this accolade and I just had this experience I'm not saying and I think I've made this clear in other

pieces of content before that mistakes don't happen in these environments I think you kind of have

to look at it probabilistically and say like what can we do I have a whole problem solving module

of total station domination where I talk about this to like decrease the chances that something like

this is going to happen in our kitchen in the dining room to a guest and that's kind of the

game because aside from you know you making two of everything and having a sous chefs sit there and

like individually taste every single thing that goes across the past every night it turns into

something where we just talked about examples of service maybe not going so well this is an example

of food being over salted in an in an instance I think this is something that a lot of people can

maybe empathize with I've certainly had experiences and I share these in the going out to eat videos

that I post where a dish just lands flat and it's maybe not a developmental problem from the

sense of like the dish was bad it's like an execution problem on that pickup the dish was maybe

not prepared so well and so I just thought it was an interesting point that this was getting called

out so explicitly I don't know share share a point in that yeah I am I don't know if I'm finished

saying in the podcast but I'm famous for saying that Boca in Chicago is one of my favorite restaurants

because I feel that there's nothing that really blows your mind but they cook at such a high level

and that every time I've done there their meal which is I think fairly priced in the

Michelin standards is cooked at just an extremely technical level what's funny is I was

chatting with someone who had been at Boca and I want to start by saying I don't think

this opinion is wrong but this is someone that isn't really like in the chef space they said

you know it was good but it didn't blow me away I was expecting a little bit more out of a Michelin

star restaurant and I think Michelin culture in the United States for the last few years has been

dominated by the Illinias and the EMPs and all that and it was just funny because knowing

a deeper level of cooking I felt like for the first time and the sons protected

saying this but maybe I appreciated the technique on display because actually new technique

where as this person was expecting something totally different like a mind blowing experience

in terms of experience and menu cross over and whatnot and while they have beautifully crafted

dishes it's not like blowing your mind like I ate it in Nigbo in Spain and that blew my mind because

of the different ways they did stuff and so it was just funny to me that I could appreciate them

on a level of technicality but that was also due to my experience as a chef and as a cook in the

food industry and that maybe that's lost that many people because while you might go oh this

dish tastes really good you also go but like I wanted to be I wanted it to blow me away and so

I just it's just interesting and again it wasn't a wrong opinion it was just wow and so I look at

the Michelin guide and that maybe it's a part of that in words that taking it to the next level

lately for me the technicality that they show is it's masterful and so I kind of understand

this in a sense where maybe if you put forward blowing people's mind or trying a bunch of crazy

things over just really technical food you might get rewarded on a Michelin level and at an

everyday person level but if someone really knows food and they kind of doesn't work you might get

scolded in the backhand I don't know if that makes sense it does I in line with this I know that

I've been like teasing that I'm making a Michelin deep dive episode and part of the reason why

it's like both been stalled is because we've been making other content but then also I'm like I'm

grappling with this exact idea this like Michelin is this arbiter of quality they tell people

what's good and what's not but then at the same time because these restaurants are have all of

these variables at play it doesn't mean just because a three Michelin star restaurant is able to

deliver xyz experience for that inspector that qualifies them for achieving this award in this accolade

does that mean that the guest on table 34 is going to have a quote unquote three Michelin star

experience that is like they are intentionally like ambiguous with how they talk about their qualities

and then what if the menu is different and then also what is the state of that person going into

the experience all very very interesting questions I don't necessarily have a clear answer there's

another question that kind of touches on this in the piece where the interviewer asks what about

Michelin's own principles and methodologies do you think that within Michelin's own award awarding

criteria that there are things that are too bad that are bad or too prescriptive and what is the

effect on restaurants attempting to subscribe to those criteria and Andy says quote the criteria

are not unreasonable ingredient quality the technical skill of the chef and consistency another

consideration is the personality of the chef in the food which I've never fully understood

but I presume is to do with the originality or inventiveness of something you can't really

argue with ingredient quality or technical skill consistency is interesting because there have been

quite a few exposés to show that Michelin very rarely in reinspects the same restaurant in the same

year and then he says in Pascal Remy's book where he talks about beat the life of a Michelin

inspector he reveals that they were only at that time in 2004 about five inspectors for the whole

country of France and quote and that I think is counter to what we're seeing with Michelin having

this big reinvestment play and they're charging so much for these you know metropolitan areas or

the whole state or this whole region to kind of pay for these guides to come to the city I can

imagine it's still like counteract some of this stuff it's like so that we can pay for more

inspectors so that we can go to visit places more frequently and have you ever read this book

rate the zen and art of motorcycle maintenance it's a very interesting book it's kind of like

weird and quirky and it's written in this very you know like non stereotypical way but that book

basically explores this idea of quality it does a bunch of other rants and it explores it through

this idea of going out a road trip and fixing your motorcycle on the way but the author frequently

comes back to this idea of like quality and craft and workmanship and he's basically grappling

with the idea of how to define quality throughout the entire book and those who have read it kind of

understand what I'm talking about those who maybe haven't will link it in the description if

it would be interesting for you to read and basically it's like an unsatisfying conclusion

that they land on of like how do you define quality in something and it's worth kind of like

pondering that for yourself as you're met with some of these quality you know quality criteria maybe

that's a better word to use here when it's like we're using things like ingredient quality we're

using things like technical skill we're using things like consistency and it's like what would

that actually look like I love the question of how do you operationalize this in other words how do

you basically guarantee behaviors to happen in any of these environments and after you sit and ask

to yourself this question and again just pondered as an exercise you realize it's really hard

and so it almost kind of like puts you on a better footing to almost put Michelin in this like

you're not necessarily making them these total arbiters of truth everything that they say is

like gospel and we need to like worship at their feet here but then at the same time you also

grapple with like Ray and Ray you and I think I've talked about like other people trying to

launch alternatives to the Michelin guide and it's really freaking hard and so this is one of the

reasons why that's the case we're gonna link the full piece in the show notes but it was just

something that in this train of thought that I've been on I thought it was an interesting thing

that I just wanted to kind of bring up if that sparks anything for you as a listener what else we

think we should do the fine dining click hits and end on the video reaction we got 17 minutes

okay cool so the first one is two openings that I think we've either been touching on

or that we brought up it or came across the radar from the sense of it's a fine dining place

it's a tasting menu spot and there's just interesting things operationally that they're doing that

I wanted to call out so the first one is a restaurant called vicinity in Loscados which is famously

the place where man racer David Kinches went on to earn three Michelin star restaurant that is now

closed is and so that from a like Bay area you don't I mean I know it's not quite in San Francisco or

Oakland or you know even going north to like Napa that is just a new place and the chef is Julian

Silvera and he has experienced some almost positive in Florida where he got a restaurant in Michelin

star and now he's in California kind of like doing foraging stuff it's 13 course 13 courses on

the tasting menu one hundred and ninety five dollars per person and they have supplemental courses

so it's not you know like crazy exorbitant on the level of like a enclosed which we've kind of

covered on the show but I just kind of wanted to bring it up as a as a place that again have not

been have not really seen the food but it was something that kind of came up in my research as I

was looking through new places I do like the uh yeah I do want to just say the details page

also 13 courses one hundred ninety five dollars is pretty uh pretty uh you know pretty fair I

would say yep uh it says every course deflects a moment of point in time from Silvera's own life

a hike a fishing trip a day spent touring a foreign city each dish a memory translated to the plate

through flavor and form I definitely am interested in seeing that menu so that'd be interesting

and the next one is liel in la we covered that as markis germark famously chef de cuisine of

froncin in stock home he came to la was doing this project called habitue which was basically like a

pop-up private table you could book for like a it was over ten thousand dollars i'm almost positive

not per person but like he would basically sell it as a table of ten or something like that

and it was like they were aging their own caviar curing and aging their own caviar they were

dry aging fish and meat he partnered with uh Robert Sandberg i'm almost positive who's also a sous chef

at froncin and they basically collaborated to do this in la as this kind of like roving pop-up concept

thing and then it was announced that he was not only gonna open liel but he was also gonna open

another restaurant that i'm almost positive is a little more casual the thing that i wanted to touch

with liel specifically is on the menu page ray if you look at the menu which is a hundred and

fifty dollars they only have four examples i don't know if that's like the exact example but they're

they're toggles and you can toggle them open which almost to the point on the spiel thing

almost gives and it's like a two paragraphs long on each of the dishes yeah and so as an

example abalone barbecue seaweed rice brussel sprouts fermented head of the wood sauce and when you

toggle that open it's almost like what ideally i can imagine chef marcus talked would talk about

if he were table side spilling this to you as an exercise and this is incredibly valuable for chefs

to do if you're sitting here and you're saying i want to get better at talking about food

look at this as an example and then say can i do this with the food that i'm serving

and if not like that's an interesting place to sit with and like grapple with that and say because

i think he really beautifully weaves like this uh there's a storytelling aspect here there's a

beverage pairing thing here that i can imagine is really good at like upselling people to wine

there's like a real intentionality behind why each ingredient was chosen here i'll just read really

quickly the abalone first person narrative too as well yeah yes it says quote the abalone is

gently pounded and then grilled over white oak charcoal while the liver is simmered in a seabed

broth and blended into a paste made with the remaining kelp from the toasted nori and dashi sauce

seasoning the grilled abalone perfectly while the rice is steamed and seasoned with a sweet

vinegar infused with three types of local seaweed to bring out the clean flavors the brussel sprouts

are fried to get that deep earthiness the kohji and mushroom fermentation are enriched with butter

and generously drizzled around the plate did i hear butter yes chef while the psalms may dip

defaults to white burgundy consider some alternative routes rejot par's incredible shardonnay seven

young blend from phillon farm hits all the right notes with a rich buttery texture and refreshing

acidity complemented by savory flavors that pair beautifully with a fermented mushroom sauce

for an old roll option consider a classic classic white reo ha to compliment this umami packed dish

like in and of itself that almost primes you to kind of like open yourself up to having that type

of experience at the restaurant if i'm not mistaken i don't know like if if this is something

where you're just like totally nervous to sit here or you're kind of like am i going to get you

know do these people know their stuff there's an incredible amount of like being able to

walk the walk and talk the talk so to speak we care about our purveyors we care about our suppliers

like there's intentionality behind our food put that on your website like include that in your

marketing like tell try to tell that story before the guests sits at the table or the counter i

can imagine that would go a long way i've had friends eat here and say it's an incredible experience

and it's a very high quality execution of what they're trying to do and so on my next trip to LA

this is absolutely going to be on the list and i just wanted to cover it as both an opening if it's

an opportunity for you career wise but then also conceptually how they're marketing the thing and

listing their menu i think i just think it's cool uh lastly uh two quick hits as promised uh before

we get into the 11 Madison Park piece New Orleans is going to be where the world's 50 best North

America awards happen that's going to be on May 28th and so we have yet to hear kind of like

through the grapevine any sort of like movers or shakers that are going to be honest yeah emeralds for

sure i think he's been getting eJ has been getting a ton of love on various publications and you know

media opportunities i think it's awesome that both two Michelin stars has been awarded but then

there's also like they're leveraging it you know what i mean like they're leading in and they're

trying to i can imagine that it's been a boom for business for them i'll clip it i want to

that emeralds makes world's 50 best list we can clip this and say it right later tech yeah let's do

it okay last we're gonna show a video here really quick on the infatuation uh they a critic from

New York went to eat at 11 Madison Park obviously Ray and i have not made it there yet and a rating

of 6.2 out of 10 was given and so let's play that video really quick for you folks and as you

pull that out i'll just say we both have our opinions we haven't discussed them so we may agree

you may disagree so we'll see okay can you plant this side quest 11 Madison Park is serving

meat again i recently returned and respectfully i'm not sure they're trying anymore when the

finding restaurant ditched meat in 2021 i wasn't in love with the food but i appreciated what

they were trying to do it was an experiment they were making a statement last year when i heard

they were bringing meat back i was confused it seemed like a surrender but at the same time the

critic in me thought the meal will probably be a lot better the critic in me was wrong first off

the current menu still 365 dollars feels substantially similar to the plant based version it offers

different riffs on radish and pondberry seeds but it's roughly the same quality which is to say

interesting and boundary pushing but ultimately skimpy and kind of a drag if you aren't all in

on vegetables the only real difference is that now if you choose you can swap three of your plant

base courses for ones involving meat or fish instead of silk and tofu with curry oil for example

you can get poached lobster or instead of a tardivo salad which is good but questionable in the

fine dining context you can get some scallops fold in into pockets of crisp radish i will say the

meat dishes are more effortlessly compelling than their vegetarian counterparts most of which

seem like they are suffering from an inferiority complex that results in an overcompensating

but what's the point needing meat here it's not like those dishes like the signature honey lavender

duck are all that interesting or even purely delicious the meat feels like a band-aid a quick fix

at least the plant-based menu had a point of view isn't that what you want from vine dining now

as incredibly thoughtful as the service is the experience feels generic when an al dente potato

is presented in a custom ceramic steamer it feels goofy in a way that becomes less endearing when

the next table over is eating duck when in terms of restaurant presses you reach the 99.9

percentile the stakes are huge and this place still doesn't cut it even less so now i don't know

what the solution is for leaven Madison Park but i don't think this was it hit the link in bio to

read our full review after okay let's talk about this review i have a couple thoughts as well

so for first thing that came up for me was how new york looked and still probably i can imagine

operates under this like eleven Madison Park john george daniel per se type of you know what i mean

those are that those are the heavy at the top the burn it down the places we'll burn it in great

great call out that it's almost like lobster prepared in that way if you're we're watching the

video in the in context is literally just like the tail brushed with like butter or i can imagine

there was other things that were maybe infused with that and then it's like the small vegetable garnish

and then the sauce poured table side or the duck as an example like crusted duck has kind of like

swept through both new york and la like they're in in a world where daniel whom is the not the only

person he didn't like pioneer this but like from a consistently getting really high quality

Hudson Valley you know like duck i can imagine is what they're serving it is like that was almost

like an exclusive opportunity to enjoy this and when everybody and their brother now is serving

butter poached lobster and duck in that way you were going to go to have that experience and you're

going to say well why am i paying three hundred sixty five dollars for this thing and i can go down

the street and get for a hundred and seventy five at a one Michelin star two Michelin star place

and that that gap is typically made up by the level of service that you're going to experience

and i without having been to eleven medicine park since we'll get our left i don't know what the

service quality is get eleven medicine park and so that is something that i certainly like in

friends who have sent me this review and just kind of like you folks have you know dm didn't said

hey please you know respond or react to this on the podcast it is something that like i kind of

mentioned this is what they do best so to speak i think the problem is that was what they did best

in you know i mean twenty eighteen so to speak when they were quote unquote the only place in town

they hadn't had a gajillion people come through the kitchen learn how to do that technique and then

they go be a sous chef at another place and they say hey do you want the recipe from duck from a

eleven medicine park like we can do that and then it turns into something where it's almost water

down it's saturated to flip the other you know the analogy the other way and it's like now you're

in a market where everybody kind of like expects some of this stuff and it doesn't hold as much

value anymore and then the other one was like i'm surprised to hear the pushback on like didn't

we want a lot of the plant-based stuff to stay like i was just so you know taking a back to hear

that like it's bad that some of the plant-based stuff is still in the menu and maybe that's

the place where it breaks is that when you put it in contrast with meat and seafood it doesn't hold

as much weight and it needed it in order for this to function in the way that it needs to in land

with guests it needs to just be the only option i don't know what are your thoughts i think i

predict it and have them are wrong you can let me know in the comments that this would be a very

poor brand decision for eleven medicine park the whole reason why they were law did going plant

bases because it was something that was like he said a courageous act of fine dining act

for a couple of points first of all i've ordered plant-based menus at restaurants before because

i believe that you see more creativity i'll be also more risk when a chef goes totally plant-based

because you don't have protein to rely on and so i think that's a very like that i think that's

what the testament to a chef can be to the idea that again this is it was just such a weird

framework for me because in my mind just putting the lobster tail its basic or the duck that's

just the slice of it is more boring and less value in my opinion than the beautifully

crafted plant-based dishes because i didn't go get that anywhere but i can't go get

emp's interpretation of a radish or a type of salad somewhere because that's the creativity part

of it so it just does feel like a reliance back on meat or trying to put meat back on the

menu to appease people so i think what emp has done is they've confused the brand they kind of

taken away because you have the people that wanted to go there for a great experience

and then you would have to believe it the people that wanted meat but then you get this idea of

where they're maybe not doing both is good anymore because they've become conflicted and other

brands are confused and i don't know you i don't know that it's weird to elevate a potato to that

level if it tastes delicious we are all be going to have the naysayers and say that and i'm not

saying that they shouldn't be that they should be defended for these issues i'm just simply saying

i think what they were doing was great i think they took the brand in a different in a new direction

and i think that they've kind of torn that down and now they just live in this weird zone of

you're appeasing business people in new york city and you're really inspiring much else

and it's hard to say without eating there but that's the tone that i've picked up but i did think

they were going to suffer from image in brand perspective because they've totally didn't want

done a 180 and then they fully i didn't realize that the plant-based menu was mostly there still

i thought they were going fully back to embrace meat it just is very odd so i think that a

it was a little bit i didn't really agree with that point of like oh this the like i would rather

try the vegetables and again you're paying that money for the art of it all at the end of the day

if you're going there and this is the last thing i'll say this is such a societal piece as more and

more people look at value fine dining is an art it's a expensive concert it's a going to a life

sports event i don't know how much value you can glean from a place at emp you're not going

there to get a value of like a ton of food you're going there for the expression of food as art

you should leave full obviously but again that value piece contradicts the entire

philosophy of what a restaurant emp is for better or worse so those are my feedback points

my hope is that they can take this and obviously appease quote-unquote the people who are like

i just want the lobster and the duck back in the menu and then they can basically take some

sort of insight or innovation push i know that we had also covered one of the people who was on

like the culinary development i don't i can't remember exactly what his role was but like

right before this announcement happened he left the restaurant and so it's kind of like

if you don't have anybody who's experienced to doing r and d it's like how do you quote-unquote

innovate if that's not something that's being prioritized in the organization i can imagine with

some of this feedback coming out and you know invatuation is just one publication or media outlet

we're not necessarily saying this is a definitive like 11 Madison Park is going down the tubes

i think there's also potentially an opportunity here for i mean like i can't believe i didn't

bring this up in the episode ray but like that's what we did at the french laundry there was

there was the chef's tasting menu and a tasting of vegetables on purpose because it was like

if you're a vegetarian or vegan one operationally and it was incredibly easy for us to basically

like accommodate the dietary restriction but then it was also like from a values and concept

perspective it really just put into example like what what we were capable of living right across

the street from the garden you know what i mean and then it was like if you want the the parmesan

cheese and the the wagyu and the oysters and the caviar it's like that's on the chef's tasting

menu and so all of that stuff just put into and you know like they were the same price

someone was positive and so all of that put into context it's like there's a way to do this well

i just think that and that they could have done this but i think that that would have put them

you know maybe too much in competition with per se i don't know it's just very very interesting

that's where we're gonna wrap today i hope that this has been a you know like we covered a

lot of stuff today if there's events that you folks have or comments please please let us know in

the comments like and subscribe and we will see you folks next week thanks for listening