Why is Drumcree back in the headlines, and what happens next?

0:00Welcome to the journal that I ease the explainer where every week we take a deep dive into a different news story. I'm Laura Bern and on this episode, why has the drum creed dispute returned to the streets after almost 30 years? Well in the 1990s drum creed became one of the most contentious and violent marching disputes in Northern Ireland. At its centre was an orange order parade through the mainly nationalist car Vahirode in Porta Down. The roads to stop or re-root that march led to years of protests, major security operations and serious disorder. Since 1998 the orange order has been prevented from completing the route, but this year a procedural error by the Parade Commission set off a chain of legal challenges which ultimately led to a heavily restricted parade being permitted to go down the Gavrahe road. Now on Sunday, residents and supporters gathered to block the route, the parade did not proceed and days later the standoff remains unresolved, despite talks aimed at finding a way through. So how did a dispute that had largely disappeared from the headlines returned so suddenly what

1:04actually happened on the ground in Porta Down over the past week and with both sides still holding their positions, how does this end? While we're recording this on the morning of Wednesday, 30th of September and we're joined by the journal reporter, Jermith Pepper, who has spent the last few days for us reporting from both Gavrahe Road and Drum Cree Church. Hi Jermith, thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. And just a reminder to our listeners that you can visit the journal.ie-forward-slash-contribute if you value the work that we do here and would like to support us doing it. Jermith, can we start first with the history here for anyone who doesn't remember Drum Cree in the 1990s? What was the dispute actually about? Yes, some listeners myself included and were dull enough to remember this and for people who are a little enough to remember it, they might think that I'm missing out a few things here, but just a very brief rundown, I suppose it started in 1995. We had the Gavrahe Road residents coalition formed and they stayed to sit down protest to stop the march. And or you see, it did indeed stop the parade from going down the Gavrahe Road in 1995,

2:07but the orange order refused to be it I birded, which resulted in riots. A compromise was reached somewhat like the parade that, say, permission last week in the courts to proceed. A compromise was reached with mediators in 1995 for the orange order to proceed without bands and nationalists moved away and allowed this march to proceed. However, it was later revealed that mediators were told by the RUC that this would be a one and only situation after 1995, that would be it. There would be no more marches and obviously that didn't come to pass. We move on to 1996, the RUC that pleased him for the time and said there would be no parade down the Gavrahe Road and the orange order. Nevertheless, attempted to march and said, we make no compromise. And this resulted in riot and right across the North in the midst of all this violence, Michael McGoldrick, a 31 year old taxi driver. He was actually lurched his death by Laudus paramilitaries. The RUC then reversed his decision, allowed the march to proceed.

3:07Now, I'm moving to 1997 and this is the last time the parade marched down the Gavrahe Road in the weeks leading up to this. There was a lot of violence, Robert Hamill, a 25 year old Catholic was killed and ported down. The decision on whether the parade was made at the very, very last minute. But in the early hours of the morning, around 1500 soldiers and police moved into the Gavrahe Road. Residents broke through the barriers. They had to sit down protest, where it seems of RUC forcibly moving residents from the road. And nevertheless, the parade did happen in 97. And then we come to 98th, which is what a lot of people will remember. It was a major flashpoint. The parade didn't happen this year. It had newly formed the Parade's Commission. It said it couldn't happen because of the previous violence. This sparked riot in the Noilis areas right across the North. And there are so many stark figures I could go into. Probably the most stark figures that 630 petrol bombs were thrown across the Noilis areas

4:08in 10 days following this decision. One of these petrol bombs shown into the home of the Quinn family in Bali, Monty, that's in Cantiantrum about 100 kilometers away. Three boys died in that. We had just in the year 7, Mark Eibes 9 and Richard Eibes 11. They were asleep in their beds when the petrol bomb was thrown through the house. And the Quinn's were a Catholic family living in an predominantly Protestant area in this just part. Inger right across the world, even US President Bill Clinton expressed his revulsion. Nevertheless, your hands order did say, there are going to march. But it never happened. And from then on, the protests dwindled. And then most people forget about it. And then we come the last week. And it's re-ignitant. What you described there is, and as you say, anyone who remembers the late, mid to late 90s will know that that was one of the last and darkest moments of the troubles, really. And so Garvahi Road really wanted to raise your flashpoints here. And a community still traumatized by what happened there.

5:09Yeah, indeed, still traumatized. And that's what a lot of nationalists will say. That there's people on the Garvahi Road who lived through this, experienced violence, didn't want to go back there. And then John Fnuken, for example, who's the skinned finn, not from the area. But he said to me that he remembers this vividly. He remembers the fear that there was ready-prost in the work from this. And he made the point that some people have lived through it. They don't want to reopen that wound. And other people didn't live through it. And he doesn't want to create new bad memories for them. So for almost 28 years, we haven't seen this kind of confrontation on the road. So what changed this year? What exactly happened at the Parade's commission? So for most people, they probably haven't thought about Garvahi Road from Greece since about 2000s, since about the turn of the millennium. They poured it down orange, or they've never forgotten about this. And I wasn't wary of this. But every week, basically, since 1998, they've been applying to March's standard of Vahi Road over 1,300 applications, every single week to the Parade's commission.

6:10But during the summer, it sought to just review of one of these failed applications and the Belfast High Court found that there's six commissioners who are meant to approve of a March. And all six didn't do this. And there are procedural issues. The High Court said that no hesitation in quashing the decision of the Parade's commission because of these errors. It did note that this wasn't a stance on whether or not the parade should happen. It was just saying there was a procedural error. So then the orange order go back with a new application. This time, it's much changed. There's no bounds, no music. 60 people and the commission seeks advice on the PSNI. You could see as we can go ahead with slightly different numbers of 35 instead of 60. And then that's where we're at now in the present day. So it went from Parade's commission, judicial review, and then the courts kind of waited in, probably unexpectedly. This is where it ended up. Yeah. And then some people might remember it fast as Saturday. I think where we had the kind of mammoth day in the courts where the Parade's commission

7:12on the parade is just can go ahead with 35 people. And then Bertie Herndt, for example, was criticized in the time frame. It didn't seem very tight on Friday. You say, can go ahead in Sunday. And then I said the same for a mammoth day in the courts and Saturday, two in the throwin'. I think the court saw it about three times in the early hours of Sunday morning said, yes, can go ahead at 8 a.m. And obviously that hasn't come to pass yet. I suppose some people might wonder, okay, if it's only 35 people and it's a restricted number of marchers, then why does the local community in the Garvahierri have such an issue with this? I suppose it goes back, obviously, to the violence in the late 90s. But I think more so it goes back to that 1995 parade because you might remember that the mediators come out for the steppin' off to the 95 parade. They say that they have several witnesses who attest to the head of the REC at the time said, this is basically what I'm done. And the head of the REC at the time he said that this parade will never happen again after 1995 without the consent of the residents and Brandon McKinnon, who was the head of the

8:17Garvahierri old residence coalition still is in this day. He went to the protestors, your state's in sit down protest, they didn't want to move, but he basically got them to let the march pass under the condition of this is one and done, it's happening, and it'll never happen again. And that didn't come to pass. And I think the residents felt blindsided by that. They're still feeling like the world was kind of pulled over their eyes on that. So that's a reason why we've this residence to it. Some people are saying, why won't the allow one and done last Sunday, I suppose they'll say, we already did that, 95, and that wasn't adhered to. And obviously just all the deaths, all the violence for me and I took it in the late 90s and Brandon McKinnon now of the opinion that for the residents, it's no parade, and that's just it. And do you have been there with the residents and with the members of the orange order all week, you've been talking to them. So can you take us to the Gavahee Road first? What did you see there with people gathering to stop this parade? They're very much mobilized, aren't they? So yeah, very much mobilized.

9:18And to be honest, I heard people saying that they're having good crack. I know it's a very serious issue, but there was same sounds, there's transessions, there's the Christian war of indifference, people comparing it to a many fly, there was, you know, tea and sandwiches and coffee being taken in almost by the hour. And so real, that's a community, I suppose. And then to be honest, I saw the complete opposite, a drum creed church and anything but a, so essentially at the top of the drum creed road, so where the parades, if it were the pass would turn off for the drum creed road up to the drum creed church, that's where nationalists are gathering on the footpaths, on the grass ferds. Then about a ten minute walk away, you've the drum creed church where the orange order are. So at its height, you could have hundreds, maybe even a thousand people at the Gavahee Road numbers far, far fewer over drum creed church.

10:20I only saw 20 marks at the height and basically every, it seemed hour or so, about a dozen people were more than to a smattering of police, asking we pass and then we'll be told no and then just turn and go back up the hill. And several people over drum creed church were asking the police to intervene about people who are looking on from afar, several feels over and seemed a little bit, and there I said, patty to me, the PS and I said, well, what's what's the issue, what do you want us to do? And someone said, oh, well, they're lightren. And so atmosphere and I'm very good and drum creed church. So even though as you say, not as money and the orange order side, what are they saying to you? Are they pretty determined? They're not leaving the scene. So there are legal advisor and who I spoke to at the scene, Jimmy Bryson. He was kind of at pains to say to me that I want to be described as a legal advisor to the port of the orange lodge because other people are describing as a loyalist activist.

11:21And most people probably know him for his online presence and he came to the forge during the whole IRC border Brexit issue for years back. He basically put it to me that there's no resolution needed here. The courts resolved the issue last week. They said to parade good past. That's his kind of thing. He's the line that he's taken and the DEP is taken as you know, you've the real of law on one hand and the rule of the mob on the other hand. And his opinion is that we don't need to resolve this issue. It's been resolved in the courts and let the parade pass. And they seem pretty determined that they're going to stick it out, come up me until the parade proceeds. There's a lot going on here, isn't there? Because as you say, the courts have ruled, let's say, in favor of the orange parade. And they're saying, you know, we really need to stick to the rule of law. There are other considerations for the local community. And they're saying absolutely not. We're still living with the trauma of what happened in the 90s. So in practical terms, what is stopping this from proceeding? Is it now procedural? Is it a legal issue?

12:21Political issue. And so as far as the state, the Guvahi rule residents have come out and mobilized and where it starts happens, I can't see the parade happening. And the PS and I say that they're trying to balance the rights of everyone and they have a range of options that they're considering to bring this to a conclusion. It seems that people are pretty much in the round happy with the police in the ground. They're just doing their job. The issue seems to be with the higher up police who told the parades commission that they have felt confident that they had good police diss, that there'd be no disorder. The PS and I also, they have said that what the Guvahi rule residents are doing is unlawful. However, they're not willing to use force to move people from the road to say that people will get seriously hurt here. And just to give an idea of the people there, there's some disabled people, you know, in

13:22the fat path, there's some elderly people, the PS and I have noted this, the set of just not willing to use force to move people from this scene. And also to probably not keen to revisit the optics of the 90s and people forcibly, you know, removing people from the roads or an orange order can understand this nationalist road. We're nearly a weekend to this and it's an unspilled into storm and politics as well. Michelle O'Neill joined the protest at the weekend. I know unionist politicians have strongly criticized her for that. There've been warnings about the executive. How serious has the political fallout become here? Yeah, I certainly think that has the potential to become serious, and perhaps even up to the collapse of storm and there were not quite that press of this yet. And the TV wanted to be at that level. They have called on Emma Little Pangelli. She said, do you pay deputy first minister to resign from stormant, which would trigger the collapse of the executive. Jimmy Bryson, the legal adviser to the port of dawn, orange order, he said for that for two options. I heard the orange order mortis down the Gavahi road or the stormant executive should be

14:23collapsed. And Michelle O'Neill, as you say, coming in for criticism too, she's wanted an instrument to answer questions about this. She was meant to be there yesterday. She wasn't, she was in Dublin with Mary Lou McDonald, making with T-Shok, me all Martin, she says she will be there in stormant among the dawns or any questions. But her and the wider Shinfee and party are pretty serene about it. They have said that Michelle O'Neill, for example, said she doesn't expect the police to contact her or what is to have them does yet. It is a relatively minor offense to be in a part of an unnotified period. Shinfee and Shia, they expected her to be at the Gavahi road. That's exactly where she should have been standing with the residents. And then the background, stormant basically comes to her standstill amid this dispute. Do you pay later, Gavin Robinson was meant to be at a committee yesterday, ironically, around bettering the stormant institutions. He didn't go to that. Other committees are kind of coming to her standstill in the background. Stormant was meant to agree about it by tomorrow.

15:26It just simply won't happen. They're meant to come to Northern Ireland's secretary Chris Bryant with a resolution. But he's now in Hillsborough with much bigger fish to fry. As with all things Northern Ireland, the answer has to be talks, doesn't it? And there's a lot of talk of mediation and some talk I think this morning too, but potentially involving someone from outside of Northern Ireland. That's what a lot of people are calling for. So what exactly is being proposed and what would any agreement actually look like here? It's somewhat difficult to know what's being proposed because the orange order and a Brendan McKinna of the Gervahi Rhodes Resonance Coalition, they're both having separate meetings with Northern Ireland's secretary Chris Bryant, after this. And when they emerge from the meetings, they don't really give away anything to the media. Brendan McKinna, for example, his kind of routine thing is to go home and go back to the community center at the top of the Gervahi Road and brief resonance about it. Apparently he told residents last night that Mediason is dead in the water.

16:29He had been called for an international mediator. He said we couldn't have anyone connected with the British or Irish governments. But apparently he says that those mediation efforts are dead in the water. Despite this, he's at Hillsborough right now meeting with Chris Bryant. And as regards what a resolution might look like, I don't know, Alliance leader Naomi Campbell and Northern Ireland's minister for justice, she said the same. She said she can't say for sure if there is a resolution to this. Chris Bryant earlier in the week said he's not quite sure what a resolution will look like at this slightly odd line. But if he looks through the mess, he can maybe see the outline of something that might persuade people. But Brendan McKinneff, for example, said the residents are clear. They simply cannot be any parade. So essentially you have the Gervahi Road Residency and there will be no march, Jarns order saying there will be a march. So it seems difficult to see where a breakthrough comes in between those two stances.

17:31And finally, if there isn't an agreement, what happens next? I know the courts will be sitting again on Friday. Maybe if the courts got them into this, maybe the courts can get them out. But does this simply continue as a standoff by the looks of it? I suppose yeah, in the immediate interim until Friday until the court of appeals, we'll have both sides taken in. We'll see people in the Gervahi Road and Jarns order intermittently trying to remart that they in their heart of hearts knows isn't going for at least in the short term. And yeah, as you say in Friday, it's going to be before the courts at the court of appeals. Again, we'll hopefully know more on Friday, what's going to happen then. And just that court of appeal decision, that's basically based around the Parade's commissions reading of what the PSNI said and being interested to see what comes from that because a lot of people criticize in that PSNI decision to say that this could go ahead without any disorder and violence.

18:32And indeed, there has been no violence yet, but depending on your reading of this order, perhaps there has been disorder with people taking the streets and Sunday night and very lords and immersion block in the Gervahi Road. And just some brief more context, it had been thought in Sunday night that basically once the clock struck midnight, it had been thought that this would all be put to bed and the orange order had to submit a new application to the Parade's commission and light of all the protests that wouldn't go ahead. And the shadow of the thing to think that too, she was saying the Gervahi Road residents and Sunday night, you know, just sticking out the midnight and then that's it. It's over. And but it turns out that, yes, the parade was meant to start at 8 a.m. on Sunday morning in the year for the name 30 p.m. But the PSNI have said that in the interim, that the term in the Eastern remains live and that decision to allow them to more extend the Gervahi Road and reduce numbers and

19:33stand until any other higher power sees other ways. Well, I think if anyone does remember the 90s, it's going to have to come down to political leadership, isn't it here and talks ultimately. So thank you so much for covering it for us all week. And I know you'll be back in situ there and we'll see how it plays out. Thanks so much, Jeremy, for your time today. Thank you. You've been listening to the explainer podcast by the journal.ie. This episode was produced by Nikki Ryan. If you'd like to support all the work we do here, head to the journal.ie forward slash contribute to make a one-off donation or become a monthly subscriber. And you can always leave a review and a rating wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.