Why people raise monarch butterflies in captivity — and why scientists advise against it

0:00Support comes from the St. Louis Public Library Foundation. During these challenging times, free access to digital resources is a necessity. You can help our community stay connected. Support your St. Louis Public Library at slpl.org. This is St. Louis on the Air from St. Louis Public Radio. I'm Elaine Cha. Monarch butterflies have been fluttering their way through the St. Louis area. And that has been bringing delight to many people who are fans of the winged insects. And there are folks in the St. Louis region who have been doing what they can, what they feel they can, to support monarch populations which have seen declines over the past several years, if not decades. One of those folks is Sherry Firehammer. She's a St. Clair resident who raises monarch butterflies in her backyard.

1:04Sherry, welcome to the program. Thank you for having me. So Sherry, what sparked your interest in monarchs? Well, I've always had a love for monarchs. I remember monarchs as a child. Many, many of them in my backyard. My parents always had flowers. We had a lot of monarchs. And I watched them over the years decline. I didn't see quite as many. I never knew why I didn't see as many until I bought a butterfly milkweed. And found my first caterpillar on it and started doing research and finding out that they had declined. Their population have declined by about 80 to 90% in the last decade. So that kid that you got, what did that come from? The starting with the milkweed. Well, it was just the milkweed. And I didn't have any kind of kits or anything. I just watched my caterpillar, started reading, started doing research on monarch caterpillars

2:10and butterflies and learning about the decline of the population due to loss of habitat. A lot of milkweed, a lot of native plants have gotten cut down over the last several decades. If the monarchs don't have milkweed to lay their eggs on, which is the only thing that the monarch caterpillars will eat, we won't have monarch butterflies. And there was also a lot of forestry deforestation down in Mexico. The Mexican government has stopped that. They do have preserves down there now so that the monarchs can go down to Mexico. How did you start to raise butterflies? Well, I started, I really didn't start for a few years, maybe about three years. I was trying to just buy milkweed and more native plants for the monarchs to have a place to go to.

3:11And I would watch the little caterpillars turn into big caterpillars. I finally saw chrysalis. And then I saw a chrysalis that finally formed. And the next day I went out there and something had eaten it. And it just devastated me and I walked into the house and I told my husband immediately. I said, I'm buying enclosures. I'm going to start raising them. I'm going to conserve, you know, take care of these butterflies. How did you go to get the information in order to begin doing that? I just went online and just looked up monarch butterflies and just started reading a lot of information about them. I eventually thought there's so many Facebook groups out there for a lot of different things. There's got to be something for monarch butterflies. And I did happen to find a Missouri monarch lovers Facebook group. So I joined that and just kept reading and reading and watching videos and whatnot to learn all I could about monarchs.

4:19I'm not an expert by any means, but I have learned a lot in the last six years. How many butterflies have you raised in that time approximately approximately? 200. 200. I've already released as of this morning, 39 more. Backyard monarch reading, it is something that has some critics. Have you heard the case that's been made about breeding them as being harmful to the overall monarch population? Yes, I have. And I can totally understand that. I know that there's like two very different groups. Yes, you need to raise them in closures. No, you need to just let nature go about her business and do what they can.

5:20But there's so many other factors out there with the use of pesticides and herbicides, plus along with all the natural predators that monarchs and other insects have, they're just not getting their population back up. So yes, there's some people who say, no, you do not raise them indoors or in enclosures. And there's other people to say, but you got to help them as much as you can. I would rather have them just out in nature doing what they do naturally. I have seen so many of them disappear in my backyard, so I now collect them as eggs or little tiny caterpillars and raise them. Have you learned anything from the people who are in these groups that you are part of? I understand that you also started a Facebook group for people who are enthusiasts of monarchs. Yes, yes. I started this Facebook group as a way to get other people interested and learning about monarchs

6:28and why it's so important to take care of them, whether it's raising them, just planting milkweed, planting native or nectar flowers for them to have fuel to go either north or south on their journeys. In your view and in your experience, is there a wrong way to raise monarchs? I don't think so. I don't think there is. Some people will say, there way is the right way. I will, and some people will say, this way is the right way. I think there's a little kind of in the middle that you can do. But I mean, if you want to just raise them outdoors, that's fine. I choose to raise them right now in enclosures and I take very, very good care of them. It's like having a pet. I have to really clean their cages and make sure that they get fed

7:31and I spend several hours a day sometimes taking care of them. I don't let them just go. What does an enclosure look like? An enclosure. Well, it can be anything from a small round netting enclosure that I usually keep a couple of caterpillars in to rather large mesh enclosure that I can keep 10 to 15 of them in. What are some of the measures, Sherry, that you've taken to avoid causing harm to the monarch population? What I have done is, like I said, I try to keep their enclosures clean. They get cleaned out one to four or five times a day depending upon how big they are. I clean out all the grass, which is caterpillar poop basically. I make sure that they have clean, fresh leaves all the time to eat, clean out the old ones,

8:37put in new ones. I just do what I can to keep them healthy. It sounds like a great deal of work, your time and energy. What makes that worth it for you? To see that butterfly emerge from its chrysalis and its fly off. They don't say thank you, they don't say goodbye, they just take off. It's just beautiful to watch them flying. And ultimately, what is your goal with all of this? Ultimately, my goal is to get the word out about the decline of the milkweed and the nectar flowers and why it's important to have the monarch butterflies. They are pollinators. And just getting more and more people involved, which I have gotten a few more people, but just getting the word out to that so that maybe we don't have to raise them in enclosures.

9:39And there's enough milkweed and enough flowers to take care of all the monarchs. For their journeys going north and their journeys going back to Mexico. Sherry Firehammer is a St. Clair resident who raises monarch butterflies in her backyard. Sherry, thank you so much for coming to talk with us today. Thank you very much. We need to take a quick break. When we return, we'll talk about the science behind monarch migration. And here how humans doing the least might actually do the most for monarch numbers. This is St. Louis on the Air on St. Louis Public Radio. Welcome back. Today we're discussing what's up and about in the St. Louis area and that's monarch butterflies.

10:42If you're seeing more of these orange and black insects lately, they're currently migrating south to overwinter in Mexico, delighting butterfly lovers along the way. And before the break we heard from a St. Clair resident, who's been breeding monarchs in her backyard for several years now. And to bring us some scientific insights, we now have two scientists with the Sophia M. Sachs butterfly house. See your senior entomologist, Tad the bug dad Yan Kowski, and horticulturalist Caitlin Jackson. Welcome to both. Thank you. It's good to be back. Hello. Nice to be here. So you are among the people who are really excited to see these monarchs flying through St. Louis right now. How many are you seeing at the butterfly house in Chesterfield and around the region, especially in comparison to past years, Caitlin? I mean, seems pretty comparable to past years, but we definitely see a lot more around this time of year.

11:44I feel like I see at least 10 a day when I'm wandering out in the garden. And whether I'm seeing the same ones over and over again or not, I don't know. But Tad, how about you? Yeah, it starts with a trickle and turns into a flood. And I think we're starting to get into the flood mode. We're seeing a few more butterflies, I think, every day. And hopefully that's going to continue to grow. And how long will it last? Around St. Louis, we may see butterflies flying south into late October even. I learned a really cool word about how you describe a group of butterflies, a monarch butterflies, a kaleidoscope. And is that what it looks like? I mean, I don't think many of us are in a position to see that many all at once. But what is that experience like even to see 10? I mean, I guess I don't know if I would compare it to a kaleidoscope, but it is really cool to see so many fluttering at one time.

12:44I imagine it's way cooler to see them like in Mexico or in California during the migration. When the monarchs roost and they roost together in trees, you know, they can actually change the color of the foliage from green to orange and black and seeing so many monarch butterflies group up like that is a really unique experience. So Tad, you mentioned that it will be through October. We'll see these. How far have these monarchs traveled so far? And how long is it going to take for them to get to their destination? Well, some of the monarch butterflies have already started flying south from Canada. They may not have already made it to St. Louis yet, but some of the butterflies that started closer certainly are passing through the St. Louis region. It can take well over a month for these butterflies to complete their migration, perhaps up to two months for the ones starting to furthest away. There's some butterflies that will fly 3000 miles before they reach the overwintering grounds in Central Mexico. What makes this beyond what you've mentioned such a fascinating and astounding feat?

13:50Well, there's a lot of animals out there that undergo pretty crazy migrations, but usually it's the same animal that completed the migration last year that will continue this year, or perhaps just the offspring of one generation. But for the monarch butterflies, it was their great, great, great grandparents that made the migration first. It's three, four, or even five generations later, before the monarchs will migrate back to Mexico, and all the generations in between didn't do that, and they still find the same tiny forests in Central Mexico to head to. To make that long a trip, I'd imagine you need more than just a few snacks. We talked about milkweed. What is happening with milkweed that is available and what has been lost, Caitlin? Milkweed has decreased in these past years due to introduction of herbicide-resistant crops, leading to more herbicide use. Then also just land development.

14:50There's just less space for milkweed to grow wild. Where milkweed does grow wild, it's very few and far between. They're far apart from each other, which makes it difficult for the monarchs. We're just seeing less milkweed. Is it unique to butterflies and to rely solely on just one plant for nourishment? I mean, yeah, butterflies rely on one plant, like one species, or oftentimes a family of plants, and that's pretty unique to them. It's really important to have those host plants represented for butterflies. There's the lack of food as one challenge, but what are some of the other challenges that monarch butterflies face? A lot of researchers are looking not just at the host plants, but as the nectar source for these butterflies is their flying south. As you said, you need a lot of snacks for a migration that far, and they need to fuel up and get that energy from wildflowers.

15:50And Missouri has 0.3% or so of our native prairies remaining that you were filled with wildflowers 100, 200 years ago. And so there's a lot of evidence that it is the migration south that is impacting the most, and that's probably finding the resources they need to fuel up and power that migration south. What are some of the things, Caitlin, that people can do as individuals to help monarchs make their way? Yeah, I mean, the first thing, and I can't stress it enough, like the most important thing is to plant native plants purely. If you want to support native wildlife, you need to provide them with the native plants that they've interacted with for thousands of years, but also having consistent blooming throughout the year. So, you know, plants that bloom in the spring, plants that bloom in the summer, and then most importantly, during the fall, during that migration, they need to have fall nectar, and there is not a lot of popular fall blooming annuals. So having those natives, like Golden Rod and Astor,

16:52that bloom very consistently in the fall are important. And there are various kinds of milkweed? There is. Yeah, there's lots of species of milkweed, and all of them work well. The only one that we don't recommend is tropical milkweed, just because there is some research that shows that when monarchs encounter tropical milkweed in this region, it can kind of screw them up because they wouldn't naturally encounter a tropical milkweed in this region. What are some of the other kinds of things that, you know, to Caitlin's point, that would kind of screw up or mess up or impede their capacity to get where they need to go? So we've shown through research that you basically need really healthy butterflies to be able to survive a 3,000 mile journey. You know, it would be tough for a human to run a marathon if you have the flu. And so if there are anything that's sort of starting the butterflies off with a decreased chance,

17:52it's going to really impact their ability to survive the migration and then survive the winter. And so that can be diseases like OE is a pathogen that butterflies can get that's sort of comparable to having the flu. There's some issues that arrive from eating the wrong plants or being raised in proper conditions that may make them smaller or may make them lighter or weaker, and as a result they won't survive the migration. And on that note, you know, in the first part of our show, we talked with someone who has been breeding monarchs in her backyard. What do you make a tad of the entire movement as it were to boost monarch populations by raising them at home or in any sort of a fabricated space until they're ready for release? Yeah, so what I always like to point out is I love the enthusiasm and the support that the monarch butterfly gets from so many people.

18:57This is definitely a species that can use that support. I always caution people to make sure that they're, you know, doing what's absolutely best for the monarch butterfly. There is increased evidence that if not done in just the right way, that it can be problematic for the butterflies. There's research that have shown that they're lighter weight on average, they're weaker and smaller when raised in captivity. And as a result, they're sort of starting at a pretty severe disadvantage to be able to complete that migration. You also need to be very careful about diseases and pathogens so that if you are then releasing them back into the wild, that you're not perhaps exposing wild bread monarch butterflies to those pathogens as well. And I understand that there is something also about the way that in the chrysalis there's interaction with light.

19:59Yeah, there's a lot of studies that have shown that monarch butterflies, I shouldn't actually get programmed by the environment to be able to understand light cycles. It's day length changes as one of the factors that will telemotic butterfly when it's time to fly south. They also run into problems with temperature changes as well. There's evidence that climate change may delay their migration south. But if they get programmed by internal lighting as opposed to the sun outside that can interfere with their internal clocks of when it's time to head south. We're speaking today with Ted Yan Kausky, who's a senior entomologist at the Missouri Botanical Gardens Butterfly House, as well as with Horticulturalist Kate Lund Jackson, who's also with the Sophia M. Sachs Butterfly House in Chesterfield. Ted just mentioned what's happening with temperature. How much has climate change also affected the amount of milkweed and native plants that are necessary to monarch butterflies, Caitlin?

21:04Yeah, I mean, it has an impact really probably less on the plants growth, but more on the time that they bloom. And that's the real problem. I noticed even this year that things were blooming super early. And I was kind of worried about how that would impact things that have, like I said before, native plants and native animals have interacted for thousands of years. And that interaction is changing, not because of the plants deciding that they just want to change their bloom time, but because climate change is affecting their bloom time. And that's affecting their relationships. So the animals just aren't catching up as quickly with the plants changing their bloom time. Well, we are seeing, fortunately, monarchs here, to what extent are the spaces and places important to think about?

22:04When we're considering, you know, the monarchs actually emerging from their chrysalis, like, where do they do that, Ted? So in the wild, the monarch butterfly caterpillars will usually leave the milkweed. It's when I'm talking to people who are monitoring caterpillars in their yard, there's often this moment of alarm where I had big caterpillars, and now they're gone. And oftentimes people assume that they may have been eaten or a bird got them or something like that. In reality, they're going to find their own little area that they feel comfortable and safe to pupate and form their chrysalis, and usually that's somewhere far away from the milkweed. After they emerge, they're going to take a day or so to adjust and dry their wings, and then they start looking for food, and around this time they start looking to fly south. Are there certain parts of St. Louis where this transitioning from caterpillar to butterflies you've described it, where it happens a lot, like, is there a hot spot within St. Louis? Is St. Louis itself a great place to observe this?

23:09Well, what we've found is that the butterflies are really desperate to find milkweed, and if you plant milkweed, they're going to find it. If you plant wildflowers, they're going to find it for food. And so if you think about it as islands in the ocean, these animals are passing through looking for food for themselves as adults are looking for places to lay eggs, and they're usually very good at finding these plants. So even a small backyard garden can make an impact for a butterfly who's looking for a place to lay eggs or find food for themselves. As to the planting of milkweed, Caitlin, is there a good time to plant, you know, for next year's migration, I mean that migration involves a spring trip north and an autumn trip down to Mexico. So, one's a good time to plant. You know, the best times to plant are fall and spring. The only time I wouldn't plant is summer and winter, because summer is crazy hot, and it's hard to keep those baby plants alive and thriving whenever you plant them in the summer, and then winter obviously the ground is frozen and you can't plant in the plants' redormant.

24:18So if you did want to plant for next year's migration, you could plant this fall, or you could plant next summer, and even those small plants will offer some food for the monarchs. Is there anything to keep in mind about planting well, so that there is actually growth and not just a lot of effort with some compost left over? Oh yeah, making sure you're planting in the right space, so paying attention to light requirements and water requirements of whatever you're planting. But, you know, if you plant Missouri natives, they're used to Missouri native weather and conditions, so really just as long as you have them in the right light and you give them water, they should do well. Yeah. Todd, a couple of years ago, we talked with Tierra Curry, a senior scientist with the Center for Biological Diversity, and with your colleague, Chris Hartley, who's the Manager of Living Collections, Education Facilities, at the Butterfly House. And at that time, Tierra mentioned monarchs kind of being in Q or in line, so to speak, to be placed on the list of officially threatened or endangered species.

25:27So what is the official status for monarchs? So the status of them being listed for protection under the Endangered Species Act is still up in the air or delayed. To my knowledge, they've been put in a state of sort of permanent delay where there's no imminent plan for them to be listed. What we tell people is that that can be somewhat disheartening to hear, but we can still do what we can to help. We can go out there and plant native plants and make sure that there are lots of wildflowers blooming for them in the fall. I think these are the best ways to help them, even if they aren't getting the support at a national level. We can look at things that are being impacted by humans and try to help them. We don't always need to protect them from natural causes, but if we look at things like habitat loss that were man-made, individuals can do that by planting native plants in their own backyard and make a real difference.

26:27As we close, and four folks who are interested in raising a different kind of butterfly tide, one that's not threatened in the same way that monarchs are, is there one that you would suggest starting with? I always recommend black swallowtails. They're a native species here in Missouri. You'll find them all over the St. Louis region, and they feed on herbs. You can plant parsley, dill, or fennel, especially parsley. They're going to find it if you have a big planter of it outside. You've got a pretty good chance, almost 100% chance you'll find black swallowtail caterpillars on it. They're pretty safe to bring inside. You can raise them with a little guy at home who's excited to learn about caterpillars up close. And worst case scenario, if you don't get caterpillars, you still get herbs that you can use in your kitchen. Tadjankowski is senior entomologist at the Missouri Botanical Gardens, Butterfly House, and Caitlin Jackson is an order cultureist there at Sofia M. X. Butterfly House as well.

27:27Thank you so much for stopping by today. Thanks for having us. Thank you. This episode was produced by Emily Woodbury, audio engineering and podcast design by Aaron Doerr. Our executive producer is Alex Hoyer, St. Louis on the Arizona production of St. Louis Public Radio. Understanding starts here. Do you find yourself regularly listening to episodes of St. Louis on the air? Suggest us to a friend you think might enjoy our conversations. And leave a serve you in rating on Apple podcasts on the App Store. It's the simplest way to help people discover our show. Thanks. St. Louis Public Radio is a member supported service of the University of Missouri, St. Louis.

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