Will a 6 Nations match happen in the USA?

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1:03You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit. See actual appointment openings and book instantly. I recently had a last minute health issue pop up and you just see someone fast instead of calling around or sitting on hold. I found a doctor on ZockDoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful. Ready to be seen? Download the ZockDoc app today. That's ZockDoc. Zoc. DoC. DoC. And book that appointment on your to-do list. Hello, this is the Ruck, the journalist's rugby podcast from The Times and the Sunday Times. Welcome along. I'm Alfie Reynolds and coming up today, Rugby's greatest rivalry reached its conclusion in the USA.

2:03The Springboks take the series 3-1 with a commanding fourth test victory. Speaking of the US, could a six nations match take place? State side, the Red Roses were back in action and back winning. And why has Steve Borthwick been given a contract extension covering all of that with the panel alongside me? We have Alex Lowe. How are you Alex? Very well. Alfie, thanks for having us in your new home. You are being very generous by contributing this to me. But it's good to have you here with us last week. So you like the new surroundings? Yes, very nice. A little bit different, isn't it? It's feel like we've gone up in the world. Also alongside Charlie Morgan, right, Charlie? I'm at, yeah, I'm climateised now. So ready to hit the ground running. And when he says a climateised for those that are watching on the Timesport YouTube page, it means he's wearing a second layer because the air con in here is effective. And also back with us, Elgin Oldman, right, Elgin? I've heard that, yes. It's been a bit strange now that the greatest rivalry is over. Because I feel like we've been thinking about it and researching about it for about past four months now. So it's strange that it's all over about still some stuff to talk about, I'm sure. And a big part of that research was rugby's greatest rivals.

3:06The series that we did, you can find it on the Rugby to six part series, which goes through the history, the rivalry between the box and the all blacks. So if you haven't listened already, then do go and search it out. But we'll start there, shall we? We'll start there, shall we? Fourth test in America. So in Africa, 43 New Zealand, 28. I mean, Charlie, we said last week that a lot of our discussions was we viewed the three test matches in South Africa as kind of the main part of this series. We expected the fourth test to dip in intensity and quality in your opinion. Did it? I think that the injuries that New Zealand suffered in the third test compromised them quite considerably, taking out Ardie Savaire as well as Quinter Pire, Luke Jacobson, and they've been so important to them. And then Savaire just, his star quality clearly led to a little bit of a dip for the all blacks. I still think there were certainly in it. And until that controversial Curliorensa try in the second half, the margins were fine again. But I think it was a real reinforcement of the quality South Africa have.

4:10Not necessarily a reinforcement of their depth, although we know their depth is amazing, because they didn't make wholesale changes, did they? But the consistency of their selection, contrasted with how New Zealand had to change things up and therefore lost a bit of cohesiveness, and that really told. And I thought, actually, that the most telling thing about the game was how South Africa played with a little bit more freedom. And I think they look better for that, and they look more rounded for that. And that was a real warning to the size that they've got to try and take them down next year. Yeah, Alex, you were there in South Africa for a couple of the test matches. And I suppose if I was to try and distill this series into totally oversimplifying it, would be that the box got better throughout in New Zealand. I think New Zealand that battled hard and were excellent in the first test were still good in test 2 and 3. But South Africa have been able to really progress through it. Have you made a bit both the two test matches you're at and then also as it's reached its conclusion? Yeah, definitely. The two tests at the best part of the game and the Cape Town game were like,

5:12Epic are dialled in from South Africa. They were both huge occasions, but the step up in quality and intensity, from those games compared to what we saw in July, was huge. What was fascinating from the first one was that New Zealand got so little foothold in the game, but the sharpness, the execution was so good that they pulled themselves out of a hole and won it. And that sharpness was the theme of their tour, really, wasn't it? They don't need many chances to score this. They're willing us to move the ball to run into space, always kept them in the game. The problem they had was that each test, there was another failing, scrum in one game, the line out, they were having to then bail out the front because test two, the line out was a disaster. But all the way through, they couldn't win the aerial battle. And against South Africa, that's a critical facet of the game, which although they can always be a threat when they've got the ball,

6:13if you can't be sure going into a test whether you can have a two or three of the fundamentals in place, then you're going to struggle. As you were right, South Africa were proficient in that first game. They just couldn't convert the pressure that they brought into the points. And once they solved that problem, then it was always a case of New Zealand trying to find a way to overhaul them. I felt that to be able to deliver that level of consistency, I guess the dormant they had in test one, but without the points on the board, but then to deliver it, test two through and four, just reinforce because how big a challenge is going to be for anyone to beat them. Yeah, well, maybe on that point, let's go on to a real turret. Actually, I said this last week, but I still think it's impressive the series we've had and how entertaining it's been, and how close it's been for the most part, given that New Zealand was second best in the scrum, line out didn't function, lost the aerial game massively. I think it says an awful lot for the stuff that New Zealand did well. I mean, Elgin, I think it's been really telling this series of discussions within kind of rugby,

7:17that it feels like a bit of a line in the sand almost, like right now we've got about a year to go until the World Cup. We just had the two best teams in the world going hammer and tongue at it for four tests in a row. What are the big takeaways, you think, for both of these teams? I think I just want to start by saying, I think what summed up how dominant the stream box on the moment was the fact that more in Overlandenburg was the match in the fourth test when I don't think many people would have, other than people in the weeds of the game, he wouldn't have had a huge amount of name recognition. You'd think of Cobras Ryan, our grant Williams, and then they just throw in Moorne, Van the Burgundy's, they're out in the match in the fourth test. So we know again that the spring box have got two, three players in just about every position that can do just about an all court game. So nothing that we didn't really know there, it's just been a really good hammering home of that. The old acts we've seen them just rediscover a sense of speed and purpose that I think they lost under Scott Robertson now, under Dave Rene with this first campaign sorted. Again, we saw it in Baltimore that some really excellent close quarters handling

8:19that really put the spring box in trouble on a few occasions. I think what I'd love to see for next year is so many teams will know they can't match the spring box up the middle necessarily. The old acts have shown that if you have a sense of guy or a sense of speed about it, you can trouble them. I think back to how Japan did it 11 years ago, obviously, it was very different 11 years ago. That was the start of the spring box downturn. But when I see teams like Wales say we don't have the strength to compete with these big teams, I always think, well, why aren't you trying to do other things? A sense of invention, a sense of guile. And I hope that over the next year, the old acts show that you can find things and try things a bit different to get beyond the team that you know you can't quite match up the middle. 100%. I think I was reading a lot of Australia votes about it on the Sunday times and Clive Wood would post it to me on LinkedIn referring to the idea of what that England 0-3 team did was have a mentality of there's no point chasing the best in the world. We have to become the best in the world with our game and our identity.

9:19And this series is reinforced. Although it finished 3-1, it was so tight for so long reinforced that the rest of the world in England and Ireland's they can be the only way to beat someone like South Africa on their day. It's to do it your way and not try and replicate them. And I was in England camp last week asking some of the coaches about exactly that point that has really been round time I think this summer that if England are going to try and become what they want to become, they have to do it their way. And I think a lot of the time understeadball has been chasing trends and Razzie Razmer in this sort of typically tying in Cheatway made that point when we were over in Johannesburg that he praised Steve Borthwick for being a detailed coach who was very good at following trends. And we know exactly what Razzie was getting at with that. I was like able to say it and it not sound like an insult but we all know that. But it is an insult. It was Razzie to a tee. It looked like it was one thing but it was actually the other.

10:21And I think an England now having come through their July that has to be the challenge for them and the rest. And I think what's really interesting for New Zealand and watching how they've tried to play, you know they're not pretending they can beat South Africa. And we know that they don't have those strengths as good as South Africa have them. And not many teams do France might have the power. But the way that New Zealand have tried to move and attack space and as I long chat with our friend Ben Pagan who was really going through that kind of detail of how it's very French like very to lose like it's not a copy but it's the idea of keep the ball alive, move it, play it speed and try and bat your way to beat them and obviously South Africa won 100% in test one. But what it does show is that on a given day if you have full faith in who you are, your identity you can certainly sting them and you can beat them. And I think that's where England's just from England perspective but all the chasing pack

11:21you have to be fully buy into your identity which I feel the all blacks now are in the way they weren't last year. Yeah I'd say two things on top of that is one I agree with it broadly. I would say there's certainly areas where they're almost non-negotiable that you have to be better at. The air is one good sort of example. But sides have to sort of confront South Africa's strengths and they need to polish up those areas like the air, like the scrum, like the line up. I would say that's why I have a bit of faith in France being able to go to tow with South Africa because they were really struggled in the air in the 2025 six nations. That was one big reason that they got turned over to England. But in the 2026 six nations they were a lot tighter there. Another and the second point I wanted to make is just to sort of back up what both of you guys said. I had a really interesting chat with Mark Maples of who's the head of pathways at the RFU. And he said that he's had a lot of conversations around the concept that you could look at an Irish team,

12:26you could look at South African team, you could look at a French team and they could be wearing blank shirts but you'd have a really good idea of who they were from just the way they're playing and watching them. And England have wrestled with that for a long time. It's not necessarily a recent thing. And one reason for that is maybe having this big purple, you sort of, you maybe go too far towards what moulding it towards what your players are rather than having that conviction. But I do think the conviction as the point you made out is the key thing this World Cup. Who's going to have the convictions put their chips into their style of play and back it to be able to go? You can't just do a against a team at South Africa or any of the best teams. That's not what they're saying you're still going to be able to try and compete but take the line out as one example. South African knew that they weren't New Zealand were never going to mould them over. So they were competing inside their own 22, they're competing in the air because they knew they could. So if you know that isn't a weapon then you're going to struggle. So you have to be able to contest in these areas.

13:28I'm not saying you just ignore them. You have to contest but you have to do it in your way. And the South Africa's might hate the fact that New Zealand were kind of Japan style scrums the ball was half second and out. But that's the way that New Zealand were trying to play. It's the way Japan played it in that one game in 2015. You have to find your way of doing it but you can't neglect some of the key areas and for New Zealand. It was just a masterclass in the air from South Africa and a lot of the pieces but that mean Valemso and their wings were they just roll the skies and they were phenomenal winning everything. Yeah it makes it so fascinating that game in November at the Stad de France just because you feel like France at the moment I don't think they might necessarily attack quite as well as we've seen New Zealand. But you do think they're probably the most all-round team to be able to take on South Africa. So what is their approach and what is the kind of balance in their game? I cannot wait for that fixer Alex. I think there's also it's not a new development but it's one of these I was asking Lee Blackit and Richard Wigg was worth it was about with a number of playmakers that teams are now deploying.

14:30The all Blacks have three with Jordi at 12 South Africa have a ten and a 15 who are so integral and I think you're going to say France obviously ended the summer by having Jalabair playing it at 15. Obviously Ramos can do that as well and that's it's not a new development but it's something that really kind of I think became so it will become so critical going forward. It was a real takeaway from I guess from the rugby champ and the summer that having those twin playmakers and I was talking to Marcus Smith and George Furbank about exactly that over at Quinn's. That's what the whole Quinn's season is going to be based around those two dovetailing. What did Blackit and we was with say an answer to those things? So Blackit was he told a story of when he was a bath and he told you have a gun you have to have two and a half. In fact you have to have two and a half playmakers two out and out and then someone who's comfortable and they said and then we pick a midfield of will but only Lawrence and then we would win the game comfortably.

15:34You can do it you can do it in that sort of South African way of day, lend in Jesse Creole but his point was you have to have two and ideally you have a third who's like an organiser. So a Jordi Barrett or an England case like a Seb Atkinson who will cover huge amounts of ground and be an organiser as well as having the two kind of established playmakers at 10 and 15. I think the importance of so I had to pick a sort of composite team of South African using it from this series and Will Jordan was one of the first names I thought even though Ethan Hooker was kind of probably superior in the air on that wing for a lot of the series but him as a roaming playmaker it's probably one of the half. So you've got a ten and a 15 as one and two half as Jordi Barrett who's a unicorn and can do everything and then if you've got a right wing who can roam and overload sides and not just kind of pick up touches on the other wing but be a distributed towards the other wing. I think that's really important I think that's going to be a big kind of thing we'll see over the course of this wild cup cycle.

16:39It's possible France might have four playmakers at the Stad de France because people might have seen Louis B. L. B. A. had 15 minutes to fly after in pre-season so that's just something I'm just going to throw in there at the moment. Yeah no age of positionless rugby and me and Andre Esthazen was consistently coming on in the pack wasn't in this series so we're certainly there should we get on to the US side of this the fourth test it happened in Baltimore we've seen a number of these matches and test matches take place in America before typically Alex I'd say generally they haven't particularly. Works like the the island all black swan when I then first beat the all blacks is kind of held up as the pinnacle isn't it but a lot of these games the atmosphere has haven't been great or they haven't sold out or there's been various issues now it did look like it was a sell out at the weekend but was this a success in terms of taking a match. State side and that can open up all the various conversation points and issues around this topic yeah I mean it definitely changed the feeling of the series in as we discussed and start. You had this discussion about really is it three test series plus one you know the game if that game was first it would have looked a different game because it was the players would have been full speed and intensity would have been high and the all blacks would have been a full strength it looked like a good occasion to sell out the ball to all over stadium is a feat now world rugby put a lot of money into happening they could have taken it to Dublin they could have taken it to Qatar they probably would have done if Qatar always have been a come on board as a sponsor.

18:04Which they didn't because of what we know we know I yeah spain was also an option but world rugby. Topped up the money available to South Africa and using them because they're trying to make an imprint in America but they're not trying to make it imprint to break America that ambition which was there when they. When they gave the world cup to America has been long abandoned they know they're not going to break America or they're trying to do. Is access a small percentage of the TV rights and the commercial value that's available in America and so this game in Baltimore which was an unusual city choice no real huge tourism market or anything but was was designed because they're. It's part of the process of identifying cities and building databases for the 2031 world cup so to have had 67,000 the year 65,000 record crowd for rugby game in America success every all those fans and all on a database success New Zealand

19:04Africa will have earned money extra extra money from going there than if they played it in South Africa success allow them to activate commercial partners. You know South Africa one of their big things at the moment is trying to broaden out of their market the African market so the sponsors had you know the shirts sponsor had been an African mobile phone company for example. They've now got Nike as a they now got co co co co they've got the trying to expand their brand in a way that the all blacks have done so they were able to activate some of those sponsorships which from a commercial perspective is important so again success but how big and impacted it make in America beyond those who at the game at the start of the NFL season the production of it was marred by the communications with the referee and. And then the game is a minute break in the middle of the game which is which is which is shambolic when when they announced that the series when they announced the game was going to be in Baltimore spoke to re and over wholzer who runs essay rugby and he said it before signing up to it they'd sought and received assurances from the promoters TG and Wasserman who called the team had come on board to help with the whole production of it assurances that the same issues that.

20:24And they had to do that under mind the second New Zealand. Item is Hargo wouldn't be a problem this time and they were a problem this time and you know is that a big deal overall what if no one front from outside the game is really watching it then maybe. Maybe you could say they would have a way with it but you only have to look at what the NFL did in Melbourne. In a cricket venue Aussie rules venue that has staged top level rugby in rugby league to show what needs to be done what can be done. they took over the city. The spectacle was extraordinary in the MCG and we've been there for Lions Test, I've been there for State of Origin. It's difficult to have a sport play on a rectangular field in that enormous cauldron but rugby has done it and the NFL staged a remarkable occasion and the detail that they go to in the NFL, I know they got loads of money but the detail they go to to make it perfect is extraordinary, like they're hiring out the Marvel stadium and they

21:24refit everything in the MCG because it's a showcase, you know, 100,000 people, more people watch that game that went to the Lions Second Test in the MCG, over 100,000 people and yet when rugby went to Baltimore, did the same, there was devils in the in the detail, do you want to know that? They're issues that the communication thing, it just shows that the detail isn't the same and if you want to go make an impact in America, you have to come in and have everything right, just like the NFL did in Melbourne. I think a point that you mentioned that I really want to highlight so I think it's significant here is the sense that this is no longer about rugby cracking America, right? Originally when the two World Cups, like the men's and then the women's World Cups that coming up in America were first awarded, there was a sense of the sport trying to, you know, increase in those markets whereas now, as you say, it's very much more about getting a small slice of that massive commercial pie. So in answer to kind of your question of how much are these games

22:24breaking through or growing the game? Well, not really right, which actually gets me onto the other side of this story, it certainly links. Last week, loads of people would have seen this. World Rugby has ambitions for a six nations game to take place in the United States with this weekend's Baltimore test between South Africa and New Zealand expected to increase interest in transatlantic fixtures. I would question whether these sorts of games do increase interest in terms of America in those sorts of fixtures, but maybe they do if there is a whole big pot of money on the table, but six nations games happening in America, Charlie, you're cringing slightly? Yeah, it's just one of those things that a concept that comes up and I immediately just thought, no, and that was because, and that's, and it was really interesting you mentioned the NFL Melbourne game because that was what I thought of. And now, the NFL, and again, really difficult to compare them both, but the NFL now have a decent history of bringing these showcase games abroad, and I think it is accepted around

23:26the league by everyone as a necessary evil to promote the product, to do it properly with a lot of money behind it, but crucially, they do it as part of a schedule that has 17 regular games, as part of a longer, longer league campaign. I think if you're doing it for a six nations game, when sides have five and a maximum of three home games, and somebody is giving that up, I think that compromises from a competition point, a standpoint, that compromises it a hell of a lot, and it feels to me trying to certainly meddling with a six nation, it feels particularly dangerous because of how it's growing as a commercial, it's a very strong commercial entity, probably one of the very strongest in the sport, but from a competition standpoint, look at the competition tournament we've just had this year, fantastic. And so the timing, I think, of this coming out made it jar for me just because of where we are with those two things. If they were to take a six nations game

24:28to America, do we have any sense of which one it would be? The one that gets mentioned is Ireland Italy because with all of these things, what people try and do is pick an area of America that has links to historic links to certain places, which is why France has always talked about they're going to play New Orleans. I think New Orleans, Pelicans are playing the NBA game in Paris, for example, and they're playing against San Antonio Spurs who've got Wemba Nyama who's from Paris. So they always try and do these things that have links, which is why the big Irish American community, a big Italian American community, it's been mentioned Boston or New York possibly. I think if you wanted to have a £5 bet, the 2029 Six Nations game that is an Italy home game against Ireland, that might be the one you're looking at, but not that I think that would happen, but I think that is the sort of game that their thinking might happen. Were it to be a six nations game? I say that an Italy home game would be the one right now because they're the biggest, certainly, we follow England. If you took the England fans out of the Stadio Olympico, it would be less than half full. It's the bigger way trip that so many people do. So in that sense, Italy would probably

25:34see some benefit in going songs that the money would work, but I don't know why you'd compromise a six nations that way. The nation's championship is supposed to be something different. We've already had games being played on neutral territory in that competition. If you want to test things and try things and break boundaries, then the nation's championship is set up to do that. The other thing I would say about breaking America is that rugby won't break it in the way that you want, like the Beatles could break America. For football to break America, it's required the signing of David Beckham on hundreds of millions and then David Beckham buying his own club and signing Messi. That's to try and get a foothold for professional football in America. Even then, you could argue it hasn't broken it up. That's not the intention. It's not to say that a world cup, they can't have a legacy. There are rugby communities in the states and there

26:34are universities that play rugby. That can't have an impact if athletes who are going to university who don't make an American football team, but they see these big rugby occasions and rugby is available to them at university and some high schools. Then that can have a positive legacy. I'm not saying that that isn't the potential from hosting the two world cups in America. It definitely is, but it's not the driving force anymore because I think they know that the world game knows that establishing a significant professional league in the states is so hard to do. It's now about big games, big occasions, big sponsors. The knock on effect of that hopefully is that those small pockets of rugby communities and those universities that do offer scholarships and give young athletes in America a chance to play the game. It can give them a boost along the way, but we can't say that that's now the intent. We've seen most sports realise that expansion doesn't necessarily mean transplanting an entire

27:37part of your sport. It means taking games somewhere. Think about 15 years ago, it seemed almost inevitable that Jacksonville Jaguars would become the London Jaguars and it hasn't happened and it probably never will now because they've realised we don't actually need a team there. We've got the three games in London. They're a nice nine international games in total. This season started with Melbourne. We've seen rugby league come to that realisation as well. So often the history of rugby league has set the team there. Oh, it hasn't worked. So they've seen it. Oh, that hasn't worked. Now the game in Las Vegas, jumping on with the NRL, and next season, a Wigan warrington game in Dublin as well. It's just an opportunity of going, we have a product, we're going to take it to a city, try and get them interested, and then we're going to go back. But as long as that is a show, a spectacle like Alex said, then that's what it relies upon. Yeah, I just do think it enhances the six nations by taking a game to America. Well, that's the thing for me and I hate being that person in rugby that as soon as there's something new or something different, you're like, no, but with this I am, no, don't do it, because the six nations, as you've all said, is so good. It works so well. It's basically the

28:40only thing annually, anyway, in sport that works so well every single time. As you say, Alex, I think if you're going to do it, do it with the Nations Championship, which is new, is already at neutral venues. That makes a lot more sense. But I think doing it with the six nations, for me, and I think most rugby fans will probably say is a big no-no. We will leave it there. We'll have a very quick break and then the other side we're going to be asking why has Steve Bauthwijk been given a contract to send? This ad is sponsored by ZockDoc. Hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Have you

29:45been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't want to make the call, or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist, but you have no idea where to start? I find that's especially true when you move. It's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZockDoc. As a busy podcaster parent and someone who's always juggling a million things, I love anything that makes life easier. ZockDoc lets you search and compare local in network doctors with over 250,000 providers across more than 200 specialties. You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings and book instantly. I recently had a last minute health issue pop up and I need to see someone fast instead of calling around or sitting on hold. I found a doctor on ZockDoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful. Ready to be seen? Download the ZockDoc app today. That's ZockDoc. Z-O-C-D-O-C and book that appointment on your to-do list. Whatever bike you're looking for from Mountain to Road, either pedal powered or

30:46electric, we've got what you want ready for super fast delivery. Quality gear at prices you won't find in your average bike shop. BikesOnline.com. Ride more for less. So welcome back. You may well have seen last week this news. Got a lot of attention, particularly in England rugby circles, but the RFU will extend Steve Borthwicks contract to the end of the 2028 Six Nations. It's basically an extension of four months really taking him from the end of the World Cup until the end of the following Six Nations. England did the same with John Mitchell ahead of the Women's World Cup last year. They essentially, Gents, have said they don't want coaches looking for their next job during a World Cup year. As you would expect Alex with England with Steve Borthwicks, always a big reaction to this. A lot of fans saying it's unnecessary, it's undeserved. They have a point, or is actually is there not too much in this? So, well, it's not as a show of faith in Steve Borthwicks because if they were absolutely adamant that Steve was the man to leading them to the future, as Ireland are with Andy Farrell,

31:49then as Salafiq are with Razirasmus, he'd have been signed up for the next four-year cycle. So it's not a show of faith in him. So I wouldn't read into, like I just showed Borthwicks what a column about. He hasn't deserved the extension. It's not an extension based on performance. For me, it's an extension to make the RFU's life more straightforward. It's a hedge, as Charlie was saying just before. I think the RFU are trying to avoid the two worst-case scenarios. So, scenario one, 2015, Stuart Lancaster gets given a mega-new deal, England on bomb out in the group stages, and they have to sack him. If you look at New Zealand in the last World Cup, they almost sack the Infoster in the year before the World Cup. He won in South Africa, he clung on, but by the time they got to the World Cup, Scott Robinson had already been appointed as his successor, and he nearly wins the Webellas trophy they lose by a point to the spring box in the final down to 14 men. So they were that close to having a scenario where Ian Foster wins

32:52the World Cup and he sacked on the same day. So those two scenarios, it's very tricky trying to manage a succession plan around a World Cup because the RFU, as Conor Shae said on that podcast, they seem to put everything in the World Cup basket, which is a mistake, in my opinion. But what they've done here is give themselves a safety net, a hedge so that they're not backing Bawthwick and then having to sack him, but they're also not creating this awkward situation where they're trying to recruit a replacement now. But it doesn't preclude them from firing him straight after the World Cup. If they need to, he's not guaranteed to get the last six nations, but he could still go on to do that six nations, it just buys them time to work out what they want to do for the next four years. It's just interesting to me that it's not a show of faith in the head coach. Yeah, it doesn't guarantee that he's going to stay longer. I think there's a lot of England fans will be thinking, why, and if we'll be staying beyond the World Cup, and actually,

33:53to be fair to them, to me anyway, it does feel like the end of that World Cup is a fairly natural point for the whole Bawthwick project to come to an end. Alex mentioned it there, though, Charlie, Connoisse in that interview with the BBC spoke about the World Cup a lot, which is often what we hear with England, isn't it? And the RFU that building towards the World Cup, judges on the World Cup, which seems, is it incredibly foolish that you're judging like a whole ten-year, a whole four years on a knockout game where you get a red card or injuries or whatever the case may be, and you might be unlucky on the day? It seems fickle, doesn't it? I think the theory goes that England multi-club system benefits more from that really, really precious extended preseason. They have where they can build cohesion to a degree that they don't, to a level that they don't get a chance to do in other tournaments. I, England have a good record in World Cup. Steve Hawthick has a good record as a coach in World Cup, whether as a head coach in 2023 or previously with Japan and

34:54England. And I think that's important to remember, but I do think that quite an interesting contrast to draw is with Ireland. So Ireland supporters have to deal with a lot of sort of jibes about their World Cup record, which is really poor, but over the last two World Cup cycles, their consistency in six nations. And actually also what they've achieved outside of those windows with serious wins in New Zealand. They went to South Africa and drew one one there. I think under Andy Farrell, they've achieved a great deal. And I think they've, their supporters have got a lot of enjoyment from that, whereas England supporters are always dealing with, it's been leveled at this RFU regime before, but Jan Tomorrow, we've a big point that Conor O'Shae made was that they've, they feel that they've fixed the pathway systems that were kind of broken around 2020 issues. I think I'm right in saying. And they feel that they're on a good footing

35:57with that. They've won one under 20s World Cup. They haven't, they've not done that since, but they do feel like there's a generation coming through that's going to give them a lot of quality. I think the short answer is it did feel jarring to me to continue to listen to judges on the World Cup because, and actually I think if to go on to expand on what Alex was saying, I don't agree. It's certainly not an endorsement for the Fourth World Cup. There's short contract extension. And yeah, it's a reflection of where the sides have been over the course of this World Cup cycle, which is two steps forward, two steps forward, both three steps forward, saying we'll give them, in the case of that 12 test running winning run, but the six nations were certainly two more back, at least. And now they're sort of treading water again and trying to get momentum towards 2027. Charlie mentioned the 2023 World Cup, where obviously the England's Steve Borthick same came so close to doing well that tournament. I think I'd be shocked if anyone's opinion of Steve Borthick has changed in the past four years based off the circumstances in which he took over the

37:00job where they took so long over Eddie Jones that they got rid of him so close to World Cup. They had to parachute Steve Borthick in earlier slash possibly later than they would have wanted to. People will still remember that game against France, to Wickenham early on in his reign. People will also remember the fact that with a few months time he did turn a team into a team that could do well at the World Cup. And it feels like that little period has on the one hand hamstrung people's opinions I've heard ever since, but equally possibly is keeping him in the job now because they know what he did in that that quick turnaround, whereas maybe if he'd started after the 2023 World Cup he might have been gone by now, but that little period where the RFU prevaricated over Eddie Jones then brought Steve Borthick in, it feels like everything that's happening now is still as a result of things that happened four years ago really. Conor Rache sort of rather mangled his language, but he said England are unequivocably probably one of the five teams that can win that World Cup and they will go in with a puncture's chance. As they always do as Charlie said because the way that England's really base everything

38:03and the coaches look at it now, give me the players for two months and I can turn them into something which is essentially what Borthick did in 23 and they're a point away from beating South Africa. Again as it was in 23 the draw really lends itself to England based on form. Now if New Zealand were to drop their group gaming as Australia it looks a bit different, but for England to reach the final their route on form would be beatwells in the group stages, be Italy, Ireland, Australia and Ireland. So those teams can reach the final without having to play New Zealand, France or South Africa. So you've got four years of largely under achievement and then going well beat those teams to reach the final we're saying everything's okay and that's the problem I have with that whole approach that the RFU taken and coaches within it and Conor was again sort of talking about wow he's the eternal optimist, he's quite a good company in that sense but he like

39:03when England were winning he's like well don't get so excited because they're just winning games but don't go over excited and now they've had what he could call a horrendous six nations and a decent summer but not a commanding summer so we don't get so down. Sport is about results it's only under pressure coaches and under pressure regimes that go well just stay level everyone just stay level if we're all saying level there's no point in sport because the joy of winning is why anyone does it you know English will be talking about winning grand slams which is tough and rare but that's what it should be targeting every year instead of trying to explain away subpar performances in in a six nations on the basis that well if we can go and beat whales Italy Australia, Ireland and reach the final then happy days then four years has been a six years success and I don't think I think it needs to be more scrutiny on an annual basis and that's Stuart Bosn's wrote in his piece the Six Nations Championship is an annual examination of

40:07where you are in just in the Northern Hemisphere and England have had one second place and then they've been they were dreadful this year second base year before fourth or fifth year before that you know the annual examination they failed so to then pin it all on on your finals at the end of so I've failing the whole way through university and then hoping that you you could ace the finals and and that'll be enough when you've forgotten that the course worked on the way is actually really important. The thing I've been chuckling along at is after he said that it's kind of the never get too high never get too low it just took me back to the post-match press conference at Twickenham after England of beaten New Zealand and trying to get Steve Borgwick to say anything kind of that it was a significant day or really positive he was like not going anywhere near it I agree with what you guys have said I feel like the actual contract extension in itself is actually a bit of a storm in a teacup it's like you can see why they've done it they don't necessarily need to it doesn't guarantee that it will stay beyond the world cup but I think the wider point it gets to in terms of how they are if you operate and and people losing patience with this

41:08Borgwick project is for me what it puts a bit of a spotlight on. We'll get onto the red roses probably next but I'll give one of the things that Connor said in that pod was John Mitchell has been hired for two weeks over a four year period really to deliver semi-final final week but they're basing this Borgwick and the England management team model on the red roses model if the red roses had lost that work at final does John Mitchell then coach into that into the six nations that follows and everyone thinks that's okay or does he they have to get rid like what what were the vibes around the red roses. I imagine it would have been quite similar to the previous World Cup where Simon Milton saw into the next six nations and then it moved into John Mitchell because obviously the red roses went into the 2022 World Cup expecting to win that one as well and they're now a 39 game winning streak which is tremendous but that shows that it's a very different landscape women's in Zasher rugby to men's in Zasher rugby the the red roses going to every game just fully anticipating that they will win and the one game that they hadn't won was the

42:08only one that mattered and John Mitchell got them into a place were they were able to you know they're able to turn upon the big occasion and on the small occasion as was last weekend you know it's slightly smaller occasion the a World Cup final but certainly I get the sense that in the and even in the the most recent John Mitchell contract negotiation it was an RFU deal rather than sort of red roses head coach deal so there was a bit of wiggle room there as well and we thought that might have been a you know a planning for the future where someone like Emily Scarrett or Sarah Hunter would be maybe phased into that that role behind this super coach figure of John Mitchell but no fundamentally yes it was all about winning that game and if you'd lost then I don't think it's still be the head coach now well good segue there Alex let's get on to the red roses let's finish off because if the England men's team are inconsistent and there's question marks all over the place the red roses on the machine that just keep on winning red roses 48 Australia 15 I think the thing that probably had a few people Elgan raising their eyebrows was half time Australia led here 10 to 5 really strong second half from England which we see them do all the time John

43:10Mitchell after it's actually said it's an absolute joke to be worried about that because they scored 43 points in the second half he's right isn't he I mean we can try and create a narrative of all it was close at half time but once again the red roses do what the red roses always do yeah the the stat that people started talking about was that it was the first time the red roses has been behind at half time since November 2020 which I elected not to use out of taste because they'd actually lost a game in 2022 which is worse than being behind up to half time and they were behind at the hour mark against Canada in 2024 so out of taste I chose not to not to include that statistic but yes that that that shows how rare it is for them to ever be behind but you know that when they take off they're starting front rows they just bring on the second best or perhaps the best front row in the world so there's just no letter whenever they're playing you know we've seen them struggle in the opening half before they've done it both last two times they're playing in Ireland in Ireland and at Twickenham in the first game back after the World Cup we've seen them struggling

44:11until Australia before in Brighton during the last in the World Cup as well just gone last year because a team like the Walla Rooz and John Mitchell has said this before they can start well and they could put you under trouble but you just know that the red roses are an 18-minute team so they've got through another I mean I'm not even going to call it an armistice really because it was always going to be viewed as a as a warm-up game really they they struggled then they showed how good they are and now we get into the real stuff so well on that then it was interesting to me that John Mitchell also described it as their first preseason game which I get the PWR don't start until was it November or end of October whatever it is so in a sense it is I mean is that fair is it a bit of a bad reflection on this whole new WXV format when you've got the England head coach basically saying like oh yeah that's just a preseason for playing Canada and the Blackburns yeah I think the red roses are viewing this as a three-test series against Canada one at Sandy Park and then two in Canada that is the rugby rematch tour as they branded it after the World Cup final and John Mitchell has said more than once in interviews in recent weeks that you know he's

45:14likening it to what we've just seen with New Zealand and South Africa so he's not hidden away from the fact that that is sort of their main focus New Zealand the Blackburns at Twickenham is obviously a huge occasion as well there's going to be more than 50,000 people at that game we've just seen New Zealand win in Leon against France which is quite encouraging for what they can do because I think after winning the World Cup at Eden Park that was sort of a cool few we won the World Cup now let's go back to just sort of you know not to be too crude but it feels like they're really good rugby players and they just meet up in the car park whereas England are just this relentless juggernaut and then we're talking about America that game at the very end in New Jersey against USA that will have some significance as well just because of all the things we've been talking about about trying to spread interest and I think there is a more scope for growth within women's rugby in USA not in the amount of money that's involved but just in the sense of how much the sport within the USA can actually grow not just alone in Mar and Sevens but the fact that there isn't you know a women's

46:19NFL to compete with in the same way so when you look at all those six pictures as a whole I think it's I don't think it's a disrespect to the Waller who's to show that that first step was did you know did feel like the curtain razor in a bit of a bow the cobwebs away before you know tougher tests awaits to use Pud and the tree jargon and you haven't seen too much from the Red Rose is then to be too concerned about how they're going to look when it comes to this bigger test matches against the Black Furns and Canada I mean Canada have the ability to beat them and the Black Furns historically also do so you are staring at a team that's won 39 games in the row it's a full-zare and to try and predict when they will lose but those four games are opportunities where they could like those are the biggest opportunities that they could lose so if they're not going to lose in any of those four then the winning run will surely go above 50 and who knows where it'll go it's got to come to an end at some point that's what I said about England's trip to Italy and Rome and six nations Alex I did well let's not ignore it it came right this year okay I was right this year Gents we will leave it there thank you very much for all of you that have been listening those

47:20of you that have been watching on the time sport youtube page just a final reminder for the fifth of November an evening of Lewis Moody Alex is going to be chatting to the England legend about his diagnosis for MND and and all the highs and lows of his career you can go to the Times.com forward slash events to get your ticket for that Alex Charlie Elgin pleasure as always be back with you all next week this has been the Ruck the journalist rugby podcast from the Times and Sunday Times during lows pro savings days my lows pro rewards members can save up to 20% when they buy more job site materials save 20% when you buy 30 or more select bats and rolls of fiberglass insulation 24 more cartons or pales of joint compound tape and bead or when you spend $200 or more on free and painting and job site essentials members give more it lows value to 195 while supplies last selection various by location program subject to terms and conditions see lows.com slash terms details subject to change just two wheels two pedals and you at bikes online we share your passion

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