057 Problem of Lacking Trust

0:00Welcome back to the Bitcoin Reformation podcast where we are three. But again, two pastors this today to talk about our love for Jesus and yes, Bitcoin to Ben is in the air somewhere doing the great things that he does in the gift of ministry, the gift of leadership that God has given to him. So we'll see him hopefully sometime soon in the future. David, I don't know when that day will be there. Yeah. But that day is not today as the silo TV show might tell us, which Emily, now I just love watching. So is what means of update from our end. I mean, things are just kind of chugging along here. We're looking forward now to my first, our first nephew being born at the end of this month of September. And so that will be a trip to Pennsylvania in October for baptism and stuff like that. So a lot of forward looking stuff, but just enjoying the moments of like positive kid interactions, you know, because there are a lot of not positive interactions too

1:04with three ones and a one year old is who is now, you know, understanding that he has preferences and desires and he can scream and yell at just as loud as his brother and sister can. So it was just this morning actually where Zoe was on the swing in our backyard and Judah wanted to like push her and so little Judah is like trying to push Zoe in the swing and she just turns on goes, Oh, Judah, you're so cute. And then proceeds to play with them. That makes your heart just overflow with love as the scripture say, right? It's beautiful when brothers and sisters dwell in unity. And so just those those small little moments of interacting that way that are are so enjoyable. But I look at that as just kind of life. We finally have gotten cooler weather here in the Valley and it's not oppressive as much. You know, the days of 110 are gone, although yesterday was 106 still.

2:04We're seeing the end. It's coming. Maybe. That's a that's kind of all that's all that's got is going on over here. I mean, there's nothing really crazy else else to share. So how about you, David? Yeah, things are just humming along. I had a birthday at the first part of this week, 49 years old, Jared. I remember struggling. You don't look at day over 30, David. Yeah, I remember struggling like like 3839 thinking of 40. And then I got to 40. I was like, this is all right. And then I've loved my 40s. And now I'm in this pageant all over again of like 49 and oh, no, 50. But I'll say this if the next decade is as rich with blessings and certainly it would be because God is gracious and they're all around us. The probably the difficulty is not the number of blessings in my life, but my eyes to see them and my heart to acknowledge them. So my 50s, you know, would the quarter Jared will be just as wonderful.

3:07Maybe more, maybe in my 50s. That's what I need to look forward to. There's a, there's a, I think a great chance that in my 50s is when grandchildren will enter my life. And that absolutely thrills me. So anyways, there's a lot about this world that does not thrill me. But it's good to kind of get small and get back to kind of first principles of life and living and say, you know, well, I think of the, of the, the him stands in the cross of Christ, like glory, standing or the wrecks of time. So there have been many wrecks of time in my 40s. There might well be in my 50s, but the cross of Christ will be there. His death, his resurrection, a faithful Lord and Savior. So I'm looking forward to that. Let's see the first born child who's been off to Michigan working all summer will be home next Monday night. So I go to pick him up from the airport. Work's excited to have him home, seeing a real shift from,

4:12he'll always be our child, but child and student to adult. And we've always loved him. And we really like him these days. I may have said that on the show before. It's just he's, he's a joy to be around. And though he does not have work fully lined up yet. Boy, it's coming. I'm really not worried about him. He's a, he, he does not sit still. And he's got several leads. So looking forward to seeing that this Sunday at our little mountain church shepherd in the pines. Lutheran church here in Big Bear, California. I'm preaching this Sunday and we have a baptism. And we were just talking about that. Even though like a good Sunday in our church is pushing 50 or maybe you will tip over 50 pound for pound. We are possibly in terms of demographics, ages and like pound for pound. We might be the envy of the Lutheran church Missouri Synod in terms of the number of kids like 10 and younger at our church. Due to a couple families, but then through the homeschool co-op, we have a new family attending with two kids.

5:18We have another local mom and wife attending. And we're looking at a baptism for, for their little one. So it's pretty exciting time at church as well. We will give thanks. That's what's happening. It's been a little cooler up here too, Jared. Although even our hot was probably cool compared to your hot, but I'm welcoming it. Also, you're beginning to feel the first parts of a fall on the air. And so I look forward to that. Well, there you go. So so much to celebrate with the bringing on of the not oppressive heat. So it's like the first, the first year. I mean, last summer wasn't really that bad. And this summer was just one of those like, all right. I get it when everyone says, don't worry. You'll learn to resent the summer here. I already feel like I am resenting. And we'll say it this way. Help us lead into I now trust what those people have said. It's got to be just the inverse of a bad Midwest winter, right?

6:22Yeah. You know, both drive you inside and drive you nuts at times. So there you go. Well, here we are. That is the topic of the day. You've introduced a Jared trust. It's a topic that has intrigued me, particularly as a pastor, a Christian man through, through time, well prior to any contemplations of money and Bitcoin. But I think at the tail end of this conversation, we will come back to those two. But we're actually want to just consider this. It's a high view. This is no dissertation. One could go much deeper. But we want to consider a somewhat kind of high view, which is to say from like 30,000 feet, that sort of view of the biblical landscape. What is mentioned there, concerning trust, all right? And it's basically this, the biblical call is to trust in God.

7:24It is a call you can even think of it as a command. But it is most certainly not a naked call or a naked command. It is it. Usher's forth from our God to us that we trust in him. For instance, Proverbs three, five, trust in the Lord with all your heart. Or God is the true refuge from the Psalms. And we can think of instance after instance. Yeah, or the inverse of it Jeremiah 17, cursed is the one who trusts and mere humans, right? Blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord, right? So that that presents now a dichotomy, a division of where we place our trust, but the call is to trust in God. It's never though again a naked trust. Why? Because this is a God always with a track record. He is the God of creation. In fact, in an enduring way, the Old Testament in particular, but then again in the New Testament in Romans, it comes to mind, the creation itself is personified as praising and giving glory.

8:30To its creator or in the New Testament as yearning and awaiting his second coming, that even all of creation will be redeemed. And it's both kind of a remaking of creation, but also at times looked at as a destruction and recreat, full recreation of creation itself. But the new age to come will be just as tangible and concrete as this creation and hopefully even more. See, it's Lewis does some fun work with that. Where he paints a picture in the great divorce of somebody walking on grass in the new creation. And the grass is now so real and so vibrant that even though it's soft, even in its softness, it hurts one's feet walking across it barefoot or at least initially, because it's just so much sensation there. But nevertheless, God has this track record. He is the God of creation, creation praises him creation, creation, yearns for his continued and further and final work.

9:31All of that is true. But we go beyond that in the Old Testament. Really, it's with the book of Exodus that we are introduced to the idea of redemption, buying back at a cost that which we once owned. And so we have a God who is the God of redemption. And so even we can think of that in Exodus 20, Jared and audience. When the Ten Commandments are enumerated first, we get the historic prologue. I, the Lord, your God, who saved you out of Egypt by my mighty right arm. So I am the God of salvation. I'm not, I, I made you, I rescued you. And I'll tell you, Jared, if I'm well aware of who my maker is. And if I have been rescued, a deep rescue out of death itself, certain death by my rescuer, whether I knew this person a long time or a short time, this person instantly has my trust.

10:32Right. So we are called throughout the Old Testament to trust in God. It doesn't start with that bear command, that bear knuckled command. Rather, it starts with God's gracious activity over and over and over again. However, in the face of that gracious activity of God over and over and over again, I am a frail and weak and failing sinful human. My everything that I actually should give to God and ought to give to God, I do not. I constantly forget his goodness, I forget that he's the God of creation and rescue. Or I want to wander far from that moment of rescue, right. And somehow maybe turn God into my tour guide or my travel agent or my genie in a bottle, right. And by the way, for Lutheran worship, it's very common in Lutheran worship to have a confession and absolution each worship service.

11:32I remember I actually had an elder in the second church I served. He'll remain nameless, but he voiced what many people have. Pastor, I feel like we're just constantly flogging ourselves for what once was and maybe we're down plain in the mud because we keep rehearsing the mud. And I'd have to say to him and to that idea, I actually don't think so. I think the bigger danger is in the Old Testament outlines this as well, our forgetfulness that we forget the Lord and all his activity, all his benefits and names it as that he's the God of creation, he's the God of rescue and redemption and salvation. And he leads us for we forget all these things. It's when I wonder from his activities that I want to recreate him in some other image of my of my own making. So the Old Testament does cost a trust in God, but this is a God with a track record. And I'm going to stop there, Jared and let you jump in anything you have comes to mind.

12:33So you use the phrase naked trust or naked command. So can you tell people, what do you mean by that when you say, Hey, God doesn't just ask us to trust him, like explain that a little bit more. Yeah, but it's not just a, I think this does fit kind of normal language, kind of a naked decree or that it's in the dark, that it's just a booming voice from a cold God. This is no cold God. This is the God of creation who before sin entered in was walking in the garden with Adam and Eve, you know, there was no division between them. There was no hiding. This is a God who is with his people. And so that's, that's what I mean by it's, it's not naked. He is, he's clothed in our site by his work and his words, his actions in the past and his promise action. That continues today for today and in the time to come.

13:34He has to use a phrase that we've already used in this discussion, he has a track record. And if we will, but open our eyes and humble ourselves, we will see it all around. Does that answer that or would you have a different answer? Well, I think the, because what, what I think I hear undergirding that is like this, ask or a really big request of put your trust in me, but God doesn't do that without having some sort of relationship, call it some sort of previous action to warrant or justify your trust. Yep. And so it's the difference between you meet someone on the street and they ask you, hey, do you trust me? You're probably not going to have a lot of trust, perhaps in that person. Maybe if you're a person of high trust, you might, but likely you're going to be suspicious.

14:37And so God doesn't come to us and say, hey, I need you to trust me. And then kind of just walk away. God proves himself over and over through the scriptures. So funny. We didn't talk about it, but that's exactly where I was going to go with Exodus too, that, you know, God, God gives the commandments the things that he wants his people to do, but he only does it after first explaining what he's done already for them or reminding the people of what he's done for them. And then saying, hey, do these things. And so when you think about Luther and his, you know, small catacism, every commandment's explanation to the answer, what does this mean? It starts with, well, we should fear, love and trust in God above all things. So that we fill in the blank. And all of that is rooted in God's action first and foremost for you for me.

15:44And so there's really weird, not weird, maybe, but when I teach a new member class, perhaps not, I think it makes sense, but I think in our world today, most people don't have that basic understanding of what God has already done. And so well, Luther organizes the catacism to first bring about recognition of sin, right, with the 10 commandments, and then going to who's the one who's going to save us. I like to teach first, well, we say we believe in God. Well, who is God? Like we have to know who our God is first. And then we can ask the question, well, what does God require of us? Because so, so many people don't have that, like in bread, I already know a little bit about Jesus. And so then I can immediately be told, well, God says, this is a sin. God said, this is not how you're supposed to be. And so instead we start answering the question, well, who do I actually believe in?

16:46What God do I actually worship? And out of that then comes the questions about, okay, now that this is God, I see he's the creator. I see he's the one who's redeemed me. I see he's the one who sanctifies me by his Holy Spirit. Now I can know that I can fear, love, and trust. And so what does it mean that then I follow and live according to these 10 commandments? So I just really want to push down hard on the idea that God, God is the first mover. And trust and even though I think it's also important to say, God could fully demand our trust without having proven himself. God, God, it being creator, overall things, you know, omniscient omnipres, all that stuff. God has every right to say, you trust me and I don't need to prove it because I'm God and you're not. But that's not the kind of God that we have.

17:48And so God could do that, but he's chosen to operate in other ways. So just a beautiful example, I think of the graciousness of God, the love of God and how he's also chosen to, like you've used the word already to do the track record to prove himself worthy of our trust. So that in those moments when things happen, and we are called to trust. I just had the conversation this week. It's weird death happens in three. I don't know if that was a thing for you in your church. We've had our two and now we're waiting for whoever the third person is, but this week I had the conversation with someone unrelated, but a similar thing like we sometimes feel like we have the ability to trust like the option. And then oftentimes God brings us to a place in life where we are much forced to trust that we realize the reality that we aren't in control, that we cannot make the bag things right, that we cannot fix the problems.

18:52And so there is no other option left in our lives, but to trust. And in those moments, we want we need a God and a person to trust that we know has a good track record. That isn't going to fail us. That is going to be faithful to do the things you said to keep his promises to us. Yeah. Well, let me use an example that's now long outdated in my first call and a little bit of my second call. I would use it in confirmation class and with adults. And that's that it was August 25th, 20, sorry, 2005. That was hurricane Katrina. And you would remember that then you would have been a little bit older, maybe like eighth, ninth grade there, right? Yeah. Based on our conversation earlier. But hurricane Katrina, I would say this, can you imagine somebody walking in the lower ninth ward and it's the 24th of August, right? And somebody comes along and says, sit down and don't move until I tell you to move.

19:57What would that person say to somebody saying this to them? They might have a lot of choice words that they said, right? Yeah, but they're just not going to do it. I wouldn't do it. I'm not even that agreeable to have somebody who I don't know. Sorry, never met you. Don't know you. Who do you think you are? And it'd probably be choice words in that. Who the hell do you think you are? Right? Now, suddenly on the 25th, one of the great enduring images of hurricane Katrina was the national guard. I'm sorry, the US Coast Guard helicopters hovering over roofs, plucking people up off of rooftops. And this is pre-self-own. We have footage of it helicopter to helicopter, but we had relatively a small amount of footage compared to if that would happen today. And so they looped, played these helicopters over and over and over again. And I say, okay, so you get plucked up off the roof. You get brought inside. In this case, it is a crew of four, two pilots and two crew members and back. What do you think happens when you get inside? And they said, well, they probably put you in a seat on buckle you from the one harness, but buckle you in.

21:04And I said, yeah, do they say any words to you? Let's just imagine this. And we'd always get to the point. They probably say, I'm buckling you in. Don't touch that until we land. You know, don't move. And what do people say to that? They don't say, who the hell do you think you are anymore? They say, you got it. And think, yes, sir. Right? In fact, they give a secular answer that we have a one word, we have a single word for in the church. That single word in the church is amen. Let it be to me as you have said, right? But they literally say amen. Why? Because even though they were just given direction, this direction is in light of the rescue that just took place. Right? And suddenly this person who had been a stranger prior now has their full trust. Right? They're full trust because they wanted to rescue me and they don't want to rescue me so that I can just get up and now fall out the other side of the helicopter or hurt myself or harm others. And in light of that rescue, I say amen to the things they have to say to me.

22:07So yes, in the Old Testament, we're called the trust in God, but it's not a naked cult trust. This is a God of action with a track record, a God of creation, a God of redemption, a God who leads his people in green pastures. Psalm 23, right? So all of this, the weakness in that cult of trust is not in God or his call, but is in me. I'm the weak part of that equation. I am always wanting to put my trust elsewhere or make other things that might get like small tea trust, make them ultimate things that I trust. And that's back to your language with Luther and the small catechism. We should fear love and trust in God above all these other things. Luther doesn't squash, you know, squash the category of trust with other individuals or entities, but, but God is here. Others are down below. So yes, that is the Old Testament call to trust in God.

23:09But again, then the inverse of this do not put your trust in princes or in horses. So in other words, trust in God and hey, you people, quick to make idols out of so many things. Stop turning those into your idols of ultimate trust. Well, at the same time, we can ask this question, but, but what is our relationship to government? You know, what, if it's not to trust them, what are we to do? It's interesting. There's not really any biblical language that I know of that calls us to trust in government. There is this language, which seems as strong, maybe stronger. I don't know, but we're called to obey, however, the authorities not trust them, but to obey them. Meanwhile, what is it that the authorities are supposed to do? Well, I don't know. Jared, let's actually make a little bit of a list now. What do we, what do we look to the government to do? We generally people us, including, oh, God, you're not just according to scripture.

24:09No, just awesome general. Yeah, what do we look to the government for? I mean, I would say in our world today, some sort of social welfare programs, right? So Medicare, Medicaid, we look for them for protection. So you think about our military, that sort of thing. I do think we would look to them for legislation around our all of our various interest points. So it doesn't matter who you are, what you believe you want them to be creating laws and rules that govern the land and your favor for your benefit, for the things that you were passionate about. And then maybe just like make my life better and not worse. Let's say it that way. They would have our interest in mine, however, that might be. I don't know. What else would you say? Well, we looked at them for roads, right? If that's true. So I'm so far down that road. I'm so far down that road of looking to them for roads that I'm like, I'm sort of this person.

25:10But if the government didn't make roads, whether that's county, state, or federal, because they're all have their hand in it, who would make the roads, Jared? Like, who would make the roads? I'm like, so I've so vested that that that's what the government does. And apparently we won't have any roads without them. That, I mean, I've fallen into that. So we looked at them for roads. Yeah, back to, I think you've named it. And at the same time, our listeners could regale for us probably a longer list still. But bottom line, we actually looked to our government for a lot. Or we could run it that other way. If the government didn't do X, Y, and Z. Well, who would do it, Jared? Who would do it? You know, and that's why I'm in the list. We would say there are probably, because you think about all the various sort of like subsidies that government offered. Yeah, I was thinking that too. Yep. For farming, for food, for, I mean, all of it.

26:12Like, there are probably more things I am looking to them to do that I don't even realize or I'm not even aware of. You know, you also think about like secret military projects, you know, or like how they're affecting the technology changes. I mean, if there's just so many things that space exploration, you know, yeah, like the invisible hand, if you want to use that language of government is probably in more places than you even think or want to think about. And so we're looking to them, whether we are intentionally looking to them or not as well. I remember the summer of 2018, we camped all the way out to California as a family. I never thought we'd live here. We live here now, but I couldn't believe the, in California life, now I'm kind of used to it and it doesn't shock me anymore. The number of warnings on different products that it may be cancer causing. So like literally we stop by the gas station in Yosemite National Park, pick up some,

27:13a bundle of campfire wood and there is a yellow warning label attached to the top of the firewood warning that this is carcinogenic, you know. Sure. Good golly. So yeah, we have invited the government in the many places and they have boldly continued to go even further to where the government's hand, and I think you said that well, it's just in so many places in life. In fact, it's in more places than we've kind of cared to number before or consider. And the role of government is pretty large. What's the biblical call for a government to do? It's pretty, it's a, it's a much smaller list. How about that? It was probably never just the two things because there's things that come with these two things, but the biblical call, and now I'm looking to Romans 13 at 1 Peter 2, is that the government's supposed to wield the sword to punish the wrongdoer. That's the first thing. And then second of all, to commend or praise the one who does right.

28:17Right? Yeah. First Peter 2 authorities are set to punish those who do evil and praise those who do good. And then again, in Romans 13, another iteration of the same. That's how much smaller list really that sees government as doing that. We are just, you know, we live in the world where the government's gotten much larger than that. All right, having said all that, what do we, what do we do with that? Well, I would say this Jared, I think what's probably happened across time, and it's not just in the United States and it's in much of the world, is that we've slowly entrusted, so the act of giving trust over, we've entrusted more and more to the government. But then the setting that happens is the government becomes some sort of Leviathan that now demands more and more, you know, and you start to get to moments where it's like

29:20just trust us. Let me say this in a different way. I'll go back to your small catechism, which you referenced, fourth commandment, so as you shall honor, father, and mother, that it may go well with you and you may live long on the earth. And we often, and Luther does this as well, by extension, we should honor all authorities, you know. But in, uh, nest again, in furties, like late 70s, early 80s, uh, book on the small catechism, I've got it somewhere here to my right. Actually, I've got many copies spread throughout, I'm just not seeing one right now. It's called free to be. They stretch out that fourth commandment and they really lean in on father and mother and the family as being, um, central to all of life. Like this is the greatest government in all the world is, is husband and wife, mother and father and children. They, they literally lift that up and they do that. They're in good company because Luther himself does that, in the catechism and the large catechism in particular, he really lifts that up. But then,

30:22and that's again, inferred to go on to say, and, and God has given mom and dad little helpers. And I would also do this with catechism classes, with confirmation classes. Who are mom and dad's little helpers? And inevitably some begrudging kid would be like, I know it's us. I need to take the trash out on Mondays and I need to pick up the dog poop on Saturdays. And I'm like, well, that's true, that's true. But that's not what they say here. You know who got mom and dad's little helpers are from God's point of view. Mom and dad's little helpers go by titles like mayor and governor and president. Those are the ones meant to be mom and dad's little helpers. So in, in, in a theological world, we see the family as the pinnacle of all things, you know, and churches serve families with the good news of God and Christ Jesus our Lord. But in our lived out daily world, we think of being like grist at the bottom of the mill and the governments at the top. And that's where the

31:26really important stuff happens. So not only was it, was it common of God's people in the Old Testament to make idols out of smaller things and make them, you know, eternal things, but it seems that we're pretty good at doing that still to this dayjared that we entrust to the government things that don't belong to them and that the government then grows on that and then demands things of us that it's also not called to be able to demand. Well, and I think there's a curious what you think about this. So the language of them doing things that they're not necessarily called to in scripture is one thing. But when we think about the language of trust, I feel like I could say, hey, you know, I, I think it's probably good that the government is involved in some sort of regulating of the food industry and how food is made, right? Like it's probably a good thing that they're involved in, you know,

32:26making sure that children are not being forced to do labor, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Like there's there is good beneficial things in the government's involvement that way. So I'm not, I don't think I all government is bad person. But I think the problem comes when that trust becomes either broken, disillusioned or hard to believe is genuinely possible, right? So, you know, you can trust that they do this until they don't. And then now my trust has been broken and it's going to be harder for me to trust them again. And so it's almost like, hey, I'm fine with you doing whatever you want. But the moment that I feel like I can't trust you, then creates a, well, now I don't want you to do this type thing. Like, yeah, now I do want you to back out of this corner or that area because I can't trust

33:31you and I don't trust you. And so when you say to trust me, then I can. And so I feel like there's a small nuance there. I don't know. What do you think about that? Did you hear that? That they can lose trust? Well, just like the idea, because I mean, I think there's, there's like a line of thread that like some, some big corners are relatable as libertarian people that we want no government involvement in like anything, right? I mean, that's a very, I would take extreme end. But that it's not necessarily their involvement that we're we're tapping into, but more the fact that like we can't, we can't trust them, right? It's our low view of humanity. Yeah. Yeah. So whereas God is, God is perfect. God has always kept his word. God has always done exactly what he said when sinful, broken people like you and me say, oh, yeah, I promise. I won't do this or I promise we were doing this for this reason in this reason only. We can't trust

34:35them. And so it's not necessarily the involvement or where the the government is involved, but it's the hey, it's sinful, broken people who are not trustable. That then creates the problems we have with hey, well, you know, the Bible only talks about punishing good and rewarding those who do good, tight punishing evil, sorry, and rewarding those who do good. And so you shouldn't be involved anything else. And what I'm saying is I think the problem more is like, we can't trust people. And so when they say they want to have control or oversight over something, well, I don't like that because I don't know if I can trust you to do that well or trust that you're going to be honest with me in return. And so it creates this sort of well, then because I can't trust you, then I actually don't want you to be here. I want you to leave me alone. And I want you to go, you know, do I feel that very things you should do. I feel that way very strongly here in the state of California. You know, people say to me, what's it like to live in California? And for years,

35:35I was able to say, well, I still don't know what it's like to live in California. I have a decent handle of what it's like to live in Big Bear, what it's like to live here. But I have gotten to know what it's like to live in California. And I do want Sacramento to just go away largely. I say that. I don't probably fully mean that Jared, but I want them to stop passing just ass-in-nine things. I mean, because of things that have happened in, for instance, in Sacramento, I've had to go, I've had to, I've chosen to go speak to our local school board. There's at least one occasion, it might have been two, but I can think of the one occasion. I want to go speak with them on something. And they're not allowed to respond to me, but after the fact they can talk amongst each other inside sort of pseudo publicly to me, including me in that. I made them aware of something they weren't even aware of yet, but had absolutely big implications, you know, local implications. So, yeah, I really wish the government would kind of go away. People complain about an inefficient government. I think that's a feature of our

36:36founding fathers and not a bug, you know, that when, hey, at least here in the United States, when we make mistakes, we make them slowly, right? Due to inefficiency, hopefully few of them and inefficiently. But I'll notice this like, yeah, and then you can throw in other things, Jared, from, you mentioned, I think nutrition, I can think of margarine. You know, there was a time when butter was decried as unhealthy and margarine was good. That was settled science, Jared, and now the science is swung around, you know? So, it's hard when so much is demanded because they're authorities. Is demanded because they're authorities and they know better than us. Sort of the way in which government grows large, they sort of, I think this is a fancy word, but it fits in, fatalize the citizens. We, yeah, we'll be heavy-handed because we have to do it for your care. You're not to be trusted ever, ever, ever with your own care. And that's a hard one because on the one time, on one hand, sometimes we do need saved from ourselves,

37:39theologically, we know that to be true. Absolutely true. On the other hand, we know that when you constantly save people from themselves, particularly in the horizontal plane, they will never grow up, right? They will never grow up. And so, you know, I wonder how much we've handed over to the government and how that's affected us, you know, whether we sort of ever, ever grow up. Well, I would say this thing before we run. Yeah, because I think this idea of trust and largely speaking, the lack of trust that people have, you know, extends more beyond government to, you know, you think about people's trust in just institutions in general. Yes, yes. You know, whether it's churches, nonprofits, you know, businesses, corporations, you know, it's so funny the other day, I don't know what we were talking about, how we got talking. I just said, hey, I would never have an Amazon Alexa in my house because I don't want, you know, Amazon

38:45listening to everything that's happening in my home. I don't trust them. And the person said, but you trust Apple. And I said, well, at least they're, they say that there's privacy, you know, at least they're willing to claim that there's some semblance of privacy. And just that idea of like, we've come to a point where we just say, hey, you know, I just trust that they're actually probably lying to me. Like, that's the, that's a place that we've reached in the amount of, I think, problems that creates, you know, for life together, right? And I don't mean that in the spiritual sense of the word, but more in the sense of like, hey, as a society, because we begin in a place of lack of trust. And perhaps rightly so, right? Again, we're the sinful broken people. But at the same time, if there is absolutely no trust, then that creates a huge barrier for relationship. It creates a huge barrier for that collective we, whatever that mysterious thing is.

39:53And then it's so much harder to engage in those things in those moments because we all think everyone is out for their own good. And the other person is the evil one, etc, etc. And so it's just not just government when we're talking about this, but I would say the lack of trust extends really throughout all of society. And I'm sure people have said this before and I'm sure everyone has felt like, oh, it's always been worse, you know, no one trusts each other now and etc, etc. But it seems to be a common thing that I think I see in my life and around me as well. Thank you for bringing that up. I mean, that it all causes me to think a lot of things. You know, the person with the low view of government makes me think of Ron Swanson from the office. I'm not the office from Parks and Rec. If you watch Parks and Rec, it's absolutely great. You laugh at him, but you're also like, yeah, maybe he's right. You have this sneak and suspicion, you know, maybe he's

40:54right. You made me think of the Robert Potnum's book from 2000, which seems ancient now 26 years old, bowling alone, the collapse and revival of American community. He was tracing that. I would say this, but I would say this, it does seem that there's a lack of trust in a lot of institutions. You're right that trust across our culture is on decline, you know. And I wonder Jared, if that's because in some ways we got really top heavy in, you know, kind of exporting, like, and trusting to use that word again, and trusting things to others that really weren't meant to be entrusted out, that we were meant to be the stewards and caretakers of those things, or at least, you know, continually be vigilant about those things. And then some of those large institutions got really big and two top heavy and have eroded at a minimum and sometimes,

42:00you know, fully collapse or toppled over. And I'll risk being a slightly too political here. I just look at what's happened then in just through COVID, which went through all kinds of administrations, multiple administrations on both sides of the aisle. There's a real lack of trust. And a lot of like, I can't go back to 2001, 2002. If I get to really thinking about it, Jared, I get really upset all over again. Like, I've walked beyond that in my day to day life, but I get upset thinking about it. So all of that leads us to trust or to a lack of trust. I will say this, maybe that's going to be a great time though for smaller institutions. And maybe that's how I think, that'd be my thesis, that that's where trust grows again, where real people look other real people in the eyes and take care of them and live out their vocations. And so that's again, husband and

43:04wife, mother and father and children and neighbors. I think of the most one of the most devilish things probably ever told to me as a child. Yeah, I'd say how many kind of the biblical question, who's my neighbor? And we respond to the modern child, you have eight billion of them. I'd contend to you, that's a devilish thing to say to a child as if we're responsible for all eight billion of them. You know, there was a time, but 150 years ago, or probably nobody at any given time had a really good clue as to how many people were on earth. And when you didn't have a good clue of that, and you'd say, who's your neighbor, you're probably much more likely to point, I don't know, to the folks down the road, you know, the Ingalls and the Roths and the, you know, everybody else. So all of that is going on. You're right. A real erosion of trust. Well, in all of that, let's talk about money. Let's take that turn. Prior to 1971, prior to 1971, and I wish I had

44:13one of these. I wonder if I could get one from a collector sometime. I have a picture up here before my eyes, at least right now, of a $20 bill, just as an example. So this is a $20 bill, this particular one actually is back from the 30s. But here's what, here's what the $20 bill used to say. You ready for this Jared and crew? It says redeemable and gold on demand at the United States Treasury, or in gold or lawful money at any federal reserve bank. I want to know what that was like. Like what? Yes. Like a window like the title said like a cash to gold exchange or something like that. Like right. What on earth? Right. So your $20 bill was a fixed coupon for a fixed amount of gold. That gold, I suppose it could have been stolen, Jared, and gold has been stolen through times. But it could never be fudged. Somebody at some point had to go through the hard

45:18work. Well, it wasn't always as hard. Apparently, when you got to California here at first and people walked around, they're like, oh my goodness. It's just, it's just laying around in the bottom of streams, you know, under six inches of water. Let's just pick it up. But after that initial moment, that initial work, although even those people had probably walked what, you know, 1,000 or 1,500 miles from home, Jared, right? So a type of work. Even once California was settled, now the gold was harder to find. But they had to apply work to honestly come by that gold. It was, or how about this? When the gold came into circulation, it was through somebody's honest effort at least, right? And so the idea of having a, you know, a coupon for actual value, you know, actual expenditure of effort and talent and time agrees with me at least. I think it agrees with you too. So I'm not suggesting that there's distance between us and that. But now what do we have? Not, not what do we have? Well, starting with Eisenhower, we threw it also on the bills and God, we trust. I think

46:22it was Eisenhower. But then our treasury notes say something like, well, first of all, now, you will not find anywhere on your bills that it's redeemable for gold. It is not redeemable. It'll say it's legal tender. It's legal currency. It does say that. And as you go up to US Treasuries, which are a type of the dollar, right? Or dollar instrument issued by the US government. That's where they are really honest then about their language. They say, this is backed with several of the treasuries or types of treasuries. This is backed by the full faith and credit of the US government. So when I say to you full faith and credit of the US government, Jared, what does that sound like to you? Sounds like trust me, bro. I agree with you. I agree with you. Faith is even more of a new testament word than an Old Testament word. It is there in the Old Testament. But faith also from the Greek Pistis is wrapped up. Part of its meaning is trust. And again, this trust that is born

47:30of somebody else's care for you already, not sort of blind trust or blind faith. But yeah, so it says say the full faith, the full trust and credit of the United States government. And you know, that's what's backing our money these days is trust in the government. That is my currency. What little of it I have is five and ten dollar bills and twenty dollar bills and what little I have in the bank account. All of that rests on the government's currency, which is trust. And that's not always been that way. How about that? Maybe that's the most maybe that's the fairest statement we can make with the least amount of editorializing that it hasn't always been this way, right? Or that it doesn't have to. There you go, Chair. That way. Yeah, I mean, you've spent it both ways. And you know, I think the

48:32place where a lot of people would run right now would be to, you know, doom and gloom about that. But it's more of the, hey, the idea of having to trust someone with, as we talk about all the time, with the money printer button, et cetera, et cetera, is not how things have to be. And that it's the thing you're fond of saying, like, we need to think about the system and the structures that we actually reside in. Like, we need to not assume that the way it is is how it is meant to be and how it has to be forever. And that we should actually ask the question, is this good? Like, is this the best thing possible? And obviously, we're here because we think that there's a better answer, there's a better solution in what Bitcoin is and can be for the world. So I just think that's an important place to run to. Doesn't have to be this way.

49:36By the way, it was Roosevelt, not Eisenhower. I got that wrong. Don't trust me. Verify. All right. But yeah, I just so agree with you. A couple of things. I think, well, I hope we have some hearers that you may be are sympathetic to everything. We'd love to hear from you say, you've brought me along, or I've been at this place of conviction that I found you and I'm enjoying the theological angle, particularly as Lutherans in this case. But it could also be somebody a little bit more skeptical than that or not as far along in the journey, Jared. Here's what I do think is the case is that the effects of inflation are being felt by most every American. And as I think across the people I know in life, I only know maybe a handful or a dozen people who are, you know, kind of quote unquote rich enough, Jared, to where what's happening economically in the US and the world right now is kind of doesn't touch them. I do know,

50:40a few people like that, right? But vast majority of people I know are being affected by this. I like Jack Mallorz recently pointed out he says we often ask, you know, well, how much is inflation? And he says, you can ask that and somebody will give you an answer, but please understand, there is no fixed rate of inflation. It depends on you and your family. What things are you in the market for? Whether they're wants or needs? Each little thing has been distorted by inflation at, you know, in spurts and fits or at a steady rate. But there is no fixed rate of inflation in fact. But across the board, I think people can say, oh, I've felt inflation and it's hitting hard. And I think I don't love the moment at all, Jared, but I wonder if it opens people up to exactly, I think what you just said is just sort of maybe maybe now an opening up to the idea of, okay, this is how it is now. It's not going so well. Does it have to be this way? Are there in fact alternatives?

51:48And so I would hope at the least that people would be opening up to that idea. But to begin bringing this home, Jared, one of the areas that we've been told that is belongs to the government. And we must, who must trust the government on this is that the government is the issuer of money. Right? By which life and the things in life are valued. This is true in American life. This is true in many parts of the world. This is not universally true throughout the world and is not universally true in history and is not universally true even in American life. That'd be maybe a whole other episode. It really did trace down some of that history of monetary units and who is the issuer in American life. But for most of us, it's been our whole lives. Today was 9-11. The kids at high

52:49school had a remembrance of 9-11. Well, they've never lived a day in their lives where 9-11 had not taken place. They were born. I think our son would be eight years after 9-11 and our daughter nine or ten years. So it has always been the case. It's always been in the water. But it has not always been the case. September 10th, 2001, 9-11 had not happened. And similarly, I don't know, maybe that's a bad frame. But in American life and in world history and in the world all around, it has not always been the case that you just must trust the government as concerns the money supply. So ask questions probe. I would say feel permission to be dissatisfied and gain a curiosity. Is there anything else out there that's better? By the way, Jared, is there anything else out there? Is anybody trying to answer this sticky wicket with the abuse of money and trust in the monetary world?

53:54Do you have any answers to that, Jared? I don't know, David. I've heard about this thing called Bitcoin, but I've heard it's just magic internet money. I'll say this though too. I think it's similar to what we've talked about before that. You know, again, the problem is not per se that the government is issuing or doing the controlling of currency. It's the trust issue of it. So, for example, I would be completely satisfied, I think, mostly if our dollar was backed by gold or Bitcoin that because there would be a constraint on that, then I would be able to trust using that currency more. So again, it's not even the fact that, hey, maybe I don't prefer it. It's more the, well, what is it in how how is trust being forced upon, if you will, the person who is doing the controlling and issuing of it too? And so, you know, it's why like, hey, sure, I would could the government tell us we need to use Bitcoin? Great. Yeah. And I would love that because then it

55:00would enforce a certain level of trust for them on them that then would allow me to use it even though sure they've commanded me to do it. So again, it comes back to that idea of like, what's the problem or what's the issue with it? And it's truly just that I can't trust them because we know what their their track record is the as you've said too, the track record is, hey, just this one time, you know, we're going to we're going to hit the button just this once. Oh, okay, well, now it's another emergency and we need to hit it just one more time. And in the world of Bitcoin, there's no just one more time. There's no one time at all. There there's only those 21 million and there's nothing else you can do to create that, create access of that as well. So to me, I think that's another great, great point to kind of bring us home as well. Right. It, the government has been allowed to act without discipline, without constraints. And without discipline and constraints,

56:05without acknowledging that we are created people in a created world. And there are limits without doing that. That maybe that goes back to our episode on fiat and what that means, you know, but we become monsters of a sort as what way thinking ourselves to be gods and puffing ourselves up as such, we take on really monstrous proportions and not not the proportions of a God who is gracious and merciful. He already exists. He fulfills that job beautifully. All for us through Christ Jesus our Lord. And so it's a it's a gross thing when we try to kind of skip the bounds of our callings and our nature and and take on bigger proportions still. Yeah. So what do we go for here? I suppose wrapping it up. I love just the chance to kind of contemplate trust in the

57:10scriptures that this is not an 11th commandment or even kind of a prologomana first commandment before the first commandment Jared, but rather the God in the Old Testament who calls us to trust in him is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding instead of love. And that comes to us through the gift of his son, his one way rescue of us. And so put not your trust in princes or horses or even in a sense Bitcoin that could that could sound that way I suppose to some people Jared or that it sounds like we're saying don't trust in the dollar, but trust in Bitcoin. The thing we like about Bitcoin is how much human trust has been removed from it, but it is certainly one more piece of technology that could already be distorted and we just don't know how it's been distorted could be distorted possibly in the future. We would want to make the argument

58:13there's many safeguards there. But we've always I think been willing to say this it's the best tool I know to minimize this kind of corruption and money and we would always be open to a better tool coming along still in the future. So that's true, but we would say money is somewhat necessary for a life coordinating life between people and Bitcoin this kind of goes back to the government's cult to be just right and equitable and of all the monies that I know about Bitcoin fits that bill really really well. So it's not about hey I once trusted in the dollar now I trust in Bitcoin you know and it becomes my idol that could certainly happen that should be repented of, but rather for the coordination of human interest in thriving maybe a better money has come along investigate it look at it if you would, but trust not in those kings and princes trust in your God and then live in a way with your neighbors the people you are called to care for that they

59:19in the day of trouble and the day of need and even on a good day would say hey that person's a trustworthy person in my life and would come to you. That's all I've got. I'll say I'll close with this then that the scriptures talk about God proving his love for us that God doesn't just say trust me God doesn't just say I love you and then leave those as you said naked before you but he comes down in the person of Jesus to prove it to demonstrate it to exercise it in action and that is unlike anyone else that has ever existed any go their God any other person that has ever existed God alone is the one who proves his love, who proves his faithfulness to you to the world every single day in and out of good season and bad season as well. So we'll leave that with you before you today. We'd love to hear again like David said from you. So our email is in the description. I now have access to that David

1:00:21and so I am checking that I don't know if literally every day there's some really interesting things Ben shows and not to forward us. I'll talk you that much but we'd love to hear from you and what you think about it if you'd love to be a part of the conversation that way let us know but as we end today we again we love that you're here with us but we love our Lord Jesus most first above all else but yes we do love the thing that the gift if you want to even say it that way that God has given to us in the gift of Bitcoin too for better money for a better world that way we'll catch you on the next one.