A 4-Track Mind

0:00RIDDILAB is supported by AT&T. We all love to connect via video calls or text. Right now at AT&T, you can get the new iPhone 18 Pro for $0 with iPhone Trade-in. Any condition, it has the ultimate Pro camera system and big leap in battery life so you can turn this deal into a long lasting connection. Learn how you can trade in your iPhone for the new iPhone 18 Pro requires Trade-in of iPhone 14 or higher, excluding iPhone 16E, an eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply, subject to change, visit an AT&T store for details. Hey, I'm Molly Webster from Radio Lab and I am in studio today with Anisa Vita,

1:13Rhymes of Pizza. Hi, Molly. Who is our assistant producer, but also a really amazing artist and so we have her do a lot of our cool visuals for the show and Anisa, you're here to talk about this awesome thing you just made for us. What is it? I have been wanting a Radio Lab Fanny Pack slash crossbody bag for probably as long as I've worked here, but everyone hated the idea and then some listeners asked us for it and now all of a sudden everyone's finally ready to do my vision. You're being a big idiot. I will just say I am a good pairing for you on this Fanny Pack promo because I love a Fanny Pack slash crossbody bag. So what does this one look like and how often will I use it? So I wanted to do some drawings that were Radio Lab related. Okay. It's sort of like blue, almost woodblock, print like drawings of a couple recent, my favorite recent episodes. One of them is actually your episode, Molly. I made it, I did not know this, I made it onto the bag.

2:15Yes, you made it onto the bag. Which one? What was it? I feel like grass has become a huge part of our lives here in the office. Now I've learned more about grass than I ever possibly could have imagined and appreciated it more. So I wanted that to make it on the bag and then I've also drawn a bird from Annie's Nigel episode, Nigel the Gannett. I just wanted these two things that have been little joyful Radio Lab stories. I heard you paid extra for an interior pocket. Yes, we did. That was important to me. I can't say that on the radio. If you want to get your hands on this finally, finally, we've got one Fanny Pack, please join the lab, which is our membership program. Membership starts at just $7 a month and it comes with extra perks like sponsor free episodes, bonus content, members only swag this Fanny Pack and lots more. And if you join the lab now and get this cross body bag, then I will be vindicated. And the people really do want a Fanny Pack, but more than that, really what you're doing

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4:17Thank you Anista for making this Fanny Pack. Of course. I can't wait to wear it. And now you get to listen to the show. Hey, Lulu here. Today we are reaching back into the archives for a Radio Lab classic, a really good one, which I can say because I had nothing to do with making it. But it pulls off one of the most difficult and satisfying things a story, really any story and any medium can do, which is that it stretches your conception of what a human being is capable of. And besides just being a jaw dropping portrait of a human with a brain, it also makes you wonder what obscure superpowers we might all be walking around with totally unaware that they are even superpowers. So please enjoy this episode. We are calling a four track mind. Here we go. Wait, wait, wait. Okay. Okay. Okay. All right. You're listening to radio lab. Radio from WNY.

5:18Hey. Yeah. Why? No, it won't be so bad. Oh, do you shoot it now? Yep. Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. This is radio lab. Yes, we, yes it is. No, we're doing the introduction. Ready? Here we go. Let's do it for real. Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. I'm Robert Crowley. This is Radio Lab. And today on the podcast, I want to tell you about a guy who hears music in a way that is just extraordinary and painful. Just thinking about this story makes me hurt. That's Jessica Benco. She's a reporter. Yep. And she's the one who initially told me the story. So a little while ago, I went up to visit this guy. Bye. Bob Mill. It's nice to see you. Nice to see you. Excuse my snowy feet here. And he lives in a tiny town in Michigan with his wife Linda. And who is he? He's an amazing piano player. The Library of Congress actually called him a national treasure.

6:20Really? He's had this special relationship with music ever since he was a boy. Did you grow up with any other instruments inside the house other than the piano, or was that what you started out of? Well, my mother made me take piano lessons and I hated it. I didn't like the sound of minor keys and the piano teachers had me playing a recital in which there was a shubber to minor key piece in it. And so on the recital, I played it in major. And everyone thought that was a travesty. These days, though, his main music isn't so much shubber. It's actually ragtime. One, two, three, four, one, two, three. Find the rhythms. So the thing about ragtime is that oftentimes the player is actually playing two different rhythms

7:21at the same time, one with the left hand, one with the right hand. And then he puts the rhythms of three in the right hand. The thing about Bob is he can do this like times a thousand. What does that even mean? Well, let me back up. I first heard about Bob from a neurologist named Kirsten Betterman, who is now at Penn State University. The first time I heard about Bob Millen was who friends. Kirsten heard about Bob from a colleague who'd seen him play for an audience. Well, I might just take a tune like a... He was actually playing multiple rhythms with his two different hands, and switching back and forth between different pieces of music, and carrying on a conversation at the same time. You can look up videos of Bob on YouTube, and you can see him performing and throwing out jokes. But at times, you'll see him carry on a full conversation while playing. From the perspective of a neurologist, this is actually really hard,

8:22because the part of your brain that should be engaged in playing a piece of music that complicated should also be engaged in having a conversation. The talking part and the playing part are the same part. They're the same part in most of us. For most people, that sort of thing, playing a complex piece of music and having a conversation would interfere with one another. Yes, that's what you usually would think. Unless you're highly skilled and you play maybe one piece of music at a time that you've done multiple times, but even then it would be very difficult to this degree. So, Kirsten got in touch with Bob, and she started asking him some questions. About the way he would perceive music. And in the course of chatting with him and talking about how he perceives music and all of this, he happened to say to her. But I could hear an entire symphony in my head, and I didn't think that was too big a deal, because I always listened to two of them at once. He told her, I only have to focus on the one mentally that I want to hear at a given time, and then that piece I played, but I hear them all ongoing. Did he just say he can hear two different symphonies in his head?

9:26At the same time, we thought this was very unusual. Yeah, but I mean, are we talking the full symphonies or just the melodies? Every instrument. Every instrument. And he can focus in and... Turn one of them up, one of them down, and they both run simultaneously. So then she pushed to the envelope and asked me if I can I hear three... Three pieces of music. And I said, well, I don't know, I'll never tried. But he was like, yeah, I think I could do three. When we challenged him a little bit, actually he said, I can't do four if you asked me. What? But I wouldn't go any further than that. No, that's total f***ing. Just four symphonies at the same time. That's just nothing but noise. Absolute quickophony. You know, the four pieces of music that just... Wow, I said, nobody can do this. You know, someone's really critical. Yeah, because it's not true. We had to think about how to test this. Let me tell you about how the experiment worked. And then tell me if you think it's true. All right. We came up with the behavioral test.

10:28So the first thing Kirsten had to do was find a control, someone to compare Bob to. So she found a conductor. Peter Paray, who's the former conductor of the Winston-Salem Symphony. Who is himself an accomplished musician. Before the test, she sent him and Bob... Four pieces of music. We had Schubert Symphony. We had Brahms. We had Beethoven. And finally, one from Mendelssohn. So you have to keep in mind, these four symphonies are in different keys and different tempos. They're different in their themes and instrumentations. And the challenge for them was to learn these four pieces of music. Completely memorized them. Four different tunes. And they only gave me a couple days to listen to them. And then play them in their mind.

11:28And we would then ask them where in a certain piece they would be after an arbitrary time. I'm not really following what they do. Okay, so here's what they did. They put these guys in the scanner. And they said to them, I want you to play the music in your mind. Play the music in your mind. Close your eyes and imagine the music. So no music is playing out loud. No music playing just inside their head. And are they imagining it however they want or... No, no. They... ...on the CD. Exactly what they had heard on the CD. So same instrument is coming in and out. Yep. Same tempo. So if it was a Vavace on the CD, Vavace in their head. Exactly. And why were they doing this again? Well, they wanted to see if these guys could track via memory. These really complicated pieces of music. I see. So they put the guys in the scanner and they're laying there. And on a screen in front of them, the words start flashes. And at that moment, they start playing the first piece of music back in their head. In the control room, they're tracking the music themselves to follow the timing.

12:29The researchers? Yeah. Oh, so while Bob and the studio are imagining it, they're actually keeping track of where the real CD is? Exactly. They let it go for a while. And at an arbitrary moment, they say, stop. And then they say, sing to me exactly where you are in the music. Like the note? The exact phrase. They go back. They compare the timing. To the CD. Right. To find out if these guys can really recreate inside their heads exactly what they'd heard. And? So our control was able to listen to one piece of music at a time and wants to really write on target with the right answer and timing within a second. Well, so this conductor's imagined symphony was only a second off from the real one? Yep. Same with Bob. So Bob's within a note or two. Not bad. Now, round two. The multi-song task, as we called it. They told them both to start that first piece of music again.

13:34And then a little bit later, they said, start the second piece of music in your head. Simultaneous. Yep. All right, I'm already like, come on. It's crazy. This is, we're simply slipped into fantasy. Well, and that's what happened for the conductor. He couldn't do it. He couldn't do two simultaneously. Yeah, of course he couldn't do it. It's impossible. I lost a little chance. He said this is an overwhelming impossible task. His brain just shut down. Well, like he died or something? He stopped even being able to track the first piece of music. Ah. He just got confused. Now we go to Bob. They put me into the MRI and they asked me to start tune one in your head. So I did. Then roughly 10, 15 seconds later, I got a message on the screen.

14:35It says, continue listening to one, start two. And then 15 seconds later, continue listening to tunes. One on two, start three. And then the same thing was tuned for. Then on the screen it's in step. And then the conductor came out and I could hear her talking to me from somewhere. And she says, Bob, where are you? Where are you in tune one? Beethoven's.

15:35Right now. What do you hear? So I told her. And I described what the piece was playing at that point. And the same thing with tune two. Three and four. And I was exactly right on to the note in each one of the symphonies. Jess, you're telling me something that's just not... Chris, that's a really... I know, I'm not. It's just my common sense right now is yelling like a three-year-old. It really is mind-boggling to think about and mix my brain hurt. But you know, we prove to you. You can do it. When Chris and gave you a different piece of music to listen to. Did any of them clash? No. No, they don't clash. They're all just playing different pieces. There's nothing chaotic about it. All right. So assuming this is true, how does he do this? How does he explain to himself how he does this?

16:37So I think there's two things going on here. The first has to do with emotion. Emotion. Bob is using different brain areas, I think. In his case, probably more emotional brain sense. Emotion deepens the way that we experience things, make stronger memories. And Bob has a really strong emotional relationship with music. With the wheel? Yeah, but it's a little bit beyond the whole minor keys, McMeanfield Sad. He has really specific emotions associated with individual keys on the scale. When I hear C major, it's a very bland key. It's like... I don't know how to describe. It's like eating water soup or something like that. But D major, the bright key that makes me want to dance, even though I can't dance. And every key, every one of the keys of the piano, had a different emotional attachment to me. So for Bob, if just the keys are triggering different emotions, yeah. Imagine what it must be like when you get to actual music.

17:40So you think that's something about how he experiences the emotions of the music, makes it etch more deeply in his brain or something? Yeah, I think he's... When he's got these four pieces of music going, he's not thinking hard about tracking each one of them. He's already in them. He feels them inside his body. And you can feel more with the one feeling at a time. So that's one idea. Radio Lab is supported by Capital One. With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply, see CapitalOne.com slash bank guy, Capital One, and a member FDIC. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've thought about trying therapy with our long-term sponsor BetterHelp.

18:42Insurance options may now be available nationwide, with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. Last night, I was having a nice sleep with my eyes popped open, and suddenly I remembered an email I forgot to send. And then I was just left wondering if my right eye should be as itchy as it was. Here's the thing. Anxiety does not pay attention to business hours. It shows up on the weekends, on vacation, and yes, after hours. But therapy can help. Having someone to talk to about those things on your mind can turn fitful nights into dreamy bliss. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp says it works with more than 125 health plan networks, and that eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance, or don't live in the United States. You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit BetterHelp.com slash radio lab to explore your payment options that's better HELP.com slash radio lab. Radio Lab is supported by Bombas.

19:43Cozy season is quickly coming upon us. That means crisp fall mornings and layers. Bombas makes your comfyest fall staples, so you can make the most out of one of the best seasons of the year. Fall weather can be fickle, but with Bombas in your sock drawer, you can rest assured that there's a perfect pair for whatever your day holds. After all, your first layer should be your comfyest layer. Then there's Bombas compression sock collection. Specialized designs for travel, every day, workout, and recovery. There's a fatigue fighting pair for every moment. And the best part about Bombas? For every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchase equals one donation with over 200 million donated and counting. Head over to bombas.com slash radio lab and use code radio lab. For 20% off your first purchase, that's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash radio lab, code radio lab at checkout. This week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, Jeremy Strong stars in a new film about the tech mogul Mark Zuckerberg.

20:46Part of my job in sort of fighting his fight is, and this is going to be an unpopular thing to say, trying to have an empathetic understanding of this person's struggle. Jeremy Strong on the social reckoning. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. The second idea has to do actually more with image and space, really. So Bob often closes his eyes when he's talking. It just helps him focus. So I asked him if he could try playing back two pieces of music right now. And I asked him, when you hear these two symphonies in your head, what are you seeing? I can picture two symphony orchestras sitting side by side. He actually sees the literal orchestras in his head? Yeah, and I see them as silhouettes.

21:46There's no conductor in front of either one. There's a brownish hue out in front of them like it's the floor. It's more the color of the deep brown of a violin. And in back of them, there's a semi-circle that's blueish in color. Then when I listen to them, I'm going to listen to Brown's second symphony over in the left side. And over in the right side, I'll turn in the Emperor Concerto III movement. I'm listening to that. These are two different keys. Emperors in E-flat, Brown's is in D. So now, if I want to pay particular attention, let's say I want to listen to the Emperor here. I'm going to go into the E major. I just sped it up. I can speed the thing up to go to some other part in it. I can jump backwards. Let's see, just a minute. I can hear it in half. I can put it into any key I want to.

22:47But I'm going to roar forward in this third movement of the Emperor here. And I'm listening to the E major variation on the piano, which is just like a... Or it's just racking on this beautiful E major chord pivoting around to the E-flat note. And going up and down from there on the piano. Wow. Wow! So his crazy town's may have something to do with this movie-making thing that he does in his head. Yeah, but it's not just a movie. It's like a 3D movie. He can use it to find out where a specific instrument is. How do you mean? In his mind's eye, he can fly out over these orchestras and actually look down on the individual instrument he wants to see. Man, I'm looking down and I see the piano out in front of them. He can zoom in and see them playing their instrument. Okay, now I'm up there in the air listening to this thing. And over on my left side, I can still hear this Brown is going along. And Brown's, I can only see the silhouettes from the front.

23:47Whereas the guy, the Emperor over here, I can see full color in every person's face in it. Plus here, the lines of their playing. And as he's flying out over these orchestras, the instruments actually get louder and softer depending on where he is. Like if he goes behind orchestra number one. Or I can hear the bass much, much louder. And let's see. Yeah, then if I go over to the left side, I'm hearing the violin. And he says he can float right above the players and actually see what they're doing. I can see every wrinkle in the pleated shirts of their tuxedos. And I can see the deep brownish orangeish color of the violas. And I can hear the deep sound, beautiful sound of that low viola. And I can hear every little rat-rosan scratch across their bows. God, listening to music for this guy must be like an acid trip.

24:47The way that he's describing it. I think it is. And when he listens to recorded music, it's so much diminished from what he feels when he's imagining it. Huh, so he doesn't listen to CDs. He cannot stand listening to CDs. Oh wow. Yeah. He's a real example of the extremes of the human mind. So what does he do with these crazy talents? He's like a billionaire. Nope. First of all, Ragtime's not exactly the most popular form of music in the United States at this point. But it's what he likes to play. And he plays, you know, 250 shows a year. But a lot of them are at historical societies or churches. Well, Linda and I, we've got a small motor home. I'd send airport bus, one of those little 15 passenger buses. It's got a hot shower and a bathroom and a bed, of course. So, you know, he travels around in his little motor home with his wife when he can and without her when he can't and sleeps in Walmart parking lots.

25:48He's working on an opera, which is mostly done. And he writes it in his head while he's driving. And then he sits down in a McDonald's and writes it out on paper. And, you know, that's pretty much what he does with this life. Music Thanks to reporter Jess Banco for that great story. And also to producer Mark Phillips for making it sound so good. But why should we share the information where we just did? Why not do the outro in a way that Bob Millen would fully and completely appreciate? You mean so we should say it all together and make it sound? Simultaneously, are you'll be able to think the jazz side and then the Roberts? Okay, ready? One, two, three, four. Thank you to people who play the piano.

26:50Thank you to listeners of the piano players who play the piano. Thank you to all of our two, two of our two of those pianos. Thank you to Walmart and for discounting good. Thank you to the left hand hitting the piano. Thank you Robert. Thank you mate. See you there. Hi, I'm Maya and I'm from London. And here are the staff credits. Radio Lab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasa. Soron Wheeler is our executive editor. Sarah Sandbach is our executive director. Our managing editor is part Walters. Dylan Keath is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Jeremy Bloom, W. Harry for tuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindu 9-Sambandan, Matt Keelty, Mona Mordgaulka, Alex Niesen, Sara Kari, Natalia Ramirez, Joanna Strogats, Anisa Vietzer, Ariane Wack, Molly Webster and Jessica Young.

27:50With help from Maya Applebee Malamid, Laura Carpass and Olivia Rose Greco. Our fact checkers are Nora Belbedia, Hilary Elkins, Rachel Gross, Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Natalie Middleton and Sophie Semi. Hi, I'm Aubrey, calling from Salt Lake City, Utah. Leadership support for Radio Lab's science programming is provided by the Simon Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Conditional support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. My day kicks off with the refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym. Pre-get pick up, back home to meal prep, time for my fire session shift. One more Celsius gotta keep the lights on. When the three alarm hits, I'm ready. Celsius, live, fit, go. Grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now at Celsius.com.