Before Hiring a Therapist Codependency Expert, Know This First

Many women spend years (and thousands of dollars) hiring a therapist codependency​ expert after someone convinces them they are the problem.

If someone has labeled you “codependent” because you reacted to your husband’s problematic behavior, stop for a moment. Before you schedule therapy, understand this: you may not need to fix yourself — you may need to protect yourself.

You May NOt Need a Therapist Codependency Expert, You MIght Be Seeking Emotional Safety

Often, betrayal trauma victims (women who have experienced their husband’s lies or betrayal) are doing anything they can to save their marriage, not understanding what’s actually been happening. Women in this situation are rightfully trying to protect themselves, which is always good. But some people want to put these healthy behaviors in a negative light. They call her codependent, misleading her.

They tell her to blame herself: “What have YOU done to contribute to the problem?” This wrong advice helps the abuser continue to harm her. It also makes it harder for the victim to set healthy boundaries.

But What If I’m Actually Codependent?

Many women find that after they create distance between herself and emotional and psychological abuse, what they thought were “character flaws” often fade away. These traits were really healthy resistance to abuse. To find out if you’ve been experiencing emotional abuse, here’s my free emotional abuse test.

Transcript: Hiring a Therapist Codependency Expert, Know This First

This episode follows Felicia’s Story
Part 1: Before Hiring a Therapist Codependency Expert, Know This First (THIS EPISODE)
Part 2: Divorce and Emotional Abuse – Felicia Checks in 9 Months Later

Anne: I have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Felicia, on today’s episode. Welcome, Felicia.

Felicia: Thank you.

Anne: I’m so grateful you’re sharing your story with us. We’re going to be addressing the label of codependent and maybe seeking a therapist codependency expert for help. But let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how he seemed to you at first?

Felicia: We met at a Bible college and the first thing that I asked is, Could I use his book? Because I didn’t want to buy the professor’s book. He said, Oh, this is a wonderful book. I’ll buy it for you. I want to tell you my intentions are not to hit on you or to flirt with you. So I love that he was so straightforward and didn’t have any other intentions.

We became friends because I believed that he said what he meant. We fell in love, but there was no flirting, we didn’t have the same friends. So I was like, this is really weird, but I really, really like you. But it’s not like this desperate feeling, and that’s how we started off.

Felicia: It was a long distance relationship at first.

What Does it Mean to be Codependent in a Relationship​: NOT THIS

Anne: Looking back, do you think that he was being honest or do you think he really did have intentions to have a relationship with you?

Felicia: I think he just told me what I wanted to hear. I was like, it’s not this desperate feeling. And he was like, me either. So let’s not date right away. I thought we would date. Because we both just told each other we liked each other.

It was the relationship I thought I wanted at first. Except for lack of an emotional side to it. But yeah looking back, I think he just is really good at picking up on what people want to hear. Then filling that in.

Anne: Like low key. Hey, we’re just friends. Type grooming.

Anne: How did it transition into dating?

Felicia: I was just leaving the area. He said, yeah, let’s just do emails and phone calls. He said, I want you to pray about this for one week, that we should be boyfriend and girlfriend. I was just kind of disappointed that there wasn’t this emotional connection. I didn’t have any boyfriends through life to speak of. He said I want you to think about what you need in a relationship. Then we dated long distance still just talking on the phone.

Codependent Therapist​ Can’t Help With This

Felicia: It wasn’t gooey at all. They were like really good conversations. That to me was the perfect part of our relationship. Very good conversations about how we felt and thought. They weren’t long and drawn out. It was just fun to talk to him and then we started setting boundaries.

He said, We’re probably going to pursue each other for marriage. Also, I think that I should come and get you. He was in Georgia and wanted to come to Idaho to get me. He said we should live in the same community if we’re going to see if we’re fit for marriage. We laid down physical boundaries, and I was like, okay, cool. I definitely don’t want to get over involved physically before I’m married. He said he needed these boundaries for himself.

But as soon as we saw each other, we started crossing the boundaries that we had laid. It didn’t feel good. I didn’t like it. By the time we were back to our destination, where we were going to live in the same town. I was kind of like, what did I get into? And that was when we were dating. We weren’t even engaged yet. We got engaged several months later and married the next year.

Anne: So at this time, you’re thinking, all that stuff we talked about. The boundaries that we set up, he didn’t adhere to any of them. Do you feel like you were coerced into it? He’s already setting you up to be responsible for him not keeping the boundary, and you identifying as codependent.

You DON’T Need To Learn How to be Less Codependent​

Felicia: Yeah, I thought it was sinning. And he was like, we can pray for peace and forgiveness. Because Jesus will give us that. It would feel so good and amazing and freeing, then within hours a day or whatever later, we’d be at it again. He would say that I was seducing him. Which I would feel really bad about. So I just thought I was bad. And we went to our family and our church and told them, we’re in sin.

We’re not having it, but we’re breaking boundaries. And we tried to get help, and I thought, we just can’t resist each other. So then when we got engaged, I thought, let’s just get married right away. At least we have that connection.

Early Marriage Struggles

Felicia: But when we got married, it immediately stopped. We didn’t have a connection. We had a really bad beginning of marriage, no honeymoon spot, we would fight. I thought, Oh, it’s because we were sinful before. But I married thinking I was pure and it was confusing. How did we struggle so bad before marriage? Now that we’re married, it immediately stopped.

Anne: He’s basically saying, I’m so attracted to you that I cannot keep my hands off you. So even though I’ve set these boundaries, it’s impossible to keep them. Because I’m so attracted to you. Don’t worry about it because we can just call on Jesus, he understands and we’ll both be fine. We can repent and yet he never actually repents because he keeps doing it.

Then you get married and then he’s just not attracted to you anymore, apparently. Because now it’s very easy for him to avoid physical contact. Is that what I’m hearing?

Felicia: You said it all right. He made a lot of excuses. So that period of the marriage lasted 12 years. I lived in like a giant fog of why our intimate life had never been ignited once we got married.

Emotional Disconnect

Felicia: It was kind of the big red flag, but emotionally we didn’t connect. We had a really bad honeymoon and after that he would say things like, it is just emotional for me. So if we’re not connected, I don’t want to have it with you. Things like that, that made me feel like, well, I can’t force him.

Over 12 years, I mean, we started having kids together. My drive waned, so it was kind of like, well, it’s no big deal now. But I would ask things like, why he thought it was like that. And one time he just said, he was going through medical school so it was so strenuous. I just looked up things and thought, I bet he’s too busy.

Anne: He was using any excuse he could get his hands on. Anything that he heard, maybe women are like, Oh, I’m not emotionally connected so I don’t want to have it. Which was not his case. Because I’m guessing we’re going to find out real soon that he’s having it with someone else. But he’s just trying to grab hold of any excuse he can. To groom you into thinking it’s your fault that he’s not interested.

When did you find out about the explicit materials use or the infidelity?

Discovering The Truth

Felicia: After twelve years of marriage. So it was in twenty, twenty one. I think it was the Holy Spirit coming into my intuition, cause I was just like, something is wrong. For some reason it’s bothering me more now, and I’m not gonna let it stop bothering me. I had gone to lots of counseling over the years, and never really found a problem with me.

I went through a major lifestyle program, like residential treatment program for depression. That always owned up to being postpartum depressed and seasonal depression and all this stuff. Finally was like, you know what? It’s my marriage.

Then I went to counseling and being like, it’s my marriage, help me. But at this point in time, I couldn’t sleep. I was just crying all the time. I was pregnant with our fourth kid, but I was like, this is not the same thing as pregnancy hormones. This is something deeper.

So I just started digging and finding it on his device and I was like, the kids could have found this.

You got to make sure that this doesn’t pop up on your computer screen. And he’s like, yeah, you’re right. That’s really bad. I’ll make sure I don’t leave that up anymore. But then I dug and dug and dug and kept saying, tell me the whole truth. Because I need to know that I know everything, because I’m finding images on his device.

Anne: You’re finding lots of exploitative material and he’s giving excuses or saying, I don’t know.

Felicia: Just kind of acting like he used a thing to watch movies. It would just pop up so he would just exit back out, you know? That’s all it is.

Gaslighting & Blame

Felicia: One thing that he’d never done is ever had a big problem he’d been sorry about. I’d had like, a number of problems but he’d never been like, you know what, here’s this big issue or problem. I feel like In marriages two people usually have problems, but in our marriage, it was always just me.

Anne: Tell me more about that. Was it like, Oh, I have a problem with my friend, for example. Or I have a problem because I’m sick. Or was it like, you mean just like general everyday problems that humans have? Like he didn’t have any of these regular problems.

Felicia: He didn’t have regular problems. I would be like, do you think you’re a sinner? And he’s like, oh yeah, of course I’m a sinner. But he never had any confession of like, you know what, I feel really bad about this. He didn’t actually even say sorry, so I didn’t learn about gaslighting until much later. But If I came to him with, like, this makes me feel bad, when this happens. It would turn into, like, you don’t know how hard it is to have a depressed wife.

Emotional Abuse

Felicia: Or, he was now in medical residency, so he’s like, I think you have ADD. So I actually went to my own doctor saying, like, I think I might have ADD. And my doctor was like, No, you don’t have ADD at all. He didn’t even seem like he had problems. I was like, I guess he’s this amazing person, I guess I’m just a monster. I decided when I got married that I was a monster and I never knew that I was. When we ever had a problem, it would go back to, I bet he hasn’t forgiven me.

For how badly I treated him when we were first married. That’s what I decided it was, I just treated him really bad. I thought it was my fault. Maybe I needed a therapist codependency​ expert or something like that.

He’s like a super awesome guy. And he just can’t forgive me because he’s so sensitive. I hurt him that bad. He never had any offerings for why our marriage sucked. So I would offer things.

Anne: But he wouldn’t.

Felicia: Yeah, he would never.

Anne: Abusers have a very distinct pattern. They only start their story after the real victim has started to resist the abuse. So the beginning of your marriage, you’re being abused and you’re trying to resist this abuse.

He starts the story with like, everything was fine. Nothing was wrong. Suddenly she started treating me really bad rather than saying, I actually coerced her. And made her seem like I was super attracted to her. And then we got married and I completely ignored her and didn’t have it with her at all.

Realizing The Extent Of Abuse

Anne: And I was a complete jerk, and then she was trying to resist me being terrible. If they started the story there, it would make sense. But instead they’re like, “Yeah, everything was fine.” We got married. I thought our marriage was great. They don’t tell people I was refusing to have it with her. I was giving her the impression I wasn’t into to her.

So then when people hear his side of the story. They’re like, Wow, she just out of the blue is like super mad at you.

Felicia: The other thing is there’s this common, I don’t know if that’s like a religious thing or whatever. But where like the man’s passive and the woman pushes him to not be passive. And that pushing to not be passive is really bad. That’s what I did. I was like, you know what, that was really bad that I pushed him to not be passive.

I would let myself get all enraged at his passiveness. But looking back, it was like this passive aggression that he knew he was doing. And like, silent treatments, he’s very argumentative. Somehow he would like, shut down right when I ignited. Anyway, so I learned to like, turn that off. And stop pushing him, especially so that we could have children.

Cause he said, we can’t have children until I stop this aggression and our marriage gets better. So I like became someone who just swallowed everything. Now I go back and I’m seeing there was a beautiful woman inside of me clawing. Saying, this is wrong. Something is completely messed it up and I disagree. And I’m not just going to go along with it.

Confronting The Truth

Felicia: That’s what happened. I became someone who just went along with stuff. I didn’t I didn’t talk to him very much at all because he was just going to disagree. We were going to have an argument so I just listened to him. He would just go on and on and on and on. He was a like a monologue-er. That’s where we were when I found it.

I finally said I have to know everything. And he was like, oh, no, you know everything. And I said, okay, I’m never gonna talk to you about this again. I’m gonna ask you one more time. Do I know everything? Have you told me the whole truth about this exploitative materials use that I keep finding? And he said, yes. So I said, okay, I’m never going to talk about it again.

I wrote him an email, because I couldn’t sleep at night. And I was like, I know that there’s something wrong. I said that either Satan’s tormenting me. Or the Holy Spirit’s trying to communicate something to me. And that’s when he said, okay, let’s talk. That’s when he took me on a walk, and we dropped the kids off.

Then he told me the whole truth about the previous 12 years. And how he’d watched this off and on. He said it was like, good exploitative material, it wasn’t violent, or whatever. He said he’d done that off and on for 12 years, actually his whole life.

Keeping It Secret

Anne: I feel like when they give details, you know that that’s the thing that they’re lying about. Because, why do you need to say that? A lot of times they do this fake honesty where they’re like, this is the whole truth. I highly doubt that it was. Do you feel the same way?

Felicia: I feel the same way. I mean, I felt peace for a little bit. I was like, you know what, our marriage is totally gonna work now. Because we have honesty. But the relationship was just as broken as it ever had been.

Anne: At this point where you’re like, okay, he’s told me the “whole truth.” So I’m not really going to bring it up again. Did he go to therapy? Was he just like, okay, now that I’ve told you the whole truth, I’m never going to do it again.

Felicia: I started bringing it up again. So I never decided, you know what, I’m not going to bring it up again. I did that email, and then he told me the whole truth, and then I just took the liberty to put the relationship into his hands. And be like, give me a reason for all of this. Because It was just such big thing. That our whole marriage was.

I’m constantly like, How do two people find each other like this, fall in love. Then it becomes what it is? It never made sense. I walked around meeting people, older women, being like, Can we talk? Thinking that they would be like, my mentor and help me find out. But it was me that needed to find out the truth.

Realization About Emotional Abuse

Felicia: No one else knew. When I finally found out, I was like, I feel like this is the reason for our whole entire relationship. And then that’s when I realized about covert emotional abuse and covert narcissism. One, when you watch this stuff, you become less emotionally attentive and able.

Anne: I’ve started seeing you become less interested instead of “blaming” the use. It’s like when you use you don’t have the desire to be intimate with people anymore. It’s not like it makes you that way. You just don’t care anymore. Because I think if we say, if you view it, then your brain gets shut off. It sort of takes the choice away.

We have to recognize that they could still say, wait a minute, this is hurting my wife, this is hurting me. This is hurting my family. I don’t want to do this anymore, but they just don’t have the desire to make anything different.

Felicia: He did start into therapy. He of course he had problems with his counselor. And didn’t think it was working. So he wanted to, stop. I think he’d like jumped around. Needed to find like the perfect therapy. But he found his own therapy and like his own books that he thought he should read. I actually thought that sources that he found were very good and should have been helpful.

Husband Blames Me For Being Codependent

Felicia: But our relationship was not getting any better. One thing that bothered him as I started to say that he needed to take all the responsibility for the pathology in our marriage. I was like you need to take all the responsibility for that. Because along the way, I had been taking responsibility for each bad thing that I thought I did.

If he brought something up, I would be like, you know what, you’re right. And I would try to change. But he never had, then I was like, well now you have to take the responsibility for the whole pathology. He took that to mean I was blaming all of our marital problems on him. And he’s like, this is just too much. This is just too much pressure.

Anne: For some reason it wasn’t too much pressure for him to blame you for all of the emotional abuse.

Felicia: Exactly, I know. I’m like, Oh my gosh, you have no idea what I’ve been putting on my shoulders this whole time.

Anne: Also, it was 100 percent his fault. So, what’s the problem? Literally was 100 percent his fault.

Felicia: He wants to back up until the original in a marriage, it takes two people to make it work. So like, that’s what I had gone by. And I had tried to be the person to stand up and say, I’m going to do my part. Then after he completely has a secret for over a decade, that I never found out about.

That I couldn’t know about, now all of a sudden I’m like, this is your fault. If he really felt sorry he would have been like, you’re totally right, it’s all my fault.

Gaslighting & Divorce

Felicia: But instead he’s like, oh my gosh, that’s too much pressure. This is a marriage, you can’t blame it all on me. I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery at that time. I grew a lot and found out a lot, it really helped me. He was just focused on this awful stuff and I was finding out that this is not about exploitative material. This is about every way we relate.

The gaslighting and the blaming, it’s just like a physical abuse problem where the husband batters the wife. Except for you don’t want to look bad by actually hitting me. So you hit me emotionally, and there are no bruises. I mean, that’s, I feel like it’s 100 percent what the problem was. So I started to get to safety. We had times where I left the house for a few weeks. I think at a time, like three times that year. That was the year we got divorced.

You’re Not Codependent, You Are Being Abused

Anne: Divorcing a narcissist is so hard. When did you think that you might be codependent?

Felicia: It was probably 2021. Actually, before I found out about his use. I was calling myself an empath because he would come home and have these rages. And it would really bother me. Sliming cupboards when he’s cleaning and stonewalling. I would be like, you know what, this is my fault because he’s had a really bad day.

He didn’t tell me that I did anything wrong. And he’s like, he’s not telling me that, you know, I’m in a bad mood and don’t talk to me. So I was blaming it on that I feel him too much. Like he’s coming home and I’m like feeling all of this. Then I’m starting in on this fix it thing, which is labeling me as codependent. When I should just be like, Oh, you know, you’re allowed to have a bad day. That’s okay if you slam cupboards and stuff because you’re not hurting me.

Anne: During the time where you think maybe you’re an empath, was that when you thought that maybe you were codependent?

Felicia: I guess we have to kind of define codependency.

Anne: The official definition of codependent, which I do not think codependent is a thing. So I don’t even want to be like this. I want to be like, people have made this up and it’s a victim blaming thing that people use.

And in their minds, this is what codependent means. Characterized by excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner. Typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.

Am I Codependent? Asking A Counselor About Codependency

Anne: So it’s saying you’re the one with the problem because you, Felicia. Which this is not true, but this is why it’s victim blaming.

You have this excessive emotional and psychological reliance on him. That’s not the case. He’s abusing you and you’re just trying to survive. Because in trying to get to safety, you’re trying to figure out what do I have control over? Maybe if I don’t feel all of his feelings. If I’m not so excessively reliant on him, then things will get better is what you’re thinking?

You are trying to make him into a safe person and other people are defining it as codependent.

Felicia: Yeah, almost like, oh, I need him to come home and be a peaceful person. That’s really bad of me to need someone to come home and be peaceful. Is that really codependent? That’s exactly it. And you know what? I do remember asking a counselor back in 2017 if I was codependent. She said, oh my gosh being codependent is a big problem. Let’s work on that.

I always felt like it was led by me to try to find what was wrong. I never wanted to be like, I’m here because I hate my marriage and my marriage is like ruining my life. So I thought it was a broader problem. Maybe it was my growing up or my background. Then when I found out it was exploitative material, she said, “I want to tell you this is abuse.”

I kind of rolled my eyes, because I was like, oh brother, like, abuse. That was just annoying to me.

Will Codependency Treatment​ WOrk?

Felicia: And I think it was just too much for me to look into, so I waited six or nine months. And that’s when I found Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And was like, yeah, it’s abuse.

Anne: So you didn’t stay in that codependent place forever. Women think that if their codependent then they can fix things. You find BTR. You were like, Oh, I’m not codependent, it’s really important to me that women know they are not codependent. Did you use BTR services at all?

Felicia: I did the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, and I did individual sessions. The group sessions were mind blowing. Because it was the first time I’d found a bunch of other people that completely related with absolutely everything I was saying. I thought this covert emotional abuse was like a specific problem that I had that, you know, was obscure.

Yeah, everyone in the group understood and you didn’t have to get them to understand what you were talking about. It was just like, yeah, we get it.

Anne: How was that different than the therapy that you had been going to?

Felicia: All those years. I was like looking for friendships, mentorships, counselors. Who would say, “Oh I found the problem that is perplexing your whole life.” I mean, it’s dragging you down. There’s that cave analogy where I’ve been like locked in a cave with an abuser. But also like a slave, a slave who like feels they need to be there because they need to help the master because that’s going to be a beautiful relationship.

Anne: Once you can help him enough, it’s going to be great. Just hold on a little bit longer.

Felicia: Yeah, it’s going to be a good marriage. That’s what marriage is.

codependency vs interdependency​

Felicia: And now here I am finding out that it is not the right way. And people don’t understand. I tell my friends and family pretend like this is physical abuse because it’s exactly the same. I don’t know what people think emotional abuse is. But it seems at first that it’s like an excuse or something.

Betrayal Trauma Recovery answered all of that. I was just desperate for years to find an answer. And it answered like all of that confusion that I had. I’m like, I don’t know how these other wives find out about it and then they just go on In their marriage. For me, I couldn’t be safe doing that.

Anne: Let’s talk to women who are like, “Well, what if it’s not abuse?” who think, “Maybe I’m codependent.” or ” Maybe he’s an addict.”

How do you know that the Betrayal Trauma Recovery model, the abuse model is real. Because I think some women are worried, I’ve thought it’s that before and it hasn’t been that. So there’s no reason to go down this abuse thing. Because I’m just going to find out in six months that it’s not abuse, that it’s actually something else.

Felicia: I’m still kind of in that, because now that we’re divorced, the co parenting is a nightmare. And I still am like, is it me?

Anne: This is why I wrote my workshop.

Will codependent no more activities​ Work?

Felicia: Not only that, but one humongous piece of the story is that right when I got the divorce, he turned all my friends against me. I have no friends now. It’s really hard to go to a church where you’re connected. And you have, good friends that you get together with, I told them about the abuse.

And they were like yeah, and I didn’t think they totally got it. I didn’t think they were gonna disown me. Like, these people have called me names and are not fun to see at the grocery store. So, it’s hard to believe that It’s not me, and so I’ve wondered if it’s me.

I think relationships, good marriage relationships are not confusing. There’s problems. You can see what’s going on. You can try to fix the problems and try to love each other more. But this relationship was completely confusing. There was no reconciliation. There was no now we can love each other now that we found that out. None of that. There was never any of that.

Anne: I think some women do go through a period of, Oh, now that we know this, things will get better. And if they do go to a addiction recovery specialist, they’ll actually tell them that. They’ll actually say things will get better now that you know this. They kind of do get better for a little bit, but then they don’t get all the way better and things are still confusing.

Is Codependency Bad​: Here’s What To KNow

Anne: Then some addiction recovery folks, like a 12 step group or something, they’ll say, well, now you have to stay in recovery because you’re a codependent. And wife, you also have to do 12 step and you have to do this the rest of your life. Because this will always be an issue. Then do you just keep seeing that pattern over and over? And the problem is an abuse problem that keeps cropping up.

We all have healthy relationships with people who aren’t perfect. You can laugh about it. Like, Oh man, that’s funny. She sometimes is disorganized and she forgets things. She doesn’t become less forgetful necessarily. But the resolution is you learn, Oh, she’s forgetful sometimes. And that’s okay. We can work with this.

Abuse is not something that you can work with because abuse is always a power over dynamic. And so anytime it gets to a place where something feels resolved and you feel equal. Then the abuser will try to push you down again somehow. There’s never going to be any resolution possible.

Felicia: Trying to stop it, but it’s like the it is a symptom of this power and control. So it’d be like if you get physically abused and you try to stop the hitting. And the solution is to stop the hitting. That doesn’t make sense. They’re hitting you because of a power and control. You’re not just gonna try to stop the hitting and be like for the rest of your life. We’re gonna just try to stop the hitting.

Anne: But you can still lie and manipulate and all kinds of other things.

What Does Codependency Look Like​?

Felicia: Yeah, I also learned about the secret sexual basement from Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s like, why is it abusive when someone lies to you? When you get married to that person, and let’s say you build a house together. And then after 12 years you realize there’s this basement that no one knew about.

That person got to go into the basement whenever they did, because they always knew about it. The whole family is like, what? I didn’t even know that we had this basement. That’s why it’s like abuse, because it’s It’s his choice when he wants to go. Also, why he wants to go, he knows all about it. Everyone else just has no clue that it was even in the makings of a construction. Much less what the content of that basement is.

Anne: It’s so hard, and it’s also hard when other people don’t know how to help victims identify this, right? Because they’ll go and say, my husband, to use this metaphor a little bit longer, he left, I don’t know where he’s going, I’m so confused. And instead of saying, oh, well, maybe he’s an abuser. Maybe you’re being psychologically abused, maybe he’s doing it in the basement, you know? As victims it’s hard to know the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict.

They’re like, oh, he just probably needs his space, and it’s healthy for people to have space, and then it just gets so confusing.

Codependency and Narcissism​

Felicia: Yeah, the normal marriage wisdom doesn’t work for abuse situations. Just don’t expect so much. That doesn’t work. Give, give, give, and don’t expect anything in return. I mean, those were the things I grew up hearing about marriages. If you could guarantee me that both people were doing that, that’s true.

But the minute one person does that and the other person has no intentions of doing that. That’s what was baffling is after all these years, I’m like, I can’t believe that we’re marriage partners.

This is the person I’m supposed to be more intimate with than anyone else in the whole world. And I find out that you’ve been doing this. Against me and they say it’s not about you that exploitative material isn’t about you. That’s also very disturbing and not helpful. I don’t know who it’s about but it’s totally done to me. When you say to your wife, I don’t want to have it. No, thanks. I’m not in the mood. Or whatever your reasoning is, and then you’re off, having it with yourself.

Anne: It’s not true because they are in the mood to have it, but they’d rather have it with the computer. They’re not being truthful when they say that. They’re not being truthful when they say “I’m not in the mood.”

How to Heal From Codependency: Spoiler, You Don’t​

Anne: They’re in the mood all the time to have it with someone else. Instead they should say, “Oh, I totally want to have it.

I have it so much. I do every day, twice a day. When I look at stuff online, I just don’t want to have it with you. That would be the truth. Then you’d be like, Oh, whoa. Instead, he’s just happy to have you think that you’re just unattractive, and somehow he doesn’t want to have it at all because you’re the way that you are. That’s absolutely not true.

Felicia: There’s so much problem in that, when you really think about a husband and a wife. What you just said is like, can you believe that would just be a simple problem? No. There’s so much, on every level, of betrayal right there. My ex explained to me that when he was trying to get me to see what it really was.

But when he said this, it was helpful. He’s like, it’s like going through a drive thru and ordering whatever you want. Then going and eating it in your car. You didn’t want to eat it in front of everybody because it’s kind of embarrassing that you’re a pig, or whatever. Even though it’s bad that he was trying to get me to understand that, that is exactly what it is.

What You Did Doesn’t Equal Codependency Examples​

Felicia: It’s like a menu, and I wasn’t on the menu. Almost ever. I’m like barely ever on the menu.

Anne: Well, and you don’t want to be on the menu.

Felicia: I don’t want to be on the menu either.

Anne: Basically, you’re not a person to them. That’s just gross. No woman wants to be like, Oh yeah, I’m on the menu. Yay. Like, no.

Felicia: You’re exactly right.

Anne: Why do you think it takes victims so long to realize they’re a victim of emotional abuse?

Felicia: I don’t know. For me, like I said, I kind of rolled my eyes when I heard abuse. Because it’s like, oh great, everything’s abuse nowadays.

These Are NOT Signs of a Codependent Relationship​

Felicia: Abuse is one sided. I get into a marriage and if it’s abuse, I have to be like, you have a problem with hurting me. And it’s not my fault. And it ruins our relationship, but you need to change, and I can do nothing about it. That sucks. Not only am I not gonna say it’s my fault, but you’re not gonna say it’s your fault either. And I can’t do anything about it. The powerlessness, I guess.

Anne: It’s awful. I think that’s why women sometimes like the word codependent because It seems more empowering to them in the moment than abuse. Because if you are codependent then there is something you can do about it. If you’re partially responsible, by being codependent then you can do something about it. But if you’re not responsible for it at all, you can’t. And that feels terrible. Some women are like, I’d rather think I was codependent because then I have some power in the situation.

Whereas If I say it’s abuse, then the only thing I can do is get to safety. It doesn’t necessarily mean divorce. You can work towards safety. And he could have an epiphany like we talk about in the BTR BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. At any given time, he could enter reality and realize, Oh, I am being abusive.

I’m not going to do this anymore. But if he’s doing it on purpose, you telling him, “Hey, this is abuse,” is only going to make him abuse you more. Because he’s trying to shut that down.

you Don’t Need Codependency Counseling​

Felicia: Right, and there’s obviously a power dynamic anyway. That makes it worse now the powerful person is mad, basically.

I used to think it was wrong for me to think that my husband should treat me more affectionate, more loving. those are woman qualities. You shouldn’t expect a man to have those woman qualities. He can be gruff and, and kind of dumb, kind of clueless.

It was a thread throughout our whole marriage where he’s accidentally doing stuff to me. But because I’m extremely sensitive it causes a problem, but he’s really just like bumbling around in life. He can’t be hurting me if it’s not intentional.

He only can hurt me if he purposely did it. That was grooming, where I was like, made to believe that his intentions were always good. So I shouldn’t accuse him of doing anything that might say that he had bad intentions, because he never did.

Anne: Well, and the problem with that is the reason why they’re so hell bent on proving that their intentions are good. And that they didn’t mean to do it on purpose is because they did mean it on purpose. That is so hard for women to understand. That they want you to think. that they are doing it accidentally. Then they can kind of keep doing it because they always have a reason to do it. Oh, it was an accident.

Victim Is NOT a codependent synonym​

Anne: Of course I don’t think that if they said to their wives, no, I do this on purpose so I can exploit you. The wives would immediately be like, Oh, what? No, so they have to continually convince their victims that It’s accidental.

Therapists love that too. Oh, you’re doing it because of your childhood trauma. Or because of this and that, and whatever excuse they can think of, because it’s just too hard to admit. No, I do this on purpose because if I didn’t, I would have to take out the trash. And I would have to make dinner. I would have to help drive the kids around, and I don’t want to do that.

I just want to exploit her. And so I’m going to keep doing this instead. It’s absolutely more socially acceptable to pretend like you’re doing it on accident.

You Don’t Need To heal Your Codependency​, You Need Community

Anne: So now that you’re divorced and you can still see that he is abusive. Because he’s still doing it. now. he’s still blaming you and causing problems and co parenting is just an absolute nightmare. What would you say to women who are starting this process of, well, I’m not sure if he’s so abusive. Maybe I can do something about it. Maybe I am codependent. What would you say to them?

Felicia: The part that I’m still wrapping my head around is my whole community of believers just abandon me.

Anne: Like your congregation or your church?

Felicia: Yeah, that’s where I had friends, and I mean, we were moving cross country. I’ve lived all over the place in his educational and career pursuit. But I had lived where I lived for a couple of years. It was going to be like our forever home. I actually found friends, really good friends, right away. I guess I’m just mind boggled that they turned against me.

They do not want to have anything to do with me and they must believe I’m the bad guy. I don’t know what they believe about me, what lies were told about me. There’s three towns where I don’t even want to go to the grocery store. Because I have friends from those towns that I have seen at the grocery store. And had a bad encounter with.

That doesn’t even answer your question at all. It’s part of the story that’s the cliffhanger. Where I’m just trying to get healthy again, and stand up for myself. Because I know I’m right. And I’m trying to be my best friend that listens to me.

How to Cure Codependency​: Spoiler, You Don’t Need To

Anne: Would you say that maybe what you’re struggling with is all of this secondary abuse that you’re experiencing? Because he has purposefully now tried to convince all of these people. And actually not just tried, been successful in convincing them that you’re the abuser on purpose, to isolate you and hurt you.

So now it’s like, oh, I thought I was so healed. I thought I understood, but he’s still actively trying to harm you. By harming your relationships with other people. He’s still actively abusing you.

Felicia: I told everyone the truth. He admitted to it and the divorce was supposed to be in agreement. I wanted to divorce him. I wanted people to know that this is because of his abuse that I’m doing this. He was saying yeah. Now my community is beating me up in the same way I always was.

They’re calling me a liar and I have like this fear now of, I’m a victim! I’m afraid of being like that. But that’s actually what’s happening. I’m another victim, and this time, it’s my whole community.

Anne: None of the abuse you’re experiencing now is convincing you, even more, that it’s abuse.

Therapists for Codependency​ Can’t Replace Community

Anne: You’ve done BTR group sessions. You’ve been to Individual Sessions. So the two things to do now are get more educated about are strategy and how to deal with all the unsafe people around you. And then start praying you can make friends in your area.

People that you’ve never met before. People who know nothing about it to be on your team in your local area. You will find people. And they will be a great support to you. It might take a minute and it might be someone who’s going through it herself right now. It might be someone who you’re actually going to be an answer to her prayer.

That she’s like, I’m going through this too, and I need help. Those are the women who tend to be the most helpful in this situation. You tend to end up supporting each other because we really, really get it. And that’s why Betrayal Trauma Recovery is awesome because there’s nobody here that isn’t on your side.

Felicia: I found a new friend and she started to sound exactly like me a while ago. And so I decided to be for her what I would have wanted. I thought, his might be it. But we’re not really hanging out that much anymore. I was trying to be gentle in case she wanted to stay. I just don’t want her to go not knowing that this might be the answer. It’s not a good way to make friends talking about people’s husbands badly.

Finding The Right Friends When you’re Accused of Codependency in Marriage

Anne: Oh, that’s true. She didn’t realize he was abusive.

Felicia: I was like, do you guys have a good relationship? Is it confusing? Does he ever have any problems? She was answering them all in the red flag sense. So I was like, it might be this, you’re not codependent. She didn’t tell me no. Like, she said like, gosh, I had a feeling I should have been done with him a long time ago. They’re on their second marriage to each other. They already divorced and now they’re married.

Someone told me one time that they thought that my husband was into it. And I was just like, ugh, I did not like hearing that. I was like, No he’s not, You don’t understand. And now years later I’m like, she was right.

Anne: In order to make a true friendship, I feel like being honest is always the best policy. So if you’re like, hey, I feel like this is abuse. And they’re not ready for that for whatever reason. And it offends them and they don’t want to be your friend anymore. Then that’s okay. Maybe they’ll be your friend later.

Because you don’t want a service project. You want a really good friend who you really get each other. If her husband is abusive and she can’t see it. You’re not going to be a good friend to her either because it’s going to be driving you crazy.

Codependency Treatment Centers​ vs. Friendships

Anne: And that’s why professional services are so important. Because friendships really should be an equal thing, not service projects. Our services aren’t service projects. Because if we did them for free, we’d have to get other jobs. And we would not be able to help women, but they’re our job. So getting professional services is totally different than looking for a friend who’s on your level.

She’s almost doing you a favor in some ways because you would have been really annoyed all the time. You know, wait, she’s not seeing it. If she’s telling you clearly abusive things and you’re like, uh, you know it’s not going to be fun for you either.

Codependent Marriage: Spoiler, It’s Not Your Fault

Felicia: And then I’m just gonna build another fake community of a bunch of friends. That I don’t want to tell the truth to, so that’s not good. We don’t want a big group of women deciding that their all codependent. Yeah, I can see that being honest with people, and hopefully friendships will follow.

Anne: I think that you will. It’s just a hard time. Have faith and be yourself and stay true to who you are. And things will work out eventually. I’m so sorry that you’re going through that right now. That is so hard. You’re amazing.

Felicia: Thank you so much for being beautiful.

Anne: You’re amazing, you’re incredible, you’re strong, things are complex.

you’re The Opposite of Codependent

Anne: A lot of people don’t like me because I say their husband is abusive. Not because I know him personally, not because I’m trying to hurt their marriage. But because objectively the behaviors she is describing are checking the boxes. That any domestic abuse services would say, yes, this is abuse.

That’s it. We’re not making abuse out of nothing. We don’t even know the people. We’re just saying, Okay, this is abuse. Also, we’re not giving any excuses for it.

Maybe he does have a brain lesion. Maybe he does have PTSD from when he served in Iraq. But that doesn’t mean it’s not abuse to you.

It doesn’t mean that it’s okay that you’re being abused. So, the reasons don’t matter why you’re being abused. The thing that matters is you’re being harmed. And it’s not your fault, you don’t deserve to be harmed. You don’t deserve to be harmed because someone has labeled you codependent.

Felicia: You’re right, and I’m not gonna feel sorry for spreading that message. I want women to not be harmed in their relationships. And I shouldn’t feel bad about not wanting that. I don’t want that for myself either, which I forget about myself. But yeah, I don’t want myself to be harmed.

Anne: But it is a lonely place sometimes, it’s just such a hard road and you don’t have to do it alone. We’re here for you, Felicia, and we’re here for all women going through this.

Why Codependency Counselors​ Won’t Help

Anne: All I want to do is educate women about abuse so that they would know what they were facing. So they would have information. They could make the decisions. That they aren’t going to be blamed for being codependent.

They want to make them and get to safety and we can support them in doing that. And then once they feel stable and safe and that they have friends in their area. Then we’re like, We’re so glad we were here for you when you needed us. And we wish you the best of luck.

We’re here again if you need us again. Unlike 12 step or even religion that’s like you can’t leave. You know, you have to stay in 12 step or you’ll do it. We’re like, there’s nothing wrong with you you’re not codependent. You’re amazing. We’re just here to support you through a very difficult time.

And then when you’re stable and you feel good and you feel like, Oh, I’ve got friends we’re like, yay. We love you. You’re going to do great. You’re brave, strong and incredible.

codependency vs love​ Isn’t The Issue

Anne: Well, thank you so much, Felicia, for sharing your story. I really appreciate it.

Felicia: Thank you so much. I can do this.

Anne: You can, thanks for helping me get the word out that you are not codependent. You’re doing great. Talk to you soon.

Felicia: Bye