I Asked DemystifySci How the Tic Tac Could Work | Anastasia Bendebury & Shilo DeLay

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1:01We look down and the Wizzle and the other airplane comes up and says, Hey Skipper, do you? That's about what he gets out of his mouth and I'm kind of looking at the same thing. I go, dude, do you see that? What is that thing? What we see is this white tic-tac looking object just above the surface of the water, pointing north-south and it's going north-south east-west. It's just radically moving forward-back left-right at will and it's moving around the disturbance, the white water that we see. How big is this thing? Over time it's about 40 feet long and the way I estimate that is, I mean I got a lot of time fighting other airplanes so it's about a lot size of a hornet. Puseless, that's what you say 40 feet. These tic-tacs are able to screw with the way that mass plays with the rest of the universe. If these turnouts be real craft doing incredible maneuvers, there's going to be a very easy to understand mechanical basis for it once you reframe the way you're thinking about the atomic world and light and gravity as the products of that interconnection.

2:07This later, welcome to Later Files. In the 2004 Nimitz tic-tac incident, season navy radar operator Kevin Day reported objects initially in space and then saw them dropping from 28,000 feet down the sea level in less than a second. While pilots David Fraver in Alex Dietrich had a direct visual encounter, there was no boom, there was no heat, no explosion, there was nothing. And every answer I hear about this is it's either aliens or it's some camera glitch or camera glare. I think both of those answers are lazy. So I asked two physicists, doctors Anastasia Bendaberry and Shilah Delay run Demystify Si. And they just put out this book, Paradox Lost, the material principles of natural philosophy.

3:13I read it and recommend it actually. So here's what I asked, is there a material answer for the five observables? Is there a material reason or even a possibility, a speculation of what the tic-tac could be using to do the crazy things it does? I think a couple of their answers are going to bother some people. So let's go. There's no obvious propulsion system on the tic-tac, right? It's not like it's got thrusters, it doesn't really look like an airplane, it doesn't have wings, there's no jet engines. And so it kind of tells you that if it is flying around the way that it appears inside of all of these videos, it's doing something very, very different than the way that we build propulsion systems. And the lack of sonic boom might actually have something to do with that. So, okay,

4:14when we talk about anti-gravity propulsion or we talk about these really exotic forms of vengeance, I think that there's a sense that it might be some kind of anti-gravity system, right? So if you're not subject to gravity, if you're not subject to inertia, then you're capable of performing the kinds of motions that are seen on this video where it goes from C level to what, like, 30,000 feet in almost no time. Do you think that that would, like, I think that's definitely somewhere we should go, but do you think that that would rescue you from the aerodynamic structure? I think that it does. Because, okay, so if the aerodynamic structure has to do with drag, it means that you're interacting with the atoms around you. If you have some capacity for your propulsion to work by disconnecting you from the local region of the gravitational field, then it seems like it would also disconnect you from whatever interactions you're having with the

5:14air around you. And if you're not interacting with the air, the same way that you're not interacting with the gravitational influence, I feel like you would end up without having a sonic boom. I don't see in that. I don't see in that. Because you think that there's no way to avoid pushing the atoms around? Yeah, I think I do want to, I do like this model for the super sonic anti-inertial emotions and everything. But I think the air is still a problem. I think displacing the air is still a problem that has to be dealt with on its face. But, and in some sense, I wish we'd started with how and the hell this thing goes from 0 to a million miles an hour or whatever, and changes right angles. Because if we had that model, which is what I think you're hinting at, which I think is really interesting, it might get us closer to understanding how you modify the slipstream around the aircraft, which is what I was trying to point out, that air has to be modified in such a way that it's less viscous, essentially. And I think that's

6:15possible if we start to examine the means by which the craft is disconnecting from the inertial gravitational system, which I think has real physical bones to it. I think there's meat on that hypothesis, for sure. Yeah, if we look at the five observables. So that's from Elizondo, the famous five observables. The first one is sudden instantaneous acceleration. So kind of what you mentioned there. And, and favor when he first sees this thing, it's over the water. And what he says is it's bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball. So he said, it didn't seem to have inertia, like you mentioned, and it stays there. That like a helicopter, you know, it'll, it goes one direction and then it slows. And then you see it turn the other way as in inertia, whereas this just was like bouncing around. Almost like you mentioned like like a like a holographic projection. And that is what a lot of people have argued is that there's something

7:15under the water, like maybe a submarine has some sort of technology, laser technology where it can produce a very realistic 3D holographic image. Then they resurrect two pock for the for the Grammys or something at some point. Yeah, we could even talk about that first. Is it a hologram or is it real? And that is an argument. So that is Professor Simon, right? He was going to go to Demisticon last year, but he didn't make it. That's his argument. Is that this is some sort of advanced defense technology where they can make a holographic image with some sort of laser tech, right? It was interesting. Like right around the time this came out, my dad actually sent me a story. I think it was from Forbes. I'd have to go dig it up for you later. Not even the Wall Street Journal. Wall Street Journal. It was some mainstream newspaper. And it was a defense article about this new technology, which was supposed to do just that. Like it was basically a holographic heat signature

8:20that was supposed to be used as a decoy for you know, aeronautic combat essentially. Didn't specify any of the qualities. You know, the visual stuff is a little trickier to reconcile. This was purely talking about some defense contractor developing a heat signature based illusion. And of course, you have right. So you have the visuals of this thing going in and out of the water. There's problems with it, which is kind of why I started with like, well, let's assume it for the purposes of this conversation that it isn't a hologram. But they didn't see this go underwater. But the big thing for me is yeah, the visual like you mentioned and all the different types of radar contacts. So that's what that's why it's the gold standard because you got so many different spectrum that they observed it. So they saw it with radar from the Aegis cruiser. And they they have like a space radar essentially that looks for missiles, right? So there's a lot of anti ship missiles or just anti or ballistic missiles, right? They go up into space essentially and then come down. And these Aegis cruisers have these they have like I believe Patriots on them

9:25or a version of Navy version of a Patriot, etc. So they they track these ballistic missiles actually coming down. So they they initially track these objects. But there was multiple of them up and up in space. So that's where you get the 80,000 foot number. Because I think that is the limit actually of their tracking radar. So 80,000 feet. Then you get the radar from the F18s. Later on. And so that's a that's a like nine gigahertz roughly a radar, you know, pretty high high frequency radar fighter radar. That picks it up. And then they see it visually and they see it with the infrared. That's the famous video. So really that's why it has so many of the spectrums to where like you mentioned could you do a hologram? I don't know, you know, possibly, but to do all of the spectrums I think would be really difficult. I don't see us having that especially back in 2004. It would definitely be extremely high tech situation that was well ahead of our understanding.

10:33But there's some precedent for that. I mean, if I was in government, I would definitely want to have that technology. Yeah. Because it was possible. And I was trying to, you know, make sure that I could freak people out really badly from a distance. Wouldn't that kind of be the gold standard technology that I would want to have? Especially if you're fighting drums swarms in this like next gen warfare. It's like if you could have them go after something that wasn't actually there. And I don't know, there it seems like it's something it would be insane if they weren't developing it. Like I would be worried about the defense department if they weren't working on something like that. But that's not to say that that's what this was either. I mean, I think both values are worth exploring. You know, I'm not in the military anymore and just just disclaimer, I'm not speaking on behalf of any government agency, etc. Me neither. Just for myself. But as far as I know, that technology doesn't exist now. Right. And this was 22 years ago. If you're enjoying this show, please hit the like button, consider subscribing and thank you

11:34to Vince Canali who joined this month. There's no sponsors on this channel. It runs on people like Vince. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot deals at Vons and Albertsons. This week, Signature select drumsticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with membership were applicable. And Alpharos, Artsasano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsouralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. This week, Signature select drumsticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with

12:52membership were applicable. And Alpharos, Artsasano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsouralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot deals at vonsouralbertons. This week, Signature select drumsticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with membership were applicable. And Alpharos,

13:55Artsasano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsouralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. The other reason I don't think it could be a holographic image is it folds... It folds all the pilots there. They all saw a Dietrich, she's gone on 60 minutes and seen it. There were several pilots and Wizos, at least four that were there close. But Fraver got within 3,000 feet of it. And in a fighter, that's really close actually. So the minimum you can really get is the minimum minimum 500 feet. Inside of that, you can't fight someone inside a 500 feet for training rules and out to a 1000 feet. So 3000 is really close. And they fooled him. And he was a top-gun graduate. So he's literally the top of his game. He's the fighter squadron commander. He's like the best that we have essentially.

15:00And so he said it was like a tick-tock and gave a very clear description. So that's why it's the gold standard. And just so we nail down that, I don't think it is a hologram. I think it actually is some sort of crazy craft. Cool. Yeah. So yeah, go ahead. Well, no, I was just... I think that it's interesting because since we do have the infrared reading off of it, it doesn't seem like it was that hot. And so whatever it's doing to the air around it isn't generating like the conventional heat signature. So even if it's changing the viscosity of the medium, it's not radiating it away the same way that you would expect some hot object to be doing it. So the effects are local. There's some kind of regional bubble around it where if it's affecting, it's a funny thing though, right? Like it's an average measurement. So if you had a really thin atomic layer slipstream, it might average out to the point that you don't

16:04notice it. Like there's no way of actually knowing how fast an individual atom is going in a test to, but you can take the average motion of all of them and call it temperature. But also like the infrared... So okay, infrared signals come from heated solid bodies. And I think that we need to take a step back a little bit and talk about the context in which we think about light and gravity, right? Which is that if you go into like a quantum mechanic standard description, what do you get? You kind of get that there's like electromagnetic fields. There's the gravitational field. You have this mathematical distribution of how strong the gravitational field is going to be somewhere. And so you can kind of calculate how much propulsion you need for the rocket equation in order to escape the gravity well. And then if you're talking about light, it's just kind of this... It's an excitation of the electromagnetic field. And when we're talking about a material model for understanding gravity, a material model for understanding light, we have to

17:07talk about it in pretty different language than the way that we talk about it in standard quantum mechanics, which is not to say that the concepts are different. And the question that we have is like, is there a way to understand these phenomena from a material standpoint and then use that understanding of the material standpoint to be able to explain things that are not yet explainable? And this infrared heat signature I think is really important and interesting. It is. I think it might be worth even going back to, you know, you introduced us as physicists at the beginning of the show. We're actually biophysicists by training. So we did our PhDs in biophysics, which is a really... It might seem kind of jarring like, why the hell are these biophysists talking about quantum mechanics? But I think we're in a kind of unique position to make progress in that field because the world we come from is looking at the magic of biology, things that don't make sense in the biological world. And then looking at the material structures that can unveil those mysteries.

18:11So we're looking at how the individual molecules pull and push on each other inside of cellular structures inside maybe even how water is structured to do tensile processes like how the hell does dandelion open itself up in the morning, right? It's pretty wild. I mean, the things not doing the kind of processes that you're used to in everyday life because there's these little subunits that are out of sight, these little atoms and molecules that are actually bumping and pulling on each other. And so we... When we approached quantum mechanics after grad school, we were thinking the same way. We're like, well, of course, there's going to be a material basis for the mechanics behind light and gravity and everything else. And we were kind of naively stunned to realize that nobody was even trying that and hadn't been trying it for over a hundred years. So the approach we're taking isn't in any way radical. It's literally the way that all other scientists in the hard sciences work already, right? You look for mechanical solutions to problems. Camus do it,

19:12biologists do it, biophysicists do it. It's this one little corner of science, which is fundamental physics, mathematical physics, that has somehow escaped this hallmark of what we've considered science for hundreds of years. So we're just trying to bring that back into the discussion of these things like light and gravity. So it's very difficult for us to analyze this without really getting on the same page that gravity points to atoms being tethered to each other light points to some deformation, some waves in whatever is connecting them to each other. And so that's kind of the background from which we're going to approach this problem as we move forward. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot deals at Vons and Albert Sins. This week, signature select drum sticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with membership were applicable. And Alpharos, Artsasano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandarin for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious

20:16savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsoralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. It's Fall in America. Make it Count at the Ram Drive into Fall sales event. Make it powerful with our strongest Ram 1500 ever. Make it move with the Ram Heavy Duty with an available Cummins diesel and make it go the distance with a 10 year or 100,000 mile powertrain limited warranty. Hurry in now for great deals during the Ram Drive into Fall sales event. Excludes fully electric vehicles applied to 2026 model year vehicles non-transferable. Visit Moepar.com for complete details and a copy of the powertrain limited warranty. Come into the register trademark of Cummins Inc. Ram and Hammer are registered trademarks of FCA US LLC. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot deals at Vons and Albert Sins. This week, signature select drum sticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with membership were applicable. And Alpharos, Archesano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious

21:17savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsoralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. It's Fall in America. Make it Count at the Ram Drive into Fall sales event. Make it powerful with our strongest Ram 1500 ever. Make it move with the Ram Heavy Duty with an available Cummins Diesel. Make it go the distance with a 10 year or 100,000 mile powertrain limited warranty. Hurry in now for great deals during the Ram Drive into Fall sales event. Excludes fully electric vehicles applied to 2026 model year vehicles non-transferable. Visit Moepar.com for complete details and a copy of the powertrain limited warranty. Come into the register trademark of Cummins Inc. Ram and Hammer are registered trademarks of FCA US LLC. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot deals at Vons and Albert Sins. This week, signature select drumsticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with membership were applicable. And Alpharos, Artsasano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious

22:18savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsoralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. And the infrared heat signature of the Tic Tac not being hot. And Shiloh's idea that, okay, well, maybe it's somehow changing the viscosity of the air around it is kind of interesting because it tells you a couple things. It tells you number one that whatever this is does maintain some connection to everything else around it because how else could you be able to see it? How else would you be able to even detect any kind of heat signature? The other thing that it tells you is that whatever change in the viscosity of the air that's happening around it is local. It's local because you would not see super heated air like in the same way that you would see the outline of the body. And I wonder if

23:26this isn't why the images are so fuzzy because you're seeing this kind of like shell of heated substance around the Tic Tac. Because literally being an atom thicker, a couple of atoms. Yeah, exactly. And then basically generating this shield around it so that it's able to behave inside of a bubble. And as it moves, it pulls that bubble with it. I think we, yeah, I mean, we think we need to make the case that there is atomic connection and that the solution to achieving these kind of motions would be to disconnect from that web essentially. But we can get to that whenever you're ready. Just one point that I thought interesting as well is when they went to try and track the Tic Tac. So David Fraver, he sees the Tic Tac with his eyes. The Tic Tac shoots off like a bullet, they said, right? No, there was no like shock wave that they could see. It's hard to hear a sonic boom inside the jet, but there was nothing recorded.

24:33But either way, just instantaneously shoots off like a bullet. So when he landed, he told his, I believe he was the exo at the time, Chad Underwood, to what happened? Hey, there's this crazy thing out there, go and get it on video. And so that's when they launched in the second F 18. And they were able to pick it up on radar, but just like a few hits. So it was responding to the radar, but it was squirrely, right? They were just, they couldn't lock it. But when they did get close and track it with the infrared, the infrared is a passive sensor, right? So they couldn't lock it with an active radar. They had to lock it with a passive sensor. But what they were getting from when they did shoot the radar at it was indications that there's radar jamming. And so what, when is your, I was electronic attack that was one of my jobs? You're going to get an indication of jamming when the signal has been weirdly modulated,

25:34right? That's why they would jam, you know, to take your signal and screw up the velocity on it. So just to kind of support your idea that there's some weird layer going on is the radar energy was getting modified somehow. That's really interesting. Yeah, I think that, you know, maybe sci-fi has taken the lead on this for many years, but I think everyone's on the same page that if we're going to actually explore other star systems, that burning stuff and pushing ourselves forward that way is not going to be very promising, right? It's just too slow. You know, the physicists, we always talk about the speed of light being the fundamental limitation for motion. And that comes from a number of revelations about the way that bodies move under observation and the way that light is transmitted and received.

26:34The question is, can you get outside of that network? And so I think it's worth making the case for why there's a speed of light, first of all. And then maybe from there, we can think about how you would get around that limitation. It doesn't even mean you have to go through speed of light. Nothing can even go close at this point in terms of material constructions here on Earth, right? So, you know, how do you even approach those sorts of speeds? Why is the speed, why is there a speed of light? That's a really interesting question. I mean, you want to take that one? Well, I mean, it isn't some way as easy because if you look at waves in any material, there is an equation that governs the speed that the wave will travel. So, the velocity of the wave is equal to the square root of the stiffness divided by the density of the medium. You can change stiffness to tension and density to like linear mass density. And so,

27:39that's a little bit nerdy. But if you think about something like a guitar string, it's kind of a perfect example. You have the string and you take it out and you put it on the guitar. And before you start to tune it, you can pluck it and it has a really, really low tone to it. It's going to be really wobbly. And as you increase the tension on it, you stretch the string. And as you increase the tension enough, the pitch goes up and up and up and up until finally it is whatever it is, the tone of the string that it's supposed to be. And the tone of the string is directly related to the speed of the wave in the string. And so, you can extend this to all waves in all mediums. Sometimes you have to change the parameters that you use for stiffness, slash tension, and density versus linear mass density. But at the end of the day, there's a very strong fixed relationship for wave speed in a medium. And so, what that tells us is that if light

28:39is a wave, and I don't think that anybody argues that light is not a wave, you can go down the path of, well, it's a wave particle. And it does these weird things. And I'm like, yeah, but I think that that's not really, that doesn't change it. Because when we talk about wave particle, what we're really talking about is that we detect it in this particular way, because we need to have some kind of discrete event happen for us to be able to see the light. But as it travels, it travels as a wave always. And that's actually a special kind of wave. It's called a transverse wave, which is exactly the kind of wave in your guitar string, too. It's that back and forth motion, right? Absolutely. And so it basically tells us that the speed of light is likely the speed of the medium. It is the speed limit of how fast a deformation wave can travel through this medium. Yeah. And by meeting you just, you just mean whatever is between the sensor and the emitter, right? And this kind of comes back to the idea that like everything has to be connected. And so

29:42if we're talking about light and we're talking about gravity alone, like let's set those, let's kind of put those in one category and then electricity magnetism we can put into a different category because they don't. Let's call them a special case. Yeah, they're special cases. They behave in different ways. They have different equations that describe them. And they, like light and gravity working in this way that has this speed limit and has a radio distribution to it, which is that it like, you know, the intensity falls off as you travel farther and farther away from the source. In modern physics, it's like, what we have is we have the field and the field tells us the strength of how the effect will fall off. And our case is like, that's really, that's true. Number one, but number two, it must be telling us something about the underlying connection between the atoms. And if the atoms are actually connected to one another, then all of the sudden you have a medium that allows for the exchange of light and allows for the maintenance of gravity

30:45because now you have a way for the atoms to actually hold on to each other. Now you have a way for the atoms to actually communicate with each other. And hold on a minute about that. And so if we're trying to explain exotic behavior of strange objects, and what we're trying to explain is we're trying to explain how does this network that connects these atoms to each other get modified in ways that allow it to perform these strange actions? It sounds a little bit radical, but it's actually extremely mainstream perspective because everybody already understands the surface of the atom is this thing called the electron. They often modeled as a cloud, right? So people already understand that the atom has this extended structure to it. And they've, you know, it's very pixelated the way that people think about it right now. We're just saying like, obviously the atom has some material structure and obviously these things are able to extend to a great distance. So you don't need to posit some sort of special ether stuff or, you know, what it's just not necessary. The atoms themselves have the extended structure necessary to connect them to one another and explain

31:49the tensile process is the pull of gravity and the push of light, right? Those are already baked into the fundamental understanding of the atom. It just has to be reframed a tiny bit. Yeah, we basically just, we're just saying that maybe a better way to think about the atom is not as having a cloud, but as being kind of furry on the surface, right? It has some sort of actual fabric extension to it that abays all the same, you know, dynamics that everyone's comfortable with. It abays this inverse square dynamic very smartly. It's just a slight reframing that gives you a material basis to understand these invisible phenomena. And once we start thinking about things that way, all of these paradoxes vanish. And I think that if these turn out to be real craft doing incredible maneuvers, there's going to be a very easy to understand mechanical basis for it. Once you reframe the way you're thinking about the atomic world and light and gravity as products of that interconnection. It's fall in America. Make it count at the RAM drive into

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34:55Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire. Try them all only at McDonald's. Well, that's a really cool story of how that happened. I mean, it took almost a hundred years for us to get to this point. And it's really understandable once you start peeling back the layers of the abandonment of the search for material understanding about these invisible phenomena. And once you see how the project got interested in really refining existing understandings about electricity and magnetism, I mean, this Zoom meeting we're doing, everything about our modern world is really this stepwise refinement about pretty basic observations. It didn't require people to ask these deeper questions. And they got very comfortable with and very, very successful by just manipulating the parameterization of those devices, right, through mathematics. It was very, very profitable. But it sidelined the project of the

35:58actual science underpinning what was happening. And this is something we spend half the book basically making the case that there's a reasonable narrative as to how we got to the point that this hasn't been sawed to me. I can't tell you how many times Nostan and I were sitting around like really, why are we the first people to write this book? This is insane. This book should have been written ten times over in the last century. But for some reason, and it's not a mystery anymore, but there's good reasons why people were working on other stuff instead. And so, you know, if we're going to actually be forced to confront something that those approaches don't satisfy by way of an explanation, then we have to think about things a little differently. And I think that there's an interesting break in the way that we have to think about physics when it comes to explaining things that are really exotic, right? So as you were talking and you were telling this story about the history of physics, what I was thinking about is I was thinking about how, okay, so imagine that

37:03you could take some set of this technology back to, I don't know, the year 1000 and you're like run into some medieval peasant and you turn on zoom and magically like zoom works and you're like, okay, you know how you had this relative that you saw last when you were, you know, 10 years old, we have a device where you can see them on the screen and you can talk to them. On the other side of the fjord. And the other side of the fjord, yeah. And so, you know, you run the zoom call between these two medieval peasants and what would be their frame for understanding it? Literally nothing. Like gods, demons, magic, probably black magic, you have a shiny black tablet and inside of it lives this version of their relative. And now we have models where we can say, okay, well, there's like, there's these electromagnetic waves and there's these little electrons that like bounce around inside and that model is like pretty good. It's good enough in order to be able to build the stuff, right? Because you couldn't build it really without even that rudimentary model.

38:06And it's good enough for me to be able to sit down and kind of explain in sketched out terms how something like zoom works. But if we're trying to explain something that to us is the same distance, like if we're trying to explain something that is the same distance from us that zoom would be from the medieval peasant, then we probably are missing some kind of frame for being able to even think about what's happening because we have built what we can build with the models that we have. Like this is it. Like, yeah, you have machines that can think and you can type in Will Smith eating spaghetti to a video generation model and you'll get like a decent video of Will Smith eating spaghetti. But in order to explain something truly exotic, I think you have to move into this next phase to say, okay, perhaps we have a truly exotic model for understanding one level beyond where we are right now. And that's what lets us piece the story together. I also think that there's this idea

39:10that the scientists think is really hard alone. Like, there's this the science idol, like Einstein just doing this thought experiment in his head and then he comes up with this amazing breakthrough. And then from that, we create all these amazing technologies and devices. But I think if you look back in history, that's not really how it went, right? You had like Faraday, all the you know, the people really just by messing with things, you know, in the physical world found these anomalies and then we're able to create the theories that ended up explaining the anomalies. And that's why I've been so I guess, you know, crazy or whatever about the UAPs is there's all these anomalies that we could be learning from and it seems like at least it seems to be changing, but in the past 80 years, so mainstream science would just ignore the data points and just say, well, that didn't happen. It's like, well, how do you explain the

40:14tick-tech incident? You know, like there's a lot of data and they still just, you know, kind of ignored or maybe now they'll come around and say maybe UAPs are real. But I don't think science has necessarily progressed society. If you look at AI, I mean, they didn't even really understand that GPUs would be the breakthrough, you know, in these technology emerges and people like to think that some scientists has a discovery and then that immediately leads to technology. It's often a lot of stumbling and engineering, it's a lot of people just tinkering with things and observing some effect, you know, the first stage of science obviously is taking inventory of what's happening. So they got that part down, but oftentimes, like, I don't know, the worst examples, really interesting actually, you were talking about that yesterday. It is. Okay, and I was actually thinking about how different it is in kind from UAP stuff. Okay, so there's a guy who in,

41:14I don't remember, I'm so bad with dates, 1800s at some point, probably early 1800s, who finally realizes that you can take a magnetized compass needle and put it next to a current carrying wire and that the needle is going to deflect. It takes people a really long time to figure this out, I think mostly because the wires aren't very good and they aren't getting really high current, and so the deflections are very small and take some forever to figure out that this is actually happening. But this is in some ways a like, domestic phenomenon, if I can say that it is a terrestrial phenomenon. You can pull a load stone out of the earth, it'll be magnetized. Electricity is like a little bit weirder, but at the very least you have lightning, so it's some kind of frame in which you're operating where these phenomena have been with you for a really long time, and now you're just trying to figure out what it is that they actually are. UAPs are really wildly different because this is a, if they are truly extraterrestrial,

42:19they're not just some kind of secret government program that's producing it, it's not some kind of weird holograph that's figured out how to give, you know, a nine-gigger hurts signal on radar and also an infrared signal. If this truly is extraterrestrial technology, then it marks the first time in history that we have a completely alien phenomenon that needs to be explained and does not come already nested into our tree of explanations. And that's pretty crazy because everything else before this point has just been kind of something that's around us all the time and we have to explain it. But like the zoom meeting with the medieval peasants, you know, you could be like, yeah, there's lightning inside of this thing and we're manipulating the lightning. Like it is something they're familiar with. It's just the degree of sophistication required to manipulate that lightning is totally beyond their comprehension and I feel like that is what we have to be facing if this is indeed a physical craft moving about in the atmosphere of the

43:22earth. There is one example in a stage that I said in the last video actually of an extraterrestrial hypothesis and it was for meteorites. So for up until the I want to again the date of Miss In the date 1860s I believe every a lot happened 1860. I believe it was then when the meteorites happen we'll look up in the break. So the first systematic scientific argument for meteorites and the extraterrestrial hypothesis was in 1794 and that was from German physicist Ernst Chladney. He compiled historical fireball and fall reports and he measured the incredible speeds that these things had and implied by those observations that these stones and irons must be cosmic bodies plunging through the atmosphere and heating up.

44:25A short book was widely ridiculed. It contradicted two centuries of accepted physics. But then you had several falls, big meteorite falls in quick succession. There was Italy in 1794. You have Wold Cottage this place here in England in 1795. You had France, India. So some of these leading scientists started changing their minds. And then the final nail in the coffin was in April 1803 that's near Lila in Normandy in France. There was a huge fall 3000 objects in an area of 10 kilometers by four kilometers. So no one was hurt but the villagers went and collected the pieces immediately. The French government sent 29-year-old physicist John Baptiste Biot to investigate. He went to the local quarries to analyze the rocks there and then he was able to prove that these

45:27stones were foreign. And they had a bunch of people say all these things fell from the sky, right? And so he went there like a mass sighting of a UAP. It was a UAP. It's unexplained aerial phenomena or anomalous phenomena. And interviewed everybody. And they were all different social classes. So that was actually when they proved extraterrestrial hypothesis for meteorites. So that's actually something really profound that links back to something else I was thinking of, which is that science operates really well when it can do statistics. Science doesn't do one-offs. At all. Like it can't. It cannot handle a thing that is unique. It feels really well if you can have a reproducible phenomena. If we had tick-tax every single day and they were just buzzing all over cities and you could set up a camera and catch them and then put up a bunch of detectors and like really figure it out. I think that science probably would turn towards it. But the problem

46:28is that the observations are so lumpy. The tick-tax example is the one that's best characterized. There's lots of other sightings, but a kind of random, there's no really, really good footage of any of them. It's a thing that happens somewhere far from the laboratory, far from the tools of observation. We're kind of stuck until it becomes something that you can see. There has to be a craft that lands somewhere and little green men get out of it and start shaking people's hands. And then at that point I think science is going to be like, okay, there's definitely something here we should do. We should start with something. Yeah, at that point you made an R-podcast before to about people seeing life through a microscope and then taking 200 years for them to believe their eyes is I think emblematic. Yeah, the paradigms take a long time to change.

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48:29Toyota's easy choice sales event is on. Whether you're looking for the performance of the camera, the versatility of Rav4, the efficiency of a Corolla or all electric driving in the BZ, there's a Toyota that's just right for you. And with great deals across the lineup, now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event and soon. We make it easy. Toyota, let's go places. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot deals at Vons and Albertzons. This week, Signature Select Drumsticks or Thighs, Bone-in Value Packs are 99 cents per pound with membership where applicable. And Alpharos Artisano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsouralbertzons.com for more deals and ways to save.

49:30McDonald's is putting value back on the menu. Whether you're craving a big mac, McNuggets are sausage egg and cheese McGrittle's, make it a meal and save. Your favorite is now your wallet's favorite too. Extra value meals are back. Sun rises, prices fall, get a sausage McMuffin with egg or sausage egg and cheese McGrittle's small hot coffee and hash frowns for just six dollars. Price and participation may vary, promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing. And that's the argument because the big argument in the UAP community and we have many whistle blowers are saying that actually the government does have the hard evidence, but they are keeping it locked up. And if you look back in history, governments have always done that. You know, there there's really no benefit. If it's true, which many whistle blowers and people say that the government, the whole alien hypothesis is true and they actually have hard evidence,

50:33there's no benefit to the governments to actually share that information. No, there's a lot of precedents of governments being scared of what they've learned and sitting on. Like, my favorite example is, say the Russian word. So the Russians, you might have seen this too, but they had, there's this experiment you can watch it on YouTube where somebody takes a wingnut in the space station and flips it and it rolls off of the threaded threading. And then as it's going, it's spinning, it's just a regular wingnut. And at some point, it just reverses direction and it keeps spinning off. And this turns out to be a completely reproducible effect. You can do this when you have a lopsided object, they call it like the tennis racket effect. Possibly intermediate access theorem. Exactly. But the Russians discovered this and they sat on it for 10 years before telling the rest of the world because they were thoroughly convinced that this was a possibility for their earth itself. They thought if the earth is in any way lopsided

51:36that the spinning object in space could very easily invert periodically. And what year was this discovery? He was in the seven. If it was like prior to the fall of the Soviet Union, because you always tell the story and he's always like, okay, the Russians were really afraid that this might happen to the earth and they didn't want to panic anybody. And in the back of my mind, I'm always like, are you sure that they weren't trying to figure out how they can use it as a weapon? I'm sure somebody was trying to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we should go check it out again. It's the story I always tell when I teach astronomy because it's really wacky. So I've been rehearsing this story for like four years. So I may have lost some of the facts on the way, but the basic idea is there that governments certainly don't want to freak people out because their whole job is to ensure order essentially. And so why freak people out if there's nothing you can do about it? But it's not just to ensure order. I think it's also to be able to monopolize the technology because it's like if you discover something crazy that nobody knows,

52:41and you're a superpower, I mean, come on, your first thought is I'm going to weaponize this. I'm going to figure out how to use this in order to get some kind of mode that ensures my survival and ensures that those losers don't make it. No, they're present. Well, and just for normal advantage, that's one of the other arguments, you know, where did lasers come from semiconductors, the famous conspiracy theory, if you will, is for nightnull, if you actually add nickel to make an alloy metal alloy, now you can have bendable metal that holds shape. And that came out right after a Roswell essentially by a lab right down the street from Wright Patterson Air Force Base where they allegedly took the Roswell materials. So that would be another reason is to gain a huge advantage. If you know, and they don't, then it's a huge advantage. And the famous example I like is I live in

53:42Portugal. And the Portuguese were the first to learn how to go around the tip of Africa. You go way out west. And that's, which is weird. You wouldn't think you go way out west. They tried for like hundreds of years to go right down the coast of Africa on the west side. Right. I guarantee they didn't share any of that information because immediately like overnight, Portugal became the by far the richest country in Europe immediately. They were right away the richest. And then you can just look back. It's a really interesting story, the whole thing. They just they just pillaged, pillaged India that whole area every year. They were they were terrible. But as soon as the other powers learned how to do that, you can just look at the fall of Portugal like as an empire. It just completely fell. As soon as that information got out, they they peaked. So there's no benefit. If it's true in the US has all of these craft,

54:45there's no way they're ever going to release it is my argument. I think that's what we're seeing. And so I think we primed the pump with the audience. And now just trying to get into some better idea of could this even be possible? Because again, the only explanation that I've really seen at all for tic-tac like effects where you have instantaneous motion, right, with with no inertia. You have hypersonic propulsion, no sonic booms, there's no heat buildup like you said, and you don't see any exhaust, right? And then we also have positive lifts. So basically, anti-gravity. Balloons actually do that a lot. So the number one mundane explanation for balloons. It used to be swamp gas, but now it's actually balloons. So anti-gravity and then transmitting travel for the tic-tac. It comes from space through the air. You could call that transmitting travel, I think most would consider through water or even rock. We've heard some transmitting cases like that. And then finally,

55:49low observability. So is any ideas thinking out of the box that could possibly explain any of these things? I don't think we actually ever answered your previous question about Navier Stokes as the problem. Should we do you want to just ditch that or is it worth it or should we? Because what do you have on Navier Stokes? I think we just sprouted up as an example where AI might be making progress. And you asked this question right before the break. And Nastya has a lot of thoughts on it, but if you want to cut the whole thing. But I think that it can lead us directly back to this question. Okay. So the question that you asked, before the break, was you asked if we had been paying attention to the fact that AI seems to be solving these open mathematical problems where it has finally provided a solution for the Navier Stokes equation. And this has been this long-standing challenge where it's like a very, very attractively difficult problem to solve computationally very intense. And it seems like the newest Chatchype T model, I think it's Astra,

56:56finally, softened. And immediately after this announcement, there was a really interesting drama that started to play out where these two researchers that had been working on Navier Stokes in the background and had been using Chatchype T's codex in order to run simulations discovered that the approach that open AI used to solve Navier Stokes was exactly their approach. They had come up with some novel approach. They had not managed to fully crunch all of the numbers because again, it's computationally very intense and therefore if you're using AI very expensive. And they actually met with open AI and they were like, were you guys using our Chats as like the seed for your solution? And open AI was basically like, you don't want to go down that path. That's not going to be good for your career if you keep pushing us on this. And the guy was like, I'll

57:56torch my career. I'm an academic mathematician. What are you guys doing? You seem to have taken everything that we had worked on and then used that as the seed and thrown hundreds of thousands if not a million dollars at the computational side of it and then completed the calculations that we started. And so this kind of comes back to what I was saying earlier which is that, okay, so you have one story which is that the AI's are these massively powerful computational machines that can outthink humans and they're really like AGI is here. They can see things that we could never see. And then on the other hand, you have the other story, the competing story which says that no, no, the insight into solving Navier Stokes came from the minds of these two mathematicians realized the correct approach and foolishly thinking that their codex sessions codex is the programming side of chat GPT. So if you're trying to use it to build the simulator, you would

58:58use codex because it's just optimized for producing programs. If you haven't used it, it's incredible. It can make anything that you want. And some things are very computational expensive like solving Navier Stokes. And so because Chatiook Open AI had access to all those logs, it was able to use them to then complete the work that they had started and didn't credit them. And so what we were talking about at the beginning is like, okay, can the AI with its massive corpus of human knowledge actually be able to make the next step towards thinking about something in a truly novel way? And all along, I have said, no, it can't. And so all of the crazy math proofs and everything else that we've seen, to me, seem like they are completions of something that humans have started, but have either lost enthusiasm or attention or just didn't have the like computational ability to carry through. And so all of these loose ends are being picked up right now, solved, resolved, being put out there's evidence of what these AI can do.

1:00:01But if this Navier Stokes proof actually bears out is the in the way that the story is being presented, it suggests that you have to have a new frame for thinking about things that is only provided for by people in order to push the AI to the next level. And so that circles us back to this question of the UAP stuff. And if we're trying to explain these five observables, you know, anti-gravity, the sudden acceleration, a hypersonic speed, the low observability, the transmittium travel, the only way that the AI are going to be able to do it and reproduce it and make something useful is if we first, not like we specifically, though I think that we do have a model that works, humans have to come up with the model for thinking about this. And then once we have that model, then we unlock the next level of actually being able to do something with it using the enormous computational power of the device. Maybe not like models, maybe not the way we're but like a framework and approach, right? That was what happened with the Navier Stokes team,

1:01:05right? They had a attack, they had some strategy that they were employing that that was then picked up on and executed by the robots. And what are the main thing we're claiming with this work that we've been kind of slaving over for the last 10 years is a new framework. It's just a different way of thinking about the same mathematics, about thinking about everything that we've gathered from all the experimentation and physics and just seeing it in a slightly different way that's more practical, that leads to less paradoxes. And so I think that it's out of the box now. So, you know, the more that people start thinking this way, I'm sure the robots will pick up on it eventually as well. And we might see some serious progress and understanding these at that point. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot Deals at Vons and Albertsons. This week, Signature select drumsticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with membership where applicable. And Alpharos, Artsasano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299

1:02:09with digital coupon. Plus get a 3-pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsoralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. Toyota's easy choice sales event is on. Whether you're looking for the performance of a camera, the versatility of Arab 4, the efficiency of a Corolla, or all electric driving in the BZ, there's a Toyota that's just right for you. And with great deals across the lineup, now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event ends soon. We make it easy. Toyota, let's go places. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot Deals at Vons and Albertsons. This week, Signature select drumsticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with membership where applicable. And Alpharos, Artsasano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital

1:03:15coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsoralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. Toyota's easy choice sales event is on. Whether you're looking for the performance of a car, or the camera, the versatility of a RAV4, the efficiency of a Corolla, or all electric driving in the BZ. There's a Toyota that's just right for you. And with great deals across the lineup, now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event ends soon. We make it easy. Toyota, let's go places. Enjoy big savings with Red Hot Deals Advons and Albertsons. This week, signature select drumsticks or thighs, bone-in value packs are 99 cents per pound with membership where applicable. And Alpharos, Artsasano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with digital coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandrants for 399 with digital coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week.

1:04:20Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsoralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. Let's look this back into the question of UAPs because I think that we could talk about the vagaries. We talked about the shift in the framework. I mean, we talked about it a little bit at the beginning, but we've been trumping off the importance of shifting the perspective in order to make sense of things that don't fit into the extant framework. And the extant framework for light and gravity has been purely schematic up to this point, right? We parameterize our experiences for gravity. We're parameterizing them in terms of this measurable quantity called mass. And for light, we have really the measurements of electricity. So antennas and sensors work by through the photoelectric effect, generally speaking. And you're able to analyze the output. So everything has been developed on the back of realizing that we can we have measurables that we

1:05:21can relate to one another in these equations. And we're able to structure incredible technological breakthroughs on the back of it. The shift in the framework involves actually making material sense of what underpins those variables. So I alluded to one just now with the electron, right? Mass might be a fun one to open us up into gravity with too because mass is a funny little word that you get hit with, you know, infreshment physics for the first time. And you know, it's kind of tricky to make sense of what that word means at first because when they introduce it to you, it's usually a little block sitting on a table in a kinematics diagram, right? You moved the mass across the table. But mass is also a quantity which scales gravity. And so what does that mean exactly? Is it a thing? Is it a quality and a huge part of our project when we were trying to build out this structure and trying to actually understand the structure of the medium that conveys the tensile

1:06:23pressure of gravity and the push of light was analyzing the concept of mass? Yeah. And so the concept of mass is really important for understanding some of these five observables where we have anti-gravity, sudden acceleration and transmutium travel. So transmutium travel, I think that this might be the most kind of sketched out one because you were saying that, like, yeah, the transmutium travel is from like outer space into the atmosphere. Maybe they're traveling through like water and rocks, but we don't have a ton of data. So we can set that one aside at least for now, like put a pin in it. But we have sudden acceleration and we have anti-gravity. And both of these are deeply tied into the concept of mass. And so, okay, sudden acceleration. Why is sudden acceleration difficult? Sudden acceleration is difficult because you have inertia. Like, anytime that you are trying to accelerate something, trying to change its constant motion,

1:07:28you are fighting against some invisible force that is scaled by the mass of the object. And so this is why when you are in outer space, something is technically weightless, but it's still hard to move because it still has mass even though it doesn't have weight. And obviously gravity masses the is the quality of materials of bodies that scales how much they will be attracted to another object. Like, how much pull are they going to be able to exert on nearby bodies? And so at the heart of both of these phenomena, the ability to accelerate suddenly the ability to defy gravity, what we have is we have some sense that these tech techs are able to screw with the way that mass plays with the rest of the universe. And if we don't understand what mass is, if mass is just some variable, that's in our equations, then you're kind of like, okay, well, that's real weird.

1:08:33They work, they be doing. But if you have a sense that there is a physical cause of mass, then all of a sudden you can say, oh, okay, well, maybe they're messing with the physical properties that are giving it mass in the first place. And importantly to this, one of the biggest breakthroughs in mainstream physics in the last 100 years is the famous general relativity discovery, which actually stemmed from the insight, another frame shift, which was that inertia and gravity were really two sides of the same coin. So that equation, F equals M A, the inertial equation, the one that everybody gets hit with in freshman physics, can be actually equated to the gravitational equation, which is the product of these masses split by the square of the distance between them, times some constant. Those can actually be equivlated to one another. And by processing that in depth, you can build a radically more precise framework for understanding gravitational inertial

1:09:36phenomena. And so... Enjoy big savings with Red Hot Deals at Vons and Albert Sins. This week, Signature Select Drumsticks or Thies, Bone In Value Packs are 99 cents per pound with membership were applicable. And Alpharos, Artisano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with Digital Coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandarin for 399 with Digital Coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit Vons or Albert Sins.com for more deals and ways to save. Meet the Red Bull Dragonberry Emergizer. It's one of the many new drinks out now. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so... fire. Enjoy Big Savings with Red Hot Deals at Vons and Albert Sins. This week, Signature Select Drumsticks or Thies, Bone In Value Packs are 99 cents per pound with membership were applicable. And Alpharos, Artisano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with Digital Coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of

1:10:41mandarin for 399 with Digital Coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit Vons or Albert Sins.com for more deals and ways to save. Enjoy Big Savings with Red Hot Deals at Vons and Albert Sins. This week, Signature Select Drumsticks or Thies, Bone In Value Packs are 99 cents per pound with membership were applicable. And Alpharos, Artisano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with Digital Coupon. Plus get a 3 pound bag of mandarin for 399 with Digital Coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit Vons or Albert Sins.com for more deals and ways to save. Our insight is a direct descendent of that which is that this word mass is completely

1:11:46undefined materially in these equations. But it is the key to understanding why they are the same thing. Why is it difficult to move a body? Why is the dropping of feather and a hammer on the surface of the moon? Why does it take the same amount of time to hit the ground? That's completely insane. And the key insight to that is the connectivity which is where I think we want to move this discussion towards next. Because if the connectivity of a body is radial, that is it's connected to its surroundings in all directions, then the immediate attraction that it feels, which we'll call gravity to its local surrounding, is directly, if we're fortunate to the connectivity it has to the rest of its surroundings. And the more material you have there, you're adding connection to the environment surrounding that body in the same proportion that you're adding that connectivity to the local environment. So you have more stuff, you have more connections, and you're balancing

1:12:46the connections that are restraining you by connecting you to the wider environment with the connections that are now being added in front of you. To the ground beneath you. This idea that mass is actually scaling the explicit number of material connections as a result of your architecture is key to understanding why gravity and inertia are essentially two sides of the same phenomenon, which is quite explicitly just the material connection of a body and atomic, you know, a composite of many atoms to its surroundings and to its local environment. And we arrive at that, I previewed it in the first part of this conversation, but everybody already understands that the atom, you know, the outer surface of it, this electron shell, has this nebulous character to it, it has extension. Actually, the empirical record has allowed us to

1:13:47create a very detailed model of the shell of these atoms, the shape of them, right? And the way that you process that allows you to actually see that the predicted extension of the atomic surface is quite extensive, I mean, expansive, right? It actually has no limit. So in theory, the electron shell of an atom can extend indefinitely. Now, no one's ever gone off infinity to measure that, obviously. But the principle remains and all of the empirical data supports the idea that the structure of the atom is extended radially away from it, which means that you have ample conditions if the atom is a material body, a material structure, just like your computer, anything else that has little subunits, which have been, we can't see them because we see everything with atoms. But if it has some substructure to it, then it has every means to have even smaller, you know, composite structures that connect it to its neighbors,

1:14:48right? And so instead of using a cloud to model this, we use these tensile filaments, but they're obeying the same mathematical dynamics. We're just, we have a furry atom instead of a cloudy atom, with the advantage that now with actual hair-like projections from that shell proper of the atom, we have the means by which to exert tension between neighbors. And that concept of mass, all of a sudden, just tells us how many of those connections a given body has, which usually comes down to how many atoms it has, or how heavy those atoms are. In other words, how big and convoluted and how many projections they would be expected to have, like a gold atom has way more of these tensile connections possible than a little hydrogen atom. It's heavier, right? So it has more... The heaviness comes from. That's where the heaviness comes from. It's more anchored into the network, and it's more anchored into its local environment, and those two processes balance as inertia and gravity. So if we're looking at something like this, these wild subversions of inertia and gravity,

1:15:53the immediate mechanism that comes to mind is that there is some sort of hyperfinatic process happening that has ripped these connections loose at the points of contact where these observations are occurring. There's some sort of slipstream of highly energized atomic material that where the surfaces are just flexing in such a way that they no longer can form connections to whatever happens to be behind them. And I don't know how they do that, but it seems to happen entirely within the realm of the new paradigm. So, and correct me if I'm wrong. So basically what you're arguing for is just to look at our current physics with a new perspective. And you're saying that right now our current model just takes mass completely for granted, right? It comes out of nowhere. It's a variable, they just say, there is mass,

1:16:54but there's no actual reason that the mass is actually there. And our current model uses mathematical points, like the electron is not really there. It's a point particle and somehow this mass is just not understood. Yeah, a lot of times these measurable variables are taken and in philosophy they have a concept called reification, but it's when you basically take an abstraction, like a measurement, and then treat it as if it's a material body. And this is a huge problem. It's been given lots of names over the years by all sorts of philosophers, you know, map for territory. The fallacy of misplaced concreteness by Whitehead. Yeah, Whitehead talked about this a bit. It's a huge problem in communication and it can lead you into dead ends really easily. Because if you start treating something that's an abstraction as if it is the material body, then not only are you not going to get to the answer, but you have no chance because you're not even approaching

1:17:54the problem from the right set of tools that you need. So I can't just be like, hey, Nostya, can you hold on to my fear for a few minutes while I go and climb this cliff over here? It doesn't really make sense. I can't just move, like it's a material body, my emotions, and give them to somebody to hold on to while I go do something. That's just nonsensical. But it's done all the time in mathematical physics because you take a measurable variable and abstraction, which is an experience of mass. And you treat it like it's an actual material. They move it around on the block on that kinematic diagram, right? And so you're setting yourself up for failure from the beginning because you've completely cloaked the problem that you need to solve in order to make the true breakthrough by acting like you, like there's no problem there at all. So what we're trying to say is like there's a whole sea of really fun material problems hiding in plain sight in modern physics. It's not that we

1:18:55need more precise large hajron colliders and more mathematics. It's like we have tons and tons of data where the fundamental questions have just been locked out of sight. They're just cloaked, you know? It's, there's a jamming system going on. It's not there to even be discussed at this point in time. Do you think just the UAP question will open anyone's mind? It's like I'm sure you guys wouldn't have talked about UAPs or looked into UAPs unless you knew me or invited you on the podcast. You know, do you think analyzing these anomalies or considering that maybe they could be real, real reality could, you know, see some change? I think I think that making sense of where the current understanding breaks down is where a lot of insight comes from. And this will for us, it's like there's plenty of this just in the boring, boring experiments, you know? We have plenty

1:20:01of nonsensical conclusions from physics. They call them paradoxes. They call them dualities. Dualism is a duality or duality? Yeah, so the way particle duality. Duality of light. So there's all these places where they're clearly getting the wrong answer. Right? So there's plenty in plain sight, but there's also, they're all over astrophysics as well. You know, I mentioned dark matter earlier. There's places where the understanding just breaks down. And we have this strange habit as physicists of just naming the mystery and calling it something again, sort of misplaced. We're like, oh, it's dark matter. Well, what do you mean by that? What you really mean is like, we don't know what the hell's going on, but you treat the problem like it's a solution and you name it and you linguistically treat it in such a way that the actual mystery doesn't get the attention it deserves, which is a mechanistic material-based treatment. Yeah, and I think to kind of answer the points to the aspect of the question,

1:21:05I think that as the data about UAPs got better, I think we definitely would look at it, but this comes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is that we don't have a really good frame for it. Yeah. And we operate in a place where we need that frame because what we do is we aren't just kind of manufacturing explanations from whole cloth. We're looking at well-described phenomena that have really good data. We're leveraging everything that has been discovered in the last 200 years of physics to say, this is pointing to a more complete picture. The Red Bull Dragonberry Emergizer. It's one of the many new drinks out now. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire? Try them all only at McDonald's. Toyota's easy choice sales event is on. Whether you're looking for the performance of a camera, the versatility of Arat 4, the efficiency of a

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1:23:10Visit Vons or Albertsons.com for more deals and ways to save. Meet the Red Bull Dragonberry Emergizer. It's one of the many new drinks out now. Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire? Try them all only at McDonald's. And the UAP stuff is kind of, it's so on the bleeding edge of it that it's unclear with like a hard data how to fold that in. There's a huge conundrum in the UAP space where you would have to travel faster than light, right? I've interviewed many abjectees. Mario Woods, his story just broke again where he was, I think I've told you guys the story before, but he was a nuclear guard. He guarded nuclear missiles and he was abducted by this giant.

1:24:10It looked like a sun he said over the nuclear missile silo and then four aliens came up to him. It was like three little grays and then there was like a bigger gray behind him. This insane story, right? But there was a guy with him named Michael Johnson who was the driver and he was frozen the whole time. Anyway, this past week Jesse Michaels found him, actually found this other guy Jesse, found Michael Johnson, had him on the show. But the point is in order for any of this to be true, you would have to travel faster than the speed of light, right? And that was when I was growing up, that was my whole, I believe the mainstream argument that okay, yeah, even if aliens were real, they couldn't possibly get here because it would take so many billions of years, etc. How could you think about going faster than the speed of light? I don't even have a way to like reference it except that we don't know what light is. It like points to, we just don't know what is the actual underlying framework of reality if you can go faster than light. What's your guys take on that?

1:25:14Well, it's like we talked previously about light as being the speed limit of the medium, right? So like Shiloh explained mass and he's like, there's this connection that emerges from atoms to other atoms. And so there's a medium that is made of the atoms themselves. And you showed the cover of the book earlier and it's these filamentary connections that we think are the features of the atoms. Like they are, they are not- They're the cloudy stuff. They're the cloudy stuff that we were ranged into these long-range filaments. And so this creates the medium. This is the medium in which light travels because deformations, these transfer deformations of the filaments like you can see on the cover. That is the material basis for the phenomenon of light. So for it to say like what is light, light is these deformations inside the filaments that are traveling in between atoms. Very similar to a guitar string. Very similar. It's very, you know, mathematically it's identical. So you can think about, you know, I want to be

1:26:17clear though, this is like a very general simplification. You know, nature is mucky and complex. And the fibers that compr- whatever atomic subunits comprise the actual individual filmants, I mean it's probably very complex. But we model them essentially as these very then string-like projections we call them filaments. And the- So if light is the deformation of those filaments, gravity is the tension in those filaments. And so like the filaments that you see emanating from that atom connected to other atoms, it allows them to exert pull on each other. Okay. So the speed limit of light, the speed limit of gravity is then the speed limit of the medium. If you can disconnect from the medium, which you would need for these sudden accelerations, which you would need for this anti-gravity technology in the first place, then all of the sudden your speed limit is not limited by the medium because you are not traveling in the medium. You're traveling in some kind of

1:27:22void in some kind of bubble. You are basically- A slipstream. A slipstream that moves in between the materials that comprise the rest of the web. And so you're kind of free. And I think that it's important to emphasize, I have no idea how you would do this. I know that people are working on that. I think we can expect a little bit just for funsies. We could. Because we do have a little section of the book. This was- We didn't want to get too far in the weeds with this, but ordinary magnets actually give us a little bit of insight. We have reason to believe in the solve built on the book. I don't want to bore your audience with it. But we have reason to believe that there is some population of these filaments that does rip loose during magnetic action, especially strong magnetic action when you bring two really powerful solenoids together where the surfaces of the atoms are actually whipping- They're driving so much current through this thing. You're driving this system really fast. And it's a kind of rotatory motion at the electron shell to the extent that you do rip

1:28:23off some population of these filaments. Obviously, some population is still maintaining connection to the environment, but there is some small population that is ripped free. So I think there's- And we build- I can be substantiate that case much further in the book. So check it out. But I think there is enough evidence to believe that you can rip some of these filaments loose that we should expect that with enough electromagnetic sophistication that you could potentially at least rip all of them loose. And if you figured out how to do that, you would no longer be subject to a speed limit that we call the speed of light, which is really a function of how tense and stiff this medium is, which holds everything in place. If you're no longer part of that, if you've broken free from that web, then you can imagine just moving like a little defect and a lattice through it. And it would really spare you all of the heartache. And it'd be freaking awesome if that was possible, by the way, just from like a explorer perspective, because I would love to be able to go

1:29:27and see alpha centauria or something, right? And if you could do that, you could probably go in an afternoon. But if you can't, you know, you're going to be sending your grandchildren to see alpha centauria. So I really hope that it is something that somebody somewhere in the universe has already figured out, and we can just learn from them. I really want that to be true. And so there's an interesting outcome of this model. So the way that child is talking about it, where he's like, okay, so if you can force the surfaces of the atoms to whirl in a concerted way that's fast enough that it rips them free of the network, like it doesn't destroy their filaments. But what it does is it basically rips them loose from connecting to stuff that's outside of this whirling system. That means that you've also interrupted light, because we have these two populations of filaments. We have the loose filaments that we think are involved in magnetism. And so the rotation of these loose filaments is what creates the magnetic field. And this is

1:30:27why magnets are basically concerned. It's some extent to some extent. Yeah, I would just like really border that it might be a very small population because we're still applying those magnetic field tensions to the connected, the connect zone as well. So the magnetic field is both these populations, but they, yeah. But what's weird is that like magnets don't screw with light and they don't screw with gravity. Like if you have a strong magnet, it's not like there's some kind of weird optical effect when you're looking at it. Like you can kind of see the effect of magnets on light, but it's really, really, it's my new, like you see these like little wavelength shifts. Like there's a really important discovery in the like late 1800s with the line, line splitting, which is that you can take the light, light produced by sodium, you can put that atom into a really strong magnetic field. And the wavelength of those lines changes just a little bit. And so you can see basically all the different motions of the atom producing slightly different wavelengths.

1:31:28But you're not getting big effects. So like magnetism doesn't seem to interrupt light. But if you're breaking your connection to the medium, you've broken the filaments that are responsible for transmitting light. And so I think that you, this is going to sound crazy. I think that you would disappear because you would be disconnected in terms of being able to exchange light between the object that is experiencing this anti-gravity and the rest of the, the local environment, but, but. And this comes back to the tick-tack. And you were, when we were talking about this earlier, like, well, if you're disconnecting from the medium, then like what the hell is the tick-tack? And I'm like, I think that that's the shell. It's the bubble, maybe. It's the bubble, right? Because what you see is you see like a feature-less white zone that when you try to image it on a camera is like very furry and kind of, it's, it's not a sharp boundary. And so I think that the surface of the tick-tack is the surface of the shell of the disconnection. And there's something else inside of it.

1:32:34And so that actually would also connect to the fact that when it was bouncing around on the surface of the water, you're seeing the white water underneath it. And if it doesn't have a propulsion signature, that's pretty weird because you're like, well, what the hell is happening? But if it has this shell around it of these whirling atoms that are actually in some kind of motion from, from like interacting with this broken interface, then all of the sudden you have motion that's that's that's surrounding the body that's producing some kind of real air current that then screws with the surface of the water and creates the white water. That's amazing. Now you guys had some great insights there which I really appreciate because you're not UAP, you know, a Fixianados if you will. But so first, Shiloh, you mentioned the magnetic field. And if you could have really strong magnetic fields, which is very interesting because there's a lot of anecdotal cases, right? Where they suspected really super intense magnetic

1:33:41fields where you have basically, there's a lot of cases where the car radios go out. Engines stop working in some sort of proximity to these objects. You also have Kevin Knuth, Dr. Knuth. He believed in case where they were picking up extreme magnetic fields. So I thought that was that was really interesting because there is precedent for this in the literature. I mean, we're talking about really, really intense. So I'm looking at this like, if whoever is building these things has access to some power structure or let's say current manipulating technology that I just don't understand it because we're talking about way beyond the skill of the little sonal is that people are experimenting with in laboratories to my knowledge. So it's like if I make just extending the concept of magnetism to the limit,

1:34:41then at some point I just have to arrive at the perspective that the tens, the tensile strength of these connections has to give because there's a fundamental rule in all of material science. It's like if something can bend, it can be broken. That's just a de facto self-evident truth of the universe. It's like an axiom, a principle of material science. And it can be understood in terms of sub-unit dynamics and stuff, but at some point these things won't flex anymore. So you're going to drive this surface, which is how we in the book elaborate the mechanics of electricity. You're really driving the surface into this frenetic patterned motion. Some point you're just the the the the filaments are going to yield. They just can't. There's no material that can flex without breaking at some point, but that is way beyond the energy of anything I'm familiar with. And to kind of like elaborate on this a little bit, like if you have, so if we're talking about some some craft that has a surface that's able to induce this breakage, you have a shell where the like photogravital filmants are now disconnected

1:35:49from the local environment, but the atoms that are surrounding that shell are still in contact with the filmants. And so motion is being transmitted to them because the filmants still remain real material bodies that are that are that are encountering the atoms on the outside in some frictional way. And so they're going to be setting them into motion. And all electricity and all magnetism at the end of the day is frenetic motion of atoms patterned in a specific way. Like if you look at lightning, if you look at magnets, like these are arrangements of atoms that are doing something in the air. And so if this disconnected shell is then organizing the atoms around it, then despite the fact that you are disconnected from the medium, you're still affecting the medium because you're sending it into some kind of motion. And then it's those atoms that are in motion on the surface of the shell that are then going to be performing these like weird magnetic actions. And does that explain how we could see it? Right?

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1:38:14or Thighs, Bone In Value Packs are 99 cents per pound with membership where applicable. And Alpharos, Archesano Bread, 20 ounces select varieties are 299 with Digital Coupon. Plus get a 3-pound bag of mandrants for 399 with Digital Coupon. Enjoy fresh and delicious savings every day of the week. Hurry in, these deals won't last. Visit vonsouralbertons.com for more deals and ways to save. A New Planet Fitness is now open in La Crescenta. Join today for $1.15 a month. Take advantage of our new, best-in-class, strength and cardio equipment in our spacious club, free fitness training, and so much more. Our doors are open and we're ready for you. You ready? Join the New Planet Fitness in La Crescenta for $1.15 a month. Hurry Deal Ends October 4. Planet Fitness, cardio, strength, recovery, right around the corner. See Club for details. Because it always confuses me if it's not making a sonic boom and if it's traveling

1:39:15these crazy speeds and not burning up, then it's kind of in some sort of slipstream, right? It's using some sort of effect. But if it's using, you know, intense magnetic field to produce this. Like you mentioned in Estasia, could it be that that's why we can actually see it because magnetic fields don't affect the actual light or maybe that's why it's kind of furry like your sodium atom example. Yeah, I think what you're seeing is that atoms outside of that slipstream, right, as they respond to it. We're saying that the magnetic action of the actual barrier, but let's say that's the craft. Let's say it's the craft. And then there's an optical slipstream. And then there's the shell. The slipstream being where this hyper-driven electromagnetic action is occurring to the point that those atoms have disconnected from what's behind them and their surroundings. There's still going to be a slipstream beyond that, which is going to essentially look like a bubble, an interface of some sort. And you're going to have all

1:40:18sorts of optical, known optical phenomena that is going to be apparent from that interface. And so perhaps what we're observing is the interface on the atomic side, on the normal comfortable physics side of things. And there's comfortable physics stuff on the other side, but there's an interface where these atoms are being driven beyond the limits that we're even capable of in classical electromagnetic observation in the laboratories. And there's a small layer of those that are basically putting up an impenetrable barrier between one side and the other. That doesn't stop us from seeing something somewhat energetic happening on our side of the interface as well. Like I would basically say that the thing that we're saying is we're saying the surface of the slipstream. Right, because you can't see the surface of the slipstream. Yeah, like you can't see past it, but the interfaces for light are really, really weird. Light for everything. Yeah, I guess that's true. And so.

1:41:20So if you were to like zoom in on the surface of a notion, you think like, oh, I'm just going to like get to like this boundary at some point. And like, colloquially, it's sort of true. Like there is a boundary. Like if you jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, you're going to feel it when you hit it, hit the water, right? But if you really zoom in, you're going to see atoms that is a layer where some atoms are leaving the water, some of them are joining the water. There's this really gray zone where it's like, is this part of the body of water? Is it not part of the body of water? What's my time scale? There's all interfaces in general. Always have this, you know, the closer you zoom in on them. And we could be talking about a few atoms thick for this actual high energy level. There's also another thing that's really interesting that is it's the concept of the Evanessant field. And we haven't studied this a lot. Like our friend, the trip designer recently brought this tour attention. And the Evanessant field is really interesting because it is some kind of near field electromagnetic effect that you get even when light doesn't leave

1:42:25a medium. So normally you would expect that if you have total internal reflection of light at a surface, what does that mean? That means that the light is inside the surface. And when it bounces, it remains on the inside. And that you shouldn't be able to sense anything on the outside of that interface because the light has remained inside. But it turns out that when you get this total internal reflection of just regular light that right at the boundary, like at a very, very small distance, we're talking like microns, you actually have field effects on the outside of that boundary. Not propagating light though. Yeah. So like, there's basically like something that gets passed through this interface, despite the fact that the light itself stays on the inside. And so if the slips, if like the atoms of the slipstream are creating this kind of boundary that anything that's happening on the inside is being reflected, then on the outside, what you're seeing is maybe this kind of Evanessant field that's emerging from the total internal reflection of

1:43:28any kind of motion on the inside. It's a little speculative. Like I haven't built that out yet. I was just thinking about it in the course of this conversation. But that's really interesting though too because in most of the cases, I would say, there's there seems to be like balls of light that are either as engines like the Phoenix lights lights case. That's a famous one where there was like five balls of light. Whenever there's one of these balls of light, people say that they can look at it. Like it's a weird type of light where it doesn't radiate out. Like the light is just in a ball. It's literally a ball of light that blows people away. And whenever there are any beams, when people say, okay, yeah, there was a spotlight on me. They say that it's almost like a collimated laser or something that the light doesn't expand. It's like focused into that point, which maybe think of your exact point there on these balls of light.

1:44:29That's really interesting. I mean, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. I was just going to say that like whatever these craft are, they clearly have some kind of advanced ability to manipulate light, some advanced ability to manipulate gravity. And so the idea of being able to open some kind of portal inside the shell that then like when you're stable because they're not doing this when they're moving at super high speed as far as I understand it. Like this is, if you're getting a spotlight, like the thing is stable momentarily, open some kind of opening inside of the shell, is able to interact with stuff on the outside of it, then closes up and then goes on its way. And like this is like we're not proposing any kind of magic here. That's what's crazy is that nobody's thinking about gravity or light in terms of anything other than magic right now. And we're and what I mean by that is that there's no mechanism for them right. And so of course these are

1:45:32intractable problems under the current framework. But if you're like, no, like gravity's not magic, it's just the atoms pulling on each other. Through their extended structure, then all of a sudden you can start to approach the problem with like, okay, how we're obviously getting around light and gravity. They seem to be two different actions of the same tensile medium. And we have tons of characterization, characterization of that through the structure of the atom itself. Great, we can actually get to work on how you would go about doing that. It doesn't seem like it's that far. I don't have to stretch my imagination too far to imagine how you would do it. Not that I can, but it seems like a solvable problem. But if gravity is just this, I don't know, it's just freaking, you know, warp space time or something like it's just weird, you know, it's just that's just how it is gravity just is. We're like wormholes and black holes and like all this like really exotic stuff that you have to cite. I just, I think that if you have a material notion of how all these things

1:46:38fit together, you can start to put stories on it. And if you can start to put stories on it that you can hold in your head, then somebody with a laboratory can actually go and test them. And that's kind of the gold standard. That's what I'm always saying about any theories. Like if somebody can use your model, your framework for thinking about something and then accomplish something extraordinary with it, that's the power of it. I was going to say you were kind of like, you guys probably wouldn't care about UAPs and all this. We really want to have a UAP experience. I really, I've had a few really weird things happen, but we'll look at back to that. I was just going to say we almost wrote into the book because one of the one of the criticisms people often give theorists is who cares? Why does this matter? And you did a video about this, which I really liked to your who cares video, which I thought was excellent because it's a legitimate gripe and it's difficult to contend with sometimes. And for me, the first place my mind went when I when we were developing all of this in terms of who cares was, oh my god, if we actually have a material

1:47:42basis for light and gravity, just think of what kind of cool transport vehicles we could create. Right? And so that was actually like really early on for me. I wouldn't say I'm motivation, but it was it was the realization that there was something downstream of this that could make our lives a lot better. I mean, it's cool and nice. It's nice and everything to know how things work in nature. That's fun. But what are you going to do with it? And I'm like, this is what we're going to do with it. I'm going to take a holiday weekend in office in Tury. Like this is a promising avenue to actually solving a problem that's been really pissing me off since I was six years old, which is that my science teacher's like, you're never going to go to another star. I mean, I don't know that I'm personally going to go to one, but I think people can do it. I think it's possible. And I think there's actual mechanical basis for how that could be done. And I think that that's what we're all learning from this conversation here today. I think there's many people in the audience that would agree, actually. I get countless comments saying that they know it's true.

1:48:44Actually, that they've seen it with their own eyes. They've experienced it to them. It's definitely a possibility to those people. It's just canned science, catch up. And I think your guys framework is just even if it's not correct. And I think actually it could be actually correct. Even if it's not, we need more people taking the risk, taking the time to come up with a different framework, because obviously we're stuck. Obviously we can't explain so many things that you just explain. I mean, masks. We don't know where masks come from. I should not. The title of the book is, the subtitle is the material principles of natural philosophy. And really, the main offering of the book is a means to approach creating theories. So we do give a demonstration with the back half of the book where we attempt to use these principles to create actual material models of light and gravity. But the main offering, and I hope that our

1:49:46theories of light and gravity are correct, because who the hell wouldn't want to be right about those things. But the main offering is that there's a different approach to even creating such a theory. We didn't call, we flirted with calling the book, you know, a material solutions to light and gravity or something like that. We didn't do it because at the end of the day, the real value of of this work, the thing that we're most proud of is that we think we understand how to approach those problems. And so even if you hate our solutions, even if you hate the furry atom, that's cool, because there's still something in there for you to use those same principles to approach your own solutions to them. And maybe yours will be better than mine. I would love to hear them if they are. Thank you so much for coming on. Everybody check out Demystify Si. It's my favorite physics podcast. I'm a patron. So check out their patron as well. They like me. They don't take sponsorships. So support us. YouTube is out here trying to find the secret or reality. Answer questions that I

1:50:46want to know. I just I want to know and I'm so happy. It's the best part of the job is getting to meet people like you guys and yeah, we met in person. Hopefully we'll meet again. Eclipse August 2nd, 2027. Yeah, so I love to do it. Check out the book. Paradox Lost. It's number one in physics history or sorry, history of physics on Amazon and everybody have a great rest of your day. Thanks, Chris. Thank you, everybody. Thank you guys. This video was paid for by these people. Some of them since 2021. Join on YouTube or on Patreon. You'll also get early ad free videos. You'll also get UAP news roundups and random posts about my thoughts on books such as Paradox Lost. Thanks for watching. You really do make this channel run. Have a great rest of your day. Peace.

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