Inside SOL 2025: Hidden Tunnels & Off-Record Talks | Andy McGrillen

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1:21With wonder, you can combine 20 restaurants in one delivery. So no one has to settle. Please code MealTime for 50% off your first wonder order, terms apply. See wonder.com slash new customer. Hey everyone, welcome back to LatoFiles. I'm Chris Lato and today I have Andy from that UFO podcast. We just got back from the sole symposium and Lago Majore. That was where some of the world's top researchers, scientists, and experiencers all came together to talk about UAPs, consciousness, and really the future of the field and disclosure. I thought it was an incredible few days. We'll get Andy's take on it. It was packed with high level discussions. We had some new data and a lot of behind the scenes moments that I think you won't hear anywhere else. So today we're going to break it all down. Thanks Andy for being here. Thank you for having me Chris. Pleasure to be on. Excellent. I brought your book, your new book, Atlas of Unidentified Flying Objects all the way to Italy to have you sign it.

2:21I saw you the first day and then I just never saw you get. I heard you make some questions, but where were you that whole time? Mate, it was incredibly busy for everyone being in one hotel and one bar area mainly. It was a big hotel. I didn't even realize until the third day that it had a tunnel system underneath the hotel which connected. Did you know this? No, I'd never even know that. No. All along the street, a couple of hundred yards is connected to the hotel and they have a tunnel system and that's what connected. Do you know when we go along the big long corridor between the atrium and the lunch hall and stuff, you could go down a set of stairs and walk basically to the next hotel. So yeah, it was huge and it was like you say, I saw you the first night you came over and said hi and then it was really easy with the crowds of people to then not see someone for days. Unfortunately, I had to leave early on the Monday morning. So there was a few people that I meant to catch up with before I left and I didn't get

3:22the chance. But yeah, it was incredibly busy. Very rewarding. I think I personally got a lot from it and I know people are really keen to hear what actually attending these events is like because that was my first real proper UFO conference if you want to call it that. I've not been to contact in the desert, awaiting awakening all that kind of stuff. I've been to one or two local things in the UK a few years ago. But this is the first time attending an event like this with the names and the people. So yeah, I'm really happy to get into it. Yeah, it was my first event as well. You know, living over in Europe, it's just difficult to get over to the US so far. And so it was great. This was the first year they did it over here. The first two were in San Francisco. And so yeah, I thought it was fantastic. And I do want to plug your book. I think it is excellent. It's through a, you know, a professional publisher. And the quality is amazing. I think it's great. It goes through covers all of the major cases throughout history.

4:25And I saw you had a F 16 in here. This is from the Stevenville case. Some nice pictures. So I think it's an excellent book. I'd recommend it to anybody interested in probably for someone new to the field even or advanced, you know, like I had fun looking through at all the interesting cases. I hadn't really analyzed it all. But then it's just a good encyclopedia really of all the major cases. Yeah, it's a good snapshot. And I think there's a lot of great books out there. For example, it's got the classics like Roswell and you know, Kexburg, all that kind of stuff's there. But the remit, the only remit from the publisher was it has to be international. You know, it's a worldwide phenomenon. It's a worldwide audience. We don't want 34 cases all from the United States. So it's half the US and half the rest of the world. And it touches on like you say. So I'm really well known cases, but some less unknown. Some of them are a page and a half to pages. Others are 15 pages long, but between the maps, the pictures and what not.

5:26I had fun putting it together, almost broke down in tears at multiple points. So when it was halfway through and realizing what it's like to actually write a book when you've got a life around you as well. But no, I got it done and thanks for bringing it along. Sorry, I didn't get to sign it this time. But yeah, folks that have got it have really enjoyed it. And I think they've been pleasantly surprised by the presentation of it. So the team at Ivy Press has done a great job. How long did it take you when you said, you almost broke down in tears? What was that like? So like for context, I've got a full time job and three young children that are like 479 and I do the podcast. So there was a lot going on. I started writing it in October 2023. And then it was only February of 2025 that I really finished it and handed it in. I think the bulk of the book was written through 2024, especially spring to summer.

6:27I really got into it. I've done that awful thing of, yeah, I'll start it next week. And before you know it, your deadlines and a month and the good people were very good at extending my deadline multiple times with me and being very patient. But yeah, they're happy with it. I'm happy with it. People have enjoyed it. So, yeah, if I can write a book, anyone can genuinely write a book. So if you feel you've got that book and you folks crack on and go get it published. Yeah, I can totally test that and try and finish my own at this point. I've written a few in the past and published them. And I think it's a great exercise project for anyone, but it is a beast. I mean, it is a beast to write a book and actually complete it and edit it and make it something that you're proud to release. I don't think people understand that. They say, oh, people are a grifter. You know, he's writing a book and I was even talking to Ryan Graves in the bar. That was one of the highlights for me is getting to spend so much time with Ryan Graves and

7:27Jake Barber. And he was talking about publishing a book and just how much of a beast it is. And even at the maximum level, even if you have like a best seller, you're making maybe maybe a few hundred thousand dollars over like six or seven years. You know, that's like, I'm not looking at New York Times, best sale. Yeah, that's optimum case. And then it goes all the way down to, you know, negative, you know, which the books I've released, I think it's very hard to make money on any book. So I definitely applaud it and anyone wants to support you. It's a fantastic product. What was your overall impression of the sole symposium? Yeah, so anything really surprised you? Really, in terms of the event, really professional, incredibly well structured, big shout out to Marik von Wenning Camp who was the master of ceremonies and had a very difficult job keeping a lot of folks who like to speak on time, which was I think one of my kind of cheeky highlights was seeing Marik at the side of a stage constantly telling folks, you

8:30have to finish, you have to finish, get off the stage. So yeah, I was really looking forward to some of those bigger names, Jake Barber, Carl L, Danipassalka, many of which were speaking on day one. But I think there were some real gems in there as well. I've heard a couple of questions, I've heard speak on a couple of occasions now, was really interesting discussing a UAP secrecy disclosure and political realism. I heard him speak at the University of Durham back in April of this year, really interesting guy, I quite like to get him on the podcast. If that was someone, I think you'd be good to speak with as well, Chris, to be honest. And then get to hear people like Fabio de Massay, members of UDP and Parliament. So that was for me in terms of the talk, a lot of interesting discussions. But I think separately, and this is maybe the stuff folks listening are watching don't like to hear, but a lot of the interest in chats and the impacts from the event probably happened away from cameras, away from people like me in your self-crisp, but the folks

9:31who are talking on stage suggesting policy, suggesting working together, suggesting new partnerships or ventures, they then have those conversations over meals, over drinks at the bar, carrying on privately. And I think that's that for me. You got a feeling that there's going to be impact off the back of it. And if people really want the kind of gossipy stuff, you get to speak to folks who are speakers or not speakers. And they suggest that there are things happening still, there are things coming down the pipeline, just because the UAP Discozure Act has once again dead on arrival, doesn't mean things have stalled in it. Yeah. I think the whistleblower direction for me is what I took from it is still something that's going to be our some fruit. Yeah, I took already mentioned chatting with Ryan Graves in the bar. And I was surprised how much is actually going on behind the scenes, you know, just in even being a podcaster in the space and he was a podcaster. And I just had no idea everything else he was doing in the background that didn't work

10:36out, you know, that venture capital fund he tried to start. For UFOs. Yeah, multiple other ventures, you know, and he was surprisingly optimistic on what's happening. You know, so you get different views, like you just mentioned disclosure act, there's like this downtrodden kind of feeling in the space, but then talk to some of these people like Ryan Graves behind the scenes. And he's like, there is so much going on that we just can't even discuss, you know, you know, one of the discuss things you're working on that ultimately don't come to fruition. Yeah, I had folks as well, Chris come up to me who listen to the podcast and I'm pretty sure probably listen to you, who are watching you as well if they do me. And they they work for space agencies or they worked for three later agencies and they would introduce themselves. And I mentioned on my own podcast, Chris, that there was a section at the back of the hall to the right hand side where you weren't allowed to film or take pictures. All the media was in front of that and there were people from those agencies who were there

11:41who didn't want to be on camera. So again, there's a lot of important folks, influential folks who are attending these events who you don't know attend these events. And to be honest, I don't even know when they come in and introduce themselves to me other than they hand me a business card and say, Hi, I'm Gus. I'm a dog in an expert in speed. So when it comes to fast internet, I know what I'm talking about. That's why I recommend optimum fiber powered internet. It has fast and reliable internet speeds, starting at only $30 a month with a five year price lock. So how can you fetch such an amazing deal by calling 8669 optimum or visiting optimum.com to switch? That's 8669 optimum. Speaking of fetch, that's my cue. Terms apply. See optimum.com for details. The best way to get a job is to offer in Macy's. In the best season of Macy's, you'll find all the best trends. You can combine your locks by less and go out with style. Now 30% in the best brands that hardly ever offer.

12:42And 15% less in the beauty. Besides, the Star Wars members receive $20 dollars in ceremony in purchases that qualify for $100 more. The best season of Macy's is now. Don't miss it. Now, your price is selected. Apply in exceptions. I'm a dog and an expert in speed. So when it comes to fast internet, I know what I'm talking about. That's why I recommend optimum, fiber-powered internet. It has fast and reliable internet speeds, starting at only $30 a month with a five year price lock. So how can you fetch such an amazing deal by calling 8669 optimum or visiting optimum.com to switch? That's 8669 optimum. Speaking of fetch, that's my cue.

13:55I and really don't have to ask all of them to disappear, and that would be some other problem. My message is, I'm giving that to a person who likes wrestling. You know, if your life or guy trying to spend time watchingproper yourself, it's always like this. Therefore, when gonna free your gambling scooter? Let's see theaged universe today, met all of the founders who got giving that economics all of a sudden. Speaking of fetch, that's my cue. Terms apply see optimum.com for details. Listen to the podcast. Enjoy what you do. I'm not here officially, but yeah, really interesting event. So that kind of stuff, I think should give people a little bit of hope and optimism. Yeah, that was a highlight for me. Definitely is meeting people in person. You already mentioned Ryan Gray. So I met Tim Ventura. That was interesting. He's like Jack in real in real life. He is. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, meeting so many other people. And then I even afterwards, like you said, it was such a large venue.

14:57I saw expose like Hollywood. I didn't, you know, get to meet her. There was so many people I didn't meet. And then just riding back in the van, you know, randomly taking the van to the airport, sat with an engineer, scientist working for the Galileo project, you know, basically running that. And then the other guy sitting across from me was a world famous geophysicist. You'll fly us all around the world. Talk to other John Norman, you know, he's running the, the UFO event like museum event, disclosure event that he's going to try and travel around the US talking to him about just how difficult it is. No one wants to be the first to host the UFO disclosure event, you know, in their museum or at their Johnson Space Center, et cetera. And then meeting all the Europeans. That was really interesting as well. So a lot of the Europeans have actually interviewed Fred Palasin. He runs magic, Histollin. That was great as well as the Ukrainian contingent. Did you get to meet the Ukrainians?

15:58So that was a really interesting one. I'm glad you brought that up. I had, I was walking across the, the kind of lobby and one of the listeners from the podcast who I did not know was there. Came up to say hello and he was like, I've just been in the talks with the Ukrainian guys. And I was like, what Ukrainian talk and, you know, I've got the, the program, the program for the, the symposium. And I'm looking going, what I went on, it was downstairs in a different room and all the talks were in one room. So it was a case of you, you know, you were in the venue for the day, but the hotel was huge. And they took me downstairs to the room. The talk had just finished. I know Ryan Graves attended that talk as a few other folks. It was a bit in prompt, you know, I'm told. And then I got to meet them after the fact and speak to one of the guys and they were telling me about what the work that we're doing with the Ukrainian government, how difficult it was though to have these conversations in the middle of an active war zone and an active wartime. They'd all served a time in the Ukrainian military as well. They're going back and forward trying to raise awareness and a very, very difficult circumstance.

17:00But I'm told they had some really interesting footage to present as part of the presentation. Yeah, I actually missed the present. I was just like, you know, went down to the end right when they were finishing, but I met them in Norway when they were there for the project. I had a test on and I interviewed them. And so I knew about their little device that they bury that has all the sensors kind of like a moopass sensor. And I and I made a few videos on some of their frontline footage. They're also this year, they're releasing a journal science journal every five years. They publish it in Ukrainian and English. And so anyone that listeners as well can publish to that. It's a scorer. I'll put a link in the description to their website. You can send your own science paper related to UFOs and they will review it and publish it in both Ukrainian and English. So at the, yeah, everyone there was like somebody, you know, or extremely interested in the subject. So that was really amazing. I really liked Jake Barber's discussion.

18:03It was just so direct. I'd recommend anyone actually watch that the full interview as well as it's, it's really unfortunate. I think that the highlight for me, I think for out of any of the speakers was Jeff Newsatelli. And unfortunately, he was the last one. You know, it was the third day on Monday and a lot of people had already left. So they they actually made the room smaller. They added like these separators made the room smaller. But his speech to me was the most emotional. It was the most direct. You know, we were standing, we gave him clapping ovation at the end. It was really unbelievable. I'm really sorry I missed him. Jeff and Satelli speaking because like others, it wasn't just a case of I wanted to get home. When the event was released, I think we all thought it was going to be Friday Saturday Sunday. And it would be finished on Sunday night. And then I booked flights like many folks did returning early on Monday morning.

19:04And then the agenda came out and it was Saturday Sunday Monday morning. So a lot of folks had had to leave early Monday morning. And I missed it. I got to spend time with Jeff. The day before I had a final on the deal with the beautiful backdrops because it was out the back of the hole. The folks got a chance on the YouTube channel to watch that. Yeah, really nice guy, really interesting conversation. All are going on. And again, it's one of those where a sort of it. You hear one element as conversation has story and what he's trying to do. Hi, I'm Gus. I'm a dog in an expert in speed. So when it comes to fast internet, I know what I'm talking about. That's why I recommend optimum fiber powered internet. It has fast and reliable internet speeds, starting at only $30 a month with a five year price lock. So how can you fetch such an amazing deal by calling 8669 optimum or visiting optimum.com to switch? That's 8669 optimum.

20:04Speaking of fetch, that's my cue. Terms apply see optimum.com for details. The best way to get a Tonyo is to offer to our in Macy's in the event the best of the season in Macy's encounter all the best trends. As you can combine your locks to Tonyo for less and go out with style. Now 30% in the best brands that almost never offer. And 15% less in the best beauty. Thank you very much. What is your thing? What a man called Navodolago. What a person. Yes. People today don't ask over his wife, and she might be telling you these for me, again. So how can you fetch such an amazing deal by calling 8669 Optimum or visiting optimum.com to switch? That's 8669 Optimum.

21:05Speaking of fetch, that's my cue! Terms apply, see optimum.com for details. Shop the Sherwin Williams Fall sale and get 35% off paints and stains September 15th through the 21st, with prices starting at 2986. Whether you're refreshing your interior or exterior, we've got the colors to bring your vision to life and with delivery, getting everything to your door is easier than ever. Shop online to have a delivered or visit your neighbourhood Sherwin Williams store. Click the banner to learn more. Retail sales only some exclusions apply, see store for details delivery available on qualifying orders. But then separately, you hear about what they're doing still in the background, fights going on. And yeah, and I know you've got standard innovations which I'm really so going to miss. Yeah, it reminds us of Frozen as well. Can still hear you. Can still hear me. Yeah. Just text you saying I could hear and see you the whole time there.

22:12Yeah, but my side had frozen, but I could see in here you know problem. So yeah, I kept talking and then I heard you say that I'd frozen. Yeah, but yeah. So you missed Jeff, but you you got to meet him in the background, right? You talked with him. Yeah, I'm done like a short interview with him like 10 minutes just speaking about his experience at the hearings, his thoughts on kind of the situation now and going forward. And then I got a kind of good kind of probably half hour just chat with him walking around the hotel, same with Ryan Graves, spent about 45 minutes getting a bot, Ryan a couple of drinks as a thank you. Yeah. I was really sorry. I was really sorry. But yeah, again, really sorry, I miss Jeff and Eawightly on the last day and James Fowler as well. James Fowler was when I was really looking forward to hearing from and I did not get the

23:15opportunity to even see him in the hotel. Yeah, I saw him just walking down the hall briefly and shook his hand, but then that's it. You know, I didn't know about this underground tunnels. Maybe they're all sneaking around on there. The big way. Well, at that, yeah, I did wonder if some of them maybe were in the hotel along along the way. And there was some other restaurants and stuff. Yeah, but yeah, interesting. And when I say underground tunnels folks, it's not like they're going to dug out in dirt and, you know, secretive. They were like beautifully decorated, expensive pictures on the walls, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, really interesting. And James Fowler's talk was one that I'm sorry I missed and I'll definitely catch up on the on the re-stream. You know, Saul really tries to bridge the gap between the hard science and consciousness studies. But I thought it was interesting. All of the speeches were very like, you know, by the book, no real mention of who is much, you know, Whitley Striever did ask some questions, which I'm glad was brought up.

24:16But the speeches, you know, seemed very sanitized, if you will. But then it seemed like all of the discussions, you know, behind the scenes were all about like consciousness, the will, different investigations going on. Was that your take as well? Yeah, I think they made a point, didn't they? Early on, was it evening in the opening remarks that they wanted to keep the conversation grounded? And they do, they are at pains, I think, to say they're not dismissing the experience are part of this conversation or story. But I know this was, this was an issue, wasn't it? Was it from the first sols symposium where Whitley Striever was meant to speak or it was something like that? And it was, it was removed late on. And I don't think Whitley was happy with that and other folks weren't happy with that. But I do see how they're trying to pull in folks like Fabio Demasi, who's a sitting member on the European Parliament to have a conversation, which he is quite new to and he admitted that himself, but is very much invested in, and they're trying to pull in academics and scientists

25:22and officials and politicians. And I know some folks don't like to hear it and I've hosted multiple experiences on my show and I'm very much happy to have that conversation. But I do think there's a time and place for it still. I was speaking over the weekend to a documentary team who are there from the UK and the UK has a very different approach to this conversation at all than the US does. Even they thought some of the conversations were a little bit out there for them and bear in mind how, like you're saying, they're straight-laced. The conversations are quite scientific, academic, more nuts and bolts focused. And even at times they were like, yeah, as ordinary members of the public, they are to make a serious UFO piece. They were a little bit, for example, Jacques Vallet's talk. I was sitting beside one of the folks producing for that and I asked, I asked her during the presentation, what do you think of this particular case?

26:23And she made a face and I kind of thought where she was going to go with it and she basically suggested it was a little bit dry. It wasn't gripping her. Now some folks might find it was Hainesville 1966, a fascinating case and I love your take on it, Chris. But she, as a member of the public essentially, didn't think it was particularly interesting. And I think you've got to strike that balance of being interesting, being gripping, being serious, but not losing the general public. Yeah, that was a really surprising presentation by Jacques. So he went into excruciating detail really on this case, right? And from 1966, they say a nuclear engineer is driving along the road with his family and sees this plasma ball for a lack of a better word in the forest and can like feel the energy from it. And based on his knowledge of nuclear reactions, he said it was, he felt danger, you know,

27:26danger being in the area and had to actually leave. So the majority of Jacques's presentation was, how do you calculate how much energy was in that ball of light or whatever he saw? And it can't be explained by any sort of modern mundane explanation. So I think from a nuts and bolts perspective, it's an amazing case, right? Obviously if Jack is spending so much time and he's presenting it, that's all he presented. Is that one case in, you know, like I said, I thought, personally, I thought was excruciating detail, but I understand why is because there's no mundane explanation for that. And it's back in 1966. So you can't say there's a modern, you know, can be a drone, et cetera. And interestingly, at the end, people tried to ask, well, what do you think about the UFO phenomenon? You know, like, what is it? And he's like, all I presented was on this case.

28:26And that's all I'm going to answer. One time, so that he was really, yeah, I'm not going into it. Yeah. And that's Jacques Vallet, right? Is the control systems, like he's, I've seen other presentations at the previous soul where he talked about, you know, it has to be, if we're not looking at the weirdest cases, then we're not really investigating this. And this seemed like a 180 to me where he's like, all, you know, all I'm talking about is this very specific case. I thought it was quite interesting. It has stand out line that may surprise people was, the witnesses for me are the trees. And he's making the point that this light source, this plasma ball, whatever it was, was in a clearing that they found. And he had samples of tree bark, which were extremely burned. And he believed with, if you drill down into them almost literally, you would be able to find energy signatures and radiation, but he didn't want the samples destroyed yet. He wanted, he didn't think right now we have the technology to examine these the way we need to, not readily anyway, Gary Nolan on stage, who was very funny.

29:33I think he brought a touch of humor to proceed as well. As I've said, Gary tried, didn't it to get him to do the experiment because Gary offered, if I can do this, I'll have to destroy the tree bark, but I can do the experimentation. And Jacques was like, no, I don't want the evidence to destroy it. So it was the heat from the trees and the object, that was the presentation for him. I can appreciate, like you say, I think excruciating detail, it was a 45 minute talk or half of our talk where perhaps could have given a very similar talk in five minutes on this case. And it probably got the same point across. And that's no disrespect to Jacques for lay. And I'm sure people sitting there are thinking, well, who the hell is Andy to criticize. But I think you know where I'm getting from, where it was like, it was meticulous. But I think that probably underpins the tone of what they wanted from these conversations, as opposed to Jacques going into more extreme territories where folks are trying to take the questions down that route, weren't they?

30:34Yeah, I completely agree. I even said it. I think I said that to my wife, you know, that I could have made that video in 10 minutes, not in 10 minutes. It would take in many hours, but I could have presented the information in 10 minutes. But he must have done it for a reason, obviously, you know, he's been doing this for so many decades. Yeah. And perhaps it is to try and get a little bit of that help in, in exploring the evidence they've got the tree bark, the testimonies fascinating, but it is just testimony. And when you do have evidence, that's great. But he's had this evidence now, what's since 1966? I think a lot of folks are keen to say, you know, turn it over and let them do the experimentation on it. I thought it was interesting, too. It showed pictures of him still doing the investigation, you know, like in Europe, even he was meeting with some European investigators to analyze it. So I mean, he's still doing like detailed in depth case by case analysis, but it was just

31:37yeah, kind of amazing. 60, 60 years on. That's crazy. You know, before you go on to the Sunday, I thought it would be interesting to mention, I asked Jake Barber. I got to ask him the first question in the Q&A. And I think Jake Barber, a lot of folks are bringing up the early in the year. He made a claim along with Skywatch, or they would have, and I had to Google and check the quote that he made around disclosure by the end of the year. And what Jake Barber essentially had said was, they would know by the end of the year, if their techniques and methods were successful and would work. And I asked him what the update was on that because, you know, we were at the end of October at that point, we're now in to November, Chris, you know, folks are expecting in eight weeks some real progress from Skywatcher. Are we going to get that? Are you having to move that back? And Jake, as I was asking the question, was smiling. So I took that as a good sign. He mentioned that it was a fair question. He believes that it may run into next year, but there's no reason why before the end

32:39of the year, they can't present some interesting stuff. It is now being peer reviewed. They want to get it right. They've got 10 terabits of data that they have to get through as well. But for me, I'm going to hang on Jake's word that they're still going to present something by the end of the year. And for me, that something can't be a video that potentially can be birds because we've had that from Skywatcher already. I'm not over-odd with all the videos I've presented. I do get the difficulties they have in collecting the data they're trying to collect. I don't think, and I included myself in this, I don't think the public always appreciate how hard it is to film and capture what they're trying to capture. If indeed what they're trying to capture is non-human, it's very difficult to take a good picture of a lot of things. And I say this is a father of three young children. It's good to take a good picture of three kids all at the same time, let alone objects in the sky. You're not exactly sure where they're going to appear, how they're going to appear,

33:41at what speed, you know, velocities, angles, where the sun is. I get all that's difficult. But given the time they've had, I'm expecting something that at least gets people to raise their eyebrows and say interesting for people to, for them to have that buy-in going into 2026. Yeah, what I got took away from his speech is that Gary is helping them and really take all of that data. You mentioned 10 terabytes of data and getting some valuable, real scientific lessons learned from it and being able to publish those results in a manner that, you know, makes an impact. Because I think that's what Jake learned. You know, when he came out, I'd already worked with Ross Coltart. So I had known, I didn't know the exact details, but I knew that Jake's story was coming out. I knew some of the specifics on it and it seemed amazing. And then when he actually did release, I was extremely surprised by the just negative

34:44reaction from the community and in general, you know, he didn't make any sort of mainstream media at all. I think maybe he learned a lesson from that, which is, wait until you have all your ducks in a row and really present the most solid case and information that you can. I think, yeah, I think part of the issue for me with, with Jake Barber's story when he came out was the initial presentation, 45 minutes with adverts, with ad breaks. And it went from nuts and bolts, crash retrieval to religious experience and Jake's own personal experience really quickly. And again, this is my point. I don't think members of the general public are comfortable with that yet. And including the mainstream media, I think it's one thing to say I worked as a helicopter pilot picking up objects of unknown origin, potentially UFOs, you know, alien spaceships,

35:46whatever you want to call them, to then jump into experience, having a feeling of religious religiousness to it. And Jellic, you know, whatever you want to call it, I think that can dampen the impact. And that's what people want to talk about, that extreme side of things. And I think what really helped is if people went and watched a full unedited, what two and a half hour version of the interview, I think fleshes things out a lot more. But when you get that 45 minute quick edit and you're trying to get all that story in, that for me, probably dampened the potential impact. But saying that, what's your thoughts, Chris, you know, former military, former pilot in hearing Jake Barber's story, because it's not one that's been unanimously accepted by the community? I mean, I do believe him, you know, I believe that he was a Air Force mechanic and then recruited into covert operations.

36:46You know, I think that's how I would do it. If I was running a covert operations program, that's exactly, I wouldn't hire someone, you know, and hire them as a CIA operative, you know, I would just keep them off the books and in my personal life, I've come across people who, they told me that that's what they did, you know, they were rich businessmen that traveled around the world. They have access and they were trained in certain skills. And so either that man was lying to me or that is what he actually did, you know, and I think hearing Jake Barber's story, I believe that family friend, you know, that said that that's what they did. And so it makes sense to me. And if it also, it connects all of the dots when you hear about the experience or accounts, you hear about all the crazy abduction telepathic communication.

37:49And then how you would actually shoot these things down or how you would actually get crash retrievals, it certainly makes sense, you know, it connects all of the dots. So in my mind, it does make sense and it could actually be the, not the final answer, but pretty close to what the crash retrieval program actually looks like, how it operates, how it's so compartmentalized that they don't even know who they're working for. The James Fowler talk about it because again, I missed that Monday morning session. Did he bring up believing Skywatch and what happened? He didn't talk about leaving Skywatch or actually, I didn't even know that was the case. Actually, did he leave Skywatch or? Yeah, back in August, they announced that James had got a role as a contractor with the US government and would be leaving. I think more generally, it's all up there, they all pressed release it, but he took his dog whistle

38:51with him and I think a lot of folks were wearing it back in August that that was the end of Skywatch or but they announced at the time they had a lot of data, they had the psionic assets still and they were ready to move to peer review anyway. So while James Fowler took his ball and went home, I don't think the game finished is what they were trying to say. But yeah, it's interesting he never brought that up. Yeah, I didn't get that impression. So really, he talked about blue, red and other is what he talked about. And so he gave some interesting cases where this is what they were tracking. They had many objects. And so he thinks that, for instance, the drone flap on the East Coast, he thinks that was mostly red systems. So adversary systems essentially, you know, blue being our systems like US western systems and then other being unidentified. And so he thought it was mainly red and then blue systems going out. But then when I talked to Jake,

39:57his argument was you had all of it. So you had possibly red systems, but you also had other systems as well that were just staying there for so many hours that it couldn't be a drone system. You know, there's no drone system that can sit out there for seven, eight hours that we know of. And then his argument was, this is Jake's that blue systems were going to investigate the other systems. So it was, I thought it was an excellent brief. And again, you could see all these, they're publishing or will be published if they haven't already by the Solse symposium. But no, I didn't get that impression at all. They did show, they did give a lot of information on the dog whistle that you bring that up, that it's not just one specific system. And I think I got this more from just reading between the lines of what Jake said in his presentation, is that there, it's some sort of radar technology is my guess. And it's not cheap. So it sounded like

40:58it was expensive government equipment that they're using. But I also don't know if it's like every like you're just turning this thing on and all of a sudden, you appear showing up. I also didn't get that impression. Yeah, in my head, it's like a big box and they flick a switch and it's got a little satellite dish on top of it and they point it in a direction. And it sends out a signal or a frequency and within a short period of time, these things appear. That's in my head what I've built, but they've been very vague about the system. So I get that would be really interesting to go back and hear what James Filler had to say on the equipment. But my understanding is sky watcher no longer have that and what they have is the site of the psionic assets. I think maybe that's it. It's some sort of radar system. Like you mentioned, you know, with the transmitter receiver, different signals. And I think they turn it on. And then maybe possibly something happened. You know, I don't think it's

41:59100% this given technology. I'll tell you what was really interesting. I take away I've got from the event. And I mean, that's in a really good way for me anyway. I would say, and this isn't just the speakers, but high profile attendees aren't all on the same page. But for me, in a positive way, person A and person B that you think might agree with each other or be pushing in the same direction. They don't all have the same ideas and don't necessarily agree with what they're doing completely. And I don't mean that in a really underhanded, nasty, secretive way. But it was like people are still individual and they have different end goals. They've got different methods and skill sets they can bring to help contribute. But if it was me and you, Chris, for example, I might be going, actually, I like what Chris does with this and this, but I don't like how he's approached this because it doesn't make sense to me. I would have done it

43:00this way and I know other folks who agree. But then Chris, you would have folks who agree with you. And like the way you're doing things. But that was a positive for me that you're not turning up to an event at Sol. And it's almost like a cult where everyone is seeing the same thing and doing the same thing. I like when people disagree and can share different opinion because I think that's how you get real progress as opposed to being just an echo chamber where no, we're just going to do this and we all think this. And that's going to get us where we want to be because I think when you hit a dead end or you're running to issues or stonewalling, it can be very hard to pivot and move in a different direction. Yeah, I completely agree. You had very disparate few points. Like Jeff Newsythelli talking to him in the bar and it was amazing getting to meet him. I'm so happy that he's out there and I can't wait to have him on the podcast. Hopefully.

44:01You know, he said the battles just begun. Like that was his argument. Like we just started. Like everyone's saying, oh, it's been shut down. Disclosure Act was closed. So from him, it was, yeah, we just, this thing just got kicked off and now it's really going to happen. I kind of get that impression from Ryan Graves as well. Whereas other people, you know, Carl Nell's speech seemed like opposite from the past. I don't know what was your take on Carl Nell. And I'll bring up the the program here. So we started out with the hunt for nonhuman artifacts near Earth with Dr. Beatrice Villarreal and she was really the star. It felt like she was the star of the Soul Symposium. Was that your impression as well? I think she's got, she's a star of the moment. Yeah. So in it, this, no pun intended, but the stars and where Beatrice was the kind of first, the first speaker, she's obviously hitting the headlines, hitting the mainstream with her work on transients. And I think it's a really, it's quite a simplified

45:07and I use boring in a nice way. Science, but it's really easy to understand and explain to someone like my wife who's not interested in the topic. Here is a picture of the stars and here is the same picture a couple of weeks or months later. Now the stars should all be there. They don't just disappear. But what we're finding is where are these nine stars gone? Where have these gone? Because something was reflecting sunlight and it's not there anymore. So yeah, I think it's a easily digestible conversation for the public. Beatrice is great to listen to. And that's, she's having even some pushback from, she's got two peer reviewed published papers in Scientific Nature journals, but had another one automatically say no. That was archive. I mean, archive said it's not interesting, which is just unbelievable. It doesn't show you right there in the censorship. Obviously, obviously, it's gatekeeping. I mean, archive is supposed to be the freer publication avenue, right? And if it's published in nature, then how is it not interesting?

46:11And I had, yeah, I went out to dinner. I got to go to dinner with her among other people. The, with other Swedes as well, really interesting. And so I got to ask her, you know, because the mainstream view like Anton Petrov, I asked about him because he made a, he made a video shortly after a release and said, oh, it could be just nuclear, right? From when they, they conducted nuclear tests and it would get on the plates because Kodak had that issue. And so I asked her about that. And she's like, yeah, but it has to explain all of the reasons, right? It can't just, so you brought up a good point. It reflects the sunlight. If it's just a radioactive fallout, it should also be there on the nighttime plates. That was the biggest thing and what they're finding is actually it wasn't on the nighttime plates. So it was, it was mainly, you know, statistically, I think it was 67 or 68% was during the day. So that means that it's highly likely that these are reflective objects.

47:11But you don't hear that in the mainstream, right? But Sabine Hassanfelder did make a video saying, hey, this is the best evidence she's seen of UEPs. So I think like you said, it's really, I guess, simple science, but looking into the details, it is very complicated. And there's no good explanation for what these transients are. No, and for me, that's the good way to get more folks involved. In the same sense with the Jacques Vallet case, we are both saying it's negotiating detail, but there will be, I don't know what the jobs would be exactly. I'm going to say scientists and sound really stupid, but, you know, molecular bioingeniors and people like that. And I'm making up a job there probably. But who would find that really interesting that wow, so these these bark samples have incredible amounts of energy. What could have caused that? And that would ignite their interest. In the same way you mentioned any number of mainstream scientists and big YouTube channels who are looking at B2's VRLs work and going, hmm, actually, I think all this flying sauce or stuff is nonsense. This is something I can get behind all because you've you've got photographic

48:15evidence of something being there and then something not being there. And that shouldn't happen. So there's an appetite and an intrigue that gets sparked there from a different element of the scientific community. So yeah, great work from B2's VRL and Dennis Azberg and others who are all doing that. Can I work just now? Look forward to seeing what more comes from that. Yeah, now I kind of already mentioned Carl Delspeat, but what did you think of his discussion on the five good Roman emperors and the analogy to today's disclosure? Yeah, really good. It was one of the first talks of many that got cut short because he had to fire through some some I think Carl needed about an hour just to do his talk and he had 30 minutes. Yep. Interesting way to frame disclosure, I think this is one of those talks that some folks might be looking at what were the big revelations. And I think the answer is there's no revelations. Carl Nell did not turn round and hint at buildings at How's UAP? He did not come turn round and say,

49:16you know, I've seen bodies. It wasn't that type of chat, but he was trying to frame the conversation in the right way. Different way to think about it. I got to ask Carl Nell the first question as well. Again, thanks to Manic of the Q&A and I asked him around his comments last week with Richard Dolan from the new paradigm in situates global disclosure day where Carl Nell suggested that the cycle had ended for disclosure. And I agree with him and I got I asked him to expand on that and he wasn't negative about it. He just felt that people had said what they had to say that there was another way to attack this or perhaps had to be different ways to attack this. And I think tying in what we were saying, speaking to people like Jeff Nussetelian others, I think there's other things happening. If you just take your eye off, you know, we're not going to get that political progress that some were hoping for. It doesn't mean you don't have this group of whistleblowers and I'm going to liken them to like the 300 Spartans who are just going about quietly as a small group

50:20fighting far bigger battles than they can probably manage on their own. But they're going around and doing it quietly in the background and they probably do need people support and help in backing when they when they come forward. Because I think we're going to see probably some other whistleblower come forward before the end of the year. And there are many more in the background just can't bring themselves to come forward publicly yet. So yeah, really interesting talk from Nell, but I got the impression that has has comments about your disclosure being over some folks misinterpreted and it's just that you know it's time to time to change direction. Yeah, I took it as kind of the the opening battle has has ended, you know, basically you had the initial salvo and like how any system grows, you know, there's there's tearing just like your muscles grow, you know, that you have to work them, they're torn, but then there's there's a period of rest where

51:20it reassesses and whatever gains were made, I think you have to take those. So everyone's going back, you know, hardening up their positions, looking at their the battle plans again, restocking the ammo, you know, and I feel like the group is organizing and like Tim Galadette, it was interesting his talk was saying we need an international group that it's not going to be the United Nations who thinks the United Nations is compromised. He mentioned China specifically, but he said we need an organization and he recommended Seoul actually as that organization that kind would would take the charge or at least provide an avenue for everyone to kind of coalesce. So I thought that was interesting. And speaking of that, the next speakers, they had 3 AF Sigma 2, which giving their data from from France. So I know they've had a lot of reports in the past, as well as the general Pierre Bisconde. I was really impressed by his speech. What do you do think

52:23of general Bisconde? Yeah, he was talking about Japan. He's former French Air Force, I've got on my notes here, talking about for him what was interesting is, you know, the testimony of pilots, testimony of radar operators. And he felt that was the path to credibility. Was these folks with the evidence they've got with the data collected? Obviously, he was calling for a disciplined curiosity, I think was his approach. But again, this is the kind of folks where I don't think general Bisconde was wanting to sit and talk about flying saucers coming from different planets. He wasn't wanting to talk about cattle mutilations. He wasn't looking to speak about abductions or experiences. He wanted to talk about, you know, from a military aspect, there's something being recorded. There's something being seen. It's not just happening in the States. It's happening around the world. He has direct experience of it and has previous role. But how do we have that conversation? And I think it was one of those ones where you appreciate that stigma is still there, but there are

53:27very lofty people like a Pierre Bisconde who's trying to have the conversation. But I imagine get shot down in a lot of different ways as respected as he might be. Yeah, then we went to afternoon sessions. Have you had Peter Skeffish on your podcast? Yeah, I had Peter on six months ago, maybe less. Really interesting guy. Yeah, so he's running the sole administration essentially. And so what was your take on the political problems of it? That it was an interesting speech, kind of different from at least what we'd seen so far. Yeah, I think Peter approached us as an anthropologist. It was around the cultural interpretation of contact. And I've got here to compare to you, Peter, this goes to earlier human encounters with the sacred and it was moments where civilizations were defined. And I think he made the argument from his point of view. And again, I appreciate this, almost taking a step back. And folks watching are listening to this are probably already well versed in the UFO topic and

54:31don't need to be convinced. But people like Dr Skeffish are saying, you know, before we prove or disproved aliens, we need to examine how we think about alien in terms of myth, science, religion. There's a lot of data there. But and I got the point here, if contact ever came, would we necessarily recognize it as something trying to make contact with is that we've completely missed? Again, you could look at the work of Beatrice VRL. You know, what's contact attempted back in the 50s. And we missed it either because it was hidden from us or we just don't even realize and perhaps you could go down the logical route now of talking about AI. And is that going to be what what brings on our spurs on human contact? That could be the first non-human intelligence that we come into contact with directly. Yeah, that's a great point. Not human intelligence AI. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I really liked Diana Pusokas presentation as well. Like she called in remote, but it was really interesting and it resonated with me in my own the book I'm working on,

55:37the scalar theory, et cetera. But she talked about Stephen Dick's theories and it's really cosmic evolution. She said on different scales and I was like, it's scalar evolution. You know, that's what my book's about. And then she said on time scales. I was like, oh, okay, on time scales. So not physical scales. But really interesting. What what it was your take on her presentation? I love Diana Pusokas. She wrote the four word for my book that you mentioned earlier. Chris people can go and buy. But she also has her own book coming out called Others, which is available just to give it a plug and that comes out next year. So people can check out Diana Pusokas latest work. But yeah, that parallel between ancient miracles, you know, the miracle of Fatima, various different apparitions have appeared in different places, just being interpretations for angels, demons, aliens, nonhuman entities, spirits. It goes into that kind of conversation. Yeah, I love

56:37Diana Pusokas work and the idea that are are UFOs in a way today's modern miracles? Because you witness something and you have a very personal experience with it that you can't explain that maybe other folks haven't seen or don't get to see that you can't prove that very much sounds like a miracle in terms of those conversations what Diana is having to say. So yeah, it's really interesting chat and I love Diana Pusokas approach to the conversation and I love when she gets to get on the mainstream and have these chats because I think a lot of what we're hearing some of the US politicians representatives in Congress regurgitating, it's a lot of Diana Pusokas theories. Yeah, so she made really interesting parallels between Dr. Dix work and these ancient or not ancient, but old sites, like you mentioned Fatima, there was also she went into detail on a case in Spain where girls are basically levitating. They're basically, yeah, priests in the old times,

57:45hundreds of years ago reportedly levitating and then she relates that to actual modern work done by Dr. Dick. So it's interesting, like I'm happy to see her work is progressing. You know, like Abby Loeb is he's out there, everyone keeps talking about Abby Loeb with 3i Alice, he's gone viral essentially, but his position is kind of essentially the same. You know, I haven't seen it really progress. He doesn't seem like he's moving forward, but when you look at Dr. Pusoka, like her work is continuing to evolve. That's what I find is so interesting. Well, I love her work getting getting towards and on, so getting towards a conclusion. Yeah, instead of saying we just don't know, it seems like she's actually working towards something. So that's why I thought it was was really interesting. Dr. Carl Spozil, he was the physicist, who was, this was amazing. He's like a mainstream quantum physicist who came out and said, oh, you missed that. I missed that one. Yeah, I have an conversation with someone and missed

58:47that. Yeah, that's the thing. So you got all the behind the scenes conversations, but I went to pretty much every briefing I missed Anna Brady estivas. That's the only one I missed by accident. I was talking to Ryan Gray. It's those like, I'm not leaving this conversation. We were talking about flying. He had some pretty amazing missions. He went on. Yeah, but Dr. Spozil, he is funny, man. He was a funny guy. European, I believe he's Austrian quantum physicist. And he's a mainstream physicist. But what he said is we don't know. And he talked to his own mainstream scientists saying we need to actually look outside of the box. Like, start over. Let's look at some crazy ideas. And really, I thought it was a breath of fresh air for the physics community. I'll need to check that one out because I saw folks see that was a bit of a head and gym for them. I think an idea where if you're looking at the names and you fall a day one was probably like the a list. No disrespect to folks. If you're looking from the outside and you say

59:47you have to pick a day, a lot of folks would have picked day one. But again, within that, Karl Spozil is not one of the bigger names in the topic. Yeah, I think that can be where some of the real value and conversation can come from as well. You get different opinion, different thought. And I that's where I like hosting folks like that on the podcast. I think Chris, you'll be the same. Yep. You can get a different conversation that you some of the big names you get soundbites and you get regurgitation. And they perhaps don't like to move off of a certain additive or line. Some like Dr Spozil is a bit refreshing. So yeah, I'd love to speak to them. Yeah, check it out. It's he's really funny too. We made tons of jokes. Great presentation. Yeah, we talked about Jack Vallet and Gary Nolan and Jake Barber. I really liked the presentation. Actually, they were just seated in chairs and it was just a casual conversation essentially with a few slides. And I think we really went through the final results there is that they have tons of data. And now it's just

1:00:52getting the presentation out. But I thought the presentation was really good. If anyone only watches one, I think that's probably the one, you know, I would watch to go and find. Then we move on to Sunday. You mentioned Christian Peters, political realism. I hadn't heard of him. I don't know. Had you interviewed him before? Not interviewed. Not yet. We are arranging a date. But I had heard him speak back in Durham at the University in April where Beatrice V. L. Michael Bolander and others were there too. Yeah, really interesting guy. Interesting. We are framing the conversation. Get you to think a little bit differently as well. I enjoyed that one. I did enjoy it a lot actually. He had points of disclosure that I just I hadn't considered. And then let's international UEP protocols and military conflict Fabio de Mase. So this was day two. I didn't I hadn't really heard of either one of these guys. Did you heard of Fabio de Mase? No, I'm German, German MP. And he was looking at UAP from a policy

1:01:56and economics angle. He mentioned he was quite new to the conversation as well. Okay. Only a couple of years at most. But he seems keen. He I appreciate came from a point of view that we shouldn't believe this to Washington. Why is why is this being left in the hands of the United States? There's a conversation that can be had outside of the United States here, which was which is a good way of putting it. I don't think I don't think folks in the US would be and I don't want to speak for for the country of the United States, but they would necessarily care where disclosure comes from. And if that does come from Europe or somewhere else, great. But yeah, he he talked about you know that if this phenomenon is real, then there's there's huge implications that have to be discussed that have to go through the right corridors of power with the right people. But there's a challenge to to have that conversation at those levels. It's not easy. Yeah, that was pretty interesting because he's a sitting member of parliament and he talked about we should look into UAP and he said no one's looking into UAP whenever he brings it up,

1:03:01no one is interested. That was one of my big takeaways from this from the symposium talking behind the scenes is I guess I thought Europe in many ways was ahead of the US. You know, I didn't think the stigma was higher in Europe than in the US. You know, you had like a meta report or you have three AF sigma. But talking to people, it seems worse. So like you can't even say the word UAP. I talked to a Belgian academic. He works at a university and he said one of the top professors, tenured professor at his university was kicked out was removed just because on his personal time, he was talking about UAPs and how it could be possible. And that was recent. So nobody talks about UAPs. You can't even mention it. And he also worked in the space industry. And he said in the European space industry, you also can't say the word UAP. So it's still like a complete taboo

1:04:03topic. It seems like in Europe. Is that your impression as well? It's taboo. Yeah. Yeah. Europe. Europe. UK. I think I'm okay. Probably the worst for it. To be honest, the worst. Yeah, definitely. A long ways to go still from a... And that's where when I got to speak to the documentary team, I wouldn't name the channel. But when I got to speak to them, because I was speaking to them a few months ago, actually, I've helped them a little bit and just a little bit in the background with some names and contacts. But just to make the point that we've not had a really serious look at this conversation, I tried to mention don't play the ex-fells music, don't have little graphics or flying saucers coming across the screen. I think they did mention there perhaps will be that as an introduction. I don't know. They want to very quickly segue into this, isn't the way it should be looked at and framed. And I said that, I think that the public has seen whether they are interested or not, the public and I'll use that generalisation in the UK has seen the typical UFO documentary, the same footage that they always get shown,

1:05:09the same conversations, the same talking heads. And I think if a respected channel could do it and put it on a respected time with some really interesting folks and positions that people don't expect, I think you could grip the public's imagination in the way perhaps 60 minutes in the United States, a serious programme. When they talked about Dave Fravers, you know, situation that got some people's attention, when David Grush speaks, that got some people's attention, I think there's a way to do it and I think it's baby steps in the UK, but it could go either way. They could go with sensationalism route to get a quick hit and click some views or they could treat it in the right way and do something important. Yeah, I think we need a rebrand and I talked about kind of the second wave of the war, the information war, if you will, starting and I think it'll be led

1:06:09by Asia Disclosure coming out next month where you can really see what works. It's not going to be X-Files music like you mentioned and they're not going to say the word is little green man, which no and even says anymore, I don't even know, but that's still a meme. And you mentioned Michael Bollander, I had not heard of him as well and I thought this was a really interesting, really interesting brief and Wily Striever asked some questions at the end because at the beginning, Bollander seemed like he was, it almost was like, it was a controversial speech because he was going to be against experiences or something and he did kind of say that they need to talk, but he gave the moral reasons why abduction is really crimes against humanity. And he listed just like several Geneva Convention crimes against humanity and abduction clearly fit all of those, all of those requirements to be crimes against humanity. And I even mentioned that one of the abjectees asked why you doing this

1:07:10and allegedly or the abjectee said the response was we have the right to do this. And so I thought that was really interesting. What was your take on, Bollander? I didn't see Michael Bollander. I ended up recording with that documentary crew. So yeah, I missed that. Oh no, that was the Saturday I recorded with him. They asked me to have last minute do some stuff on camera, which is why I missed Carl's Fosil. But on the Sunday, I ended up having to record with Jeff Nussetelli and Dr. Leo Whitley. Yeah, I missed that kind of late morning session before time, Galadette. But you got all this awesome footage. I had no footage. I didn't take any footage. I didn't ask anyone for interviews there. I was just shaking hands, which is not probably what I should be doing. I don't know as the podcaster. It was very difficult, though, to I had all intents to spend my evenings editing and recording, but my days were finishing at 10, half 10 at night. And I was trying to get some sleep. I don't

1:08:12sleep well in hotel. So yeah, it was, yeah, it was difficult to do. But like you say, the networking, if you want to call it that, which was pretty intense all weekend. Yes, definitely. Bollander was awesome. Man, I really, he's a judge right from Germany. And first off, he is retired. So he's able to come out and speak about this. But his main argument was the experiencers need to be supported. Obviously, we need to support them psychologically, physically, however we can. But it is incumbent upon experiencers as well to actually come out and speak about it. It's like they have to, they have to make that step as well. So I think that's why it may have been controversial is how we can bring them out. And you're not going to protect them unless they're more experiencers coming out. It's like the first people through the wrong are just going to get beat down. It seems like any new paradigm shift, such as the whistleblowers. And then Whitley Streiber asked a question at the end. I did record him asking the question. I just happened to be

1:09:16a right next to him, asking basically, what can we do? How can we promote this? And Bollander was saying exactly what you did is speak out like the fact that Whitley made that book, communion as well as many other books in that he's talking about it is bringing the information up, you know, that was basically his main argument. The difficulty with that stuff for me is there are a lot of experiencers who have come forward and they share some share similar stories. Others are wildly differing stories. Where is what's the test for who is genuine, who isn't, where, and this is a delicate conversation I've had with people in the podcast before from medical backgrounds, where do you draw the line with someone potentially with mental health issues that are caused by an experience, genuine experience, or where do you have people who believe they've had an experience

1:10:18because of mental health issues, or you would get an extreme of people downright lying about it. And it's a very difficult barometer because it often is purely testimony. And I don't mean someone showing me a mark on their arm to say, look at these three dots. That's again face value, and I appreciate anyone coming forward. It's really brave to come forward and and share those stories in this day and age. But it's a difficult scientific test or public test to to have that conversation where you tell your story, but it's like my own sighting when I was younger. I can't prove it. I've no videos. I've no marks, I've no evidence. We just saw something and that was it. So you have to choose to believe me or not or shell it for another time. So it's difficult. That experience or conversation, Jack, Valy can present tree bark. You can't present that you were on board a spacecraft and take into a different galaxy and different place. And even some of the language, you know, someone saying that an experience

1:11:22you just told we have the right to do this. Even that whole, it's very human that isn't having a right to do something. Why is that a concept for a non-human species or non-human entity, or non-human intelligence that you would have a right? That to me just sounds like what we would say. So then again, maybe why not have that concept? Maybe it's interpreted in your brain, the right way it's translated. But again, same way I've got issues with folks who say they're coming in 2027. Well, that's fantastic. We've all got the same calendar because, you know, and even then, what calendar are they using based on other religions or other places or other countries? Yeah, there's some issues around that kind of stuff for me in the language and communication because it varies so wildly. How do you study that? What is the barometer? Well, I think the benefit of more data is that you can find large-scale statistical evidence. Yeah. You know, like statistics is our math. It only works if you have at least minimum of 30

1:12:27cases, right? So if you have, you know, below, if your N numbers less than 30, you can't actually use modern statistics with the SIGMAs, etc. You know, it's only valid above 30. But then the higher you go, the more valid those statistics are. So I think scientifically, you can prove with more data. Like Beatriz Villarreal, you know, her data, she had hundreds and maybe thousands of instances where these objects were seen in the sunlight, but not in the nighttime. Yeah. You know, so if you can get to that level of data, you can actually start weeding out, okay, this does actually prove, you know, it does lean to the evidence. You can make a scientific case. And then for, I guess the way I look at it, all the experience or accounts is that it can point us to what the underlying truth or more likely truth could be so that we can actually point our science

1:13:31at it. You know, if all of the experiences talk about telepathic experiences, telepathic communication, now that should lean towards looking to prove telepathic communication. You know, so I think maybe it won't give us the actual final evidence, but it'll definitely lean us in the right direction. And maybe if we can get enough experience or accounts together, you can use large scale statistical tools or artificial intelligence to really nail down to maybe get some some final evidence. So yeah, I just, I just think I imagine that if I asked 100 members of the public, if I rented a hotel for the weekend and put 100 people in 100 different rooms, sat them down with a pencil and paper, didn't let them speak to each other and said, okay, you've got, you've got half hour, I want you to write down as if you've had an alien abduction experience. How similar do you think those 100 stories would be? I have no idea. Probably more similar than I would suspect,

1:14:34but no idea. Even if they hadn't. So I imagine you would see a lot of patterns within them, you can't study that scientifically. That's just a bias based on years of science fiction, movies and books and Star Trek, Star Wars and and just people knowing the stories of driving along a road, saucer flies overhead. So that's where for me a lot of the older abduction cases stand out more, especially like a Betty and Barney Hill, given interracial couple back in back in the day, was not something you wanted to draw your attention to, let alone around an alien abduction. And then why cases like Terry Lovelace, military abductions or things that happen to military personnel, police personnel, pilots, there is an element of, it's different to a member of the general public shagging that conversation because of the aftermath, the investigations, people being separated, redeployed, you know, you appreciate all that kind of stuff happening, it doesn't just happen for no reason. That's where I probably lean a little bit more into that. But yeah, I think if

1:15:35you can get something and study an element of it, whether it is implants or telepathy, if that does leave a distinct marker on the brain, Gary Nolan's talked a lot about that, Kadate Pitaman, element of the brain and it's put perhaps for conception or pre-cognition or telepathy. And some there needs to be something to study that the general public could then be told, no, but here's why there's something to this and why it isn't just a story. Yeah, I agree, that's a great point is at least if you can gather data and come up with some sort of study, some sort of story, like you mentioned there, you can make a hypothesis, right? It seems like kind of now you ask people what is the phenomenon and you'll say, I don't know, you know, or Leslie Kane who studied it for decades will say, I can't even give a hypothesis. So I think just putting something on the board and then going from there, at least you know where

1:16:39you haven't, at least you know where you've looked or to analyze to look somewhere else. So you can work your way back, I'll just say that I mean, classic WWF back in the day, they would work from WrestleMania back a year. So they would say we want the main event of WrestleMania next year to be match, or man versus Hulk Ogan. Okay, but right now their friends, how do we get there? And they would work their way back. Okay, so they have to fight. Why do they want to fight because of this? Okay, how did we get to that? And you can keep working your way back logically. And perhaps that's kind of the way we have to approach a little bit of this. Exactly. Okay, and then so finishing up here, we had Tim Gallaudet kind of mentioned it was fantastic meeting him. Really enjoyed his wife was super nice. What did you get to talk to Tim? I didn't get to talk to Tim. I never actually even saw him around the hotel. So some folks, others not so much. But Tim, I was surprised how charismatic Tim Gallaudet is. And I don't mean that disparagingly. He's very good on stage.

1:17:44He's got a presence. Obviously, he's very tall and statured as well. But he holds an audience. And I enjoyed let you mention Carl's Fosil being funny. And I missed that. Tim Gallaudet had a sense of humor and his presentation and kept bringing it back to really serious points. But yeah, linking data, maritime awareness, undersea data, and patterns of UAP detection over oceans. But he had a laugh with it and he could bring people into the conversation. And that helped the flow for me of his conversation. And yet, urging collaboration between the Navy's ocean science community and civilian researchers. And he talked about the suggesting the phenomenon crosses many domains, air, sea, and space. And that requires unified monitoring. And it has message curiosity is not weakness. It's national security done right. So the idea that you've got compartmentalization across different ways of monitoring different phenomena are the same phenomenon. But they're not all talking. They're not all collaborating. They're not all sharing

1:18:45data. And that's a real mess straight off the bat in that something that has to be fixed. Yeah, I think it just shows the benefits of having a flag officer, you know, all the UAP because I think he's the only American admiral or general actually pushing for this or at least openly talking about disclosure. And that's what I noticed in my career in the air forces from the generals. It was either a one or a zero. You know, they were either just amazing, amazing people, amazing leaders. Like you mentioned, could light up a room. You want to follow them or they were they thought they were general patent. And they were just tyrants. There was nothing in between when I saw as the generals. And it seemed around when I started it was like 50, 50, and then luckily as later in my career was more of the great leaders you want to follow. And he was certainly among the great leader group. You know, so admirals and generals are leaders and they speak,

1:19:49you know, they're speaking, they're used to speaking in large crowds. So I wasn't surprised in the least that his talk was so engaging charismatic. The other person is Jeff News to tell me. And from hearing his speech, it was the same. Like, but he was an enlisted leader, but I could tell immediately that he was a leader and he's used to he's used to talking in front of a lot of people. And he was a leader of security forces. So a lot of those cases when he talked about in Vanderberg when they were getting all these reports, like he was the he was in charge, right? He was the enlisted member in charge who was receiving all these reports. And so he was the the military enlisted leader or at least high up leading the troops on the ground. Yeah. And his speech. Yeah, again, I already recommended. If you're going to watch one, definitely watch Jeff News to tell you I said Jake Barber, but definitely watch Jeff's speech. But the same thing, he's a leader. And I'm really excited that Jeff is is out there. And I see him kind of really leading the whistleblowers here. And yeah, it's

1:20:55pretty pretty impressive. I'm excited. Okay. And then we had just finishing up here. Jacob Hock Misra. So situating UEP within the scientific search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Did you catch that one? Yes, I did. What was your take on him? Yeah, enjoyed it. He's an astrobiologist and climate scientist. He was talking about there being an uneasy divide between UAP and and CETA that search for extraterrestrial intelligence talked about early stigmas still there with CETA. He he talked about his own work on biosegnatures, technosignatures, and argued that UAP should be reframed as part of the same scientific question. Are we alone talked about civilizations perhaps sending? And I like to he could speculate a little bit. He was happy to do that. And I enjoy hearing that that civilizations are sending potentially autonomous explorers. I personally think some of these objects people are seeing. For example, the tic-tac. I don't think has manned in any way.

1:21:55I think it's a drone, but it's something else's really advanced drone. And he got to that idea as well that, you know, our own solar system hasn't been properly searched for artifacts. And you don't know what is coming here, what's came here, or what could be on its way here. And I got to ask him about the TI Atlas situation. And yeah, because I got to make the point that I personally don't think it's anything anomalous. I think a lot of folks online are using it for clickbait and engagement and making up data that isn't there. Same thing happened with the drones. Same thing happened with the drones. Yeah, I don't know how on a daily basis people are going on YouTube and giving updates on TI Atlas daily because there isn't information or data there on a daily basis, unless you're going looking for what you want to see. No offense to anyone doing that. But yeah, I liked him talking about it and the idea that it's for me, I framed it as this is an opportunity to educate the public and scientific community on we have an object coming from interstellar

1:22:57space that we can monitor. We can record that we can get data from are we missing the chance to do that and he was talking about that, you know, essentially are, is this sensationalism side of TI Atlas taking away from the fact that actually this is something really interesting. We could study anyway. And if it turns out to be a UFO, folks fantastic, I'll be really happy. You can throw it back in my face. I'll be as happy as anyone. But I think in amongst this sensationalism or missing an opportunity to do real science on something that might actually contribute to SETI or the UEP investigations down the line. So yeah, really good talk, yeah, I have the same ideas on three. I addless like it's extremely interesting. Third interstellar object that we know about, right, the tail seems to be pointing towards the sun instead of a way like normal comments made of nickel, it's green, etc. But I think this sensationalism is not helping the disclosure effort or the cost. You know, I watched other mainstream

1:24:03YouTubers, educators like Hank Green, you know, he said the same thing when Yemen UAP came out and they showed it at the hearing, he said the exact same arguments I did, like literally word for word, like why why he believes this is obviously a hellfire hitting a balloon, which is what I believe as well. But that's all everyone talked about in the mainstream got millions and millions of views and now it's just an easy setup for arrow to come around and say, oh wait, this is just a, we were doing a hellfire test to see if it could shoot down balloons or drones and now all the sudden all that amazing information with Jeff Newsotelli, right, his evidence or his testimony as well as Dylan Borland and Alex Wiggins, you know, which no one has really talked about. I thought that was amazing. First active duty, you know, witness talking about UAPs in the hearing, but all they're talking about in the public is Yemen UAP. And so I think kind of the same thing of three eyedeless is there's been so much pumping of this online, even from like UFO channels getting

1:25:03hundreds of thousands of views. You know, I see I'm like, that's an amazing amount of views. It turned or something and I see it as the same thing because like if you listen to all the experiencers, they're not saying it arrived on a on a rock or a comet, you know, it's not like a meteor landed. I saw it crash and then all of a sudden I had this experience, you know, it's like it appears out of nowhere. It's interdimensional. For me, it just doesn't seem interesting to be an actual, you know, sort of extraterrestrial event, you know, and it's all of the, yeah, all the reduction accounts don't talk about it like this. Yeah, it's really important. You mentioned as well. It's the third interstellar object we've examined and it's got some unique properties. That's fine. That's how science works when it's your third. But if you go to Hawaii with the family Chris and you get off the plane and for the first two days it rains nonstop and you get back on the plane and go home and declare that it always rains in Hawaii and the weather's terrible.

1:26:03You can't make a judgment off of two days. So this is the third object we have and people are saying because it behaves differently to the first two of which we haven't even less data on than this. That doesn't mean that this is how these objects commonly behave. I've seen, and I don't pretend to understand this. I have to take it face value. But I was on LinkedIn and looking at some scientists talking about the eye atlas and they broke down quite simply even for me. Why it's changing color or why it's doing what it's doing when it passes a part of the sun that will, yeah, because the sun's heat is on one side of it. So what it's doing is changing the chemical composition given the heat on one side and that's why this and I'm okay. I don't know if that's true or not, but it makes sense. I don't think they'd be making that up. But what I don't see is, oh, NASA are hiding that the eye atlas has moved. Are they? Where are you getting that from? There's a lot of people. Unfortunately it happened with the drone flap as well. A lot of people making stuff up and when we find out this is just a comment, just a comment, a really interesting comment that should be

1:27:06studied for loads of reasons and have people's interest. The same people and channels will just move on to something else, more clicks, more nonsense, more BS. But yeah, that's the way of the world at the minute. Yeah, they talked about it could be proof of non-gravitational acceleration, which I think is it could be proof of that. But that would show our understanding of physics is incorrect, which I've been arguing now for a long time. That wouldn't show or prove that there's aliens or extraterrestrial, you know, NHI that created it. It's just such a human concept that, oh, they're going to come here in a giant rock. Are they going to send this object through when all of the accounts that we've had are this thing flies in faster than light speed. There's no sonic booms. It's not interacting with the matter in our atmosphere, etc. So, yeah, I just completely agree on that. I see a building up and we're going to have another letdown

1:28:09where it's just going to come out, oh, this is just a comment. Everyone I talked is, if they find out I'm investigating UFOs or aliens, what do you think of three Iatlas? That's what's going to be. Now we're just going to look like, I don't know, I don't think it's going to help. So I missed Anna Brady, S2S. Did you get to see her? She was awesome at the the DC briefing. I thought was amazing, actually. I got to see about half of that point. Before I was pulled out the room by someone, not in a bad way. I get that some folks feel uncomfortable with the discussion around funding and money and a lot of talk around venture capitalism and getting billions of dollars into different funds. But I imagine to really progress this forward in a lot of different ways. Before and after disclosure events, you're going to need big companies to get on board and she's trying to do that early,

1:29:10a bit of an early adopter to the UAP scene. So yeah, I didn't get the end of the talk. I know Jonathan Bertie was part of this as well. Sorry I got to miss the end of that. But yeah, again, I got pulled out the room. I didn't even realize it was going on. Just last track of time, tell more stories with Ryan Graves, which was awesome. But I was disappointed that I missed it. She was amazing. And I think everyone talks about funding. You get all these comments. I'm sure you get the same that were cryptors or whatever in the space. But we're not like the amount of money is I think people would laugh or cry that everyone needs funding. Actually, it takes a lot of time, energy to do this and how are you supposed to make a living or pay for food if you're not making any money spending all your time and energy like for Skywatcher

1:30:13or for any of these scientists looking into this when it's stigmatized on their personal time. And just look at mainstream science. Everything in mainstream science, they're completely funding captured. They all talk about losing their funding. And Abby loves, he's been one of the few that is actually able to secure funding, but they're still having issues securing funding. Because anyone working for you is just you're paying them and all that money coming in is going to be through donations, et cetera. So I was I'm I think that's would be a huge breakthrough if you can secure venture capital or point the capitalist machine at this problem. I think that would be amazing. And that's why can I just make a point? That's why an organization like Skywatcher is able to do what it's done this year because they used connections through the salt conference with Alex Clocus and others. And that's what those events are there for for people to get involved and investing in different projects and in ventures. And that's why Skywatcher has that private

1:31:15funding, which I'm glad they have. They're not asking the public for money or trying to sell tickets or or make documentaries for for money. Not that they can or shouldn't or people have an issue with that. I know. But I just like the fact is privately funded that they can do that and they have less less to answer to the public and can perhaps maybe do the work in a way that they couldn't had they needed to ask for public money. So yeah, it's nice to see that kind of private funding coming in. It's interesting to see that they seem funded as well. Like the two organizations that seem at least sort of funded is Galileo and Skywatcher, which I'm yeah, which is I think great. Yeah, it's who we want funded. And then they had Robert Pinote. He talked about magenta and he actually did the original investigation on magenta, you know, the crash in 1933 that David Grush mentioned. Yeah. So what did you think of his case? I was hoping for some more details on magenta actually.

1:32:16I missed this one as well. So I got back in for the one before with Michael Valleon. And I felt a little bad for Michael because Michael has a very strong and this is coming for me a very strong French accent. And it was a little difficult to understand at times. It was the end of day two. I think for a lot of folks, they were at this point very keen to go and speak to each other. There was a lot of conversations going on outside. People were going for drinks. People were going to the like the bar, different restaurants. I think it'd been a kind of full on two days. And the room was not full for this one. And it kind of emptied as it went along. I don't know if you noticed that. Yeah, I was in there. It was I agree. Yeah, unfortunately it was difficult to understand. I felt a little bad for him. Yeah. And again, as someone with an accent, I appreciate that and to stand and do what he was doing. It was very dry. And there was a bit of an accent barrier. I'm not going to lie. Which I think you could just see people maybe one every 20

1:33:20seconds got up and go. So yeah, perhaps, yeah, just a timing thing there. But um, signs. Yeah, the Robert Penoetti. That was interesting. So when he talked about, he actually investigated magenta and he went through all of the investigations he's done across the US. Oh, really, he seemed like kind of the hero UFO investigator of Italy is this guy Roberto Penoetti. And he looks like Joe Pesci actually. So the whole time, that's like all I could think of was was Joe Pesci, the the UFO investigator. But yeah, I wish I do wish he had a few more details. But magenta was really close. It was on the way, basically from Milan down to Lago, majority. And I know Tim Godette had a picture of where that took place that event was. Yeah, I think there was meant to be initially an excursion or trip as part of the event to the area.

1:34:25But I think it might be one of those that what can you really say or see there other than point to a piece of land and say this is allegedly where something landed. Or was recovered. Yeah, there was a funny. I went to take a picture of Tim Godette's picture that he took. There was an alien painted on the wall. You flashed in the middle finger. Yeah, but then he changed the slides. So I lost it. So the final person we haven't spoken about that was on day on Monday was Eawightly. And I know you had a you had an interview with her. So what's your experience with Eawightly? I hadn't I didn't know of her before this. Yeah, really a wonderful person to speak to. She was someone who in the last year, people like Gatine Olin, Steven Brown, Diana Pousselca have mentioned her to me either on recording or off recording to say this is someone you should speak to. And I don't know if you're like me,

1:35:27Chris, I write things down on an opad beside me as guests are talking. So I'll I don't always go back to my notepad. And then months later, I'll be looking through something and it'll be like Chris later. And I'll just have someone's name underneath. And I'll be, oh, they must have mentioned this person to speak to. So yeah, really interesting conversation. I think especially around the, she's a space and aviation psychologist. So deals with pilots astronauts around dealing with the kind of the things that they deal with as part of their jobs, which are obviously you'll know incredibly much better than me. But also how that works with contact, UAP, talking about integration for UAP, expedient source supporting pilots, supporting folks who have these kind of interactions. And she also does work on breath as a bridge, was the talk around breathing exercises and how this can open up communication or the potential path to experiences, different states and whatnot. So again, I wasn't there on the Monday morning, but I did get to speak to you the day before. And I did just

1:36:30interview her like three weeks ago. So folks want to check that out on my channel. Really interesting personality and wonderful to speak to as well. Yeah, I thought it was interesting because in the final years of my career, they were, I wouldn't say pushing, but presenting how to deal with the mental stress of combat. When you get really in the serious, serious hairs of combat, and then how can you maintain performance and cool composure, when people are screaming on the radio or screaming in general. And they talked about meditation and doing these kind of breath exercises and that these sports teams were having success doing this as well, football teams, etc. doing these very brief meditation exercises. And I actually, I tried it on a few training missions that we had with multiple aircraft. And when I felt myself getting stressed, you can tell by your radio calls initially or if someone's a mission radio calls or you're missing checks or

1:37:32radio calls, that's that's an indication that you've gotten behind. And I tried it there and just do to reassess and you just do try and clear mind breath, you know, two or three short breaths and then do a short meditation. And it worked. Actually, I felt much more cool. Can get back into the mission. And that seemed like what she was talking about exactly. So breath, breath exercises or considering this as help to experience her is from what I understood. But it was really the first time I heard it. So yeah, I thought that was interesting. That's amazing. And so that we covered everyone. So I hope people thank you so much for your notes. That was awesome. And I hope people enjoyed it. Did you have any last personal notes that you took away from the trip or we change anything and how you approach this topic moving forward? You know what, I think there are a few ways that I'm thinking about some things

1:38:34a little bit differently, which is good. I think I was I was hopeful beforehand. I'm going to go to the conference and come away, like I don't know if reenergized or with kind of refreshed with some of the topic because I do appreciate people get a little beaten down with it and the UEP disclosure act failing can be something that people are frustrated about. Age of disclosure, taking so long to come out and didn't miss its window, things like that potentially. But genuinely came away from it, excited about where things might be going that there are people doing good work. I think folks really need to focus on the whistleblowers and what they are doing right now in the background and appreciate that well, you might not be hearing from them immediately. They are working hard. They are getting retaliations and threatened and they're having issues and they probably could use people's support. I think even sometimes whether it's on X or LinkedIn or Instagram or a YouTube comment, which I'm sure Chris, you appreciate as much as I do below videos, just for folks to say thank you to Jeff Nusatelli, thank you to Dylan Borland,

1:39:39thank you to Amath, you're brown, thank you to Asera Gam, just so they see these comments because they get a lot of shit off of people and they get a lot of hard times. And for me, that was that was really a pattern coming away from it. And this week I've got for my own podcast, I've got Gary Nolan on with me, so we're going to be going through some of the Saul Fallout and also yeah, where things are going to go from here. And Richard Dolan as well, forgive me for plugging the podcast, but I've got a couple of big names this week. So yeah, and I'm hopeful for those who like a little bit more of the other side of the conversation. I've got Joe McMonagal, remote viewer, he should be coming on this month as well, I've not mentioned that at all yet, so we're in touch and I'm hopeful. So yeah, some big names this month, but off the back of that Saul conference, I'm confident that things are moving forward. A new mentioned age of disclosure, I'm hopeful that given some of the big names and influencers online who are picking

1:40:43that up, I imagine because they're friends with Dan Farah and whatnot, but people at Pat McAfee, who I know from WWE, and I know he's an NFL guy, he's tweeting about it, a lot of celebrities are as well, hopefully it helps. I will just say I'm wary, it's a little bit dry, I know people who have seen it that South by Southwest, I don't know how much that'll capture the public imagination, however, hopefully it gets out there and even just some clips can go viral from it because I think in this day and age, Chris, you'll appreciate you can do a whole two hour interview, it could be the best interview you've ever done, but everyone talks about a 10 second clip. So maybe that's what comes from all the work through age of disclosure, but I'll be buying it, I'll be supporting it and I think we're in for an interesting end to the year. Yeah, that's a great summary Andy, that's why you have such a successful UFO podcast, so that you have full podcast, check it out. I had the same takeaway on the whistleblowers and it's not just they get a lot of shit from the general public,

1:41:44like they can't even get a job at Home Depot as Jim was talking about, so a lot of these whistleblowers are really in dire straits, and it's great to see Jeff speaking out about this and such a passionate and yeah, empowered way, so I just I'm really excited that he was there, and for me it just feels like now we're in between waves and the next wave of the information war is about to start, and like you said, there's so much going on behind the scenes, and that's what I took away from you know, the off off speech comments and discussions was yeah, there's there's a lot going on, and it's it's not going to stop, and so I was just so happy to see and new people getting on board, people that only been interested in this in maybe a year or two years, I was surprised a lot of the people that came up and said hi to me had only been interested in this topic in the past year, but they're still motivated, and so hopefully that doesn't wane as they get their

1:42:44head beaten against the wall in this topic, so thanks man, thanks for coming on, and amazing shows coming out, I'll be happy to hear them and watch on to anytime, thank you, cheers