Inside the FBI Hostage Rescue Team | Kyle Vowinkel

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1:00So, the HIV come, the assaulters come, vehicle right up the front and it's a shootout around start coming. Both ways, we're shooting him, they're shooting. And we have whatever guys could shot really badly on the porch. It gets too right underneath the vest. He goes down to a knee. Same guy with, then is right there the window. He stands in front of the window to obscure fire fires. The guy, well, two other guys go grab him, move him off the porch. Yeah, you know, get him around the corner and they start providing him medical care until the ambulance can pull up. So, there's a longer, like 20 minute fire fight. Going back and forth. He then, at one point, sheds his open the front door, sheds his wife out. It's like holy moly, there's another. Persuading stuff. Yeah. Okay, folks, welcome to the teamhouse. I'm Jack Murphy. And we're very happy to have in studio

2:00our guest today, Kyle Voenkel. He's the author of Shaping Chaos. It's a new book about leadership, but also it infuses some actual lessons from your career. He spent 25 years at the FBI. And very interesting. He's a very good guy. He's a very good guy. He's a very good guy. He's the Deputy Secretary. And we've got multiple writers ready. Even so, Fred and Dave were, kinds of students working, a moving team members at our campaign or a Chinese people. and some other stuff also present for the Boston Marathon bombing, Aftermath, and the Alabama Bunker Boy Rescue, that HRT and CNU participated in successfully rescuing a kidnapped kid.

3:00So there's a lot to talk about here. And thanks for being on the show, Kyle. No, thanks for having me. Yeah, fortunate, surely to be part of some successful teams and some exceptional work. Yeah. So take us to the beginning. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up and what kind of like interested you in at first the Army. Group in San Diego, right next to Miramar, Top Gun, Jets, Roar and Overhead. My dad was a Naval avid or Vietnam. So very patriotic city. And I grew up in the 80s watching like Rambo, Red Dawn, and Rocky. Love those movies. So much so. My brother and he was older. Like we would dress up in play army. We went to the old like surplus stores, bought camouflage fatigues. And I imagine you're in the city. Like we 14 year old boys wearing full camo, plastic guns. We had spray paint black. So they looked real. We came up our face and we walked down the middle of the street to the canyon. Four or five dudes, you know, people call the police. We never get out of our house.

4:00Yeah, yeah. So we kind of loved playing army if that makes sense. Even though we're in a Navy town with a Navy dad, oh, they went in the reserve after his activity time. And that was alive when he's in Vietnam. But a group in that community and my dad really modeled that service to country. But I was kind of a rebellious kid. I argued a lot with my mom. I got in the hands of twice. But the police got in five car crashes. So that's your introduction to law enforcement. Exactly. And my dad, he actually worked for San Diego PD for a couple of years and crashed. Yeah, five of my parents cars. And that was not a good kid. So when, I mean, did the army come about because, you know, a judge or maybe your dad were like, yeah, you're destined for military service? Good question. No, my parents suddenly thought I could possibly end up in jail. Because I would sneak out of the house. And like, we would never do anything seriously wrong.

5:03But we're like snuck in the community pool and, you know, swam it like midnight on like Sunday night. Again, doing no destruction. Did destroy some pumpkins, one Halloween. That was the first time I got handcuffed. You know, we took somebody's pumpkin and destroyed it, which we should have done. And, you know, cop took me back and cuffs to my parents. And thankfully was ever written up. Sorry, my mom and dad. So that was my first time. The second time was senior ditch day. You know, the cops came to senior ditch day and, you know, broke it up. So I was never placed in detention or actually, it's they never taken in custody of the jail, but just on site. And my brother was two and a half years older. And he went to West Point. He got in and it wasn't until I visited him like my sophomore year high school. And I saw the Academy grounds. And more importantly, I saw the cadets and like the discipline, the kind of tribe the military was, the cohesion, the morale and that a spree decor. And I, that's that's why I decided.

6:03I want to be part of that because I really was kind of a wayward youth. Like I said, so that that was really the impetus for me to apply. But again, it was pretty foolish. Shout down as I, that's the only school I applied to was West Point. Again, my mother and father could have throttled me. And I, you know, just barely got in, got my congressional nomination. And it was because I visited my brother and seeing again, the cadets and the, and the campus. So. And so this is in the late 1980s. Yeah, 1989, I reported. 1989. And how did you take to West Point in that regimented way of life? Not good at all. Because I actually, I remember I had teachers even tell me during the parent teacher, teacher conferences, senior year telling me and my mother, there's no way Kyle's going to make it at West Point. Because I was actually a class clown too. So not a liberal, but I, I want to make people laugh and I go to West Point. And it was a total culture shock. And I knew it was going to be regimented, but I didn't know that it's so regimented like your toothbrush has to be pointed one way in the door and

7:03your toothpaste lid has to be pointed the other way. Like it's down to that level of detail. Again, understandably so now in hindsight, but then as a Polish 18 year old, I can't stand it. So actually, I got to, I got to trouble several times. We had Army Navy week is like the biggest week of the year. The closest West Point ever gets to real college. Is that week? Because everyone's so kind of pumped up to beat Navy. It's the biggest football game in the year. Of course, the biggest sport event for West Point for sure. And we had a jockstap rally on the plane of West Point. The superintendent told us don't do it. Of course, me and like 200 of my classmates go out there anyway. It's like midnight. So no one's going to see it. No public's going to see it. But we got midnight on Thursday. You know, and we do a quick, you know, go Army chant beat Navy. Then we run back and I was tackled and caught. And I got called, I got the regimental board. Like a really serious disciplinary like 60 area tours. We were marching back and forth. That's the system they had. And it was just brutal. So yeah, the first semester I was getting not a good cadet.

8:05Because I just I didn't like being told what to do. And I was kind of rebel against authority. How long did you have to spend every night marching? Well, they only let you do five hours a week. So it was only like two hours on a Friday and three on a Saturday. But you'd have to spend like an hour or two preparing all your stuff. Because you'd have to brush shine your brush, shine your shoes. So even those only five hours are really eight up like seven or eight. And then you couldn't like go out even off campus, right? When you restricted, you're doing the area to receive. So that's sitting your room. So you can march off like I said, again, five every weekend. So what do that work on? We're going to get 12 weekends. But that's not so. Social life is not a positive. I think the West Point. I in from West Point, you branched into the military police. Oh, and what why don't you tell us about kind of your introduction to the FBI while you were at West Point. So there's another cadet. There was a law enforcement tactics club there. And the cadets dad was an FBI agent. And I was had heard about the FBI growing up kind of thought it was cool.

9:07And excuse me, that dad took us and fellow members to the FBI range one day. We went shooting. In fact, wow, this is really interesting. How the FBI runs a range now the military runs a range. And a few months later, we went to the tactical emergency vehicle operation course, T-Voc and Wal-Kill New York. The FBI driver training used to be there. And we got to drive cars, you know, super cool, you know, driving cars fast and, you know, skin around. And it's just like a light bulb on me, a light switch like the military is so regimented. And it need to be. And I also thought about the officer career path was not you didn't get to be, you know, shooter per se or really do the fun stuff for that many years as an officer career. But I learned you can be an FBI agent in your entire career. You never had to go higher. You never had to move transfer either. You could say in one place, do one job for 20 years. And that really appealed to me. So I decided at West Point, I'm going to try to go on the FBI. So that's why I chose my branch military police, try to make myself more competitive in my subsequent, your application.

10:10And so how did you like, I mean, in retrospect, being a military police officer? It was not my favorite job. I enjoyed the people I worked with, but the mission, you know, patrol in the streets and enforcing, you know, road, track road regulations. I didn't enjoy that at all. I did get to deploy. I was with the first cover division at Fort Hood, most of my time. So we got deployed a full eagle, the 30 day to Korea. That was really enjoyable. I went from Puson all the way up to the DMZ. And that was my first deployment overseas. And then went to get Mo for six months to with the Haitian and Cuban refugees. And that was kind of interesting because there was one when the president said they're not going to let any of those refugees back in the States. Was this like the Muriel boat lift or is it after that? It was after that. Yeah, because that was Cuba. Yeah. But there's still like, it was like 20,000 refugees separated in several

11:12camps. And I was a first intent. So I had a camp of maybe 2500 Haitians. And when they got news of that, like riots broke out, like no shit. We had to evacuate our positions inside the camp. They were sharpening tent poles and they were a little juice cans. They were those little orange juice cans like four or five ounce. They were filled with rocks throwing them at soldiers. That was the first time I had to lead an element like in the harm's way. And I was so nervous because we again, we'd evacuate our positions. The Haitians are running a muck. We had, you know, hard perimeter units established in Humvees with Mark 19's and 50 cows. So they weren't exiting the camp, but we still to go back and take control of camp. So, you know, all the junior tennis myself, we're all looking at it like, what are we going to do? Get up. And then, you know, the Italian commander, of course, makes a call. We're going back in. Go get all your right. You're on and your troops and you're leading your platoons back in. That was the first time I've ever like put on that heavy right gear, which is super

12:15heavy to like talk about none. Not that any gear is ever comfortable, but it just really difficult to maneuver and lead. And I remember I have a troops who are looking at me and I was nervous for the first time, like sincerely thinking crap. Like this is on my shoulder now. All everyone's lives is in my hands. And I don't know what I'm doing. Like I don't know how to take back a camp. You know, and we just said, we're going to get in line. All right. And just we had our sticks. No weapons right because we're not taking Websters on camp and just formed a skirmish line and there's just shields and sticks. Yeah. Shield sticks and just once up at a time and they're throwing shit at us and thankful. They wasn't, wasn't serious. Made like we weren't getting into physicals, but I was definitely nervous. So we're first about to enter. Have you ever heard the story about the MPs that got into something similar down in Panama? No. It's like kind of like a, like for some people, it's an urban legend. This really happened. I think it was a Cuban refugee camp in Panama.

13:18And they revolted and the MPs got sent in, you know, to kind of squash it. And some of those guys, I wish I could remember the exact unit. I remember their nickname was the Wildcats, those of Platoon. And they described it like they were like the Roman Legion. Because these like volleys of rocks were just coming, just pelting, like mess them up real bad. So they kind of got pushed backwards as I recall. And then that night the MPs went in there with second-range battalion. And they all had baseball bats and ax handles and got their satisfaction. Tune them up. Tendfold from what I've been told. Yeah. I've not heard that story yet. That's, I know some people who are there. Like that's no shit in your story. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, it was not a, so what was the result of that feel for you? The camp riot.

14:18Learning right that leadership is about projecting confidence. Even when you're not confident inside, right? And I say leaders lend their nervous system. Right? Because everyone looks at that leader. Even if you're second or first lieutenant, all the 30 troops. We're looking to me to be composed. Right. For me not to be highly emotional and to make decisions and be right there with them. I'm saying they're right, right side by side. And I'm not showing any fear even though inside I'm tiny bit nervous. So that was the most important thing I realized is that it's okay to be a little bit nervous. But for your troops and for the mission, you got to say composed and again, because you lend your nervous system to the everyone and they're going to feed off you. Yeah, yeah. And if you start panicking, they will. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it runs like wildfire panic. And same thing too. It's calm, cool, collected. Then generally, that would be calm, cool, collected. So I take it. You guys got the camp under control itself. We did. Yeah. We we marked in there and so we got within 10, 15 feet.

15:19You know, they scatter and they're big talkers when we were outside the fence. So as soon as we came in, then it was, it wasn't that rough to take it back over. So as you're kind of like ending your time in the military, you're already thinking about the FBI. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So what was like the application process like for you? Well, I've known tonight's school. Oh, you know, the given master's degree. Was that required? No, not required. But I just want to make myself more competitive. Now with the Ranger school, I wanted to test myself there and jump school. So those were good. I pushed me kind of testing grounds to kind of prove myself and see if I like that. Kind of special or higher level units. And I really did. And then I applied it like the year three and a half mark. You know, I have a five year commitment for West Point. And the bureau accepted me. Or excuse me, the bureau sent me a letter of rejection.

16:20And again, I'm a master's degree, West Point successful officer. And I was stunned because I've been really prepared for five years with an effigient and I as afforded by a process through the San Antonio F.A. Office. And so the next afternoon, I could get off. I drove down there personally to the affluent coordinator. And I just said, how can I make myself more competitive? And she said, Oh, what's your name? Kyle, the Michael, she goes to it's like paperwork back then. She finds my application. Oh, here we are. You were placed in the least competitive pile of paperwork. You should have been placed in the most competitive. So literally had I not drove the two and a half hours there kind of challenged that, you know, verdict that I wasn't competitive enough, I never would have had this career and I would never would have done anything. It's crazy. Yeah. So thankfully I was able to fix the clerical error or she was able to fix the clerical error. And yeah, I got it four years, nine months started a colonico. Wow. And so this was 2001.

17:22If 98 I got out. Okay, it was not okay. Gotcha, gotcha. So 98 you were going through the FBI Academy. And was it what you had hoped it would be? Yeah, I really top notch intellectual people, but compared to, you know, range of school or at what's point it really was not physically. It wasn't the physical challenge rule can for it. It wasn't physically challenged. And I knew that it wouldn't be exception physically challenged. I was hopeful it would be even more. Well, I remember we had, you know, the physical fitness test is a baseline, like very easy, I don't know, 16 minutes, two miles, maybe even 17 minutes for basic new agents. And you know that before you get there, you have to pass the PGS before you get there. And everyone takes the day one to PGS and this guy failed. He did like 20 minutes or actually didn't even finish like the last lap. And so the end of day one training, right? This is first day at Quantico. Some of my classmates said, Hey, let's go cheer on. And you know, John, he's going to finish his last lap.

18:23And I said, well, why are we going to cheer him on? He failed the PT test. He knew the standard coming in. And the guy's leaving. He's going to be kicked out of here, deservedly so. And like I got like a disagreement like I'm off of cheering on the P lawn, but he didn't meet the standard. But that was kind of mentality of some people. Cause the Bureau invests a lot in you to get there. And they wanted to keep there. But he he was kicked out rightfully. So yeah, yeah. But his introduction to different different. Different points. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. More of a gentleman's course. Yeah, I can't. But yeah, 16 weeks. Good really good farm straining. I enjoyed that. What do they call it? Is it Hogan's alley? Yeah, Hogan's alley has the most robbed bank in the United States of America. The bank of Hogan. Because almost every day, you know, mock. Or you know, actors are staging mock, you know, bank robberies and the new agents respond. It's really kind of fun to go and observe and watch the. That's like that FBI's bread and butter, right? It's bank robberies. Well, not the rent butter, but it's just the, uh, what the violation kind of start

19:26off with the bank robberies really got a kind of name on the board. Uh, and then you got assigned to LA. Yes. So I was super excited. I, you know, was going to work, uh, violent, Columbian gangs. So a Quantico and week six. They say it's a blind monkey throwing a dart at the assignment board, right? Cause you get to kind of put in either the fifth, the fifth, six offices where I'd like to go. But then the joke is it's a blind monkey. Just throws it. You get whatever. But I got LA. It was my top 10. So I was happy and I got Columbian gangs. Well, I thought perfect. I want to kick down doors, but these, you know, Columbian gangsters away for a while. And literally day one, I set up a show of an LA. I'm super excited. And I go see my, you know, assistant, especially at charge. And he says, Kyle, uh, congratulations. You're working counterintelligence. I said, what? I've told I was working Columbian gangs. Nope. Knees of the bureau. I said, Roger that. You know, I'll do whatever. So it took me like six months to figure out how to work a case and find the bathroom.

20:31Uh, what kind of CI cases does LA have? So LA has a lot of defense, you know, industrial, aerospace assets and yes, in universities, they're doing some research and, you know, a lot of foreign entities are trying to collect. I believe that advance research. So actually there's a lot of good work in LA. I really enjoyed that counterintelligence working. And I joined the, tried out for the LA SWAT team there. Uh, with some great professional there. So we did all a high risk, a res warrants in LA. And it got to do some pretty cool gigs. We, for example, before I go on, do you just want to explain to folks out there when you say the LA SWAT team, it's the SWAT team that belongs to the LA field office. Correct. And it like, you know, because when people think of SWAT teams, they probably think it like cities, but like the FBI has their SWAT guys also. Yes, there's 56 FBI field offices across the United States. And actually each one has their own SWAT teams for those federal warrants.

21:32And then, and I think it's nine offices. It's a regional or enhanced SWAT team. So they get extra training days, extra resources. And LA was one of those enhanced teams. So we would travel more and help support like other field office like Phoenix, maybe to do a larger arrest operation. We'd send a team from LA to go support them. So I was on LA and a very good reputation. Former HRT guy was the team leader there. And actually I wanted to try out so badly that he had to be an age of her one year. Any office right in the trials were like 11 months and two weeks. Right. So like two weeks shy. I go to see him. I said, Hey, you know, there's my background. I've always wanted to be on SWAT. I want to go to HRT eventually, but I want to do my time in LA SWAT. There's my background. Can I try out? And he says, how much time do you have in 11 years? He says, well, we'll see you next year. Like that quick. And that's fine. That's a standard. I'm a standard. So I would have weighed another year. But I enjoyed LA was a great bunch of guys.

22:32And we got to do some cool arrests, manhunts for some cop killers. That was my first time going on those. And that's one of the more heightened emotional operations. When you know you're going to have someone who's already, yeah, not just committed homicide. He's killed the cop. And so those were the ones that you really almost get emotional thinking about. Because you know, you want almost revenge. And you got another revenge. You know, it starts a cloud of the judgment. And we get to emotional. It was an LAPD officer who was, I think it was LAPD officer was killed. And we're supporting them do another, you know, go on other target locations, start to find this guy. But I remember that I was first time, another time I was there. I remember we got to control the emotions. You let the motions control you. And that's when you make mistakes. Clouds your judgment. Were you normally trying to like get, you know, scoop these guys up when they're in their bed down site for the night. They're going to sleep and absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

23:32We'd ideally if it was a super high risk, we could get a nighttime service warrant, which means we could go in like three or four a.m. But sometimes we couldn't get that. So we go right at six a.m. Gotcha. But that meant, you know, three m, you know, we meet at the robbery point three m to the briefing. We're rolling at five thirty. So we are literally knocking on that door at six a.m. And most people, the criminal type are still asleep at six a.m. And so I mean, if, uh, if the guy is a violent felon, a cop killer, they won't let you explosively breach or both mechanically breach the structure. No, we can mechanically breach. Okay. Expensive breaching and FBI reserve solely for HRT. Gotcha. So when I was on HRT, I was a breacher and used explosive, but not on the LA. Shopping for a match can get overwhelming fast too many options, too many opinions and no clear way to tell what's actually right for you. That's why Ghostbite built their online mattress quiz. It's quick, it's simple and it helps narrow down the right ghostbite mattress based on how you actually sleep.

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30:03So as after we're done, like we've done our official gigs and he invites, hey, you guys want to come? Anyone who's coming to you know, after party. I said, well, yeah, let's let's go. So me and several guys went in there and he went up. So like pumped up excited beer, thinking like this is cool. Like, you know, my young F.E. agent and they walked through the door and then Courtney Cox walks right towards me. I thought, holy, holy moly. And she goes, excuse me, where's the bathroom? You know, talk about the ego, you know, going from like cloud nine to cloud zero. I was just thought that she was like a white staff, right? My touch either, even though it was a random nice touch, it was nowhere nearer. Yeah. Another funny story. There's a marine buddy of mine. He's so funny. He and I were chatting, you know, this girl and she goes, what do you, what she was asking us? She like wrote screenplays or something and she goes, what do you ask us? Excuse me.

31:04She said, tell me about you two and my buddy Bruce goes, well, you write movies about guys like us. But it still like great lines ever heard. So I'm like, falling over laughter. And then her boyfriend apparently sees us, you know, talking to her girl. We didn't know she had a boyfriend at the time, but he comes over and you know, Bruce is talking to the girl and she goes, oh, this is my, he says, all my name is John. I'm her boyfriend and he goes, oh, nice to meet you, Jay. You know, attention says the wrong name and he goes, it's John because whatever. Bruce and I had a couple of drinks and so it's, I was another napkin. It was just some funny, you know, banter with a Hollywood type. So we left, but that was the golden globe for me. Any other crazy LA stories that you can share? There's a lot of good operations that we did out there. We're a pretty active team and we did a nice Trojan horse one.

32:09We were in a FedEx at school then, although it was several hours, you know, we're waiting on target and you know, all kidded up and it's hot. And it couldn't be running because the, you know, when the loaded neighbors, that was pretty good because we had to wait till the target was home. And then go rush. So we got to do some cool daytime ops. So the most of them were 0 6 the morning, but that was, that was something there. So one other ones we've hit. We went to Cheetah's strip club in Vegas. I wouldn't know. I know what meant like that. I trust what you're telling me though. And this is kind of interesting. So again, we drove from LA to Vegas and I forget the exact charge. I can bezzling and some other issues, but they wanted to do it when they released them out of customers and you release them out of customers and strip clubs around noon, you know, like a Tuesday. So we drove them up there and we're fully in FBI attire. We go and, you know, raid the place and there's dancers on stage and we're, you know, I just was talking about surreal.

33:13Like there's a naked girl, you know, on stage, real FBI put your hands up. And then, you know, guys are talking about scattering to the winds because they're caught, you know, a litter with some of their pants down. Super awkward seeing the reaction, but hey, we're, and we're going after the owner of the club. We're going after the patrons and the dancers at all, but we had to secure them and, you know, search them, you know, even the dancers are going to pass down quick, make sure there's nothing. And then you care that professionals are good, but I've ever, I go to the bathroom and like seeing the trash can fall like condoms and I was like so discussing this. So you guys hit it because there's like all kinds of prostitution going on in this place. Yeah, but, but they, there was some with the books and the taxes and bezzling from the office. So we wanted to get those records before they destroyed them. So was there a prostitution? I mean, it makes sense that that Uncle Sam's coming after you over those back taxes.

34:13Yeah, you can't, don't be cheating Uncle Sam. And there was bigger criminal case. I'm sorry, I don't remember more of the details of it, but yeah, obviously good federal case. It's got to be pretty significant numbers and watching go. That was pretty unique. Well, not every day you walk into Cheetahs and see FBI agents. Rating it. I, and then the 9-11 attack happens while you're out there in LA. I take it. Yes, I was, I was, I was in my home, you know, getting ready for work, 16-ish, whatever the first plane hit. I saw it. I thought, oh my god, what a horrible accident, right? I didn't put it together right away. And then I saw the second one hit and then I knew this is no accident, you know, work or something attack. And so it was a few times that I hopped in the car and ran, you know, code lights and sirens all the way from, I lived in the San Fernando Valley down the wheelchair, you know, the shoulder, hollanda, to get to the office because nobody knew what was going on all. We thought the whole nation was under attack.

35:13So the first thing it is said, hey, start walking the perimeter of the federal building. So we're in our, our tackier just walking around and talking to everyone, driving up like what's your business, federal building. We're close that I, you know, turn people away because of the attack. So that first few weeks we were just running the leads. Every, you know, neighbor was calling about, oh, the guy next to me speaks Arabic. So, okay, do you have any, you know, evidence of criminal activity or terrorist activity, no, but we had to follow up on every one of those. After the attacks, you guys were working like 20 hour days, right? Like they had you busy. Yeah, when it was fun, like nobody complained or bitch, you know, but it's like when you're doing a mission that you know is righteous. Yeah, yeah, like the hours invested. I mean, we got on better cycle, probably day five or six. You know, you never, you know, like surge for so long, I got true, 20 air surge. You're going to burn out everyone. So I think we got 12 hour shifts after that. It wasn't too bad.

36:16And how did you go about applying for HRT? So you have to, you know, submit an application and then they interview your colleagues co-workers, your bosses. So you have to get embedded even before you're allowed to try out. And I had two buddies on the swathing Mike and John. And they were both interested in trying to breach our tea as well. So we started working out together. We literally mapped out workout plans and we switched off like I would do Monday's shooting and Tuesday, John would do that. We do that we do that UCLA run the stairs Wednesday. We do pool drills because we wanted to mimic every single thing. At least that we knew I was a church selection. We wanted to practice it before and replicate as much of the stuff as it could. So when we went there, right, we were ready. So we trained together for year over a year, like two a days, and on the weekends, it was brutal. But necessarily right to get your body in that kind of shape for selection that you don't have to be an Olympic athlete, but your body has to tolerate right in exceptional amount of physical strain.

37:22And the more or the less your body is physically stressed, right, than the more mentally you'll perform. So that was our obviously thought process going in. We talked other people that had tried out. So red Danny Colson's book. I saw it when your previous podcast in the background, no heroes. But that and Chris Whitkins, you know, book called zero really drove me to try out for HRT. And that's one of the reasons that I wrote this book just to share these kind of unique, fascinating stories and talk about some extraordinary people that I was fortunate to work with and read about them in those two books. And that's also what drove kind of all three of us to try out. And looking back on it, like do you think that was a smart way to train? Did you over train under train train on the wrong things? Yeah, actually over trained. They do a lot of dips at HRT selection. Like a lot of dips. That's like one of their crazy unique. They can even like steps, I guess. Yeah. And so we did a ton of dips. But I did so much that I needed elbow surgery.

38:26So I definitely over trained on the dips because everything you do as you know is with your hands, whether you're faster than shooting climbing, rocking everything, you're using those hands. And yet to this day, I had seven surgery on my elbows. Five on the left, two on the right. I'm starting to get it. It's called like golfer's elbow. Have you ever heard that? It's like tennis elbow, but it's kind of the opposite. Yeah, the older nerve. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah. So I had older nerve transposition surgery twice on this once here. And then I tore the distal bison tendon. Yeah, my body's broken. That's what you better tell me my future. Yeah, but you look better. So what was other than the dips? What was HRT selection like? It was absolutely brutal. And Whitcom does a great job talking about it in this book. You know, the it was the lack of feedback, which I found not troubling, but we all crave feedback, right? Especially you pour your heart and soul.

39:33Am I doing good? Am I doing bad? Yeah. And you compare yourself against the other people trying out with, but you don't know maybe do they all suck or they all are really good? Because you're, you know, paired off in running groups and like I remember when I looked around when you first, like, of course, it's 3 am wake up or like an in four o'clock for that first PT test. I just remember looking around and thinking, this is the room that I want to belong to. Like, these are the people that I want to, but I really, I felt, I felt ordinary among extraordinary because every was extraordinary. So like the first time I like to have what felt like, man, I'm not special at all. Like, truly, I'm just baseline. I never work so hard to be average at HRT selection. Because everything you're given max effort, you know, and just the, you know, first PT test is, you know, max pull ups, sit ups, rope climb, the two mile run, and then the eight flights of stairs with 35 pound vast and then two pound ram. And it's all timed and you don't make any of those cuts. You're gone. And that's just the first hour. You know, that's just your taste like that. That's nothing.

40:39And how long does the selection go on for? It's two weeks. Okay. Every day is brutal. Every day is 20 hours. And they intentionally disrupt the sleep cycle. Even though you have on paper four hours of rest, they flash bang you. They come wake you up and you have to write reports. So I remember one time, you know, we're sleeping in cops and these tents and they throw bangs in. It's like, all right. Next to my ear, like between me and the former seal and we're all. And then we had to go watch like that. It's just a mess with you. We're time like we watch like five minutes of the teletubbies. Right. Mother cartoon show. And then they said, okay, now right at 302 is an FBI record of an interview. Now go write a 302 of what you saw on the video. So like, you're barely, you know, keep your eyes awake. And I got to remember this horrible cartoonish thing. And then you know one said to the red one. Yeah. And it's just horses, right? To mess with your mind and to sleep to brought you. So that was that's really hardest. And then physical activity after physical activity.

41:47There were like two to three, like absolutely grueling physical events because this pattern, you know, Delta is, you know, and are back in 83 and are founded. Delta came. They should be help with that selection process. So it's brutally, but it's fair. And everybody's got to go through it. What was the hardest part for you? Well, the hardest part was not making the team. And again, this rigorous right people get hit with unlucky injuries and, you know, don't make the cuts or, you know, your pure violations, too, which, which I liked. Because then that helps cut people as well. But I'll tell you what happened to me or should say what my mistakes were. I don't know if you've ever did the Marine Corps weaver. Yes, just and you know, this logs go up and over the army has those two. Yeah, it's not that hard and obstacle, right? But it's just part of the whatever 10 obstacles and we're running the Marine Corps obstacle course at weaver. And there's former Navy SEALs, a former Buds instructor. He's standing there. And I heard of him beforehand. But I'm not saying anything. I just have not talking to him.

42:53I'm talking to the instructors during selection, but I go through the weaver. And then he says, stop, you know, blue five. You wear pennies number. They don't call me my name blue five. Do the opposite again. You missed a log. And my brain I'm thinking if you missed a log, you would have fallen off. Yeah, unless you have like a six foot wingspan, there's no way to miss a log in the weaver. Like like literary. So my mind is like trying to process. Like there's a campy like, or maybe I did. So I said, sir, can you tell me which log I missed? I'm confused. Blue five. Do the obstacle again. Right. So I basically challenged right an instructor. I should have just done it again. But I was just really confused, but no shoes. I was kind of calling. I said they call them out, but I was trying to understand what the problem was, but that's not your job is selected. You're just supposed to follow the structure. Well, I mean, from what you're describing to me, I mean, you're like kind of like exhaust it's sleep deprived. You're kind of cottonmined at that point. 100% yeah, 100%. So that wasn't devastating. The devastating thing was that it came to the shooting event. They again, you go, lots of shooting the whole time. And at the end, there's a steel plate competition. All the selecties against one another.

44:08And I love to shoot. I was competitive shooter. USPSA went through gunnashals. Like that was my wheelhouse and my forte. So I was feeling confident and I get to the finals. And I missed one of the steel plates and the guy beat me. So I was pissed. Right. So we go back and we're reloading magazines for the next thing. And it's just a select. He is early like I think eight of us left at this point. And I the 40 started. And I said to him, hey, Bobby, I'll bite you paycheck. I'll beat you next time. Right. Cocky kind of stupid. And again, dumb and my ego. Yeah, selection also not really the place for that. Yeah, not at all. Yeah. And around the corner was an H.O.T. operator listening. So he heard that. And he said, oh my god, this vehicle cocky guy. I think he's, you know, God's gift to shooting. So that got around. You know, like wildfire and if there's any doubt and they all, you know, obviously the team talks and, you know, compatibility is one of the key criteria. And they said, well, if there's a question mark. And there's a question mark in a mind. We're not going to take him.

45:13So yeah, that was feedback I got those throughout of and talk about right to full weeks of. Essentially 25 hour days being evaluated monitored and it comes down to two 30 seconds where I hope my mouth when I shouldn't have. So what did they tell you at the end of the course? Well, you get very little feedback initially. It's maybe like three or four weeks. So, first of all, I was happy to finish, right? And me, my L.A.B.B.B. is flew back and we were super proud we were three of the. Maybe was 11th finish. I can be off my numbers because I had to try out a second year. Anyway, we were proud to finish. And we thought we all did well. I thought I did well. I knew I did pretty well physically and I thought she didn't decently and you do the rest in areas too. And so I thought I decently showed and I didn't really think about those two events at all, right? At the time I opened my mouth. They didn't like pop out of like super horrible events. And then you get a call from the nature to commander.

46:15You know, if you make it and if you don't make it, you don't get a call. So my two buddies, John and Mike got calls one day and they both quickly called me and called you to call. And so you find out by not finding out. And that was brutal. And then I worked, you know, I had a couple of back channels and they're very slow, you know, to reveal information. But that was eventually kind of the word I got back is you can't be open to your mouth. Question the structure. You can't be, you know, think about yourself and I realized they're right. Like you got to put the team and the mission above your ego. Yeah. And that was really humbling and I needed it to really think back to why I have the aptitude for this and I did. I just got to control my ego and not do super things when you're so tired, when you're so drained. And put the team first always. How long was it before you were able to go back?

47:16Well, it took me months just, you know, personally, professionally I was devastated right. I haven't invested so many years and into this and I remember talking to boss in LA and ASAC. And he could see I was, you know, depressed like six months later. And he said, well, what are you going to do? I said, I don't know. Well, you went around that roller coaster or the, the marry around and you tried for the bass wrong. You missed it. Happens. So are you going to be able to look at yourself in the mirror if you don't try one more time. I don't know why that's just like stuck and I started looking at some of the mirror. What you needed to hear at that moment. Yeah. And I said, I'm going to do it. And so I started all, not all over again, because I didn't let my fitness fitness go all at the window. But I started back to two days and that grueling preparation. So I went back a year later, year and a few months and thankfully, you know, learned to keep my mouth shut. They called you back this time. And yeah, and I got the call.

48:17And yeah, I was fortunate to be among in the group of exceptional people. So what was the HRT training pipeline like once you get there? So we have a OTC course that we call knots, the operator training is eight plus a month. So it's a long pipeline because we do everything right. Lots of CQB, lots of farms, lots of repelling. You know, weapons of mass destruction, got hated that WMD stuff. Because of the bare suit they have you wear. Yeah, what a thing in the back that breather system, the respirator. Just heavy stuff. And like it's so unrealistic. Like we're fast-roping and you know, 95 pound. I'm here. And you can only operate really for like an hour. And then okay, you're sweating so much. You're not mission capable much. At a certain point. Yeah. Because that stuff's just so heavy and a wieldy.

49:20And we did dig their protection. Like drivers training with the Moab Utah. That was super cool. So yeah, basically a whole spectrum of skills. Go diving in Key West. Really enjoy it. Like I've probably some of my most enjoyable things because you're just training. Right. You're just getting these skill sets. And you're not on the team yet. So you don't have all the pressure being on the team. And you're still learning mode and you're going to expose to oh my god. So many things. So cool. Exposed breaching and two blear assaults. You got to do free fall. If you're on the jump team, I didn't. Okay. I wanted to go put my name in the hat, but only like. Is that how it's sub divided? There's like a jump team and dive team. So it's gone through several iterations, but there used to be just a dive team. There used to be just a course that it jumpers, but now they're spread out among the three teams. So every team is supposed to be theoretically mirror mirror images of one another. But only again, on that team is a handful of guys. Maybe not on the exact numbers, but let's say there's 18 guys and team only a third of them maybe will be free fall.

50:24Because that's such an extra invested time and. Yeah, it is especially be good at it. I mean, takes a lot of time. Yeah. So our senior guys have thousands of jumps. But that's the other two. We don't send all the guys to that. But yeah, select. Go to all that stuff. Free fall. I should say what was your favorite part of the pipeline? I really enjoyed dignity, dignity protection. Like we've protected the FBI director and the turning general. I don't know why I enjoyed and we worked with the secret service. Like even and this is later on the team. It got to go like Republican national convention, Democrat national convention. And just kind of seen behind closed doors going the White House. That was just unique access when you did the dig pro stuff. But I didn't really love the mission set, you know, taking a bullet. Other guy, but we were actually the cat team. A constant energy. So we were the counter assault team for secret service. So right when the secret service when you're in trouble, HFT is their backup. So we would go to the state of unions, all those other high profile lengths. And so we got to work and train with them.

51:24But they're helpful Maryland locations. That was kind of interesting to you. And you know, I think that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be in the pre-positioned right there ready to go. Yeah, exactly. And afterwards when you graduate, they sent you to scout sniper school. When did that come about? Well, again, it's just like everything. I'll knees of the bureau. I wanted to be an assulter. As we used to say eating eating Oreos in the talk while the snipers are out freezing their asses off. I wanted to be eating Oreos. The guy and you know, even though I enjoyed shooting, I pistol was my most enjoyable rifle, but not necessarily a scoped heavy bolt gun. But nonetheless, the HFT gods said you'll be a sniper. So they sent the snipers to the Marine Corps scout cyber school right there, a colonico. Again, great instructors. But man, like the stocks I got caught, you know, almost every time. I remember it was like snowing and we had like all the white on.

52:24And I somehow remember like one objective. I'm trying to find and confirm the target and you know, I'm poking my head up. And I'm trying to be slow and you know, I just don't have the sniper skill to do my sincerely tried. And like I think I instruct them, Marine Corps. The instructor later said, Kyle, you look like a ping pong ball. Bopping your head up, trying to confirm the target. And it was really that moment realized I'm just not suited for this. Even though I'll do my best, I'm going to try. I just knew long term I was not going to be a good sniper. And what team did they put you on? So I was on the blue. Okay, Blue Sierra was my unit. So we had, yeah, six great, great guys. Good, all good shots and you know, three sniper observer pairs basically. Mm hmm. Oh, and so I guess like at this moment just to take a quick pause for folks out there to talk about what HRT is.

53:26We've been having this whole conversation, but for people who have no knowledge, they can go back in time and watch an old team out to teamhouse episodes with Danny Colson. It was like the founder of the unit. So that's actually a really good place to go and get more information. But, but when you got there, you know, in the 2000s, what is the FBI hostage rescue team? Why does the FBI have this unit? So it's created back in 83 right for the Olympics. And so that the Department of Justice and the FBI had a counterterrorism team on par with Delta to be the civilian equivalent in law enforcement. Because it talks about in the book, but it's such a great story. I'll share it again is that the attorney general was touring Delta Force and looking to lay out of their gear and he goes, where are the handcuffs? Ha, ha, ha. And I'm sure the storm at Delta says that we wouldn't use handcuffs. What's funny? Said, 83 or 82. And that was police for the attorney general, light bulb.

54:28Like we need guys that can arrest individuals and prosecute them and put them through the criminal justice system. So that was one of the main reasons created to have an entity that could operate at the highest levels, but yet take them into, you know, US custody and US court system. Yeah. And I think that's what makes HRT kind of a fascinating unit to me that I don't want to compare them directly to JSOC. They're different. They have different missions. But HRT can do a lot of those types of things up to and including hostage rescue missions and also have the like infiltration capabilities that we discussed earlier. But at the same time, all you guys are cops. You can investigate cases. You can write reports. You can take the stand and testify against the bad guys and make the arrest. Yeah, that's what makes this so unique is, well, not just makes so unique, but different is that we're. Older age group to write your average FIA agent like 30.

55:28So we're not as young. Maybe it's nimble. But we have that season experience because you have to be an FIA agent first, right, priority coming on HRT. At least have three used to be five years. Oh, next to three or minimum, I think still. You can successfully demonstrate those skills of an FIA agent because that is the core. You're still even an HRT operator. You're still an FIA agent. They need to be able to investigate and prosecute targets and that's why it was such a good blend with J.S.O.K. Right? Because J.S.O.K. is the best at finding and fixing to store in the enemy. The Bureau is really getting investigating criminal networks and dismantling from an investigative angle at criminal network where that's the coast of the Ostra or Colombian gangsters. You know, I'll kind of very similar, right? They still have leadership structures. They got a funnel money around and that was again why the Bureau HRT was melted with J.S.O.K. and met us to help support J.S.O.K. with that. And from what I've read at least, I mean that relationship continues.

56:31I believe there were some FBI guys with the Maduro raid. Yeah, there's HRT guys there. Yeah. And that first T-LO. So yeah, the HRT continues to work with the guys. And that's because they need to arrest the guy, right? Yeah. Put handcuffs on him. Yes. And because that's Shane of custody too for evidence. Right. Because being an Iraq and Afghanistan, that was like not the Holy Grail, but we're there. God forbid if we, you know, find a piece of paper as a US phone number on it. Oh, yeah. Picture of your house that we could, you know, sat calm that very quickly back to FBI and we could have an agent at that house, you know, within an hour. Yeah. From fine to simple on target, you know, it's pretty remarkable capability. We would help bring the target. There's had other operation in Libya years ago where the Delta guys grabbed the guy off the street. Yeah. And I believe HRT was along with that or a couple guys, a couple of liaison. No, there's two HR operators there with them. 100%. Yeah. I know what I'm very well. Yeah. Yeah.

57:31So it's pretty interesting what you, the unit gets into both domestically but also internationally. Like you guys, there's some sort of like legal mechanism for like rendition. Yeah. Foreign transfer custody. It's a rendition we helped bring the back. Yeah. You helped bring Maduro and some terrorists. Yeah. Okay, the guy back. I'm the justice. So when you got to blue team, were they already like in this rotation where they're deploying over some. What was the situation where they're deploying overseas with J sock? No, that did not start yet. We were, again, there were some individual one offs that HRT would work with. Some of the other units to do individual missions, but there was no full, full blown deployments. And it was actually my partner. He was fellow West pointer, fellow tabbed. I'm the officer and we were the first to selected to go be embedded with two some five.

58:33And was a crystal and enough, you know, if you had deputy director to say, Hey, let's try this out for a full rotation. And I think we're picked because we had the military background. We at least could speak and understand the military language. We also were experienced agents and we definitely checked our egos at the door. Because you know what's like overseas, but everybody wants to go and target. It's like a circus, right? I was at the tent feeling it was dying to get in, but you got to prove yourself and you got to add value. And so we sat them for three weeks in Mosul. And like, I'm going to ask him like, what are we doing? Because they don't want to take us on target. And we said, hey, we're, you know, we're technically, exactly proficient. We're not going to slow down. And we do bring some capabilities to which you guys don't have. For example, Mephis was one of the mobile automated fingerprint ID system. Mephis. Oh, those before we got the cogent. Yes. Yeah.

59:33Yeah. So the Mephis is like 30 pounds, but we would carry it, of course. And then we could scan fingerprints. And then it would be linked to the FBI database. So if anyone had planted an ID or a concerted ID and all of our thousands of prints, we could have instant match. So that was finally like the key that opened the door after three weeks. And again, us living and working at the FAB, you know, trying to be an assistance without getting the way. What was your conception of why you were there versus what there's was? Well, understandably, we're just a little bit reluctant because, hey, we have two FBI agents here with badges and notebooks. And they got all the cool gear, but we haven't trained extensively with them. And are they looking at us? I think that was the initial thoughts, which I told you understand. And we come there kind of hat and hand, like we want to go and target with you. Well, everyone's going to target with us, right? But it was because of that Mephis. They thought you guys were like internal affairs.

1:00:33Right. Yeah. I don't care what you guys are. You know, sure, I'm a war crime. I don't care what you do. We're not here to look at you guys at all. And we can help, you know, with the Mephis. And also if there's a connection to a US target, that was our two key. It's not meant. And it's true, right? We wanted to have that kind of connectivity back to the States. If we find an imminent threat, it need me communicated to the FBI. We can have agents there at someone's door ASAP. You know, we'll bring that to the target. And we're not going to get in the way. We'll stand the court. He tells us to stand the quarter. And yeah, thankfully the first mission turned into a second mission, turned into third mission. And they ended up again, kind of fully integrated this towards Jan and towards Jan. It was really cool. Abu Taha was like the second or third in command of Al-Qaeda at the time. It was a very top tier individual in Mosul. This is Tallahfar and 2005. It was pretty dicey and you know, not not fun as you know.

1:01:33You literally, I think we may have crossed each other in the tarmac. Yeah, probably. Because we relieved 275. And so yeah, we're going Mosul, Tallahfar, all that stuff. No, literally. We were probably in the airfield at the same time. Probably. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a soldier, airfield. Yeah. But that was, yeah, I'll never forget. Well, back in the 21st, flew in in the C-130. I was my first corkscrew experience. You know, the deep dive, pilot shooting out chaff. I'm holding on. And I've, I'm actually jumped out of 30 or so C-130s. But man, I never did that corkscrew. And I remember looking over at my partner thing. Man, this, there's no joke. We're in, we're in the shit. And I was the first time we, this overseas. I'm ever being shot at. The was on one of the Mosul, they hits. I yet so tell us like as you started getting attached to these operations going out with 275. I mean, what was that like? It was like surreal. Right? Cause I was former army guy MP, but you know, I understood a little about

1:02:38about Rangers having to have my tab. That was one cool thing. I will say this is, you'll appreciate this being a 375 guy. Is some of the younger guys hadn't got their tab jet, right? They were whatever E3, he's just waiting or maybe they got injured or something. And they were, everyone was always busted their chops. Back in the fog. And I'd say, well, I got my tab up at you. Even in solid good nature, you know, ribbing back and forth. So we actually, you know, by the end of it, we're truly integrated. It was, it was really wonderful to see, especially after that breaking down those barriers, understandably. So that me and my partner, we really kind of forged that template for future embed operations across the East, West Coast, West Coast, West Coast, West Coast personnel kind of the model doing that sensitive side exploitation on target. So we did basically the battlefield interrogation with the Mafas. We did the Mafas first to run the Prince, get that going. Then we hop into it to bit on the, you know, maims or everyone on target trying to paint

1:03:41that Intel picture. Because I kind of painted our, our review by myself was almost as a forward deployed kind of s2. Mm-hmm. To help with that Intel picture and help with follow on targets. Because that was one of the, it's to me when the highlights kind of felt like we really proved our value is, you know, we got some lieutenant, you know, an IED cell maker, and I persuaded him to take us to his captain, who's just like two blocks away. So I remember walking through the streets and look, I'm leading, I mean, still behind the front element, but, you know, I'm holding this flexible, down the middle of the street, but later it's me with him. And this is a whole task force following kind of this path. And I was, I was super proud to kind of be prepared to be part of that. Doing those kinds of missions and at night, the streets are just a little too quiet. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, like the dogs and howl. Yeah. Or then when you hear the morning prayers, Oh, that scares the hell out of you when it goes off at like 3 a.m. Yeah, spooked me to no end. Because I mean, I never got used to the morning prayers because they're so loud.

1:04:42Well, I guess you, you and your partner did do a good job of like building the bridge, building a relationship. Because when we got there with 375, I don't, I thought I was privy to everything, but I don't recall any sort of friction. Like those guys, the HRT guys we had, we're always coming out with us. That's excellent. So you had two guys with you as I recall. Yeah. Yeah. Um. And while you tell us about the to offer mission where you guys rolled up that bad guy. daytime and he was a senior ranking, you know, kind of guy. And it was, you know, probably like noon or one and, you know, normally you're half racked out. And but we got the notice and so on. This everyone's super excited because Toyota's easy choice sales event is on. Whether you're looking for the performance of the camera, the versatility of her at four, the efficiency of a Corolla or all electric driving in the BZ. There's a Toyota that's just right for you.

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1:06:43And with great deals across the lineup, now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event and soon. We make it easy. Toyota, let's go places. They hadn't found his location yet. So we're doing a daytime hit and everybody is kind of on edge because he bought before and like all the big guys just said he'd never be taken alive. He'd kill himself up. So we're really worried about him having a suicide vest on. They were roll out and the streets, you know, going during the day is such a different animal than a night. And as soon as you're on the fog during the day, you know, you're worried about an ID or sniper or anything. And thankfully we didn't do too many daytime submissions. But that would have been. It's about like an hour and 10, 20 minutes from the soul to Tullafar. Yeah. And that's that city was really dicey at that time. Both of them were for that matter.

1:07:43Yeah. So we thankfully didn't run any issues. We go on target. He's there with like his girlfriend. So there weren't any other fighters there. So thank him. It was a quick grab. But the coolest thing for me is we're riding back and I talked him on target just a little bit and just confirming him, you know, and you know, that was like, like greatest calls ever when he stuff identifies with jackpot. Like, you know, that jackpot over the net. I don't know, it's just like an electric flying feeling because he was such a high-value target. That's why we were there right to get the HBT's. So that was an awesome call. Then we go back and this is what I need us moments to this. That deployment personally and professionally was we also interrogators are back in the rear at the fog. And we built such a relationship with them. The lead interrogator said, Hey, Kyle, you started the bit with him. I want you to continue to interrogation with me here and him with Abutala here in the rear. So for him to ask, you know, an outside entity, not DOD, but an FBI agent to conduct that initial interrogation on HBT with him,

1:08:45that kind of showed that we proved our value and our worth. Was this at that little black site we had there on the compound? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know exactly where I'm talking about. Yeah. I sure do. Yeah. So we were in the same place. We probably slept next to whatever. Yeah. Well, we had contractors that are doing the interrogation. And I don't know who else may have been involved, but I do remember, I think it was actually a husband and wife team. There was. So, so I want to say the guy's name is Jay, but that's not his real name. He was like the boss and there's husband and wife beneath him. Okay. Right? I don't know the chain of command. Yeah. I know the husband. I know exactly. I can talk about it. Yeah. They were. Yeah. It's a small world. I can picture right now. Yeah. No, I definitely spent some time in that facility. Wonderful wonderful accommodations that they were. It's good limit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think they did do a pretty good job of out processing civilians

1:09:52when we picked them up, which happened quite a bit. But yeah, I wouldn't want to be a bad guy held in that place. Yeah, that would not be cool. Not at all. And so you did subsequently four more rotations with 275. They kind of kept you three total. Yeah. Oh three total. Doing our act when I'm okay. Okay. And that's pretty interesting that they kept you with that battalion. That that relation. Yeah, four such a great relationship with them. And yeah, same company. Seaco. Interesting. Each time. So I loved it. They loved it. And really that way, you know, the more you work with someone, the more comfortably are with them. So I then the subsequent rotations I went and did the train up with them. Oh, so even the beforehand I did a couple weeks with them. You know, me and the other HRT buddy. So by the time we went to Ramadi, you know, we were fully. And you'll like this Ramadi story because it only a fellow. I think Ranger appreciated it. They have.

1:10:53How do I say this? A homemade phallic symbol, which is quite large. You're replicating the mail on genitalia. The Rangers out this? Yeah. Okay, I believe it. They would on target try to stuff in someone's backpack. But and then it was like, oh, you're carrying a dick on target? Like, what are you? Why would you care it? But you never you never would want it in your backpack. But they would on target when you weren't paying attention. Stick in your backpack. So it was like a running gag, right? And you wouldn't want to get caught with it because that's extra weight too, right? But it was really realistic looking. Someone put like a lot of time and effort. So it was really kind of funny and good, you know, I think to break the tension. But I'll never forget we come back, maybe from the second or third mission. When my buddy wit, they'd put it in wits backpack. Right. And oh, again, we just like howling laugh and even relates to we're back on back on the fog. And he pulls it out and like, oh, God, we're just dying laughing.

1:11:54And then that night we walked down, it made some warning, we're walking to the jock. And I see outside the jock is Macrystal's backpack. The lyrics says Macrystal, right? Oh, that I said, he wit. Let's go get it and put it in his backpack. Don't think he'll love it. And wit looks at me and he said Kyle. Either it'll be the funniest gag ever. Yeah. Or we're on a plane home tomorrow. Yeah, exactly. So thankfully he was the more judicious senior smarter one. So Kyle, we're not doing it. But I thought about briefly from a moment. But it was just good, good humor. But to me, it's a sign though that they like this respect this because they're having fun with this. Yeah, exactly. I mean, they're not going to like pull pranks on, you know, their leaders or their co-workers if they don't like them. Right. Yeah. It's a long, good fun. I guess you guys said that one of three. We didn't have a fake dick to my knowledge. But there's plenty of reindeer games that got played for sure.

1:12:58And oh, so in Ramadi, tell us what was this operation, brass balls? It's the end of genitalia. Yeah, the task force commander later became the two things six commander. We are planning a daytime raid. I say we task force that we're supporting, of course. And we're going to remain overnight, which those themselves and I'm most sure audience, those are remnant remain overnight. You go out through the target and you literally stay there till the morning because we suspected or we'd seen intel these two, you know, bad guys are meaning this market. And so we'll go out there in the evening. They were takeover someone's house, which is always kind of risky because you don't want any violence. You don't want it right. Right. And then someone potentially innocent too, right? We're just picking a random house that we think has the best kind of footprint to hide us for the night. So I always felt a little bit bad for these people. But nonetheless, we go in there and thankfully they're cooperative.

1:13:58But I basically talked to the guy most of the night just asking them questions. Hey, they're knowing around us. Gonna hurt us. Anyway, and then like, you know, that was a long night just waiting there waiting there waiting there thankfully no one came. But then we roll out on foot to this market because really maybe 300 yards away. And as soon as you start moving out, gunfire erupts and I'm like, fuck, but I got a translator with me and we hit the dirt. But I was not in a position. I couldn't because I guys in front of me couldn't engage. So we move around and then finally get to the market and the two guys would they kill them. So thankfully it was resolved. But that was another daytime rate as you know, it's kind of a harriest. Yeah, yeah. Most put you on edge, especially coming out of a local's house. I was that was a little nerve-wracking, but thankfully it all ended well. And then what was it like doing that job in Afghanistan?

1:15:00How did that differ from Iraq? So there would Kandahar and I was a senior tactical weapon country. So actually we had I think eight different tactical assets kind of underneath me. So I had four right there in Kandahar, but still very similar. But now we're supporting multiple units. So I was supporting two different, at least my team was. I was only going on target with one. But yeah, Kandahar mountains and you know, going after the HBT is a very similar to the SSE and bit on target. Really mission didn't change. I just had additional responsibilities for the other tactical assets. And they were split up across like different units? Yes. Yeah, the Bureau was constantly evaluating rightfully. So like which units to support? Because especially as the war effort went on. And everyone saw Jay stock has this. We'd like FBA agents to sign to us. So towards the end, this is like, oh, nine, I think,

1:16:00Neufkina San, like numerous units are requesting FBA support. But just like any specialized, any of the smaller numbers, we couldn't support that many elements. Anything memorable from that deployment? I remember when he first landed within that first 12 hours. You know, when you first get there, it was open to have a night off and of course we have a mission. Well, because I'd take it back, like I'd arrived with the ad von. And it was still the previous unit and the HBT guy wanted me to go with them. So yeah, it was just that was a sucky first day. You know, hiking up 9,000 foot. I wonder where with the rocks. I remember passing a couple guys that actually had to take the rocks off because it's such a steep climb. But yeah, thankfully, there was no. We did a cool water mission in the reminder, sorry, back in up to Iraq. We went on Zodiacs at the Euphrates. That was kind of cool. Oh, yeah.

1:17:00That was really cool because I was unique. Not many times, at least that Cico had ever done anything on Zodiacs before we were at Euphrates. Yeah, this was the, it's our recall this happened because they wanted to find a new infiltration technique. Yes. Yeah. That's the guy who I was. Yeah, so that was all that. So what was that like? Super cool. So we work with Zodiacs and do dive training too. So I wasn't like using your Ranger school training there or getting the paddles out. Yeah, we had the motors in the back for the first part. But towards the end, we paddled. But yeah, that was definitely kind of freaky going on the river because well, first I've never been on the Euphrates or any of those waterways in Iraq. But it's kind of like a streets, but on the water. So you sell the occasional dogs, howling. But thank for the most part, it was not too many houses. Like they're not too much population long. The waterways. So thankfully we didn't encounter anything on the infill. And then on target was normal target.

1:18:01We grabbed a guy and then brought him back on the boat. So overall, it was just a different unique insert, which I kind of love just being on the water, feeling the wind again. It's your face. Yeah, that hot, you know, a rack air even at night where it feels like you're staring into a hair dryer. Yeah, you're inhaling oven views. And then back to state side, you did make that transition from sniper to a solter. And you want to talk about Polarico? Yeah, so Port Rico actually was a sniper. That was my last mission. There's a militant separatist guy down there. Phil Alberto Rios. And he previously shot at the FBI and was a fugitive. He hit a guy at the edge of the face. He robbed him banks, still like $7 million. And he'd been on the run for like a decade. But he was kind of full on a small island. Yeah, but he's a folk hero of them, right? Because he's kind of anti-big-government.

1:19:02Right. He has this weird, you know, kind of cult-like following. And he's deep in the woods. And we had intel that they found him. So in HRT, we went to Polarico, say like twice a year. Because lots of criminal activity down there. And they're high risk. And it's in this rugged hillside. So we were going to do an aerial insertion and hike to it. And so snipers, the first element goes up. I was on the second sniper team. I should say the relief team. So the first team goes out. They set positions. And they're watching for a couple days. Then they confirm he's there. Then on that night, though, he's walking around. And they think that he may have seen one of their infill tracks or routes as he was walking around. So it's certainly afternoon of day two. So they call potential compromise. So they launch the daytime.

1:20:04That's all interesting. Yeah. And it goes south from there. So HRT, these soldiers come vehicle right up the front. And it's a shootout around start coming both ways. We're shooting him. They're shooting. And we have one of our guys who shot really badly in the porch. He gets to right underneath the vest. He goes down to a knee. Same guy with. Then is right there. The window. He stands in front of the window. To obscure fire fires at the guy. Well, two other guys go grab him. Move him off the porch. Yeah, you know, get him around the corner. And they start providing him, you know, medical care. Until like, Amel is going to pull up. So there's a longer like 20 minute firefight. Going back and forth. He then at one point, Shubbs is open the front door. Shubbs is a white out. It's like holy moly. There's another person inside. Yeah. Which we weren't, you know, aware of. So now we think it's just him.

1:21:05A few more rounds exchanged. And now we've relieved my team. The side team relieved it. So we're out watching. And I remember in the heat. Just sweltering the sweat dripping down. And then looking through the glass. And you know, after a few hours, even though we're alternating, that's tough. And then I'm not cut out to be the sniper. And you start to see things like, is that a shadow? Is that him? Wait, no, I'm going to blink the eyes. I never knew you're on glass for that long. Your eyes start to go. Yeah. And even though we're switching off, you know, every 20 minutes or so. Okay, how good you are after a couple of hours, even doing that. My eyes are just shot. And I'm never thinking I'm not extra mission capable or not. I'm questionable. My ability to identify the target. Because I would see a shadow. And I know that's not him. But I didn't see muslim flashes. So I obviously can't take a confirmed shot. I remember that was a few times. I got the finger on the trigger. But I wasn't comfortable taking a shot. Because right now, I was going to

1:22:06identify your target in this backstop. And even though we didn't think it was on the side, didn't want. I'm seeing a horrible, mystic tap right. We've had, you know, in the past. And so I didn't shoot thankfully. Or it didn't even, I should say, never saw anything. The war that warred it. But I married. That was another. Kind of needle in the adding to my, they're not this is a camel. Kind of broke the straw. But the camel's back of me. Not one to be a sniper. And just after that came back and said, yeah, I just don't cut out. How was the fire flight resolved? So the next morning now. So we'll go silent right after the. He's barricaded inside the house. Yeah, yeah. So we're basically sorry. They're around the house. And we finally got a robot. Like the next morning. Like Timeline's aggra. Maybe was later that day. That's not exactly what we're finding in robot. And we, because now we have no, we're trying to call him out, trying to convince nothing, no response at all.

1:23:07And one of the guys thinks he'd hit him. When he was, uh, he saw a glint of his outline. When he opened a refrigerator door, he was backlit by the fridge in a light. And he took a shot. So he did say, I think I. So they're thinking like maybe blood out. Yeah, maybe blood out now, because now it's been so many hours. So send the robot in. Robot season. He's on the ground. And the robot, you know, as a claw and it kind of rotates him over. And his hand is rigor morse. His hand goes like this. And in classic H or T fashion, one of the guys watching the video says, Oh, I think he has a question. Sorry. Yeah, that that. I pretty didn't get him. That was the, uh, that was the end of that. But we didn't know it. I mean, yeah, yeah, until many, many, many hours later. You guys are cops following procedures out of them like throw approximately 100 flash bangs into that. Yeah, level that.

1:24:08Yeah. Don't screwing around. I did love that. R.O.E. overseas. Yeah. Because there wasn't much. Yeah. Well, I mean, not to be like flipping about it, but yeah, the FBI doesn't use hand grenades. Like that's not a thing, you know. All the way, we had overseas. That was the only time. Oh, they let you carry out. Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. Makes sense. I don't know if that was officially bureau policy. Let me just caveat that. But we carry them. I don't think they're going to come after me now. I and tell us about a Detroit. Yeah, Detroit, uh, was a Ruse operation. There was a, uh, criminal who's connected to some, I want to say, uh, for you, which terrorist network. But he was, he and his four other conspirators were meeting an FBI undercover agent. So we set up in this warehouse and that we're going to rest in the warehouse right away from his home and in our controlled environment.

1:25:09So he comes in and we've, you know, we've got perfect position set up with cover and we've got a canine and we've got it wired for audio and video and, uh, he come in there right where I want him. The undercover gives a signal. He's out of the way. So we come out, yeah, FBI ends up in a rest. You know, show your hands. And then four guys immediately complied. They get your knees are you go face down. He goes down. But then his hands are in his pockets. Everyone else has their hands spread out on the floor. Show us your hands. Show us your hands. He doesn't do it. Team leader says, all right, we're going to release the canine. And then he walks up or it moves up with the canine handler. And says, you have three warnings. We're going to release the canine or release the canine. Show us your hands. So no doubts. Clear communicated. He doesn't respond. And he releases Freddy. Freddy is a canine. And Freddy goes in grabs his arm.

1:26:09And then he with his other arm pulls on a pistol. Of course, in his pocket. And he shoots at us. Shoots it. Freddy. And so Freddy took a bullet for me. And the other seven guys there. You know, we eliminated. The threat. But Freddy, even though we had, you know, H or D helicopter standing by and the medics had pre-coordinated with the vet. Like, but they'd already been the vet hospital. Everything was set. He was literally in the helicopter within like minutes of being shot on the operating table with another couple minutes. And they couldn't save them. So the canine handler Stan Wattis or a canine handler. He wasn't Freddy's at the time, but he did a tribute to Freddy. I haven't the book, the graphite drawing. And Freddy's one of canine heroes that he was like, somebody other canines gave their lives to protect their teammates. So I want to remember Freddy. What kind of dog was he? A Belgian Mellowal. Yeah, yeah. Just a great, ferocious doggy. Love being part of the team.

1:27:09Like he loved. Yeah, yeah. Like we could kid it up. Like he knew that was his job. And he loved being with us. That was a painful day. Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. As you know, it sounds like you know, you're firing at a cyclic rate here as an HRT guy. What sort of caught your interest about, well, frankly, weaving HRT and going to the crisis, or the yeah, the crisis negotiation unit. Very tough. It was my wife a lot of pressure. We were going to, uh, the optempo. Yeah, because we were gone most, our especially the deployments year years, like 50% of the time. We're like, two boys at the time. And I loved it. Like those missions and the people were extraordinary. Again, I certainly felt like I was just average. I never worked so hard to be average just to be on that team. And I love what we did and what we got to do.

1:28:10But I took a massive toll on my family and my body. Sure. I've had 11 surgeries. And it's just a chemo live effect. And where's my wife and I were going to Hawaii. And we're like packing the car up or to go the airport. And we got a load of information. And it's like December 23rd. I think so we're going for Christmas. Oh, I said, honey, I got a mission. She goes, what are you doing? And this is what we train for, right? So where we live for. And I said the team needs me and I need the team. And she goes, oh, let's go make one of your last missions. You're going to have to decide. And so that was really like a knife. Desirably so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And my heart. And I wanted to still like do a job at an impact. But it wasn't as risky because my wife like, she, I don't know about you. But like, I didn't worry that much.

1:29:12Like I even knew was my time that I was going to get taken out or not. Because you know, you were about too much. It'll occupy the time. So I actually didn't process it. My wife every night is thinking about it. Yeah, think about it. They'll just torture her. So the chemo and effect of all the end of my body just breaking down. I could totally put the seven surgeries on my elbows. So that all right, I'm going to transition. These these guys are incredible what they do. You know, we, you know, the tenants of a hostage rescue speed, surprise violence of action. All right, I love that. And we persuaded and intimidated through the dominating rooms. Well, negotiators, they slow things down. They talk about emotion, right, words where they're weapons. So it's a totally different way to look at a crisis. And totally different way to solve problems. So I really like that creative angle. Because now I've learned there's really two ways. More than two ways to look at how to solve crises and try to persuade others

1:30:14to influence them. Not through force. So I'm going to have to let him get that. That's right and Danny. But if we can avoid that or if I can avoid this, I've viewed it. If I can avoid sending my teammates back down or entering a house where guys are going to shoot them, right, I'm going to do everything my power to do that to protect them. So that was kind of a reason and background. And did you have to apply for that unit also go through specialized training and so on? Yeah, so there's a two-week negotiation course for FBI Negotiations and Basic One. And so I've got through that and then the unit chief. So you previously had Gary Nestor on. The first FBI C&U unit chief. So it's this actually three one or two people after him. I met with him several times. I said, I'm interested in coming to the unit and kind of near in the end of my time. We talked, I talked to the other. And I knew that I had known those negotiators for years because you deployed with them.

1:31:18Right. And so got more and more integrated into some training with them. And thankfully, they then accepted me into the unit. There is an application process you get to apply, but I kind of had the end. Because I was there and I'd done it. So if I enjoyed it, I really relish that mental chess game now. Yeah, I mean, the two weeks, that must have been just an introductory course. Yeah, yeah, it's just the first interruption course. You start taking psychology courses. What's the background of one of these guys? Yeah, so we worked with a behavioral analysis unit as well. But yeah, there's several extra quick, there activities and training that you would do. So like we sent guys in that unit to the London Metropolitan Police Negotiator Training. So they sent me there for two weeks. So I did that for two weeks. Then I went to other one week courses. You really learned how to effectively communicate.

1:32:20And more than that, like be a good listener. Because I know I wasn't like the best listener. So this is fascinating. When my middle son was 11 years old, after I'd been in CNU for a year, he said, Dad, you speak to us differently after you've been a negotiator. I said, shut up kid. No, I didn't say that. But I was like, just stunned that my 11 year old son was so observant. That picked up on it. I didn't consciously choose the way I was speaking. But yeah, through the communication, you know, training through the drills. And we did a lot of role playing, a lot of exercises of fake negotiations. Like also like we do have you could call in to help with suicide hotlines and do other techniques to help you learn to empathize with people. So it really takes you at least two solid years. And the normal, I was kind of like, it was normally you'd be a field negotiator, like field swap. You normally be that for five or six years. And then come back to CNU.

1:33:21I was very, very fortunate and lucky to just do it in that. If I recall correctly from reading some of these books, there are historically at the FBI been seriously big tensions between the negotiators and the HRT guys. Well, you go back to, right, Waco, and unfortunately, massive disconnect between the two. Like they weren't even co-located. And tactical didn't listen to negotiators didn't really see the need or value to it. Because tactical things like tactical, right? They want to use one of themselves of the tool. Yeah, yeah. It's quicker, right? You're more efficient and the job's done. And I understand that from a tactical perspective. But now, if we can resolve it, if we can get like the branch of in is, if we can get even what they got 25 kids out, like the negotiators saved 25 kids lives. Right. Like that's remarkable, right? Those 25 people now, and I could be off of the numbers, but living like the rest of their lives, do the negotiator.

1:34:24So the fact that that disconnect like that bothered me and there were significant changes, the FBI made after that. So I mean the critical and response group to be in Braille, to house both. And they did work together. There still remains, and I even probably do this day, a little bit of tension between the two. Because they just think differently. And unless you've been in both worlds, right? They each speak different languages. And I, one of the reasons they took me is that Unichief said, I really want and need someone who has a H or T background, so that we have more credibility with H or T. So really his decision to and Gary Nester also recognize that too. And he brought on the first from RATURE T guy. But is very rare. Begin bridging that gap there. I'm sorry? To bridge the gap between the two. To actually absolutely to bridge that gap. And you got involved in some like pretty high profile operations as a negotiator.

1:35:25Yeah, first, a big one. Well, Michael Scott Moira was a big kidnapping case. He was kidnapped by Somali pirates for two and a half years. And that was first time negotiating with a pirate. But yeah, I'm negotiating with pirates, kidnappers, and terrorists. So they sent to where you're like working with like a SEAL Team 6 over in Somalia and trying to work that. So we did work with those guys. This is exceptionally long case. And those guys are great. I remember like a year into it. Where the pirates demanded, well, first off, he was kidnapped. And then Justin Buchanan was saved like two days later. Yeah, yeah. And so his rant or yeah, Mike, somewhere's rantsum was $20 million. And like it was like comical. Like we support the mother at the US government doesn't pay any rancums. But we support the mother. So I'm right there with the mother. Marliss, fantastic, individual like super stoic, awesome.

1:36:26But she doesn't have $20 million. She's not even realistic. Some so the first like a year was really difficult trying to find like a reasonable even bargaining position with the expirates. Where did they snatch Michael up from? What was his deal? He went to Somalia to write a book on piracy. And his bodyguard driver turned on him. I guess he got the experience to write the book. I mean, there's that probably not the way you wanted it. But so how did you guys resolve that one? So there was a great idea. So he was taken aboard the Naham 3, which this time when he was fishing vessel, that they had also hijacked on the head. Several other prisoners on board. And they like it killed the captain. The captains of the freezer. Jesus. So these are brutal individuals. And there were some sick and assets. This is one of my trips down to the dam neck. Because we're this is before there's like a true fusion cell. Now there's a hostage recovered fusion cell, which is great. But this is before that. So we're just on our own kind of collaborate and working together.

1:37:27That they invited us down. And the fans and me might kind of mentor and see you. Anyway, they I thought one of those brilliant ideas ever. We had Sicken coverage and he was fishing on the side of the boat. Like every day around three. Three-ish. And they said, well, what if he jumps in? Can you swim? I said, yeah, he was a surfer. He was a California surfer. I said, I'm, you know, almost guaranteed he'll swim. And so they started developing a plan. I will go into two extra details. We can figure out for you. Usually what their plan was. And again, I'm aware of the love that we released after the headquarters. I said, look at this brilliant plan. We love it. Police supportive. Like, let's do it. We're going nowhere in negotiations. I'm can't get in the way for the 20 million. And then like a week later. I'd say we're now we're spinning up. NSC level is considered. He jumps off the side and tries to escape on his own. Oh, so you guys didn't have like,

1:38:28oh, comms, like even clean dust time. We tried to get a message to him. And we literally were crafting the message and putting it it was in route to get to him within like a few days we think. So literally, he didn't know it. And I can't tell you the idea. Yeah, we were, we were pretty close. We're getting the message and the boys would have had an incredible mission there. There was a a year ago when everything was really going south in Libya. The Swiss government arrested a member of the Gaddafi family. And so the Libyan government responded by arresting two Swiss businessmen in Libya. And they were being held near the coast. And they let these guys, they were on house arrest. It wasn't that bad. They were, and they were being allowed to swim in the Mediterranean. They'll go out there, go for a swim. And the Swiss Special Forces guys got tasked like, hey, figure out how to get these guys out. And they came up with a plan that they'd rent the sailboat, come down the coast, jump off the opposite end of it with re-breathers,

1:39:31and then come and grab these guys. They'd have oxygen tanks from re-breathers for them, put them on the hat, and then swim back to the boat. And it never got approved for like political reasons. You know, I think the Swiss probably paid some money and got the re-breath. But I mean, it's interesting. Maybe they could have pulled it off. Yeah, again, I think, because the main thing is if you come from the water, right? Him being a surfer, I felt that was one of the things. Because one of the guys had like maybe like a heart condition or something, and he didn't feel that he could swim underwater. Yeah, I was part of why it didn't happen. Yeah, that will mix your plans. But I love it. I love the creativity. Yeah, exactly. Outside the box thinking. And like, it would work. And it's relatively low risk by comparison to fast-dropping operators onto a boat. Yeah, yeah. It's more to sell. Yeah, yeah. And then you got involved in the aftermath and your aftermath of the Boston Marathon bombing.

1:40:32Yes. So on Friday, of course, the bomb was off. And then Thursday, we were released to the pictures. And the bombers are identified. And they go kill them. I see police officer and there's a big fight out in the water town. And so I was flown up Friday morning from Quantico as the kind of senior FBI negotiator, even though there's a much more senior to people than me. But we, you know, we actually had Mark Thundercloth in different location in Boston. He was with H or T hitting another location. But I was in the water town mall. And and if you remember when he was identified, people went on the media like his uncle said they're losers. These guys are horrible. His aunt went on and like she said, oh, they're set up by the police, right? Yeah, yeah. She was a nut. Yeah, she was nutty. And then his wrestling coach actually went on. CNN and spoke positively about him. So even though no one thought they're being negotiated resolution, I didn't think the negotiated resolution, right?

1:41:34But if my job be prepared, okay. So I called the wrestling coach, spoke to like an hour, learned his nickname and some background details on him. And that said, thanks. Maybe we'll see you tonight, Friday night, you know, as we're getting set here. Is that what this is the younger cousin? Yes, the younger brother, the brother. Yeah, the two brothers, the younger one. Did you guys know that the older one had been killed yet? Well, yes, we knew because he read over. But I wasn't public at least yet. Gotcha. Got to. Which is kind of key point later. I'll get to. Some of the water time wall. And remember the city's the nations on edge, right? Because after the firefight with the police, the younger brother, the drug brothers, older brother, and then fled. And then the city's on the lockdown. They're looking for him. Can't find him. City goes off lockdown on the 6 p.m. Friday. Homeowner goes his backyard. He sees blood on this boat. He calls 911. And then hundreds of officers self-the-pool to the backyard.

1:42:35On Franklin Street. We all heard it like on live television. Yep, you heard those hundreds around. Get the bearcat up. Yeah, and I'm like a quarter mile away. And I thought, man, I've been in Fallujah and Mosul and Talfar and I haven't heard that since being overseas. And I thought, oh, thank God it's probably done though. At least, you know, the guys killed. Because we were staged. Like, there's thousands of us, probably 2,000, or so, mole. That was the law first staging area. And HRT was there. And we heard that again, kind of relieved. Thinking, okay, good. It's all done with, we'll get to go back home. And then I see the HRT, like S3 running towards the team, which is like 100 yards away at the parking lot. So I thought, man, that guy never runs. Right? Like I literally thought he's only running because they got the mission. So I run over there and sure enough, he said, HRT is eight guys. Go deploy and take charge of the site. It's total chaos. And mayhem. And so I was there, the team leader. And I said, hey, I'm a negotiator at the time.

1:43:36I said, hey, why don't you let me hop in. And he goes, Kyle, we're not going to need a negotiator. And I said, I get it. And this is a guy to work with, thankfully, for 8 years. So I was able to gently push back. And this is exactly, I think I was just in the right place, the right time with the right background. And I said, I think you should take me just in case, it's better to have me and then, you know, I'm not going to get the way, than not have me in need me. He was all right, all right. Hop in the last vehicle. So it's like gentle nudge, but yeah, yeah, very glad I did. And then my two other negotiation partners, they follow in a separate vehicle, so like, ninth in the convoy. And we drive short distance, but then we're hit by all the other traffic. So then we got a dismount and then we're climbing the fences. And my two partners will just say they're healthy negotiators. Mark and Vance, just great guys, but they can't scale fences. And so I'm now all alone, but we're at this site now. And meanwhile, the bearcat had come up.

1:44:37They tried to flip them out using the arm, which is a good idea. Is this when he's hiding in the boat? Yeah, got you. So he's selling the boat. Hundreds of rounds are fired. Someone says, he's fired. They hold their fire. Massachusetts police bearcat comes up, tries to flip them with its arm out of the boat, but he can't. It doesn't have enough leverage. They command him to come out, come out. It doesn't have any effect. And that's right then when we arrived. And the team leader, I'll call him Big D, just did a magnanimous, awesome job like instilling order into the chaos. This is in pictures. They actually did decent job of it because it was, it was a horrendous like talking about the perimeter 360. The Boston PD was pretty overwhelmed, I think. Well, this isn't even, yes, in Boston PD, this is out of their jurisdiction. Right. They were there and they didn't have jurisdiction there. So imagine like, like literally 40 different agencies. From Massachusetts police to, I saw Department of State guys there. What with the vast and a gun. I thought, what is Department of State?

1:45:38I couldn't say any verbally, but like, my mind, I fuck you doing it. Yeah. So it was like a circus of all circuses. And obviously I've been in a few circuses. But this was like, total man because there is no command and control. The 360 perimeter, every use. And they only not only missed him, they missed the boat. I think it's embarrassing to the professional law enforcement to say this. But they're rounds. I'm not walking up scene in like the garage behind him. Jeez. And I thought, what were you people shooting at? Right. Because we're responsible. Every round we fire is about the agents. Uh, so, Big D then he still instills order into the cast. Just great job. But did it without like being in jerk, but you know, definitely taking charge. Toyota's easy choice sales event is on whether you're looking for the performance of the camera, the versatility of her app for the efficiency of a Corolla or all electric driving in the BZ. There's a Toyota that's just right for you.

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1:47:40And with great deals across the lineup, now's the time to find yours. But hurry, these deals won't last long. Toyota's easy choice sales event and soon. We make it easy. Toyota, let's go places. I've rarely seen someone, I've never seen someone do it so well, just an amazing job. And these, this is all right, we're going to deploy some 40 mic mics. But some CS gas. Well, flashbangs. Oh, sorry. Into the boat. We got overhead. MSP, best student police helicopters got flier. So we can see a warm body, but there's no response. So we know there's a little warm body, but we don't know if he's like. And the fear is that there could be more explosive devices. Yes, so as much as I killed four people and yeah, seriously one to 250 others, I wanted them that as much as anyone. But remember, at the time we didn't know, is there another tarry style in New York City or another bomb waiting to go off in DC? So our goal is to take them alive for that reason and that reason alone.

1:48:43Right, what other Intel is out there risking American lives. But like the desire, the thirst for vengeance was palpable. And that's why I think those somebody officers kind of fired and sympathetic fired. Also, so anyway, Derek does, or excuse me, the team leader does flashbangs. No response. And now we're kind of all just sitting there. At least I'm thinking like, man, what are we going to do next? Right, we've got every level of lethal force. And normally at Pyramid, as you start with physical presence, then you go verbal commands, then you go physical force, then you go lethal force. Well, now we've started the top. We have nowhere to go. And word comes down, FBI director said to negotiate. And then I heard on the radio, Kyle, you're up. And for a moment, I thought, man, this sucks. I don't have my two partners. But I'm not concerned with my safety, but I'm concerned that every word I'm about to say

1:49:44is going to be scrutinized and questioned every word I don't say. For sure. And I got 400 officers here, listening to my every word along with FBI headquarters, and God knows who else I'm read and seeing ends down the street. So I had to take, as I start walking to the house, because I thought I'd get a secondary vantage point. I'd learn to pause, though, in the entryway. And I just looked three deep breaths. And they said, you can do this, right? I've been in six or six ways before. Go do your job. We just took like five seconds, but again, just that quick kind of self-peptalk. And then went up and then put my hands against the window. I said, my name's Kyle, I'm with the police. I'm here to talk with you. And for 10 minutes, it's like silence. So I'm trying to not sound like a parrot. And it was really hard when you're having a one-way conversation. Someone you don't even know. And I said, hey, you can't hear me like, you know, bang on the floor. Like move the tarp. Just let me know you're alive.

1:50:44And I'm trying to frame the conversation as a perspective. I know you're probably a hurt, scared, confused, demonstrate empathy. I'm talking about this path that influenced in the book, but I'm using these steps, which we learned as negotiators. And then, five or 10 minutes, he says, water. And I said, perfect, in my mind. And I said, I've got buckets of ice cold water for you. Yeah. That's on the boat. You gotta come off the boat. To get the water. And he said, I can't move. I said, you gotta move. And like, headquarter is calling for updates. And thankfully, by now, Vince and Mark had arrived. And they're next to the team leader. So now they're coordinating and, uh, unseen as well. So he actually called me, and I saw my phone ringing. Vince, why are you calling me? I'm right in the middle of this. He's all, uh, good job, you know, bring up the coach. Oh, yeah, thanks. I hang up on him. He calls back. I hang up again. He calls back. Hey, idiot Kyle, I'm going to be your coach. Be at the phone. Just put me on, you know, mute.

1:51:46But I was so, my athlete focused. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's on, I kept him like, you know, way back there. And he was real quiet, but he gave me a good input and a couple points. And after like 20 minutes, I brought the coach, which I should have brought up earlier. But I said, hey, I spoke to your coach today. I spoke with coach Payak. And he wants to see you come out of this alive. And then I said his nickname. That was like the magic moment. I said, I know who you are, Jihar. I know who you are. And it's like head bolted up from the bottom of the boat. First time I saw like a physical reaction from him. And so that he knew that I knew who he was. And then that's kind of what opened the door to him moving. He said, I can't move. You got to pull yourself. Move. So he said, move like an inch. I can't move anymore. I said, finish the match. You got to finish the match. And I said, I also wrestled. All right, I wrestled in high school. I know what's like to be a loan on the mat. And so that connection point of the wrestling and again, me doing my homework being prepared,

1:52:46priming myself for that moment, which you know what that was possible. But that resulted in an hour and a half later. He's on the side of the boat. And he has that one leg over. This is probably that kind of picture, you know, and he's got the lasers on him. And he's got just his right like knee and back. Or right knee and below was inside the boat. And he says he's hurt badly. He can't move that leg over. And I said, you got your eight feet above. Just move it over and just kind of follow the grass. And then we'll get you medical care. You'll get to see all the people outside the boat. They love you. You get food out of water medical care. All those good things. They've saying they both you die in the boat. Those are some things I was using. Courage him off. Anyway, he said they can't. And then he like falls forward. Like he's almost losing consciousness now. Then he comes back up. And I said, come on, get off. You know, move your foot every second. I can't. I can't. He like falls forward. Was there some prohibition against you, like grabbing him by the sleeve at this point? Well, what's going through our mind is, is this a trap or is he truly like exhausted? Yeah, yeah. And so I'm talking to my team leader.

1:53:46And I said, I think he's, I believe from my perception, I'm pretty good to you. Of him. And now he's compliant subject. He's listening to me like I haven't lived up his shirt to show he has no nothing on his chest. And he's following my directions. I said, I think we should go grab him. He said, all right. So talk him through this explain what's going to happen. So big D again, talking about magnanimous job. He doesn't have pick H or T guys to go put the cuffs on him. He fixed six locals. He says, I'm going to help with you guys, but I want you guys to have a honor of cuffing him. Like that's true leadership. Yeah, he's willing to step into the background and give again, the credit honor to others, which I just so magnanimous. Just what a great leader. And he knew, you know, H or T, we're going to fly back the next day. But this is the local's arrest kind of bossen's arrest to make. So he walks up with him. I talk him through it. Hey, the guys are come listen. By the way, you see the red dot on you laser? Yep, listen to me and you'll live. If you make a further movement, we're going to kill you.

1:54:48We're going to shoot you right where the red dots are. So it's very clear, like lean out the consequences for non-compliance. And I said, do you understand? Yes. And I said, okay, they're going to move forward. They move forward. Basically, yanked him off. Copt him. They used shelling call yours cuffs. The MIT Blue Loose Officer that he has brother killed. And then shove in the ambulance. And then team, there's the hey, Kyle, we ride with the ambulance. Sure. Because we're getting transferred custody. You know, now he's officially FBI custody. And then like headquarters is calling me. I talked to the boss quick as assistant director. Explained, hey, we got him. He's alive. As he conscious, well, he's going in and out of consciousness. And it's like a 10 minute ride hospital. All right, you're going to be met by two FD agents there. Take him to surgery. And they'll take him from you in surgery. Got it. No, no. And then I sit back down, you know, next to him. And he reaches out and grabs my hand. And the bomber asks me, how's my brother? Oh, is that the first time that came up? Yes.

1:55:49So now I'm in a dilemma. Do I tell him you ran over your brother? You killed him. Or do I withhold that information? No one that we want to know about the more bombs of the Sabouille. I have a lot more questions for you. Right. I don't want to ruin, report, or also tell him a lie. Later, come back and make the bureau look bad. So I said, I'll chuck on them for you. Because I didn't want to have a good answer. I didn't want to lie to him, but I didn't also tell him the truth yet. And then we got the hospital and escort him into the surgery. Pretty cool. Two FBI agents and like surgical gear. You know, guys wearing the badge around his neck. And actually I recognize one of the guys from headquarters that seemed before just nodded and they took him in surgery. And that was the end of the Boston Marathon bombing. Wow. And that cat is chilling in Super Max now, is it? He got the death penalty. The Christie's appealing it. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, he's sitting in Super Max. That's a wild one.

1:56:51Yeah, that was crazy. The other like high profile operation you were involved in or one of them as a negotiator, the famous bunker boy rescue. Boy, the bunker was one of the most challenging FBI kidnapping operations in our history. Yeah, crazy to range guy goes on a school bus, kills the bus driver, very heroic bus driver. I should back up like this guy goes in the bus, is pointing the pistol at the guy from the same distance us here. And the bus driver Charles Poland, heroic, heroicly refuses. He says that you're not going to take the kids off my bus today. Like what a just incredible, you know, balls balls and says no. And he's in a second three minute video from inside the bus. Truly difficult to watch when I've watched it a hundred times. He doesn't end up killing but just I always like to mention that because true the American hero there trying to defend his kids. And he grabs versus good next to and takes some

1:57:53Ethan to his underground bunker which he'd spent over a year for pairing this layer. And he had IDs, additional weapons in there. And it was all set up for this competition with law enforcement. Yeah, what did he have some kind of like grievance with the town or something like that? Well, he did government, especially big government. And he'd had multiple interactions with law enforcement. And he had a he was an injustice collector. Is what BAU described. And he had pending charge of brandishing a weapon to be in court like the next day. So we think that was the final trigger which led to this. But he had a series of assaults and domestic abuse. He was horrible. It's yeah, it's probably pointless for me to apply my logic to it. But I'm thinking like, okay, you don't like the government. So you kidnapped a kid off of school bus. How does that work? Yeah, it's, and that's a great way to put it. And I try to tell people that because I could ask this all the time. You can't apply logical thing into what he did. Because he wanted an audience to tell his story about all his grievances.

1:58:57So in his mind, he was fully justified to kill the bus driver and take this kid hostage to tell his story grievances. So tell us about CNU and HRT getting spun off for this thing. So yeah, I remember partner and I, Vance same guy in Boston, early with my mentor, just probably the best negotiators in the world. And he and I got the tag for the mission. On the day one, when it just happened on Monday, we saw like the video we met with a behavioral analysis and we just watched that. I remember we were debating with them and they said, well, maybe he's taken the five-year-old for a sexual gratification. So he also wrote a note which we found on the bus. And we looked at the note. There's no mention of wanting the kid for that. There's nothing the video to indicate that. And I remember when I was the first time, like professionally and disagreeing, like, no, we, I don't see that. We don't see that. This is a thing. Yeah, and amongst his long rap sheet, he doesn't have that. Horrible, the guy is. Yeah. There's no behavioral indicators. That's why learners in negotiator, like you base your assessment off a behavioral indicator.

1:59:59You know, just based on what got feeling. Like there's no behavioral indicators that he wanted to molest a child. Although again, we had to be prepared. I got to be prepared, but just an initial assessment. And then that night, we actually got the order to deploy. We're going to fly out in the morning. We flew out the second morning. And we rolled with Monday plane. And, you know, we're going to, it was back on H or T's doing other gear prep on the plane. And when we landed, that was Midland City. And thankfully, I had our own, you know, the Bureau plane was always nice to fly in their airport. Although it was nicknamed to, or it was named Freddie too, in honor of Freddie. But I always felt like, whenever the thing flyed, I noticed it changed. But it sounded like an old washing machine. Is this like a glyphs string? Radly no, no. It was a like 737. Oh, no kidding. But like a 35 year old 737, which sound like a washing machine. Like you'd hear these moving parts every time you landed and took off. We always thought it was going to blow up on us. But anyway, we were on Freddie too. I believe for that mission.

2:01:00And yeah, it was a, really, it's just an interesting story, because he was so prepared and again, had IEDs on the property. He had one inside the bunker that was remote. Why are detonated to outside the bunker? And then inside he had another one, which was like a, like a 22 against a shotgun primer into a bigger IED. So he had both those IEDs. He threatened to detonate if anyone came down. That was just one way and one way out. So talking about like the worst fatal funnel ever. And we had structural engineers. Army, ground-pandished in radar. Like we had almost every asset you can dream of to help us. But there was no way. If we tunneled from the side, it would potentially collapse in these 2000 pounds of dirt. And the HRT guys built a like full-scale mockup, right? Well, one of the former seals on the HRT called Gulfport Sea View Battalion. And this is like Tuesday and says, Hey, can you guys help us build a mockup?

2:02:02And how great is this? Within like three hours, I don't know how we're going to fix the load up. They had like two 18 wheelers drive from Gulfport to Midland City. And that day, the CBs are making the mockup. Like incredible. It's got this rock. As you've seen what they do overseas, it was just awesome. So they're building the mockup. So we're doing rehearsals, HRT's and rehearsals. But I was going over just checking out as well. Just getting idea of it. Because we reason the negotiation with him to gather intel for the creation of the bunker, right? Because he would kind of boast about it. And we interviewed all the neighbors of course. Because we're trying to gather every bit of intel for construction materials to be buy. Exactly. And we're going through a purchase history. Everything you can think of. Because we have hundreds of people on the ground. Actually, we're like day three. I think we have daily updates of the director. And you know, in there was like the especially in charge, the HRT commander. And then the Vance was the lead negotiator. I was going to the deputy, the BAU rap and the chair.

2:03:03So that was like the key kind of leadership group. Which relapses like a negotiator. So for me to be even involved, even though I was the deputy, it was a great feeling to know that I kind of had to see the table. Right. Right. I felt like, I don't know. It was just like a cool professional moment even to be there. How did you advance get comms with the? Oh, it's so bad guy. The Atlanta, this is that night one. We were there yet. Atlanta, this even, yeah, mobile. Called Atlanta after I had to help them initially. So before even the HRT got there, some Atlanta negotiators were there. Gotcha. And they successfully, he'd set up the speaking tube. It's such a crazy thing. He dug a 170 foot underground. Like foot deep, PVC, PVC tube, speaking apparatus so that if you know, the bunkers over there 170 feet away, he would talk to people. So that was where he first told law enforcement. He called 911, by the way, after he drops into the bunker, he comes up, calls 911 and says, talking to me at the speaking tube. Comptonized speaking tube.

2:04:04Yes. And the first responders do that. Bill Rafferty is the first negotiator. He stands speaking tube. And they're just talking to him. And of course that night we bring up an STBT, a bomb tech and they x-ray it. And what's in the speaking tube and IED? Oh shit. Yeah. So they were talking. So they negotiators that night persuade him to accept a through phone. Yeah, as a subcommunication by some like any good negotiator is you phrased from his perspective, benefits him. And so they filled that to him. So that was how we're talking to him. Gotcha. Gotcha. So it was safer and obviously better for us. Not to have someone stand up at IED. We just surrounded with sandbags after that. And what was as you get, you know, you and your buddy Vance open up communications from your end? I mean, what's your assessment of this guy? Well, day two, I should back up when I first saw that Ethan was the five-year-old. He needed medications. So he needed his at Asperger syndrome. And he needed three times a day meds. So the negotiator is able to talk him

2:05:06and letting us go to actually go up to deliver meds three times a day. So we're really target analysis three times a day. So day two, I saw like, you know, 4-8-30 buddies go with the two local sheriffs. And I remember watching that. I thought, well, wait, they're talking to him. Even the way the through phone, they're talking about the bunker lid. So I went to the H or Tiki manor to say boss, like any time there's communications, you should have a negotiator there. Let me go be the coach to that sheriff's deputy to have continuity with the same guy talking to him. Then I'll be his coach, I'll obsess and provide him talking points and be right there at the lid. And he said, yeah, do it. So I became the forward like to put a negotiator. Even though I'm not talking talking to him, I'm talking coaching the guy with him. So I'm right there though with everything. And we had 25% team. So it was not just me and Vance. We were leading the team. We had 25 other negotiators. Because now we're doing eight hours shifts. And you got every hour. You got to send an update to headquarters. It was like a beast of an operation. So yeah, the story in day three is like,

2:06:09again, we got 100 FBA personnel plus on scene. And director asks us, okay, how many calls are there today? Well, it's only had two calls. That's like six PM at night. Two calls. You know, I'm playing, what are you guys doing? What's going on? Why only two calls? Well, sir, each call was four and a half hours long. Right. So it was like nine hours of calls. And you know, it's a classic example of stuff to lead a crisis from far. Right? The second guessing, your septic manner, or something around. But so there's no more questions about number of calls after that. But day six, or day five is a pivotal event. We had an opportunity. He, which is remarkable thing about this. This is the bad guy stuck in a hole. There's this garage door spring on top of the hatched lid, which he installed these two garage door springs to help lift it up. It was so heavy. So imagine like 200 pound piece of wood,

2:07:11or 200 pound square, roughly, it had the springs on to help him lift it up. And one of the springs that come off in the storm. And he said, well, I want to help you guys lift up that hatched lid to attach a second spring. So it's easier for you guys to lift the lid to put an indication down. And I heard him say that on the phone. I think, wow, this is the bad guy offering to help the police, help law enforcement. And I thought, hey, I ran to the commander. So they heard this. I say boss, he may, he's willing to come underneath and lift the hatch lid up. Yeah, that's going to operate right there. And see if he'd snap. Yeah, what do you think boss? So boss said, I love it. So I went and I shared it with HRT and they talked about having that guy right there. And if he could confirm that the trial wasn't there, right, then it's, we don't have differences in our lethal force directors, but it was nice to know that at least the boss said, I've viewed this as Ethan being an imminent danger.

2:08:13Because we, we truly don't change our lethal force, but this is nice to your boss say those words anyway. So we go up, do the, do the medicine delivery that day, which is all normal. And then we say, can you help us lift the hatch lid now? And so I'm right there. The hatch lid opened up. And I can see his white hair come like three feet away. And actually, you know, the operator's right there. But he's got to wait and right to confirm that shot. And it lifts up. And then right as the operators, I can see the finger on the trigger. Right. It's coming back. And he caught like a glit of sunlight, like off the barrel or something. He sees it drops it. So it's only like half a second. I'm talking like what's all going to happen. Like half a second, he goes, you motherfuckers. You just tried to kill me. And I was trying to help you. So we lost like all rapport. And it really spying down. He's yelling at us. And I should have pulled Tony was the sheriff's time. He did a great job.

2:09:14But it's like not a productive conversation. Right. We're just he's getting more emotional and more pissed. But I like finally pull him off. And we like, we're done here. We're nothing good is coming from you. Talking to him. And I probably, I let him talk probably too long. But anyway, we come back and they did call and say, oh, it was a new guy. The whole man's came over to get the excuse. He was just too close. And he'll never come back. Bullshit. He doesn't believe it. So it's like fingers are twiddling. And then he gives the deadline. He says, by this is day six the next morning. Yeah. I want a female reporter to come inside the bunker. That was his whole request. A female reporter to tell a story. Then over the Ethan. And he knew there's no other way around it. Like a reporter has come in the bunker. Then over the Ethan. And we're never going to put a female reporter in there. Yeah. Even though we had a short guy, even. The H or T operator said he put on a wig. It's kind of a funny aside. But we're not going to we never also put a solo guy.

2:10:14All right. It's always going to be two people. Yeah. I mean, even a female FBI agent. You're not going to put somebody in there. Exactly. So it was never seriously considered. But we had to. Right. So it's a six by eight foot space. And this is where I think almost one of the moments that I was kind of meant to be there, lucky to be there, fortunate to be there. Because I got to want to now I know my brother's have to go in that hole. But how can we reduce risks? How can negotiators set him up? So how can I set up them for success? And I noticed that before some edge in six by eight foot room and the ladder was here. So I can move that. Sorry. We would drop toys down every couple days for Ethan to play with. And I noticed he took into the far corner over here by the bed. And I thought if we do their toys, Ethan. And then somehow Lou were dicks up the ladder. There'd be separation. Exactly. Yeah. That'd be the most we could possibly get in a six by eight foot room. But it's better than any other kind of combination thereof. And I thought who is the only person that he would speak to.

2:11:18And it clicked his daughter. He had two strange, our handswomen daughters 20 years. We'd call him up contact him on Thursday. One said, I want nothing to do with my dad. But they just said, all right, I'll come help you. So I met we talked with her and we said, hey, would you talk to your dad for us and gave her some like scripted lines? Yes. But I didn't tell her she was the lure. So she was going to be the bait to get him up the ladder. So this is back 2013. I kind of early Skype days. So hey, I said, let's put her in a computer all over the computer down the hatch lid just like a foot and have the daughter on there and try to get him up there. So we all, I briefed at least my ID, H or T. They like it. We're at the sheriff. He likes it. We've briefed the director director similar kind of verbiage on there forget. He says, why would everyone in that room, the seven of us, to verbally concur that you want to go with this plan? Like he put it back on all of us.

2:12:18He wanted to make sure 100% concurrence. And everyone said, yes, yes, yes. And they said, okay, do what you need to do. But before you do it, call me. Think about it from a leadership perspective. You like gave us all authority and took it all back. Right. Right. So we're all sitting there and I'm there. Vance and I went and talked to the SAC and said, obviously, Bosch, you're going to call them back because that's not an answer. And you know, we do believe this is serious deadline. He's going to kill himself and Ethan. So anyway, they do call back. They get approval. And this is day seven now. I've got the laptop, which is hardwired to the little laptop, which goes to the van, you know, 50 yards away where the daughter is. And we go up and the breachers first thing into the place, there, you know, charges on the, there's these three eyeballs where the, he also had not always had 200 pounds, but he had steel cables into a winch. So they couldn't open that thing. So they put the three charges there. And then, excuse me, we deliver the meds just like a routine.

2:13:21That's the other thing to just keep it the same each and every time. And then we deliver the toys and thank God that second condition is met, the toys. And then I lower the laptop. And I'd marked it with like 550 cord. And then we told the daughter, he started talking to me, and then we back out of there. So now we want no more contact with us. We want right the daughter. So then we're watching the video screen. The ground force commander, GFC, he knows the triggers. The trigger one, Ethan is there, trigger two, thanks up. And he said, execute, execute. The charges go. And then the team's run up. Breachers open that lid. First guy goes in. And he's just, he jumps in, imagine like an elevator shaft, but then he's only halfway down the elevator shaft. His like waist is sticking up. It was like a bicycle locks or something that he... Well, we didn't know that yet.

2:14:21Yeah. We just, I see him jumping and we're all like, what the hell? What the fuck is going on? And now he's getting shot at and he's just like hanging there. And it like doesn't compute. Like, why didn't he drop down the bottom? And he sees multiple flashes, but he doesn't know exactly where Ethan is. Because now it's been like whatever, five seconds later. Even though it's still five seconds, you can move a lot. All right, I don't know exactly, maybe three seconds. Doesn't matter. But he doesn't know exactly Ethan's location. So the team leaders, you know, pull him out, pull him out. This is the same wit guy I was in a rambadi with. This is an awesome leader too. And they pull him out. And then they throw in some more, throw in a couple of bangs and they throw in Ella. Another canine, and Belz and Melua. And the canine, she also gets stuck. And we're like, what the fuck is going on? And so now like this is the first time ever, like, we don't quit anything, right? We are going to overcome every obstacle. But it was similar. Or I should say it was like a moment where I just paused. Like, again, what are we going to do next?

2:15:23Like, right, we can't get in the hole. And now we've lost speed, surprise, and violence of action. Like, we have a little of an awesome action with the bangs. But like, what the f? And like a team leader sense that. And this is awesome. That wit just some magic words, but they electrified. He said, guys, this is what we do. Get in the hole. And not that it was like a big pause or anything, but it was just those words. And then the breacher reach in. There's, you think you saw in the video of it. There's two breaches. One guy reaches in. Feels there's cables. He has installed a secondary set of cables, crisscrossing cables, which we had looked down that hole dozens of times during the past six days, seven days. We'd seen no other obstructions. He added them just that morning. So one guy has cable cutters. See that guy's a breaching shotgun. And the two breaches are being shot at. He's shooting dozens around up the hatch lid. And they say clear. And this is one of the bravest things I've ever seen. Again, been shot at numerous firefights overseas

2:16:25and domestically and seen incredibly brave things from extraordinary men in the military and women in the FBI. And at same number one guy, who easily could have stepped out of line of March. Because he easily checked over by a medic and he easily could have stayed out. Right? And number two, I would have filled right in without any doubt. And he gets back. I can potentially in front of the number two guy. Now and then jumps back in the hole. Knowing that there's an armed adversary actively fighting, waiting to kill me. I got to the men I was fortunate enough to serve with the caliber of individuals on H or T. So he jumps back down that hole. And we had rehearsals practiced and he knew he was going to encounter either one of few things. Right? The grizzled veteran asshole, a diabolical man, fight to the death or innocent five-year-old child. He's not going to know which. And he just lunges forward and it's Ethan. Wow.

2:17:25It's the five-year-old. So he grabs him like this. He turns his body towards the subject, cradles Ethan towards the wall. Says you're going to be okay, Ethan. You're going to be okay. Because he knows ever the man is coming right down. Yeah, and after there's a whole team. The salt team coming in behind him. Yeah. And two and three are right behind him. I'll let you back up to. Gets down there. He's got his pistol, fires. It's a Glock, fires two rounds, hits center mass. But he charges him. You know what happens in the Glock? When you're pulling the trigger and the muzzle depressed, it goes out of battery. Yes. So now he has a non-functional weapon, but he knows he's hit the guy twice, but he's still fighting. And so they're testing to go into the ground. Number three guy. And by the way, this is interesting. You'll like this. First guy is a former Marine officer. Sengai down, former Ranger. Third guy down, former Navy Seal. Let's talk about like the perfect, even though wasn't planned that way. It's at the perfect representation of the joint force

2:18:26of the man on H.D. I think that's interesting fact. But Sengai is now taking to the ground. He's trying to un-sling his rifle after they, you know, exchange blows. The third guy that seal has his flashlight. He sees jeans on. And he owes all his guys are wearing cry. So then he works his way up to the head. And I'll just say both of those guys eliminate the threat. And anything comes out. And one of the more emotional moments of my life, just seeing him emerge when all of us again, it worked so hard. And then we batten eyelash about them out of work. But the relief, yeah, yeah, was overwhelming. And he's taking the hospital and he says the doctors.

2:19:36Man, those guys shoot a lot. Because everyone in the flashbangs, we had thrown some 9-mangers. He thought we were shooting at him. So that's the quick down dirty. I tell the whole story in the book too. But it's one of the more incredible examples of teamwork, heroism. Yeah, I mean, it's like a nightmare scenario. Yeah. And they pulled it off amazingly. Yeah, over talking about overcoming adversity and obstacle. Yeah. And for you, you took a management job after this? Yeah, I was so tired of complaining about management. And again, looking myself in the mirror, I said, hey, if you're not willing to do it yourself, stop bitching. So yeah, I went to Washingtonville, office was a supervisor there at WFO and then the headquarters unit chief, then finished up. Yeah, my amy is a assistant specialist in charge. So as a wonderful career,

2:20:36but yeah, interesting to have all three perspectives, right? As an operator going through the door, then the perspective is a negotiator. And then later as a leader, like when I was in charge of operations when nest security and labs are online. So I felt, I don't know, it's confident. And having those three perspectives, I think made me better leader in judgment when to use what tool, for example. Because as you saw, the blending of those tools were negotiators helped enable the tackle rescue, even though the heroics saved the day, was still enabled initially, right, with the negotiators set them up. What was it like, you know, taking that kind of leadership position and now presumably having oversight over a lot of these operations? You're the one they have to call and ask for permission. Well, actually, I loved it. Because I don't know, having been there and done it, like there's, I don't know, a supreme sense of, of not of confidence, but just having gone through like these situations on HRT,

2:21:38like the field office had, we had high risk operations. There were some, Americans kidnapped and Haiti, and I've led the repatriation while I'm on the C-130, with those Coast Guard C-130. So I was really cool bringing back these Americans. But like the risk level wasn't the same as HRT, but the responsibility was higher. So I really kind of enjoyed that aspect of it. And having, you know, people and Miami was just a wonderful group of professionals, and we were counterintelligence and cyber. So I, I've been down there. Yeah, there's a lot of good work in Miami, I truly enjoy that as well. And then you retired what, like, three years ago? Yeah, Bureau? Yeah, then out for three and a half, and now do some executive leadership development at Cornell University, a part of their team. And I'd also do keynote speaking. So I know one looking for their company for a corporate treat or event.

2:22:40That's what I do now. I talk about leadership stories. I tell the FBI stories, but then I have some leadership takeaways. Just so we talk about here, it's kind of the essence of the book. I tell those stories, and then one of the leadership takeaways. Where can people find you if they did want to have you come speak at their event? So I'm on LinkedIn, and my company name actually is InterParameter, which you'll like, InterParameter.com. Most trusted leaders are closest to the crisis. The books on Amazon, so they can connect me through the LinkedIn InterParameter.com or hit me up on LinkedIn. Tell us a little bit about the book itself. Like, how did this come about? What was sort of your motivation for writing it? I had several colleagues in the FBI say, Kyle, you really should write this. Chris Whitcom, he had on. He actually encouraged me. I talked him several times, and he pushed me as well. For the similar reason, we talked about it before, to share. The American people like know about these incredible people that did so much on their behalf.

2:23:40Because you think of the kind of Herkulean efforts that we went to save one child, and I think people need to know about that. So that was really impetus. I want to encourage others to serve their community and their country. And share these stories. Hopefully we'll do that. And the book is called Shipping Chaos. Where can people find it? It's on Amazon, in place, books are sold. It actually comes out in November 3rd. Important, critical pre-sale fate now. So I'd love it. And it's a discount if you pre-order on Amazon. But yeah, there's some riveting stories in there. Again, with those takeaways. Really, I wanted to highlight some extraordinary people, so hopefully it reflects that as well. I was fortunate enough to serve with. Absolutely. Anything else that we didn't cover that you'd really like to talk about? Oh, we've covered a lot. I feel like I've talked way too much. No, it's great. But no, thanks so much for your services. Well, and for telling these stories. I think it's important for veterans

2:24:41and fellow people. Because I think it's cathartic. I don't know. Yeah. I think it helps folks process sort of their own experiences. And also, as you mentioned, for people to hear some of these stories and know that these things exist, maybe for a young person, expands their mind a little bit of what's possible and what they might be able to do. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I hope to inspire others. And I respond like I still, all right, people hit me up on LinkedIn or Instagram to Bureau. I'll talk to that and help them out because I want to encourage service to our country. Because as you know, living the greatest country on Earth and we've got to continually find people willing to raise their hand to serve this country. We recently had Steve Lazarus on, FBI, EOD guy. And we had, what was that gentleman's name? The counterintelligence dude that was involved in the Robert Hanson arrest. I can't remember the, I'm sorry, it's dropped. It's, we're having another one of the bomb guys, Barry.

2:25:42Yeah, Barry Black. Yeah, he's gonna be on here. So yeah, I know it's always fun talking to FBI guys. Well, thanks very much. Rangers, Lou, the way. Yeah. Thank you. So please go check out Kyle's book, Shaping Chaos. It's available for pre-order now. And comes out November. Third. Third. So thank you everyone who joined us. And thanks again, Kyle, for making the trip in. Appreciate the time. Hello, everyone. If you're here in this, you are not a member of the Patreon. You can get your hands on ad free episodes that come out early. And you can ask us questions. Maybe we'll answer them. You can also watch the teamhouse podcast. Completely ad free and early. And you can also watch it live as we interview our guests. And it's the best way to support the channel. So if you can, if you're open to it, you can go to patreon.com slash the teamhouse. That link is in the description. We appreciate the supporters.

2:26:43And we hope you would consider being one. So it's patreon.com slash the teamhouse. Thanks guys.