Michelle Kinney

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1:03Spin values vary. See terms at casino.draftkings.com slash promos. Ends November 22nd, 2026. At 11.59 pm Eastern time. Hello everyone and welcome, episode 537 of the True Crime All the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, my Gibson. Give me how are you? Hey, I'm doing good. You. Always great. You're, I am always great, man. Yeah. You're just good. I'm great. That's just life. That's just how nobody likes me. It's always great. I love my life. I screw you. I can. No, that's good. All right, buddy. You ready to get into this episode of True Crime All the Time? We're talking about Michelle Kinney. 53-year-old Michelle Kinney was a kind woman who was known to take people in when they were down on their log. When concern neighbors found her stabbed to death inside her apartment, investigators utilized city traffic camera footage in the surrounding area to identify the suspect who was another stranger.

2:05Michelle was trying to help. You know what they say? No good deed goes unpunished. I've never quite understood that saying or where that comes from. Yeah. But here's this woman who was known to help people who were struggling and one of the people that she was trying to help, you know, ends up killing her. But these cases fascinate me when you talk about camera footage. Right? We got a lot of camera footage nowadays. And some of it's very controversial. The flock cameras and some of those. But camera footage does help solve a lot of crimes. Michelle Kinney was born on August 25th, 1964. End of it, Iowa. She grew up with four siblings on a farm in the Midwest. She remained close with her sisters throughout her life. Michelle worked as a waitress for many years. She had two sons and four grandchildren. Well, she's got a lot of kiddos of her. Yeah. Right in the right. I'm still waiting for my first grandchild.

3:08I am also 53 years old. And I think I'm going to be waiting. Yeah, I don't know if they're really in a big hurry. Nope. I don't think they're ready. They've said as much. They're probably just still in practice mode. Yeah, I don't want to think about that. But I appreciate you throwing that in my head. Michelle's obituary states that she was a comedian who made everyone laugh and always put everyone's needs before her. She was a social butterfly and was very devoted to her. Okay? And I'll tell you, part of that sounds like my mom. Yeah. My mom has always been that person who puts everyone else's needs before her. She did it when I was a kid. She would buy me new clothes for school and stuff. And she wouldn't have enough money for her. So she'd just wear the same stuff she always had. And she does it now. She just, she looks out for everybody else and herself last. Yeah, she's a sweetheart, man.

4:08She is. A lot of times she'll come over here and bring you soup. Yeah. You know, and then she'll text me and say, I put the bigger part of the soup, the bigger pot in your, and my, yeah. So, you know, just wanted you to know. I'm like, oh, man, you're the best. She does like you. Michelle's sister, Robbie Haas, described Michelle's kind, sweet, and an old soul with a childlike spirit. Michelle's favorite time of year was Halloween because she loved to dress up. She also loved doing crafts. And her favorite tool was a glue gun. She was known for wearing blinged out clothing to match her person out. Yeah. That sounds like you back in the day when you went to the office coming in all blinged out and just closing. Oh, yeah, with the fake, with the rhinestones. Yeah, that little gadget thing you use. What's that thing called? Was it? A dazzler. Yeah, you were a badazel when you had like to bedazzle my gene jacket. Sometimes you calls in the office while we were sitting there doing our review. You were sitting there bedazzling us, you know?

5:09Yeah, because I did not care about you at all. At the time for death, Michelle was living alone in an apartment on Iowa Street and Dubuque. At 145 a.m. on July 23rd, 2018, the Dubuque Police Department responded to a report of a deceased individual and an apartment. Michelle was found by three friends slash neighbors who stopped to visit her in the early hours of July 23rd. One of her neighbors noticed that her door was open. So she went inside and found Michelle dead on the kitchen floor. She said in the 911 call she believed her neighbor had been killed. Yeah. Would you go in? I would, you know, carefully today. Now, 20 years ago, I probably wouldn't went in, but I wouldn't have thought about, you know, preserving the site. Oh, yeah, we obviously, but doing as much research as we've done over the years, you would probably think more about that now.

6:10Yeah. Yeah, I think it would be up to the individual. Now, it might have made a difference that they had numbers. Right? If there was three of them, okay, maybe they felt a little better about it. Right. If you're by yourself, I don't know, maybe just call 911 or... Well, you got to be careful. Please. Because maybe whoever killed her is still in there. Well, yeah, but you don't even know at that point, right? Until you go in, you have no idea. Yeah. But a, but an open door doesn't screen safety. No. It's also almost two o'clock in the morning. Which is even more reasons maybe why you wait outside. If this was 11 o'clock in the morning with the sun out and, you know, all of that, maybe it's a little different. This batch didn't have much information from the neighbors who found Michelle, officer Brandon Goudonkov, who was on patrol, and he responded to the 911 call. He encountered a group of people standing outside the residence,

7:10including the 911 caller. They told the officer they were concerned about their neighbor, but they only knew her by the name Auntie. Oh, didn't even know her real name. It's our auntie or auntie. Auntie. However, you want to say it, officers went in and they found Michelle nude on her kitchen floor. She was covered in blood from dozens of puncture wounds. They also found evidence of blunt force trauma. Michelle's face was unrecognizable, according to officer Goudonkov. And you actually hear that quite a bit, you know, in the stories that we cover, and it paints an extremely gruesome scene. It does. When you think of a person's face being unrecognizable, that means a tremendous amount of damage. I mean, what would be the reason to do something that to somebody's face? You hate them that much, or you hate the look they give you, or do you hate just like that face?

8:11I don't know. I mean, I think if you're law enforcement, you have to try to make something out of all the facts, right? Normally, when we talk about somebody being stabbed 60, 70 times, right, people say, well, that denotes rage. Sure. Well, what does this mean? That you're mad at this person, you want to hurt them, you want to disfigure them? I don't know. It was clear that there had been a great struggle as three cabinet doors were pulled off, and there was blood on the cabinets, fridge, and stuff. Officers found a knife on the kitchen counter, and a bent fork on the floor with blood on it. So, I mean, the fork could have been used on the face. Well, there were marks on Michelle's body, that looked like they were made by the times of a fork. You know how much pressure you have to use to make that happen? Yes, so much so that you're probably going to end up bending the fork,

9:14which I think is what happened here. A blood stained brawl was found in the kitchen, and a bloody pair of men's shorts were found in the adjoining room. I think, you know, as an investigator, you're going to make a lot out of that as well. Sure. I mean, she's found doomed. So right off the bat, you have to go to some sort of sexual assault. Right. You find the bloody bra, but then you find men's shorts, and you have to believe that there's a good chance those belong to her killer. Yeah, potentially. Unless she liked to wear men's shorts, it's because they were comfortable with those. Yeah, which some women might. Yeah. They might like them baggy or buy them bigger or whatever. But by large, I think if you're an investigator, or you're probably thinking, maybe a good chance that these belong to the killer, we mentioned it, right? None of her neighbors knew Michelle's name, but investigators found her ID card. The woman who called 911 identified herself as a neighborhood friend.

10:18She explained that she came over to check on Michelle, because she always stopped by after work on Monday through Friday. She usually hung out around the stoop and talked to Michelle. She noticed the decorations. Michelle normally used to cover her window. We're missing. She sent something wasn't right. So she decided to check inside Michelle's apartment and found her body. You know, it seems strange to me that you stopped by this woman's house every night, Monday through Friday, and you don't know her real name. Find out very strange too. At one point, you didn't say, what's your real name? Or, hey, I'm Gibby. You are. Yeah, I get it. People go by nicknames or things like that, but you would think spending that much time with a person. At some point, their real name's going to come up. So I found that strange. I do too. Police canvas the neighborhood. Most of the residents had no information to give investigators,

11:20but the woman next door provided the useful tip. She said, Michelle had people in and out of her apartment fairly often. She usually had multiple people over at a time. This is a neighbor's pretty observant. Yeah. Which you have neighbors like that. Sure you do. You know, I told the story before about my grandpa. He was that kind of guy. He loved to know what was going on in his little condo complex. And so he would be looking out the window all the time. Seeing what the neighbors were doing, he could tell you who was over or maybe not who they were, but, you know, which neighbors had visitors and things like that. He would be great for the police if anything ever happened. Michelle's sister, Charlene Kilberg, was the one who got the call that Michelle had been murdered. She was shocked and she had a ton of questions. Her siblings wondered who would ever want to harm Michelle. And I think that's a natural question or reaction. You know, we talked about it, right? She was pretty beloved.

12:21She was active in her church. She helped these people out, took in people when they were down on their luck. She seemed like a very nice, great all-around person. Yeah, just super kind, man. So what did she do to someone or what happened that made someone want to kill her, unless this was just a random encounter stranger like attack? Not just killer. I mean, there's much more to it. Yeah, it's definitely brutal. You know, we're talking possible sexual assault, but the murder itself was brutal. Yeah. You know, there are a lot of different ways to kill someone. And we've probably covered pretty much all of them. The blunt force trauma, the up close, multiple stab wounds. Yeah. There is something to that. You know, you are, you're right up in somebody's face. It's very personal, right? When it's an extension of your hand and you know,

13:23you're right there plunging something into somebody. It's gruesome, but you gotta think about that. But there's gotta be a driving factor. Yeah. According to her sister, Joel Stoddard, Michelle went to church a couple of times a week. She met people who were down on their luck, and would let them stay with her to help them out. Shoften kept her door unlocked, and people in the neighborhood were aware of this. I mean, it's great, right? To help people, but it is risky. It's extremely risky to do it like this, right? To just leave your door unlocked, people in the neighborhood just know it's unlocked, that people can come and go. It's a little risky. Putting a lot of trust and faith in the community. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But what it did was it created a very large pool of suspects for investigators. Yeah. Detectives continued digging into Michelle's background,

14:23looking for suspects. The next day, Michelle's autopsy results were ready. Give, she had been stabbed 41 times throughout the head, torso and neck, and suffered blunt force trauma to the head and face. It turned out there was no evidence of sexual assault. How angry can you know, how angry would you have to be? Yeah. At someone to stab them 41 times. Yeah, it does denote anger. I mean, there's no doubt about it. But it would take a couple of days, right? For DNA results to come back from the state lab, investigators returned to the neighborhood to talk to witnesses who didn't answer the door in the early morning hours. Some neighbors reiterated that Michelle had a lot of people in and out of her apartment. Detectives spoke to the woman who lived next door a second time, who said Michelle moved in the summer before. The neighbor mentioned that her walls were attached to Michelle.

15:24She heard Michelle fighting with someone a couple of days prior. Michelle sounded upset. She was shouting. The neighbor said she wasn't sure what exactly the second person was saying. But she felt sure she heard Michelle's voice because she was familiar with her voice. Yeah. She noted that the argument sounded like it came from outside in front of their apartment doors. Another neighbor mentioned that Michelle had trouble with a roommate named Drew. Michelle took Drew in because he didn't have anywhere to go. But she kicked him out a week prior because they were having issues. So naturally Drew quickly became a suspect. That makes sense. Later that day detectives talked to a neighbor who provided a second name. He said Michelle never had a problem with anybody. He knew she had a boyfriend named Tom who had stayed with her for a while. Now he didn't know Tom's full name, but he knew he worked at the hot dog stand on Main Street.

16:26Okay. I'll be honest with you. I love a good hot dog stand. You just love a lot of dog. I do. I actually love to go to Chicago just to get a Chicago dog from a hot dog. Which is crazy because you never like to leave this place, but you're getting your car, your truck drive up the way to Chicago. Get a couple hot dogs. Just drive back. Eat them on the way back and get back here. Just like 10 hours round trip for a couple hot dogs. Totally normal. Yeah. And you always forget to bring the Chicago popcorn. Oh, that's tough. Yeah, Chicago style popcorn. Yeah. I forget the name of that. The big company that makes it. But you know, family members, they jumped in and helped investigate Tom's identity. Yeah. Helped confirm it for investigators. Charlene Kilberg said the first person that came to mind was Michelle's ex, Tom Legrand. She knew Tom had beaten Michelle up before. He struggled with alcoholism and things got out of hand,

17:29according to her when he drank to. Well, this is something that looked like it got out of hand. Yeah. Absolutely. According to Charlene, there were instances where Tom would choke Michelle and even lift her up into the air. Yeah. That's some rage right there. He's got to be in the mix, right? It's a serious person of interest. Michelle had also talked to her sister, Joelle, about her relationship with Tom. Michelle said she didn't like the way things were going. She tried to get Tom to leave several times. Eventually, he did leave, but it got volatile. And the police were caught. So, you know, obviously, Tom is in the mix as a suspect. But for a couple of different reasons, you know, ex. Okay, that's going to put you on the radar. Yeah. Then when you start hearing these stories coming out from her sisters, about the violence that occurred in the relationship, well, that's going to ratchet you up. The lift. Big time.

18:30Right? They're going to want to look at you even more. After they broke up, Michelle told Charlene that Tom tried to come back into her life, but she wouldn't have it. You know, I have a closet full of clothes, but I tend to go back to the same things. The ones I know that feel the best, fit the best. And right now, I keep going back to Quince. I love everything I've gotten from Quince. But what I continually go for is their active wear flown at line. Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe staples, made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and marino wool. Their styles are amazing. And they designed their clothes to become the dependable pieces. You reach for a day after day. Their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweater started just $60. And they are incredibly soft. And we know temperatures are getting ready to drop. Those sweaters are perfect. Everything at Quince is price 50 to 80% less than similar brands.

19:31They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middle men so you're paying for high quality, not brand markup. And it's not just clothing. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make. I love their bedding. They even have kitchen essentials and thoughtfully designed furniture. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order in 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was true crime all the time. It's the best way to support the show. Investigators found Tom and brought him in for an interview. Tom said he and Michelle met through a mutual friend. Several years earlier, he confirmed that they did live together. But it had been almost a year since they broke up. Michelle didn't like how much he drank. Because he was an asshole. Sound like well because he got mean and violent when he drank. Yeah. He noted that they did remain in contact after the breakup.

20:34But he insisted that he had nothing to do with Michelle's murder. But he did confirm another possible suspect by naming Michelle's old roommate, the elusive droop. He noted that Michelle finally kicked him out and drew bounced from couch to couch. So, you know, Drew comes up. Yeah. Okay. You're going to want to talk to him. But then I think when Tom's name comes up, you really want to talk to Tom. Be sure. Because of the situation, right? X, volatile, violence, you know, all of that. But he's saying, no, I didn't have anything to do with it. But you should definitely look at Drew. He's deflecting the Drew. Not doesn't mean that Drew had anything to do with it. Maybe Tom actually did, but Tom's act like, nope, not me. Yeah. Go see this Drew guy. Yeah. Well, they're not going to dismiss Tom as a person of interest. Right? Just because he says he didn't have anything to do with it. What they did was they started focusing on city traffic camera footage.

21:36They found one camera that pointed towards Michelle's apartment door. I think I lucky. Yeah. I imagine Gibbs, depending on where you live, like if you live more in the city, you probably don't even realize all the different cameras that may be pointed at your apartment door. Yeah. That's a strange thing because I can, well, my street, all the ring cameras and those other brands, when people's doorbells and on their eaves, none of them work. Yeah. It's all, it's very strange. They keep going, everybody says that they get new ones and then they just stop working and they don't know why. And the last image is of a burly 60-something year old man walking towards the camera. Somebody with a hoodie on. I'm surprised there's even that many ring doorbell cameras out where you live. You live in the middle of nowhere. It's one of those places that people probably actually do leave their doors. Like the damn munibomber out there.

22:37Yeah. So remote. So officers scrolled through hours of footage from the day Michelle was killed. And they found footage of an unidentified man walking along side Michelle, carrying groceries to her apartment. Okay. So I mean, they're working the case. Obviously they're trying to come up with a number of suspects. But then you hit on this video and you see a person, you know, walking with her on the day she's killed. Well, obviously you're definitely going to want to talk to him. Yeah. Want to know who is this guy and what's the relationship here? So the camera's captured them walking into her apartment together at 7.44 pm on July 21st, 2018. And then the man exited the house alone around 8.32 pm between the time she was killed and the time she was found. No one else entered her apartment. So it kind of locks it up. No, it kind of seems like it, right?

23:40She's alive when she walks in with this guy. He leaves the apartment, what, roughly 45 minutes later. And then she never comes out and then she's later found dead. So unless the suspect was already in the place, somehow, yeah, we're got through somehow that wasn't captured by this camera, which is not as easy in an apartment, usually true. Houses have many more entrances, normally than apartments do. Now we don't know what type of apartment this was, but investigators followed the man's movements on other city traffic cameras. They walked downtown to the next phase bar on central avenue. And I said, right early on that, I'm fascinated by some of these camera type cases. Because it's not always or not even normally, I don't think, just one camera.

24:40It's almost like in some of the shows that you and I love. Right. They are tracking or able to track a person's movement. Let's say throughout a city just by different acquiring different camera footages. It's kind of like London's famous for all the cameras. Yeah, they got a ton of cameras. You and I watch a lot of British crime shows and CIA type shows or MIFI type shows. British. British. Did you have more to say? Yeah, it's British. British. British. You know, the more British shows I watch, the more I think that's not, I mean, that is the one thing that you actually do as far as accents. It's pretty decent. Pretty good. No, that's terrible. Pretty good. That's terrible. I don't even know what that is. That's not even an accent. That's just you're not even getting the words out. So they're following this guy, right?

25:42Through town. The owner of this bar, the next phase bar, reported that he arrived drunk and was harassing women so they refused to serve him. And you know, it's bad when you arrive at the bar drunk. So drunk that they won't even give you a drink. Right. Yeah, we don't need you in here, buddy. No, you know you're bad at that point. He was arrested at 1039 PM on July 21st and charged with public intoxication, harassment, interference with official acts, an unlawful possession of prescription medication. His arrest was captured on Dubute Police Body Cam footage. The suspect was identified as 53-year-old Gary Cornell James. So you know, just it's fascinating. Again, this guy was arrested on the night of the murder, but for things that had nothing to do with the murder. Right. You know, he's drunk in public.

26:44He's harassing women. He's just generally causing a scene wherever he goes. That's my legal prescription drugs on him. He has that as well. Investigators found another incident involving James on police body cam footage that occurred the day before Michelle's murder. Police responded to the home of a woman named Pam who feared Gary James returned to her apartment after she kicked him out. She explained that she had taken him in, but he was doing things that were concerning. So she kicked him out and he just began showing up uninvited. Responding officers entered Pam's residence, but they didn't find James. So it does sound to me like, you know, this is an individual who you know, doesn't have a fixed residence. Right. He's staying with people kind of moving from maybe couch to couch. Much in the same way that people said that this guy drew did. Right. And we talked about it, right?

27:45Michelle was one who was very willing to help people who were in need. That's how it was out there in the public, right? Yeah. She wasn't shy about having it out there. No, that's how her neighbors knew her to be. To the point where they knew her door was unlocked, detectives working the Michelle Kinney murder discovered that James was still in jail, which was surprising as they expected him to be released the day after his public intoxication arrest, which would be very normal. Right. A lot of people get arrested for public intoxication or something else. Normally they just keep you till you, they sober up. Yes, sleep it off. Sleep it off. Sleep it off. You sleep it off. Now you're going to have to come back and go to court or whatever it is, depending on what you're charged with, but they don't hold you for a long period of time. The reason to. Normally before interviewing James, detectives circled back to Pam to understand James's state of mind,

28:47leading up to Michelle's murder. According to Pam, James said he needed somewhere to stay until he got a new place. He stayed with her for a few weeks that summer. During that time, he was up all night pacing and talking to himself. He told Pam he was talking to Jesus. He also took her butcher knives out of the house, but she didn't know they were missing until the day prior. Okay. Now she had told police already, right? He was acting strangely. She got concerned and made him lead. Well, now we're starting to get into more of the detail of what she found strange. Now, is talking to Jesus strange? No, not for most people. A lot of people talk to Jesus. I think in the way that he was doing it or saying it, he's up all night. He's pacing around. He's taking all her big knives out of the house.

29:48Yeah, you might be a little more concerned about that statement and in light of all that. Yeah, absolutely would be concerned. You know, is he unstable? Why? Is he taking him on a knife? And where are my knives? Can I get those back, please? Or do I want him back? Why did you take him on the phone? Because yeah, what is he doing with him or what will he do with him? What has he done with them? But, you know, I know I've talked about this before. And it's the idea of how vulnerable you are when you're in a house with other people sleeping. Right? I go back to my college days. I didn't think about it back then. But looking back on it, you know, three guys living in a very small room. Okay, you're pretty vulnerable when you're asleep. When you have your family in your house, as most people do, are you vulnerable? Yeah, but do you think something's going to happen? No, most people don't. Your family loves you. You love them. You take care of each other. But when you have people, you don't really know all that well.

30:52And who may or not be mentally stable at that point in time, to me, that's a very scary situation. I would have a hard time fall asleep in a place like that. I'd have to have like my own room where I can lock the door. Big time locks or put a little system on there so I can hear someone coming in. But again, you know, for me, it's amazing when these people help others the way they do. I mean, I find it extraordinary. It's honorable. But at the same time, you are putting yourself in a somewhat risky position. Sure are. By doing that. Investigators brought Gary James and for his first interview later on July 23rd. James said the detectives were trying to accuse him of something when he didn't do anything. Detectives then confronted him with a screenshot of the traffic camera footage

31:52that showed him with Michelle. He looked at the picture and said, he didn't know the woman by name. But he admitted it was him in the picture. He claimed he just saw her walking when asked what prompted him to walk with her. He said she asked him to help her with some bags. And that was it. She said she would give him a few dollars for his help. He also claimed he didn't go in the house and left the area. But we've already talked about it, right? Investigators knew this was a lie based on the traffic camera footage. But even when confronted with that, James refused to admit that he went inside or changed his clothes. So they let him go. Yeah. They let him kind of sit with some of these things with his thoughts overnight. The next day they interviewed him again and they decided to switch up their tactics. They knew that James cared about religion. So the detectives told him there would be a time when he would have to face

32:56a higher power about the sins he committed. And he then admitted, I did it. I'm ready to do my time. Wow. And it's fascinating when you look at it from the standpoint of interrogation. Right. Right. It's just like dealing with your kids. The way you might talk to one of your kids, maybe different than the way you would talk to one of your other kids in the exact same situation because they have different motivations. They respond differently. Right. Some people respond to sternness. Others don't at all. They respond to more of a kinder approach. And this is fascinating to me because they must have said, said around thinking about it. How are we going to get him to crack or open up? Right. And they must have settled on this religion angle.

33:57Guilt them in that direction. And it worked. And it did. Whereas, you know, they're basically confronting him with video evidence that, you know, he was in this house and he's like, no, I didn't go inside the house. But the minute they mention religion, a higher power, that got him. He's like, oh man, I can't. I can't be caught lying. I'm going to have to come clean. Yeah. One detective recalled it was like the floodgates. He said, I was in a rage because this girl put me out, referring to the incident with Pam. Right. He had been staying with Pam. She kicked him out. When describing how he attacked Michelle, he said, she asked me to help her with her by. I just went berserk. I went crazy. I jumped on her. I was fighting her. Then I started stabbing her during the attack. The woman pleaded, stop, stop. But he continued attacking her. He admitted he used both a knife and a fork to stab Michelle.

35:01I mean, he did go berserk. Oh, yeah, absolutely. This was a frenzy. Yeah. Right. Knife fork. He's just stabbing, stabbing, stabbing, stabbing. I can't remember the stab count again, but it was. He was in the 40s after that. He was like one or something. Yeah, it was high. Yeah. It was very high. But was this a situation, Gibbs, where he was upset with Pam, but he found someone else to take his anger and frustration out of. Because I do think that happens very often. Yeah. You know, a lot of times these individuals, they don't want to hurt the person they're actually mad at. Because they may actually, you know, they make like them. They might love them. Right. But they are so upset that they're going to find somebody else, right? To take that anger out on. That might be the situation here. James denied that sexual assault was emotive. In fact, he said there was no mode and no intent.

36:05He insisted Michelle's clothes were ripped off in the struggle. He admitted Michelle scratched him, which lined up with the scratches seen on his back. So he just again, he said he wouldn't berserk. So he just went out of his mind at that moment. Yeah. But do you buy this? First of all, he's saying there's no motive. There's no intent. Well, I don't buy that. There's something there. There has to be whether whether it's the fact that he was angry at Pam. But there's a reason why he attacked this woman. Yeah. And to me, someone who is fully clothed, right? Now, we don't know what kind of clothes she was wearing. I doubt every stitch of clothing a person has on. Right. Is going to come off in a fight no matter how violent the fight is. Yeah, this was pretty violent. It was. But for her shorter pants to come off.

37:06Yeah. Her underwear. Her top bra. Oh, yeah. She was found completely new. Right. It's very hard for me to believe that every bit of that clothing flew off. Just came off in the struggle. Right. I don't buy it. Yeah, same here. He said that he took about $50 from Michelle's home. He walked out of the house in Michelle's jeans because his shorts were too bloody to wear. He bought drinks at the bar with the money he stole from Michelle. Oh, he knew that there was a pair of men's shorts left behind the scene. Now that now we kind of know why. I don't know what kind of shorts of hers he was wearing. That he walked into this. Gene shorts. Like, what said jeans? Didn't even say shorts. Oh, just pair jeans. He was wearing shorts when he went in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It said he left wearing her jeans. So he might, you know, he removed her jeans. There's no doubt about it.

38:07Right. Like I said, right? Oliver clothing didn't fly off during the struggle. And then he just saw these jeans and put them on. I wonder if they're like mom jeans or yeah, I don't know. I'd be kind of weird seeing a guy walk in with little rider jeans. Women's jeans on in a bar. I don't know. Evidence from James's clothing. Crobreid his story. And we mentioned it, right? Investigators, they found a pair of men's shorts. They also found some white socks covered in blood in the apartment. James was wearing these tan shorts. And he was also wearing white socks on the video when he was seen entering the apartment. Yeah. So Gary James was charged with first-degree murder. He was held on a $1 million cash-only bond because the judge considered him a flight risk with no ties to the community. Oh, I would think he would be a huge flight risk. Yeah, I mean, it's a person who at this point time has no fixed address.

39:08It's not like he's got a home and a wife and kids and things that would be a little bit harder to run away from. It would be, but he looks like it looks like. Sounds like the type of guy that would pound at any given moment. Bounce. Not pounds. Okay. What does he pound? He's already pounds when he went berserk and attacked this woman. So I was a little confused. Yeah. But yeah, he'll bounce. Using some lingo there, like bounce, doesn't get out of town. You got it. Okay. Yeah. It sometimes takes a while, but we get there. Well, see what happens is I think I'm going to use some of the bigger words I know, but I don't want to do that because maybe you know, you might not understand them. So then I have audience might not understand. No, the audience will get it because they're awesome. I'm the one that's inferior. So I get you. I want to, you know, dial it down a notch or two or five. Yeah. But the words just don't come out quite the way that you use them

40:10every day. Planned. Because they're too generic. Well, that's it. You know, I mean, you only use very big words. And you only apparently use words that run. So there was there was one problem the police had. They weren't sure how Michelle and Gary James knew each other. But they ultimately determined that they were just complete strangers who had this brief encounter on the street. She needed help getting some bags in the house. And I think gives it how kind this woman was, right? We talked about it quite a bit. I think she took a look at this guy, Gary James. And she probably recognized that, you know, here's a guy who might be down on his luck a little bit. Yeah. I got all these bags. I could use a little bit of help. He might be able to use a few dollars. Exactly. To help me take them over to my apartment. I really do think that Michelle was an unbelievably

41:14compassionate person. I think she just wanted to help anyone that she could who she felt was in need. Yeah. I believe that. And it's sad that in doing so, this guy took advantage of her generosity, her compassion, and ultimately took her life. I think he saw a moment of opportunity. I think he did. New sources reported that Gary James had a criminal history in Howard County, Iowa. His previous charges included criminal confinement, strangulation, battery, and disorderly conduct. Criminal confinement. Well, you know, battery, disorderly conduct. I'm sure a lot of people might have something along those lines, right? You get in a bar fight. Yeah. You could get battery disorderly conduct. But when you get in the area of criminal confinement, strangulation, okay. Most people do not have something like that on their rap sheet. Gary James was from Cochamo, Iowa.

42:17Okay. I did not know there was a Cochamo, Iowa. I did not either. I knew there's a Cochamo, Indiana. Yeah. But in Cochamo, the beach. Why did you stress the Moe? I don't know. Cochamo. Cochamo. According to the Cochamo Tribune, James left Cochamo after he was arrested. Yeah. For that crack you up. He did. While on probation in Howard County, after two cases of violence against women, the first case from October 16, 2017 was initially reported as an attempted rape. Officers arrived at the scene and talked to the victim. She said she was looking for a place to stay and thought she could stay at James's apartment. He told her she couldn't stay for free. Implying she should provide sexual surfaces. Okay. She refused and put her belongings outside intending to leave.

43:19He grabbed her, threw her down, and tore off some of her clothes. She had scratches on her left hand and foot and abrasion on her knee and scratches on her neck. So this is something that he's done before? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and does it lend any credence to him saying, oh, you know, there was no type of sexual intent. Right. To me, it doesn't. If you've done it before, I'm going to have a hard time buying you saying, well, that wasn't part of my thinking. Yeah. When the victim is found nude with all of her, you know, obviously all of her clothing off, now I get it. They didn't determine that she was sexually assaulted. But that doesn't mean he wasn't thinking about it or attempting it. And maybe he got scared off or something like that.

44:19James was charged with strangulation and criminal confinement, both felt. But the state later dropped the charges in addition to a charge of interference with the reporting of a crime. In exchange, he pleaded guilty to battery, causing bodily harm. Well, that's a major reduction. It is. This is what ticks a lot of people off. This make a deal thing. I understand prosecutors in some instances have to make a deal to get what they ultimately want. Right. But I think people get upset when these deals are made and pretty much anything of significance in the way of charges is wiped out. And the person gets what would ultimately be a misdemeanor when they're looking at two felonies because battery is not going to follow you the same way that these two felonies would.

45:22Right. Yeah. It's not going to be the same type of record. This is a joke. But yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. Now, we don't know all the particulars. Maybe they thought they didn't have enough to get them. But I just think people get ticked off because it's like people are not held accountable for what they do. And then when they go do it again, what do you expect? Well, that's the problem. If you don't correct the action, if you think, well, all I'm going to do is get a slap on the wrist, so I'll do it again. And I'll figure out how to, you know, play it down or make a deal or whatever. Yeah, it makes us mad. I think it makes a lot of people mad listening, watching. James was sentenced to a year in prison, which was suspended. There you go. So not only does he get the two felonies dropped, he doesn't, you know, they suspend his sentence.

46:24He's granted probation and required to undergo mental health treatment and attend a batterer's intervention program. And I'm not against programs. Don't get me wrong. But I think to like you alluded to, this is a joke. This is not even a slap on the wrist. It's really nothing. And how do you feel good about going back to the victim and saying, hey, you know, we thought we were best to plead this down to this or reduce the charges of this. And we got them. But the one year sentence was suspended. Andy, um, he's out. Yeah. Now again, we don't have all the facts, right? Around this one incident, maybe the victim decided they didn't want to cooperate, which does happen sometimes. That can hurt the prosecution. But I don't know. It is a problem on March 17, 2018. Officers responded to a reported rate. The interview to woman who identified James as her attacker.

47:28She reported she had a knife and stabbed him. So officers met James at his apartment. He was found shirtless with two bleeding wounds in his upper torso, seeming to corroborate the woman's story. He initially followed law enforcement directions. But as officers attempted to have him leave the building for treatment, he refused and he began to argue with the police. He said he needed to recover some personal items before leaving. And officers told him this is no time to be concerned about such issues. He continued to argue and per the arresting officer's report, at this point due to his disorderly demeanor and nature of injuries, I believed it was time to take control of him and see to his medical needs. Since he was apparently not of a right mind to make that decision for himself. He was cuffed, treated and then charged with resisting arrest and disorderly condo. But what that charge did was it triggered a petition to revoke his probation on the older

48:34battery charge. After his initial appearance on April 5, James was released on his own reconnaissance in order to report to the probation department by 4 p.m. that day. He never showed up. Shocking. Shocking. Yeah. And then just three months later, Michelle was murdered. Yeah. And again, right? You're looking at the system and how the system works. And yeah, it's easy to Monday morning quarterback it here, but it didn't work. No. And I think that's obvious. And most people would say it just didn't work here, the way that it should have. I mean, good for the woman that stabbed him. You know, made him leave her alone. Yeah. She probably saved herself from a horrible ordeal for sure, yeah, possible rape and maybe even some other harm, right? You know, I'm I'm all about defending yourself.

49:35In August, 2018, James was ordered to stand trial. On October 10, 2018, Gary James was sentenced to 50 years in prison after pleading guilty to second degree murder. Prosecutors agreed to reduce the first degree murder charge. And to be honest with you, that one I don't have as much problem with. Yeah. You know, depending on what revolves around first degree, there. Okay. I'm sure a defense team can make a really good argument that there was no premeditation, right? He's helping her things got out of hand inside whatever, whatever you however you want to argue it. Yeah. So I don't I don't really have a problem with a 50 year sentence for second degree. No. Michelle's sister Robbie Haas referenced James prior charges in Howard County during the sensing. She said per the cocomotribune.

50:36It sickens me that it took the death of my sister. Someone so dear, so precious and love to likely save other women from getting hurt by you. This is what gives me a sliver of peace in all of this. Her death has to be part of something better. And I feel for the sisters and the family because no doubt they're going to learn and did learn about all of his earlier misdeeds and the fact that he was not held accountable. If he had been, you can make a real argument that he's not out on the street to kill Michelle. Yeah, Michelle would still be alive. If he had been held accountable, Thomas Goodwin, James's public defender said there's cameras everywhere in this city and the evidence was overwhelming and he wanted to plead guilty. I don't know why he would. There's no way he was going to be found not guilty.

51:37Yeah. James is required to serve at least 35 years of his 50 year sentence according to the cocomotribune in a 2024 article on the impacts of homicides on families. The telegraph herald reported that studies have shown the average homicide leaves in its wake six to 10 co-victims. That's what they termed it. Close friends or family who are deeply impacted by the laws. And we talk about that a lot. Yeah. It's not only the immediate family. Well, it is the immediate family, but then there's also the community rounded and co-workers and all that too. Sometimes we term it like the spider web, but it's interesting. I don't know if I've ever heard somebody put a number on it, right? The average is six to 10. To me, actually, it seems kind of low. I'll say it. I did too. I thought it would be a little bit higher. Yeah, like double that.

52:37Michelle sister Charlene Kilberg told the telegraph herald that in the year since her death, they've had to learn how to cope and live with the loss. She said, it's like a big hole in our heart. There's been some healing, but it's still very hard. And I just think it's something you never get over. For months after Michelle's death, Charlene couldn't drive in downtown debuting without feeling sick. The hard to do. Michelle's older sister, Joelle Stoddard, said her death left her with a heightened sense of awareness in public settings. She said, I'm much more observant of my surroundings now. We all grew up on a farm. And I think we were kind of innocent to some of the things around urban life. You know, we say it all the time, right? Keep your head on the swivel. Yeah. Keep your own time ticking. Oh, that stuff, right? And there's no doubt since we've been doing this podcast, I'm much more observant, right? When I get out of my car at a shopping mall or something like that, you know, I refuse to have

53:38my head buried in my phone. Yeah. I want to look and see what's going on around me. I don't want to be paranoid about it, but I just want to be aware. You could say I'm almost too aggressive now. You know, some of the people I've... I think a lot of people would say that about you. That man is too aggressive. He is in my face. Please back up, sir. I think the lawsuits would back that up. But yeah, I mean, again, I don't think it calls for paranoia, but awareness is a good word. It is. Yeah. Charlene and Joelle said they have nothing left to tell Gary James that they didn't say in their victim impact statements. Instead, they choose to focus on honoring Michelle. They also make sure to tip well at restaurants to honor their sister, who was a waitress her entire line. Charlene and Joelle have visited Des Moines several times to speak at training for victim advocates. They also took a trip to Ireland to spread Michelle's ashes.

54:39Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. In an interview for the show The Murder Tapes, Michelle's sister Robbie Haas reflected on her sister's life and impact saying, I think one of the things that Michelle really would want us to know is never stop being kind. Don't be fearful. Stop and say hello to those people that really need it the most. I mean, there's, she's right. Yeah. There's plenty of people out there that need help. Sometimes it's just as simple as you not ignoring them. Like when you walk by, say hi. Yeah. You know, a lot of people are walking past them because they're afraid to talk to them because maybe they look a little strange. I have a reason. And I'll be honest, she knows we wrapped this case up. I love the way that she lived her life. Yeah. Now, I was honest. I said, as much as I love it, I still have to say that by doing it that way, you do open yourself up maybe a little bit more.

55:40Right. But I love it. It's just so selfless, right? To live your life like that. And I'm sure she got a lot out of it. Yeah, I'm sure it did a lot of good things for her. Yeah, I made her feel good about helping people. I think it's, again, it's sad when people take advantage of the kindness of others. Yeah. Or take advantage of people anyway. But this woman really was a class act. And this guy just took advantage of her kindness and killed her for what? Because he was mad at, I think, some woman who kicked the amount of her house. Yeah. And he ended up walking away with $50. Yeah. And Bob drinks. And Bob drinks anyway. You know, it's good. Come on, man. Just just a terrible, terrible whale tragedy. But that's it for our episode on Michelle Kinney.

56:40And it's it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.