Nancy Guthrie Case: The Sheriff's Hidden Record Changes Everything

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All right we got a lot to get through today and it's your questions and we got answers again

because we're radio-shack. We bought the rights to it and we're also selling AA batteries

right back over here in case you need any. They're really overpriced and they're not going to

last you very long but they're radio-shack. Anyway we are here. We're going to break down the

the latest and the Nancy Guthrie case. It's becoming about the Sheriff Nanos case. It's like two

separate things at this point but all intertwined so leave us your questions in the comments section

for that and we're going to try and answer them live here during this during this discussion

and we'll also of course continue the conversation off the air after the fact.

And we're also going to be talking about the latest in the Kelsey Fitzsimmons case. Let's start

out with Nancy Guthrie. You've been sending in the questions not about the suspect, not about

the evidence but the man running the investigation, how the sausage is made and maybe because there's

a problem at the sausage factory, nobody's getting their sausages. So Robin Drink is with us as

always retired FBI Special Agency for the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis program.

This is fascinating. I was I was working on a story about Nancy Guthrie just the other day

and then this popped up into the ether of the 200 in some like 240. I know they're never

directly in front of me to zero. No confidence. The union voting against him. 60 some did not vote

but there was not one, not a single one who said maybe he's just misunderstood.

Maybe we're like I like him but I don't know why not one person voted in confidence. I'm sure of

Natto's you know all about leadership. You know how everything starts at the top. What I mean

what's your reaction when you hear that? You know sadly I wish this is one of those cases

and what we're covering with the nano's angle. I wish there was solid answers on this only because

I don't get shocked by this kind of stuff because I was surrounded by this kind of stuff. You know

anyone that works in an organization and even some organizations that are for profit but if you're

going to work in a government organization where people don't have to produce something do sell

for profit to actually fund everyone you're going to wind up with situations where you're going to

have leaders that really suck and unfortunately you get a lot of them and what happens is when

systems become institutionalized around dealing with just bad leaders and learning how to work around

them that's what's become sad because you start tolerating morons at the top and so yeah seeing

this I wasn't shocked by it not surprised actually kind of impressed that they so many would put

their names on the line saying we want this guy gone now is it going to make a difference at the

end of the day only if nano's will make the choice himself because there's not much animals to do. I

know the talent council is meeting on it yesterday for the supervisors but all they're going to do

is ask him to step down and I didn't hear the results of that yet though. The level I mean they're

the levers that can be pulled are slim to nil because the the way and I just did a whole piece on

this so I'm trying to go off of memory. Essentially if he refuses to provide this report that he

needs to provide about his responses and what's going on. If he refuses to do that then he can be

removed but as long as he complies and provides the report and and shows up to answer the questions

like he's required to do they can request he gets stepped on but they can't remove him so

and that's independent of what those answers are he can completely he can hand them the menu to

Applebee's and go here's my report and well he did turn in what he's calling his report he's

going through the motions and that's essentially how the law is written is if you go through the

motions and do what what is asked of you does mean it's good or acceptable but as long as you do

it then you have you've checked the boxes. It's one of these things where it feels like when these

laws were made and these rules and you know we're put in place nobody was was thinking somebody may

try and circumvent these in such a ridiculous way that that we're going to be put in the situation

it there's such assumptions it seems on so many of these these standards procedures and practices

that people are going to be acting to the best of their ability when it reality we're running

into situations where they're just not you know it would be really good to I mean it'll be

interesting so he appears to be living in the in the court of public opinion I mean

this is one of the reason why you ran for sheriff to begin with is if you only run for those

positions because you want to be out front you want to be seen you want to be heard and you want

to run your mouth and so I mean just think about this if he stays in place and doesn't step down

even if they completely 100% solve this case he's not going to benefit from that in a court of

public opinion they're going to say they did it in spite of him right so he's not going to win if

he stays you know in the court of public opinion and the only way he can actually preserve what he

has left of any reputation try to salvage it is take one for he could say I'm taking one for the

team they've locked the public's lost confidence to me I get it I'm going to step down and I'm going

to let that let it play out because I care more about the investigation rather than and my negative

impact on that I'm having on it because that's what happens you know when I was getting ready

to go on a show the other day you know I was researching the impact this has on cases cross the

board for one thing typically I haven't been able to find a case where people have actually said

the leadership out front did a great job you know when it hits this level I'm that I just can't

find one where people are jumping up and down said hey the the frontman was a great guy ends the

investigators underneath them are good typically we say the frontman sucks and the investigators

doing a good job that is typical and but being able to come back from that it's I don't know

how you would ever do it I don't see it I that that was kind of what I was thinking earlier too

when I was working all this out it was just there there is no upside to this to stay in power

and and it's like you're almost I mean he's retirement age like just just just just be done I mean

come on yeah consider consider yourself lucky that for 42 years nobody checked your resume

that you were able to just sit there and get away with a bullshit resume um for all of that time

and and it took 42 years for it to finally come out and it was by his own his own you know verbal

diarrhea that it was found out because he lied and then and then he lied and he backs it up

and well I didn't think you were talking about everything's beyond Pima County the question was

in your career that doesn't mean it's exclusively Pima County and maybe he's just an idiot maybe

he really did think they just meant Pima County I wouldn't put that past him he doesn't seem like

the sharpest crann in the box um so I guess that is possible but I don't care I don't care if it's

possible the question was clear you didn't apply the standards of the question to your knowledge

and the answer that came out of your mouth was inaccurate that's called a lie and how you do one

thing is how you do everything and so when when you see it in the in one aspect of his life then

you're going to see it manifest ever else because why would you change that behavior in one

play yeah and we are the same person everywhere especially when time has an effect I mean people

can act for a certain amount of time but if you're in place for more than a couple days week

a month or definitely years who you are at your core is going to come out and we don't shift

who we are in major swings we shift who we are even if we have an aha moment and awareness

take hold it's a slow rudder shift and since he very clearly has not gotten over to himself

and it's all about him and trying to please and it's just he again he's trying to please a

public by making it about him I mean just it's all over the place but it's but again it's sadly

predictable that's why I haven't really personally focused on it because I've taken it for a grain

as a grain of salt that typically I ignore the top because because now they because the point

I was meant to make a single I forgot was this what happens is guys like him they don't derail

the investigation but they damn well slow it down because of this mixed messaging because

what happens is when you have this kind of public the only public facing front of the organization

people see disorganization so they don't trust the organization which means people aren't going to

trust whether if I send an elite anonymous anonymously whether it's going to be handled properly

or even handled it at all and so and also the biggest thing ever is and we talk about the other day

his ability for interagency operation that is so critical on major cases like this that all the

investigators his investigators have the resources they need to execute the investigation to find

Nancy and find a culprit that is it and and all those things typically get handled at the top level

or or while you're working on something else it's it's your team that's going to do but he

typically is the individual that should be reaching out that should be accepting offers of help

in assistance as well as reaching out and getting offers assistance but when you don't have trust

in an organization it slows down or his own ego and vanity gets in a way or he gets stove piped

into I'm going to do it this way because I've done this way before like where he's going to send

the DNA to or how's going to do his messaging whatever it is he's thinking like this and he's got

zero apparently who knows but it looks like a zero loving critics in his life saying hey you might

want to consider this you can see him railroading right through with his agenda but the what he wants to

do it's and it's worked for 42 he's got 42 years of reps of doing it successfully yeah so I mean

to someone telling him like you can't do it this way yeah good luck like good luck telling him it

doesn't work that way because it has yeah it's worked all the time for him for all those years

when he's not the first time I'm sure he's been told this is not the right way to do something

and he just keeps doing it I mean that's that's how he seems to operate and has been allowed

to operate for all of that time a lot of people I mean the the question I think so many people are

asking because they're good moral human beings who who wouldn't imagine going into a job and having

light on your resume in in such an extreme way everybody pads their resume to a certain extent you

know we all like we talk ourselves up a bit but like blatant lying is a little different like

no disciplinary issues I mean just completely flat out lying about your history is different

than making yourself sound a little better than you actually are and that's clearly what it

looks like he allegedly had done and got away with for 40 some years and people like how how does

someone then function for 40 some years knowing that that shoe could drop at any day because I

think most of us if we we did that and we got into that position we were able to create that

ruse enough to get to where we were at I think the whole time I'd be in that position most of you

like wait till they do it audit of this and check this out but some people never do it's like once

they get past that the gatekeeper it's like I'm in and that seems to be and why because for a lot

of people that's just how it works yeah you're seeing nepotism at its best not nepotism from a

standpoint of your higher friends in there but yeah we had that there's this phrase inside the bureau

I don't know if it's still there but it was we had the rabbi system it's called if you had a

rabbi above you and you got in their good graces by taking care of them making the boss look good

focusing on their career you'd be included in that club and you know what we're going to take care

of your career too it was always important for me as an investigator especially on these massive

operations I'm doing as well as consulting for my agents that I was consulting for on the behavior

side of the operations again we said this numerous times two strategizing the operation or the

investigation for my case agent clients when I was running the behavioral team that was the easiest

partner world because you're dealing with one or two individuals how to have a great conversation

inspire them to trust you to solve a critical life challenge in their lives that's really what

everything comes down to even when you're trying to get something to confess you're trying to

inspire them to share information in exchange for helping them solve a critical life challenge

to go into jail for the rest of your life potentially you know I can maybe mitigate that I can

be a resource I can actually speak on your behalf so there's lots of ways in which community that's

the easiest partner world my entire energy both in my own career and then and then consulting with

our case agents in the field was what kind of leadership are you dealing with my first question

always with every single case agent is what does your bosses think about this case because that's

the first thing I'm going to deal with because I will always assume that a case agent an investigator

is doing the righteous work if they're if they're going at it when you got a when you got a

plate of a million things in front of you and you only have time to hit five there's a lot of

trust that they're going to pick the five most pressing things that could make a huge difference in

people's lives national security whatever it is and so when I got a case agent says these five

things are the most important thing with this one thing's most important out its whole buffet all

right I'm all in I will do all I can now we got a now we have to think in terms of why would we

how do we inspire management or a guy like nano to support us to do this and so you start managing

that you know what we called it lead this is what the organizations called leadership up

this is where you got to lead your bosses to your conclusion so you can do the righteous work

while you're managing their career for them because most these not most who knows a lot of

these people like nanos they care so deeply about their career which is that public image which

gets me elected that they lose sight of the actual operations and things that matter to their

citizens it's amazing how that can you know it's amazing because I think you probably go into it

you know with those things being very close to the best very close to your hard very close to your

goals and your identity and slowly that that erodes over time in that quest for power and control

and some people I guess are more are more drawn to that to the what was the someone someone said

the siren song of celebrity who said when some judge said that recently in a case I forgot what

it was but somebody said the siren call of celebrity it is kind of that I mean whether it's

celebrity or not but it is it's being the top dog and it's more important to be the top dog

than to actually be right or do things in any sort of way that you're being held accountable

or effective think about that we see this all time so I mean we've been talking a lot about

not just you know nanos in the Guthrie case but we've been talking about the doggers you know yeah

so here you got Jim Bob in IBLP you know a ultra conservative religious offshoot of baptism

of Baptist Church right yeah and so the initial so I just finished the book that his daughter

one of his 19 kids wrote as well as a special shiny happy people and what's really really

interesting is we see the exact same thing so he let's presume he joined and went into this

organization because of great family values centered on family children are blessing from God

all these great beautiful things that fathers other protectors and then a church above that I

mean on paper without doing very very surface level it sounds very nice it sounds like they're

doing it for very altruistic you know humanity family centered reasons but then over time

he starts making money he gets deals with the learning channel with 19 you know that the 19

kids and growing whatever you know show and he gets all these deals and I think the number came out

in the book they said he probably made about 14 to 16 million dollars that he'd never give

any his kids one cent to and then finally his eldest daughter is battling because she's she's under

she's undergoing tax stuff where he was claiming that he paid her but never gave her the money

so she's actually having to claim she's getting hunted by the IRS yeah they're having so he's

she's having to battle her father who's then just to find his actions why I did this because I gave

you a roof over your head I gave you a car insurance and you know so here's a dad that said he did

everything for his family that mission statement but in the end it was greed control and power

but he's believing his story I think the whole time and so is nano so that's my circle back is

that so here's a guy that joins law enforcement I will always presume the best because people don't

join organizations are I'm going to join this organization and just being asked but it happens

and so he joins the organization for all the righteous reasons why people go on to law of

horse and to protect serve and and take care of your community right but then along the way he

gets that taste of power the dopamine starts flowing and then in his mind you see a whole

pattern throughout his life the ends justify the means well if I want to be a leadership and take

care of my people I'm going to have to fudge my resume a bit I'm going to have to exaggerate it

here and you know what all my buddies will back me up because we got the blue wall going so you can

kind of envision this is what's going on his mind and then then you get addicted to dopamine to get

addicted to the power and so as as the as the sense of me takes over the sense of other starts

shutting out hence my book is not all about me because that's exactly what happens is that

we get so addicted to ourselves with no checking balance from a loving critic saying

that's my my wife's famous quote all time is anytime it's something to come up a potential thing

in my career she'd always looking me goes why you

you it'll totally drill anything is like you know why indeed you know what are my what are my

goals and priorities in life because she would always say you're going to be home more around the

family or home less we that's all we care about it was always having someone ground you in people

like nanos zero granted people like Jim Bob Dugger zero because his wife had to be subservient

she had to be yeah so that's how the systems get corrupted it's like no checking balance from the

top and people yeah I mean yeah I mean that's it's it's it's we're seeing that in so many

situations and and when when one is in that sort of state where they're so insulated from any

outside exposure or opinions or voices or thoughts then you also completely fail to see

the the long term effects of of your existence of being even in that that position of power to

which he's in to which he has the power to to solve cases to to affect people's future existence

freedom I mean down to granular levels the power that is there in a position he lied to get into

now now what does that do to 40 some years of cases when we look back on it now because you

I can guarantee after his testimony the other day of basically he lied to get this position and

to maintain this position about his track record there all of these cases basically saying you

know he was hired under false pretense all of those cases are going to take a look at that and go

oh so if he hadn't been here then this couldn't have been done in this case that couldn't have

been done and that led to a guilty verdict over here I think this is a new evidence right

thing I mean I can't say how far any of that's going to go in a court of law but if you have

anything that is you know reasonably questionable and just needs to be pushed over that edge a

little bit to be re looked at it probably will be and maybe that's a good thing in a lot of cases

to have them re looked at if things were pushed in one direction or not but it can also be a bad

thing for cases that really were solved justifiably the right person went away was punished the way

they were supposed to but now all of those go out to be questioned as well because he existed in a

position that he wasn't supposed to be in in the first place because he lied and that's one of

those things he never thought of because it was all about him going into it and maintained for 42

years yeah because guys like him think them ends justify the means yes so if as you know and it's

guys like Bob Mata who would actually have a heyday now going back looking at you know defences

that might have been tainted because he was the one that the ends justify the means so we're

going to re examine all the evidence re examine how it's all collected so I would think that they're

going to go back and look at or someone would look at the cases that he was investigating now

granted when he hit the leadership positions it'll get harder to do that but again they'll probably

do and I would say that anyone that was dismissed any cases that he personally touched anything that he

personally had an interaction with will get a second glance or a third glance or fourth glance by

a lot of people for a long period of time which creates again it creates chaos and and the sad

thing is is that I really do think he's got a good department because again we went through those

numbers the clearance rate of his detectives is really really good which means they figured out how

to work around this guy and and but what happens is when you get some self centered narcissist at

the top he'll claim credit for all their work and so it keeps serving well I'm doing a great job

in my my way of hammering that my way of doing this is working because look at our clearance rate

not taking to account that your clearance rate is great because you because you happen to have great

people in spite of you and imagine how much better it can be if everything was working as intended

you know and like if it's working that good and you're shit imagine if there's somebody good here

in that position how much how it could be like if this is how good you are firing on not all cylinders

if you were firing on all oh my god what let's get there that's what the public wants that's what

that's so you're serving and protecting wants not this whatever the hell we have going on here

but there's so many questions it's going to be very fascinating to watch and see if Nannos

takes what I would say at this point is the righteous path and and just steps down and it's like I'm

okay and we're going to get into that here uh in in our next segment your thoughts in the

comment section on sub-stack in youtube the links are in the description and be sure to press

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