The Duggar Pattern: How a Family System Allegedly Turned Silence Into a Generational Strategy

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Foring for you at the Hidden Killers Podcast and True Crime Today.

This is Hidden Killers with Tony Brusky. Here now, Tony Brusky.

Well, these efforts are back in the news again. Is anyone surprised?

There's too much true crime going on in my actual city. These people live here.

I ran into them at a restaurant not that long ago and I regret holding the door.

There was a phone call on March 17th, 2026 that a father in Arkansas had probably been

dreading making for years. He'd learn what allegedly had happened to his daughter,

his nine-year-old daughter. And anytime you bring up the words nine-year-old daughter and the

doggers in one sentence, you know where this is going to go.

During a family vacation in Panama City Beach, Florida back in 2020 and instead of going straight

to a lawyer, he picked up the phone and confronted the man responsible directly.

Who's the man allegedly responsible?

Joseph Dugger. He didn't deny it. He admitted it to the father.

Then because a tiny town police detective was quietly on the line the entire time,

he admitted it again twice on the record. According to the arrest effort David released by

the Bay County Sheriff's Office, Joseph Garrett Dugger allegedly harmed a young girl on multiple

occasions over the course of that vacation. He allegedly asked the nine-year-old girl,

one of the doggers, Uber Jesus, he, oh my gosh, they feel the spirit, they know the way,

they have the light, they have the only way in the light because Jim Bob says so and when Jim

Bob's your dad and I mean this is the, I hate these people. I hope you do too.

Little dipshit Dugger here allegedly asked the nine-year-old to sit on his lap repeatedly.

He sat beside her on a couch. He allegedly covered them both of the blanket.

What allegedly happened under that blanket is documented in the affidavit and is a basis for the

serious charges he now faces. This allegedly happened more than once. At some point,

according to investigators, he apologized and the incidents reported at least off because that's

how it works with the Duggers. Remember, you just say you're sorry and it's a youthful

indiscretion. Oh wait, he's 30 some years old with a nine-year-old.

Remember when Joshi was a youthful indiscretion?

More like a predatory pattern of behavior that you got in your hands. They're Jim Bob with

your little boys. You little angels. Wonder where they learn this shit.

I'm not insinuating anything. I'm just saying I think we should start looking.

I think more people might start talking.

The girl told no one for years. She is now 14.

On March 18th of 2026, Joseph Garrett Dugger,

7th of Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger's 19 children,

husband of Kendrick Coldwell, father of four kids all under the age of eight,

was booked into the Washington County Detention Center in Fayetteville, Arkansas.

He was a 25-year-old when this allegedly happened. He had been married for three years.

He already had children of his own. His mug shot was released hours later.

Neutral expression. You know the messy hair.

Dark great t-shirt. Kind of that smug.

I didn't do anything wrong. All right, it's honed for it. What, what, but

isn't this how this works? I say I'm sorry and everything just goes away.

You shiny, happy mother.

I tell you what, this Dugger lucked out again that the dad

didn't just murder him, because that's probably what I would have done.

Or there'd be a few limbs missing off of a Dugger when he's found in a ditch still somewhat alive.

Another Dugger, another child, another arrest, and you know, and here's the thing.

Jim Bob, dad to these vicious little monsters. He campaigned

I'm being pro death penalty for child predators.

I say it's time to follow what dad says. Jim Bob, you were right all along. You're right.

Death to people who do this shit. I've been saying it forever. I actually agree with you on this.

Let's kill your kids. Let's round up your two sons who clearly have problems, allegedly,

with touching children, and let's just get rid of them off the planet.

Let's make it biblical. Let's turn it into like a, what word am I looking for here?

Let's turn it into some sort of a biblical story. Let's make it a parable, you know,

and then you can write about it and you can start your own other religion or something.

If people will follow you, you can have the book of Dugger, where the father looks down at the

sins of their children and says, no more. No more. My loins hath created this monster into the world.

And thou shalt be taken from the planet, right? Something like that?

No, no, I'm not actually insisting that we go and kill the daughters.

Saying I wouldn't be disappointed if someone in prison decided to execute a certain plan

that might be similar, but I'm just saying, you know, this is a campaign thing that he

campaigned on. It is actually in Florida. Oh, oh, wait, the charges are in Florida.

In Florida, that's actually on the books. Now does, does what he did

meet that criteria? Criteria will be examining that in the coming weeks. Wouldn't that be nice?

Oh my gosh, it actually maybe could happen by the state itself saying no more.

And by, you know, Jim Bob's own belief system, what he's, what he stood behind in the past

allegedly of being pro, you know, getting rid of these people off of the planet. Well,

you got plenty right there in your own fold. Let's start clear in house. Shall we?

Another dog or another child, another arrest.

And here's a question that sits at the center of all this, the one nobody in that family

seems capable of answering. How many times does the same thing have to happen before it stops

being a tragedy and starts being a pattern? So obvious that you'd have to be deliberately

looking away not to see it more so like a family tradition.

To understand what you're looking at with this family, you have to understand what built them

because it wasn't just religion. It was a specific structure deliberately controlled version of

religion designed whether intentionally you're not to make absolutely certain that whatever happened

inside the house stayed inside the house. Then we're going to be doing a large exposure piece

on this group in the coming weeks. So press subscribe and buckle up.

It's Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger, our devoted followers of the Institute of Basic Life

Principles, the IBLPA non-denominational fundamentalist Christian organization founded in 1961 by

another predator named Bill Gothard. The IBLP operates on what it calls the umbrella of protection.

It's exactly what it sounds like a hierarchy. God at the top protecting the ruling

husbands who protection rule over their wives, who protect and rule over their children.

Women are expected to submit to their husbands instantly and cheerfully. Children submit to parents,

everyone submits to the authority above them all the time without question. Outside influence is

corrupting television, secular music, Barbie dolls, which one former IBLP member recalls being

described as harlots. Winning the poo, which another member remembered being bad because everyone

glorified depression. Oh, oh, your damn ear.

The Duggers were not casual members of this organization. They were its most famous advertisement.

Jim Bob and Michelle were regular speakers at the IBLP's Biannual Family Conferences.

Researchers who studied the movement have described the Dugger show as a recruiting tool,

a way to normalize and spend and spread a belief system to millions of viewers who thought they

were just watching a wholesome family from Arkansas counter kids and go on road trips.

The Brad was built on one message. Our way is God's way. Our family is proof. But here is the part

of the IBLP doctrine that matters most for the story. Reporting concerns to outside authorities

is not just discouraged within its theology. It's disobedient. And when it's disobedient in a

cult or a religion, let's call it what it is. It's a fucking cult. When it's disobedient,

then you're going, you're not just doing something wrong, even though somebody did something wrong

to you and you're reporting it. No, no, no, we're going to make the predator of the victim,

because you're reporting on them and our religion that we made up and pull out of our ass

says that that's wrong. See, these people just kind of flipped the script and everybody

inside's like, none the wiser, so they grew up with... No, they're supposed to handle all this

stuff on their own on the inside in the name of God.

Stepping outside the umbrella of male authority to contact law enforcement means breaking the

divine chain of command. It means in their worldview defying God, the theology itself functions as a

serial wound. And it encapsulates whatever happens inside their home.

So those serial wounds that keep happening, they can't, you know, no one's ever going to know about that.

Victims don't report because they've been taught from birth that speaking outside the family is

the greater sin. And Jim Bob didn't only control this family spiritually. According to Jill

Dougher's memoir, counting the cost New York Times best seller she published in 23, he controlled

them financially as well. Her husband Derek was the first person to ask to see the TLC contract,

the same contract Jill had signed on the eve of her own wedding before she had been given a chance

to read it. Jim Bob had controlled all earnings from more than a decade of network television.

The children performed on camera, Jim Bob kept the money allegedly. When Derek and Jill pushed

back and demanded to be properly compensated for their years of work on the show, Jim Bob reportedly

sent Jill an email with a warning buried inside it. If she attacked the family, meaning basically

told the truth of her life, her inheritance would be lowered significantly. Well, Jim Bob, I got

something for you. I'm going to guess by the time you kick it, there ain't going to be much left

after all the legal fees. Because I kind of got a feeling that the problems with your children go

far deeper than just your children. Don't know what? Don't know who? Don't know where.

It's probably your road we should start going down. Figure out. I mean, wouldn't you want to

figure out too, Jim Bob? If you have two of your sons now have been accused of doing these things,

found guilty. One of, I mean, there's, when you have these sort of problems in your family,

you want to get to the root of it, Jim Bob? Jiminy Bob? Jim Bobby Bob? You want to get to the

root of the problem, don't you? So the problem doesn't repeat itself. Where did he learn this?

Where did he get off thinking this was appropriate? You got a pattern going on with the kids,

something happened somewhere. Who and what and when? I don't know. But we should probably find out

just in case that person might be out there still with children or grandchildren, acting

like an authority figure in a church where everyone has to listen to him because that's the way

it's structured. And if that one person who's the authority figure of the church can't be questioned

and nobody can go outside to report any sort of wrongdoing, I wonder, I wonder,

wonder where this all originates. I'm going to say it goes beyond the doggers because it does.

But there's a chain. And it's high time every wrong of that chain is exposed.

If you've had an interaction with this family,

or really an interaction with the church that they belong to,

maybe not even this family directly, let us know. A little private message.

We'll hear your story. We won't run with it or put it on the air or anything like that without

talking first but without a doubt. But we're going to start doing a little thinking.

So if you got anything to share, now is high time.

And I'm not accusing any member of the Dugger family. Other than these two that already

have been accused, one tried. The other, you know, the accusations are there. He's admitted to them.

I'm not accusing anybody else of doing anything I'm saying.

It's probably time to figure out why this is all going on.

That's all. Take us where the evidence goes. I would think, you know, that'd be the way to do it.

What did it? Oh, actually, according to their religion, if God incarnate Father

says, stop, he'll handle it. Then it's all, you know, just stop everything.

People subscribe to the shit today. I mean, there are hundreds of families, probably thousands,

that subscribe to this religion to this day. They're like, this is working great.

Till your kids grow up and write tell all books. People are so fucking stupid.

According to her memoir, he itemized every dollar he had ever sent spent supporting her.

You know, like you do as a parent, I'm going to, I'm going to itemize my support of you as being

your parent and raising you and totally to stop asking to be paid for her own labor.

He called the show a ministry. He ran it like a corporation and he held the family bank account

over his own adult children's. Had his leverage when they asked questions, he didn't want to answer.

That's not a family. That's a machine. And like any machine, it was built to protect something

and that something was never the children. Now, to the blueprint, because Joseph Dugger did

not invent this playbook, he grew up watching it work. In March of 2002, Jim Bob Dugger learned

that his oldest son, Josh, then 14 years old, had been behaving inappropriately with female

members of the family while they slapped. He did not call the police. He met with church elders.

According to a police report later obtained by In Touch Weekly through a Freedom of Information

Act request, those elders agreed that Josh needed to be put in a treatment program.

Jim Bob's version of treatment was to send Josh away to a family friend and little rock who ran

a home remodeling business. Touched your sisters, go hang some drywall, manual labor.

That was the intervention for a teenager who had been causing serious harm to the girls in his

own home. Good job, Jim Bob. In March of 2003, more incidents came to light, more victims,

including according to that same police report of sister, who was approximately five years old at

the time. Eventually, Jim Bob took Josh to speak with an Arkansas state trooper. Come on,

let's go talk to the guy with a big hat. Not to file a formal report, but for what the record

describes is a very stern talk. That trooper, Joseph Hutchins, did not report the situation

to the Arkansas child abuse hotline as required by law because he's a fucking idiot.

He took no official action. Hutchins should later be arrested himself, convicted on serious charges

involving illegal contact depicting minors and sentenced to 56 years in prison. Jim Bob's buddy.

It's like, everything's anyone shocked by this shit. How is anyone shocked by this family

at any point anymore? How? Jim Bob's taken his little spot of Rosemary's baby,

little spot of Satan to go talk to the trooper that ends up being a predator himself.

For a stern talk.

These people, they fly in flocks.

The mahem Jim Bob chose to handle his son's behavior at his own deeply troubling history.

Wasn't until 2006 after producers of the Oprah Winfrey show received an anonymous tip about

Josh and contacted authorities. Oprah fixed the problem. That Jim Bob officially spoke to police.

By then, the three year status of limitations on felony offenses in Arkansas had expired.

No charges refiled. Josh Dugger faced zero legal consequences for harming five children,

allegedly, for of whom were his own sisters.

The public didn't learn a lot of it until about 2015 when in touch weekly published the FOIA

obtained police report. And here's a detail that tells you everything you need to know about how

this system operates in practice on May 21st or 2015. The same day that report was published in

Arkansas judge ordered all remaining copies of it destroyed. The institutional evidence of what had

been done to those children was being legally erased in real time because it's Arkansas.

On the same day, the rest of the county was reading about it for the first time.

Josh resigned from his position at the Family Research Council and the Christian lobbying

organization where he had spent two years campaigning against gay marriage and advocating for

faith, family, and freedom as a public spokesperson. Then one month after 19 kids and counting was

finally canceled over the scandal. The Ashley Madison data breach it and Josh Dugger's name

was on it. He paid for an account on a website explicitly designed to facilitate extra marital

affairs because he just couldn't help himself while employed as a family values lobbyist while his

wife was home raising their children while his parents were on television telling America how

Christians were supposed to live. His public statement read in part, I have been the biggest

hypocrite ever while in spousing faith in family values. I've secretly over the last several years

been viewing pornography on the internet and that's this became a secret addiction and I became

unfaithful to my wife. He said it himself. He knew exactly what it was in the family closed ranks

around him anyways. In April of 21, federal agents arrested Josh Dugger on serious federal

charges involving illegal contact depicting minors. Material downloaded onto a work computer at his

car dealership. As it surprised anyone, he became a used car dealer. He had installed a hidden

partition on the machine specifically to bypass the monitoring software. His own life had

placed on the device to track his internet use. He was convicted in December of 21 sentenced to

12 and a half years in federal prison. He's currently incarcerated at FCI Seagavill in Texas,

earliest released 2032. And here's a fun note while that was going on while he was he was staying

with a family friend for a little while before the trial and all that shit went down.

I actually found out the address of where he was staying with the family friend and I googled it.

It was behind a chucky fucking cheese. I'm not kidding.

I know you can't you can't make this up.

After the 2015 revelations became public, Josh's cousin, Amy Dugger King drove to the family

compound and confronted him directly. She found him parked outside in an RV while his sisters

were inside the house and tears. She told him that if he had ever tried to harm her, she would have

called the police. Who? According to Amy's own public account, Josh Dugger's response was three

words, I knew better. Well, that's spoken like a predator. I knew better. Meaning he knew who he

could pray upon. He didn't mean he knew it was wrong and stopped himself. He meant he knew who was

safe to victimize and who wasn't. He assessed, he calculated, he chose three words. The entire

portrait of who Josh Dugger is sitting right there on plain sight. And I think that's the problem

with all the Duggers. They know better. Each one knows better in different ways.

Not that all are predators. There's not. There's so many that are complete victims of their family.

But they know better. They know better than all of us, just how horrific

and deplorable and disgusting and just vile. Some of their family members are.

And some have certainly spoken out in books in certain ways. I think it might be time to go a

little deeper girls. You know, everybody made their tell all books and it was, you know,

it might be time to like really lay it down and share the rest of the story.

Because I think there's other chapters here that no one's aware of. I could be wrong.

But if there is, if there's more and those people are not exposed,

well, let's, you know, protecting predators.

It's up to everybody how they want to handle this sort of thing, you know, how someone wants to

get involved in the media. The second you start saying something, I mean, I can't imagine

wanting to do that. I don't blame anybody who's been preyed upon that says, you know what?

Not for me. I've already been through this shit. I don't need to revictimize myself. I can't

handle it. It's okay to say that. There should be no shame in that whatsoever.

It's easy for me over here not having been victimized that way to say, you know, maybe it's time

to say more if there's more. I guess what I would say is this, if there is someone, if there's

anyone within that family that has access to children, that you know should not have access to

children. It is incumbent upon you to say something. It is incumbent upon you to expose that,

to protect those children if it exists. I'm not accusing any other member of the

dog or family of doing this saying the odds are probably pretty high statistically.

But we don't know. Might just be these two. But if anybody knows more and it's got the evidence,

those people need to be stopped because they will not stop on their own.

And I highly doubt, again, my opinion, I highly doubt it was the only time.

That fuck face number two over here did this.

Here's a detail that should follow Jim Bob Dugger wherever his name appears in public disclosure

because it is one of the most staggering examples of documented hypocrisy in recent American political

history. In 2002, the same year, Josh Dugger was causing serious harm to female family members

inside the Dugger home in Arkansas. Jim Bob Dugger was running for the United States Senate.

And on his campaign website in the Q&A section, laying out his policy positions,

archived and verified by multiple outlets, including Snopes, Jim Bob declared in writing that

are an incest represent heinous crimes and such should be treated as capital crimes,

capital crimes punishable by death. So anybody who's like, oh my god, earlier, you said

they should put the Dugger children to death. I'm following what Jim Bob has already suggested.

Their own father has said this should be the punishment. And I agree, Jim, I agree.

How do we get this into place? And how do we start enacting it?

He campaigned on executing perpetrators of exactly what his son was doing in his own house

at the exact same time. He promoted himself as the only true moral candidate in the Arkansas

Republican primary. He knocked on doors on the platform. He asked people to vote for him on his

platform and he was simultaneously meeting with church elders about his son, rather than calling

the police, running out the statute of limitations clock and sending a teenager who had

been harmed, who had harmed five children to help renovate someone's house in Little Rock.

That looks like you're a predator. Hey, again, do some mudding and taping over here on the drywall.

Drywall, the depravity right out of you. He lost the primary. His son remained very much in

home and the girls in that house had nowhere to go. And here's what else needs to be said,

because the Dugger family did not operate in a vacuum. They had a partner in all this. It was

called TLC. According to published reports, the network reportedly paid the Dugger family

somewhere between 25 and 45 grand per episode for 10 seasons of television. They built a ratings

franchise on the fundamentalist IBLP household in marketed into America as wholesome family entertainment.

One branding expert estimated the Duggers earned about 25 million annually when the revenue streams.

The network deal, the endorsement speaking fees, book deals were combined.

When Josh's troubling history became public in May of 2015, TLC did not cancel the show.

They pulled episodes from the schedule temporarily, waited out the initial wave of outrage,

consulted with victim advocacy organizations for the optics, and then six months later rebooted

the entire thing as counting on a sped off focused on the older Dugger children. They kept filming,

they kept paying, they kept profiting. Counting on ran on for six more years, it ended in 21,

not because TLC made a principal decision, but because Josh Dugger was arrested by federal

marshals and the network no longer had a choice. They issued a statement and they moved on.

The network didn't cancel it because it developed a conscience, it canceled it because its product

had become legally indefensible. For years, TLC has collected revenue from a show built on a belief

system that silenced victims glorified male authorities and created female submission as a virtue

and they marketed it as family programming. They didn't create the Dugger machine, but they

absolutely funded it. Now pull back because this is where the story gets larger than one family.

Bill Gothard, member him. The man I talked about at the beginning of this who started the cult.

The man who's teaching shaped every aspect of other Duggers raised their children.

Well, he resigned from IBLP in 2014 after more than 30 women came forward with allegations of

harassment and misconduct. A civil lawsuit alleged he had covered up serious harm to minors

with his own organization. The lawsuit was dismissed on statute of limitations grounds.

The same legal clock that shielded Josh Dugger and Arkansas shielded the founder of the organization

that spiritually justified his parents' silence. After Gothard was pushed out,

sources interviewed in the Amazon prime documentary, shiny, happy people.

Dugger family secrets alleged that Jim Bob and Michelle stepped into the vacuum,

encouraging IBLP followers to relocate to Arkansas, effectively positioning themselves as

a movement's new standard bearers. Former family friends, Jim and Bobby Holt said in the

docu-series that Jim Bob and Michelle have become Gothard's replacement, encouraging people to come

to IBLP and moved Arkansas. Bobby Holt called it a cult move.

They did not walk away from the system that failed their children. According to those accounts,

they took it over. And here's what that system looks like in its most devastating form.

In June of 2015, Josh Dugger's sister, Jesse, one of the victims, went on Fox News and defended him.

She told Megan Kelly that calling Josh a predator was so overboard in the lie, really.

She said he was a boy, a young boy in puberty, a little too curious about girls.

She described what had been done to her and her sisters as mild and appropriate touching

on fully clothed victims. Most of it, while girls were sleeping, she was a victim on national

television, defending her abuser. Because she'd been conditioned to do so by her cult family.

Using language that minimized her own experience. Because the system she had been raised inside

from the day she was born had given her no other framework for understanding what had happened to her.

That is what the IBLP umbrella produces when it's working exactly as designed.

That is what submission culture looks like when it is fully operational. The victims don't just

stay quiet. They become the defense. Some of the Dugger children eventually found their way out.

It took years and it cost them. Jill Dugger Dillard was the first to break publicly in the

most honest about what it cost her. She described Jim Bob in legal proceedings as toxic and

verbally abusive. She told Vanity Fair that she maintains only limited contact with her father

and that establishing strict boundaries has become necessary for her mental health.

She was the only Dugger sibling to participate in the shiny happy people docuseries.

Her memoir laid out in detail the financial manipulation, the coercion, and what she

described is 15 years of television under-gritted by secrecy and lies.

She said many of her siblings had since come to her privately asking how to make sure Jim

Bob could not infiltrate or control their own marriages. Sounds like a lovely family you got

there Jim. He looks just as plastic in person as he does on television.

Ginger Dugger Volo left IBLP in 2017. She wrote becoming free indeed in 2023,

calling the teachings wrong and describing a childhood faith built on fear rather than grace.

Jim Bob reportedly disowned her at one point for wearing pants. She now lives in Los Angeles and

says that said the IBLP's teaching left her crippled with anxiety and terrified of the outside

world. Amy King Jim Bob's niece confirmed her estrangement from the family years ago.

Her husband said it plainly. The Duggers don't talk to us. After Josh's 21 conviction, Amy

publicly called out Josh's wife Anna for staying offered Anna seven children a place to stay

and never heard back. Joanna Forsyth confirmed she and her husband distanced themselves from IBLP

after a marriage and were never formally involved with the organization.

Those are not people who found it easy to leave. These are people who have been told from

childhood that leaving the umbrella meant abandoning God and they left anyway. It's not a small thing.

When Josh Duggers stood trial in December of 21, Jim Bob Dugger showed up in the courtroom gallery.

He sat behind his convicted son Anna Dugger who had given birth to their seventh child just weeks

before the trial began attended every single day. Jim Bob and Michelle statement after the guilty

verdict read in part as parents will never stop praying for Joshua and loving him as we do all our

children. Not a word about the victims, not a word about the children depicted in the illegal material.

Josh had downloaded and stored on hidden partitions of his work computer at his used car dealership.

Just love for Joshua prayers. God's grace is staining them through the ordeal.

The ordeal of having a son convicted on serious federal charges was in the Dugger family framing

something that was happening to Jim Bob and Michelle. Not something their son had done to other

people's children. Now it's March 26 and Joseph Dugger awaits extradition to Bay County, Florida.

No attorney has been publicly identified. No statement has come from the family.

His wife Kendra has not spoken publicly. Jim Bob and Michelle have said nothing. Investigators

have not confirmed whether they believe there are additional victims beyond the girl who finally

came forward after five years of carrying this alone. And according to reporting by Fox 5 Atlanta,

Jim Bob and Michelle Dugger reportedly told authorities they were aware of the allegations

involving Joseph and reportedly chose once again, allegedly.

To handle the matter through the church, rather than law enforcement, internal counseling,

not a phone call to police. If that reporting is accurate, again, I can't confirm it,

but that's what allegedly they're saying over there. It's the second time. Same parents,

same choice, same system, a different child paying the price for all of it.

Isn't it nice, signing happy people? Here is what this case is actually about.

Underneath the mug shots and the affidavits and the charges, the IVLP system

was not a footnote to the Dugger story. It was the architecture. It taught perpetrators

they could seek forgiveness internally, privately, quietly within the walls of the church,

with no legal accountability. It taught victims that their worth was measured by submission,

that speaking outside the family was the real transgression, that the umbrella would protect them

as long as they stayed quiet beneath it. It taught parents that God's justice was sufficient,

that church elders were enough, that a stern talk in some manual labor could cover what the law

would have called a felony. And then it gave that family a television show, a network deal,

a political platform, a decade-long national audience, a millions of people who had no idea

what was happening behind the matching outfits and the wholesome smiles. And the Duggers used

every bit of it to stand in front of cameras and tell the rest of this country how to live.

While reportedly knowing in their own home exactly what was being buried, a nine-year-old girl

on a family vacation deserved better than a blanket in apology in five years of silence.

She got a father who finally made the call.

And if you know something about this family,

if you were affected by these fuckers, it's time to speak out.

Giving your thoughts in the comments section.

Unsubstacking YouTube. It is, it is incumbent upon anyone if they know that a predator is still.

In the midst of children, even if they no longer have young children of their own.

If there's grandchildren, if there's nieces, nephews, whatever the hell there may be,

if there's connection with small children, and you know that somebody has a propensity to do this

sort of shit, and you've experienced it and you've not called them out and you were a grown-ass

adult. Sorry, that is your responsibility at this point.

And it's horrible that horrible things have happened to you and I get not wanting to.

But if you can prevent more people from being victimized by these monsters because they will not

stop, then it is upon you to call them out.

We'll continue our conversation in the comments section on Substacking YouTube.

Until next time I'm Tony Burzky, we will talk again real soon.

Well, let's start out the week with the doggers, shall we? We've got a lot of reaction to this story

over the last 72 hours. So we're going to get into it because there's a lot of confusion,

a lot of complicated dynamics in this story. It's kind of picking up where we left off a couple

years ago with Josh and now, apparently, another sibling. I guess when you have 19 kids

encountering, I guess your odds do go up a certain amount that there is going to be some

level of criminal behavior. But then you start to see a pattern of the same sort of things over

and over and it starts to make you go, what's going on here? So we're going to do just that.

And I want you guys to weigh in in the comments section on YouTube and Substack or Facebook or

wherever you're watching us and listening to us right now. So you can be part of the conversation

as well. With me, as always, Robin Drake, retired FBI Special Agent, see for the counterintelligence

behavioral analysis program. Yeah. So the doggers, they're here in my town. Like I've run into them

several places over the years. I opened the door for Jim Bob not that long ago at a burger restaurant

and I didn't realize I'm like, oh, oh, and they just kept coming. It was like a clown.

They could sell by the tribe behind them. It was. It was literally like I'm there and I'm like

just like opening the door like as you do. And I'm like, he likes criminal. I'm like, oh,

God, it's them. And and then they just kept coming, incoming, incoming, incoming. And they were,

I mean, it was just simple interaction. They were very friendly and polite. I was way back.

I was hoping to God they hadn't seen me go off on a rant about their brother, which I don't

think they did. But yeah, I don't do social media till they're married. Yeah, it's it was that part

of the yeah, is that part of the thing? Is it like once you get married, you may use the

adress. Oh, so so toy, you know, we're chatting before the show. This weekend was all about learning

about the doggers. And that's why I'm smiling. I love myself a great cold man. I, and again,

this is all our opinion. This is, you know, allegedly insert all that stuff there.

And when you read the, you know, I've been listening to Jill's book all week, well,

probably yesterday and today, mostly, and I'm about three or four hours into it. And it's,

it's, I love because, you know, when you have source material that gives you great context,

rather than just court material, it really gives you a deeper understanding of what makes people do

things. How does this actually happen? And so that's what I've been able to kind of really pour

through. So I've been really diving deep. And man, I just cultures. And again, I can

characterize in a cold, they wouldn't say it's a cold. And it, it's kind of, it's kind of on the

fringes of it. And we'll obviously dive into it. But it's a definitely fascinating belief system,

which if it wasn't corrupted by evil deeds, you know, it's, it's, it's wholesome. It's nice.

It's, it's, it's to a degree, you know, so, I mean, couldn't like any religion, I guess,

be wholesome and nice to us. I mean, I guess there's some you could clearly argue,

you could not be, but, but, but I think like, like, like, and like it, if a pure one at its

core words, not trying to control people, words, but at the end of the day, aren't they all trying

to control people? That is really dive religion. Yeah. The oldest religion is control. And that's

what it all come. And again, as a species, you know, just evolutionarily wise, you know, we didn't

evolve beyond, you know, what chimpanzees can do is, is roughly a hundred and 150 is the biggest

tribe they can manage. But the way you go beyond that, the way we did as a species is religion,

because it offered a cause and effect control. It was the first legal system that comes in a place.

So there's consequences for actions. And so it allows us to evolve a society. It's how we did evolve.

But there's, there's oodles and oodles of religious out there, offsprings of them, offspirts.

But in all these cases where they take such a, and again, when you dive into the background of

their religion, I, the, I can't remember that. I, I, I, I B L P. I believe. Right.

Right. Fundamental is Baptist basically, you know, really extreme conservatism. There's a lot

of really nice things in there when it comes to family and feeling safe. And the whole premise is

to how do you feel safe and provide a sense of security in a chaotic world? I mean, that's what

really attracts people into this. But inevitably you get some nutter in there. It does a lot of harm

when they take advantage of that system. So yeah, I mean, and I, I saw in case you're just

getting caught up here and wondering what's going on. Joseph Dugger is the latest one to face

charges. He's 31. He was arrested on March 18th of this year, 26 in Arkansas. He faces charges

in Bay City or Bay County, Florida related to an alleged incident from 2020 during a family

vacation in Panama City Beach. Now before everybody starts jumping into the, well, that was five

years ago. Yeah. And the kid was nine. Okay. They're 14 now because I've already heard this argued

this weekend where the first thing is, well, it was like, but yeah, they're nine. They know what

that they good luck figuring out what's happening to you from those that are around you that are

supposed to be respectable, trustworthy and very godly adults. And then you turn out a couple of

years later, oh, you mean what he was doing to me under the blanket was inappropriate? Yeah.

You wouldn't know it when you're nine unless that has been exposed to you as something horrible

and bad. Well, he came clean on it. Like, he's admitted to it. So anybody who's going to go down

the road of, well, it's these years later, he's admitted to it. Yeah. You know why? It's part of

the religion. Yeah. So as long as you admit it, and your sin is forgiven, that's what it's all about.

So is it just don't get caught then? I mean, don't like if you get caught, then you got to admit it.

But if you're admitting to it, then you know it was wrong. But you admitted to parents because

parents are the ultimate authority, not the legal system, although they don't tell you not to

talk to legal system. So it's again, they have their hierarchy and that's what I've been doing

my deep dive on. It's like, how does this system work? And so the parents are the ultimate

authority at all times, honor, thy parents and Jill in her book was talking originally about how

she thought that was until the age that they get their own families, their own marriage,

but it doesn't really end. Because if you think about it, they have reps from a very, very young

age. So for the sake of argument, we'll use the word cult, not in a negative context or anything,

just as a collective mindset. So when we think of cults, and we think of like the

Vanche de Vidions or whatever it is, you know, and people that are sucked into these groups and

organizations at an older age, then those reps they have as part of the indoctrination only

happen for a period of time. And a lot of times once they're mature or mature-ish in their 20s,

maybe 18s, 30s, 40s. What happens is that inside a family of, you know, 14, I think when they

started the TV specials on the learning channel and then up to 19, you're indoctrinated in reps

from birth that this is the way it is. This is what makes you feel safe because they use throughout

all the descriptions. Fear is the greatest motivator and the only way to overcome fear is to

feel safe in family and who makes you feel safe is the parents and their belief in God. So the

structure is very cloistered, very exclusive, but it's also like every time they're exposed as

something the parents would explain it, the parents would say do this, do this, do this.

They had a lot of, they, what they thought was transparency and openness and communication,

internal to the family, but they were never educated on Jill said on sex education. It was very,

very rudimentary, not appropriate or not appropriate. And the big thing above all else was forgiveness,

always must forgive it. And it's a sin not to forgive. So they were in fear of not forgiving

a porn behavior. See, I mean, it's a, it's a bad cycle of something really wrong happens.

Yes, it locks in predatory behavior over and I mean, it just, it enables it completely.

And you hope to, and I guess here, I don't know if this is the theory of it where it's like, okay,

if everyone in this religion or in this family is perfect and without sin, which none of them are,

I guess it could function okay, you know, but that's assuming that there's not one bad apple in

here that's going to push it to focus. I mean, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, in principle,

the forgiveness thing, I mean, it's okay if you're like playing basketball or something and somebody

shoved somebody a little bit too much. My bad, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have done that. I got, you

know, innocent things, things like, I stole a cookie, whatever, things that aren't like,

traumatizing for the rest of one's life. Then, then okay, I get that. But the thing is, it's like,

they, they seem to like, enter it on this, this, this plane of delusion that nobody would ever

go and do the horrific shit that these doger children have been accused of doing and have admitted

to doing. It's like, that assumption, it's like, it doesn't equate. So, it's never considered

in, in the whole factor of existence, in the way that these people function because, well,

nobody does that. We're all godly human beings. And then the second someone does,

it's not necessarily, um, let's prevent this from happening again. It's just ask for forgiveness

and move on. Right. Because there's no accountability. Yeah. As asked is if we're something really

minute? No accountability. And that the first iteration that Josh was accused of this, um,

the thing that Jill pointed out also was, there was no therapy. There's no counseling. They don't

believe any of that. They sent them away to work hard. That's it. Every time he had a trans

aggression, just to work harder, we'll separate you from the family. You, you'll be fixed by hard work

and then you come back. Zero accountability for that. And, and, um, we talked about last week

with a coffee endeavor a bit, you know, this, actually, no, it wasn't coffee. It was, um, shot,

Vaughan, uh, love bombing that they do in these, um, in particular case. And so what's happening

here is, you know, um, Jill, it really struck me reading it and listened to it with Jill on one

of the siblings was they validation bomb you. So you're constantly going for approval, always

approval. So your actions, if they're righteous actions, you get approval. And that's what they're

all the children we're seeking was approval. And so who defines what you get approval for?

The parents. And so the internal structure is extremely rigid and kind from their context.

It was, it's, it's a fascinating situation they're in. Yeah. And how could you go off

against the, uh, the leaders because they just seem like kind of jovial doofuses? Yeah.

I mean, I mean, that's, I mean, the, you know, the, the, or I would say the gym bob had put out

for all those years of, I'm just kind of this goofy guy, you know, like not threatening. Now,

I mean, you don't, when you see him, you know, there's plenty of threatening folks out there.

They're like, Oh, God, he's not one of them. Yeah. Um, but I mean, that's what we saw on the surface.

That's what we saw publicize when we actually get down to, you know, some more brass

tax and accusations from behind the scenes. It's like, Oh, maybe everything was not as perfect as

all supposed to be. I'm not accusing of any crime or anything like that. And no malicious intent.

I mean, you know, there was not a malicious, you know, and we see that with other cults, you

know, it's, this is not a lorry deal. Valor kind of cult. This is a, this is no malicious tent.

This is just stupid. It's malicious through ignorance is what it is. Yeah. And I think in a lot of

ways, incidental maliciousness. And at some point, where, where does the line get drawn? Where

your head's in the sand, pull, pull it out, pull your ass out of the sand. This is insane.

Because it keeps going, you can't keep pretending that this, these, there's not a problem here.

Or you're just going to pray it away. But that seems to be the, um, the way that they try to do it.

Joseph, uh, the one who's been charged now, uh, he grew up watching, uh, his family protect Josh

from consequences for years. If you want to go way back, we don't have to relitigate Josh.

But we get into that where he had the acu, there was accusations against the sisters, the sisters

came out. The sisters were kind of forced to go on Megan Kelly and downplay all the bullshit,

which was then, uh, they've talked about in years later and shiny, happy people and in her book,

um, to basically, you know, kind of keep the peace, keep everybody happy. And we didn't even know

what happened. It turns out, yeah, he, they, they did. Uh, and Josh knew what he was doing too. And then

they kept pretending that Josh didn't know anything about the birds and the bees all the way up to his

televised wedding. Um, I mean, it was just one big ruse, uh, the whole time. I, I just, I don't buy

for a second that Jim Bob and Michelle weren't aware that, you know, this was going on. They were

aware, but they just, they, they seem to think that that he was healed and that these sort of

things wouldn't continue on. And then he goes on into life as his car dealership. Uh, and then

it's busted because he partitions off his computer to have a second half of it strictly for

CSAM material, basically. Um, and then that's why he's in jail now until 2032 or so.

So there's, there's Josh. So Joseph grows up watching this and he watches some of the family run

away, some of the family depart and have nothing to do anymore. Well, mom and dad,

every sits there, we will love our children forever and we forgive and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Um, so when you have this going on and, and basically there's not,

there's not any real consequences, I guess, to the actions from within the family. It's still love,

it's still this. Yeah, Josh is away. We are, we, Josh's reaction to this has been, uh,

we'll get to that in a little bit. He was calling it, uh, he is a term that was insane.

Um, basically stating that this whole thing, uh, is, it's, it's, it's exploitation and it's,

it's, uh, fantasy when, when his brother admitted himself, right, he set himself up as a victim.

Yeah, it's like, no, Josh, this is nothing to do with you. This is not sensationalized,

a sensationalized fiction is what he said. He admitted to it, Josh, it's not fiction. I don't

know what world you like to live in where you're still saying everything's fiction. He clearly

hasn't really atoned for his sins, if you will, if he's still kind of going down that road.

What do you think about this? Just, just the fact that he, you have this sort of environment

growing up, you, you have a brother who had been accused of these things has been found guilty

of these, of, of offenses, you know, in this range. Um, is it remotely shocking at all,

then that you have another sibling that somehow seems to go down this road? I mean, even,

even a worse road, I would say than Josh, because he's a grown-ass adult. Yeah, um, I, the research

I did on this, ask, basically asking that same question, how does this happen? So, so the

research will show who knows what happened to this family. There's been no reports of this,

but the research will show that typically a pedophile inside a family, it just doesn't blossom

out of nowhere. There's been some sort of exposure in the past that actually gives him this idea of

this, um, especially if it's internal to the family. So, but well, that's just a nugget to be

kept aware of that there's been no charges. There's no other claims of anything, but it just doesn't

blossom. But I then did some research. How would it blossom? How would this happen? If there was no

prior exposure to this is someone just miswired or rewired or whatever hell's going on, you know,

the nature versus nurture thing, there might be some of that, but the way the household structure

and their religion in home was laid out, it was, it was, it was, it was set up for this. And this is how,

very small house when they're growing up, basically three bedrooms as I understand it, you know,

one for all the girls, one for all the boys. Yeah, and they got their compound eventually when

the two of the joke kicked in. Right. But very, very strict when it came to any kind of sexualization,

there was none. And what they wore is very, very strict internally. They did not talk about

the birds and bees. You didn't do it. You didn't even have social media. It wasn't even a

social media wasn't allowed until you're married. Yeah. When they went to a beach, when they went

anywhere, they had a term they called Nike, which meant all the boys had to look down because it was

and from their religious standpoint, it's the girls fault if they're looking provocative to

entice boys. That's doing a broad sweep. It is. Yeah. They go ahead and they're shining happy

people. Right. And so what happens is when you're in super close proximity, where family activity,

where you are under blankets, you're cuddling, you're doing all these things, and you're not exposed

to the sexuality that emerges as you start becoming teenagers and what is appropriate, not appropriate.

And the big thing that employs into that is the ultimate authority of age. And so as Josh is one of

the older males, everything trickles down. So everyone has to listen to and respect the authority

because they are the protectors. The males in this organization and this religion are the

ultimate protectors for everyone feeling safe. And whatever they say is gospel because they are

the voice of God inside that house. And so that's where that perfect storm starts happening

internally. And then when something does go sideways, forgiveness, forgiveness, forgiveness.

So it's a recipe for all takes is one little bad seed and the entire thing blows up because,

and my final point of this I apologize, is so we've seen so many cases where people do

a porn things like Corey Richards because she grew up with zero guardrails and so she's all over

the place I can do whatever I want. What's interesting here is there's very, very strict guardrails.

There's guardrails for their religious behavior like this. But unfortunately,

what they're doing to eat what the what Josh and his brothers accuse of doing to the girls inside

this house and others didn't really fall within that guardrails, falls within legal guardrails.

Legal guardrails are way out here, but the church guardrails in their household guardrails are

here. So it was all nebulous. So it got forgiven in here and never reached out here because we don't

report. We keep thing hushed there. They are conflict of voters to the nth degree and what happened?

How do you avoid conflict? We don't share. We forgive. There you go.

Yeah. And I want to get into some of that. The more the legal ends of it in our next segment,

when we talk a little bit more about the the religion itself because there's it just doesn't

exist. I was I was I was I was pouring out everything. I was consuming. I fell asleep. I've

watched it before. I watched it when it came out a couple years ago. Shiny happy people,

which is on Amazon. Highly recommend if you want to get a good education or a crash course on this.

Makes for good TV. I fell asleep watching to it last night and I had nightmares of the doggers.

I'm not even getting like I woke up and I had her voice in my head mama and she's talking like

this and everything. I'm like, Oh, my God. You know, I get giddy when I see craziness like this.

I'm like, Oh, man, this is a great show. Look at this crazy nutter. It's it's it's Kendra. Let's

talk about her. She she was 19. This is the wife of of Joseph. Yeah. She was busted over the on

Friday. And I think there's a lot of confusion here. So I want to I want to make this clear. Yeah,

these are two separate cases. There's Arkansas charges. There's Florida charges. Florida charges

are against. He looks like a fricking like like one of those dolls that you like stick your hand in

like the Charlie McCarthy kind of like he looks like he could be a Charlie McCarthy family of dolls.

We're looking at the image on YouTube right now. If you're in by the way, anyway,

there was two charges. Arkansas and Florida. The Arkansas charges are are different. Four

counts of second degree false imprisonment. Four counts of second degree endagering the welfare of

a child. Why are there Arkansas charges and Florida charges? Well, because he has to be

extraordinary back to Florida for his far more serious charges. Loot and lascivious

charges of I'm not going to say the words because I want YouTube to ban us.

For victims less than 12 and loot of the list of his behavior by a person 18 years

or older. So it's because he was 18 years or older and the allegations go back to when this

child was nine. Apparently took a blanket, put him over them and then used his hands and

holy shit. And then comes out that the child finally realizes, hey, I have this memory about

this happening. Talks to dad about it. Dad gets on the phone with with Joseph Dugger and then also

on a second call with a Tony Tom police officer here detective and then he gets Joseph to admit it

on the phone. Yeah, you got it. So Florida charges are that against him. The local ones,

what happens in Arkansas and I think in a lot of states, it automatically triggers a local

investigation to what's going on here in their home because they have children. So they went to

the compound, the one we've all seen on TV. And they discovered from again, this is this part I

can't confirm, but some reporting has been saying essentially and it makes sense with the charges

here of the false imprisonment, which basically comes down to the reversed locks allegedly on some

of the doors. So I'm meeting a door where the lock is on the outside, like into the hallway,

and then the person on the inside can't get out. Kind of you could create a false imprisonment

in a bedroom or something if you wanted to. That's the, that's what some are reporting. I can't

confirm it, but that does kind of sound it's a misdemeanor. It's a light charge, but it is what

they found in the house when they went to go do their welfare check that was triggered by the charges

in Florida. So she has that, she has another hearing coming up shortly.

They're misdemeanor charges, but when you have someone like this, she's 19, she was raised in

this sort of environment too by another family of the same faith that I put in air quotes.

And then you dig, then you become part of this family, I, I feel bad for, I mean, she's,

she's a grown-ass adult too, she's in her 20s. At some point, and this, maybe this is the window,

maybe this is the bottom of the barrel. Maybe this is the, the warning sign here for you,

the canary and the coal mine, but I think the canary just like swallowed half your family.

Wake up and get the hell out because my God, look at what this system is. Look at what the,

I, but she knows no different. And that's got to be such a difficult thing. I mean, you got Jill

who's written the book and has come out talking about her experiences. I guess start looking at

other folks who've left this, this system as a place, a starting point to try and figure out

a path out. I mean, what do you think here? Is this, is this something where, where somebody hits

this moment and they, they, they need to say, okay, no more? Yeah, it's really, I mean, I'm just

thinking about it as you just laid everything out, Tony, it is literally world shattering. Yeah.

Because from, from birth from your first memories, you have this image of your parents, of your

family, of this tight and it's safe group that you have a belief system that has brought great

security. You are love bombed, you are validation bombed and none of it, disingenuous either. And

that's what I was found really compelling about reading her book and understanding what's going

on here. There, there's no intent of taking advantage of people. This is really about trying to

overly protect your family and your kids, because in this religion, the kids are, are,

are God's quivers. I think it's what they call it. Yeah, the quiver from the moment. And then,

and then you also buy, then you start shitting out kids the second that you can. And then that's,

and then that anchors you into the family and you can't get out because you got, because this is

where she's at. She's already shut out for kids. And now, guess what? You're pretty much

indoctrinated into this family. And speaking out against that, how, how do you? Because that's your

entire image of yourself in your entire world. It's not like you knew another world. Like, like,

people that are indoctrinated in the cults later in life, they had a life before the cult. And so

that they can have a comparing contrast. There's no comparing contrast here. It's completely their

identity. But it's striking because there's so many striking things. I actually looked at the

Amish comparatively because Amish is another religious compartmentalized way of life thinking.

And the duggers have only 11%. I think this church in general has only 11% people that stay

in the church. As opposed, I got the numbers. I think the Amish have 98%, 98% stay in the Amish.

And so I researched, where are my numbers? Oh, 85% stay Amish. Here's why. Because the Amish,

it's an entire way of life and entire community. It's a job security. It's learning a trade.

It's responsibility. Now, granted, the claims of sex of, of, I can't say for YouTube, the claims

of abuse are equal across all these across the two religions because they keep them in

house. They keep them internal. And so they don't get reported. So it's very hard to get

accurate reporting. But because of the way that their church being the duggers interact and allow

people to interact with the regular world, there's a big, bigger draw, more temptation and more chaos

going on than the Amish community. It's interesting. It is. And we're going to get into

to the structure of the, I'm sorry, I'm jumping ahead on us. No, no, we're actually going to do that

right now. We're going to start jumping into the structure of this, of the IBLP. And really,

what has formed? What is the recipe? I mean, the duggers basically, they're their own mixing

bowl. They made their own recipe, their kids. And this is what we have. But what was the recipe?

What was the bigger mixing bowl that made the duggers? What created Jim Bob in his wife?

What was behind all that? That's what we're about to get into in our next segment. Be sure to

press subscribe so you don't miss it here in the feed and give us your thoughts on this piece

in the comments section on YouTube and sub-stack. We'd love to hear from you.

Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true

crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast.

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