Ben Lamm (on de-extinction)

0:00Welcome, welcome, welcome to our expert experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepherd. I'm joined by Lily Patman. Hi. Um, what a thrilling and exciting topic we have today. We have Ben Lamb, who is the co-founder and CEO of Colossal Bio Sciences. And what are they doing? Or they're bringing back and have the dire wolf. Yeah. You know, they're focused heavily on a woolly mammoth. Yes, they have woolly mouths. They've created woolly mice. Yeah. And the list goes on. Yeah. This is impossible. This is where we're at. Really wild episode. This is mind blowing. It feels sci-fi, but we're living it. Yes, it's present day sci-fi. Please enjoy Ben Lamb. We get support from Quince. You know what I think about a lot? The stuff in my closet, I actually wear. Like not the trendy pieces. The sweater that goes with everything or the pants that fit perfectly, the T- you kind of just throw on without even thinking. That's what Quince does. They make those pieces. That's right. They have 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at $60.

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2:08Quince just gets it. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers, or go to quince.com slash dax. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e.com slash dax. Yes we did. Right you guys. Clothful shirts. Oh, can you put your kids in your buddy who? Friends, grandparents. We love shirts. Anybody want to give it away too? Can you imagine if I still had grandparents, that would be lovely. I have one grandma. You do. How old is she? She's 96. Oh, what a trip.

3:09Yeah, her. Let's map her down. No, she's amazing. She's my Gigi. She'll help raise me. Oh, she's the best. Hold on, don't tell me. I know I have friends who call their grandma Gigi. I'm trying to think what ethnicity. Greece. No, it's just like weird Texan. It's a Texan. I mean, I don't know. I think I just couldn't say. So like my son can't say dad day yet. I mean, I'm doing kids. So he calls me Gaga. Oh, nice. Yeah, so I'm like maybe like like genetic did I like not be able to say grandmother. So I said Gigi, like I don't know. Gaga. They all have fun names. Our kids. Yeah, our kids call all of their grandparents Gaga. Oh, really? Yeah, it's universal. I went to the library a couple weeks ago with my wife into my two kids. And I was just taking the bathroom or just to hang out the library. Yeah, we do that in Texas. So I was like playing with these fake fish and it's like fake frying pan with him. He's two and a half. So he's at the stage where he's saying things that you're like, where did you learn this? Yeah, yeah. So you're like, rain over to this other mom in the library. And he's like, oh, Gaga.

4:11He like points back at me and I like, when did you learn that? Like that's a weird. That's an interesting funny interaction where he's like making fun of me to this other parents. Wow. He has already backed. He's already. Yeah, he's already embarrassed right now. Oh, God. He's like rolling his eyes. It was amazing. Yeah, creating new alliance. Yeah, but the other people have left. We got to practice early. But let's be honest, you just set it like you're always at library. You have a two and a half year old. The shit I was doing, I was at travel town every week. The miniature train music. Yeah, I haven't been back since they were six. Yeah, but you're just trying to pass the minutes. The library is a babysitter's friend. I would always circulate between the park and the library. For some reason, the minutes just would not pass. Yeah. I couldn't understand time. Yeah, sometimes like the bad time, like, when I was like, you've had bad time for two hours. Like he loves it. Just kidding. He's happy. Yeah, anything that they're happy doing, you'll do until they're no longer happy. How many do you have? Two. A two and a half and a eight month old.

5:12Oh, Lord. So I'm in it. And are you originally from Texas? I know you went to Texas Baylor. Born in Austin. One of the rare people that was actually born there. Yeah, okay. And did your parents move there? So my parents lived there when they had me. They got divorced when I was very young. Yes. And then I left Austin when I was five. Then later in my life, I made it back for a few years. And it was a Dallas. And I kind of bounced all over. I was raised by my mom and my grandparents. Yeah, I'm getting close to that. GG. Yeah, that's it. By GG, yeah. Yeah. By GG and my grandfather Poppy, who's no longer with us. You know, my brother just kind of reframed our childhood and the most beautiful way, which was he said, you know, thank God dad was an addict. Because otherwise, we would have never had every single week in with Papa and Grandma. And then the summers with Papa and Grandma. And they were who you'd want to be raised. Oh, yes. They had the time and the resources. I'm an only child. My wife is the youngest of five. Only girl, all the rest of boys. Oh, my God. And they're from Nebraska. So they're like Omaha, like hardcore. Five o'clock, they're like watching sports,

6:13drinking Budweiser and the whole nine. They're the best. Salt to the earth. It's so fun. So we did the same thing. They do retired. We just got them to move down to Dallas to be near us. So he's so nice. He's I grew up with my grandparents. They had a farm outside of Dallas. And so I'd go and like catch frogs. I did the whole super small town thing as a kid. I loved it. And I really wanted that for my kids. And so now that they're here, it was funny. I came back from a trip to Eastgope and my father-in-law was there with my son and my son kept saying hop, hop. And I was like, what are you talking about? And they'd caught a frog and put it like a little baby pulling, swam around. And I was like, I used to catch frogs with my grandma. It was cool. I feel very blessed about the childhood I had. I went our kids to be around their grandparents. Yeah. Yeah. Being around the multi-generational is really cool. A lot of wisdom to observe. Now really quick, did you listen to Dr. Death? No. Best podcast of all time. And it was about a Baylor educated surgeon who then practiced at Baylor.

7:14And he was completely incompetent. And he decapitated many people. Including one of his friends. He was a raging addict. I was in the business school. So I didn't learn. So that skill set was my story upon me. Yeah. But he was like your friend? Yeah, but it'd have been exciting if you knew who that guy was. I think at that time, he was the first doctor to ever be convicted and sent to prison for crimes committed in the operating room. Because he was drunk and stuck out. Let's hope my story is slightly different. And he'd be great. And probably Baylor's like, God, he wouldn't stop talking about that guy. Yeah. OK, so by the time you're a senior at Baylor, you already start accompanying. What was the first one? Simply interactive. Is it e-learning? E-learning, yeah. What does that even mean? My uncle was on the board of Baylor. He was amazing. And he's like, look, you go to school. And you pick a major that I agree with so that we believe you'll have a job. I don't think I ever really realized that was massively unemployable. OK. Over time, I think you probably realize that. He's like, you do these things. You take out loans, and then I'll pay for your college. Yeah. It's amazing, right? Like single parent.

8:15Like, it's an amazing gift that was given to me. And so I was a finance and accounting major because that was one of the check marks in my arrangement with my uncle. And then I had this great teacher, Dr. James Muschinsky, who just happened to be in Waco, Texas, all places, one of the world's top cognitive psychologists. Whoa. And he had built a lot of the fundamental models for instructional design to help people, like, how will people learn on computers? Just to, I guess, kind of date me in my time, this is when the internet was moving with this thing called Flash, Macromedia Flash. If you remember those days of the internet where everything was like dancing around, I learned that, just kind of self-taught myself that, and partnered with Dr. Muschinsky and started an e-learning company. Because at the time, all these corporations were trying to take training online. It was more e-reading than e-learning, and you were just flipping the pages. And we wanted to add games and unification. Yeah, multi-media. Yeah, and like, yeah, it was like, if you're doing something with industrial waste water disposal, that's boring. It sounds boring. We did it for gin and tech, a big biotech

9:15in Southeast San Francisco. So if you go take photos of Marin and you build this emotional connection to the content. A video game. Yeah, if you could play, if you could make it more interactive in emotional, it's like, hey, if you throw this water away the wrong way, it's going to ruin this park you play with your kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you could make it like hyper-localized and emotional, those kind of our thesis. And we grew the company. What year was that? That was 2004. 22 years ago. OK, so you exited that thing. And then I'm just going to speed through you created and sold five or so companies from gaming to... There's all kinds of... I made a lot of shitty games. We made one good game. OK, that's all it takes is one good heart. Yeah, it takes. Yeah, we made like 11 shitty games and then the last one was pretty good. Yeah. How do you end up meeting or approaching George Church? And then let's just talk about who George Church is. So George's amazing. He's somebody I'm shocked we haven't had. You should have it. You should have. Look, you could say, oh, you're biased. But he is the most interesting person in the world. He's six, seven.

10:16Oh, he is? Yeah, he's shooting. Massive beard. Looks like Santa Claus has narcolepsy. Oh. But he literally will talk about a super park. Where he'll fall asleep in his brain, like the random access memory, it's still working. And so he'll fall asleep and like totally like muck it out. Yeah. But then he'll like jump back in and be like, well, the solution's ex-wise and you're like, what just happened? It's incredible. And he thinks that it's like you're getting it to a save state like in a video game like you're sleeping. And then it comes back. He's awesome. So George has got a very prolific lab. He's seen as like the father of synthetic biology using directed evolution and genetic engineering and computational biology to engineer life in a direction that we want, right? Like that's what his lab is like prolific for, right? Did we say he's a professor at Harvard? Yeah, he's a professor at Harvard. Oh, okay, great. He's a geneticist. He's a molecular engineer. He's a chemist. If we have him on, I hope he falls asleep in the dark. Oh, he will. Oh, yeah. Well, you're a comfy guy. I'll try to keep it uncomfortable in the room.

11:17I'll have rubbed him the light slowly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But he was also somehow involved early with CRISPR now? Yeah, yeah. So he in Walter Isaacson's book, right? Yeah. Walter's amazing who wrote a book about Jennifer Doudna who's also equally amazing. George is actually a supporting character throughout it. And those CRISPR wars were so interesting between the Broad and Berkeley and nothing ever really seems to ever get saws. But George is actually one of the first people to use genetic and CRISPR specifically in mammals. So he was using in mammalian human cells and publishing him before anyone. What were the first things? I don't know what the first edits were that he did. But in this is what you'll love about George is that he truly believes in like open source software. He's like, how do we democratize these things? So that everyone's genome should be sequenced, not just the super rich. Or if you sequenced the genome for a woolly mammoth, he wants that accessible to anyone who would be studying anyone. So we very much saw like in our first meeting, which I'll get to, it was very clear how a line viewer like philosophically.

12:17I personally am biased, but I think the George should have gotten a lot more credit on some of the CRISPR Nobel Prize type work. But George is like, they're amazing. They really did the work. He is the most like, I just want to work with everybody. I just want to collaborate. I want to share information. We as humanity need to go faster. When I go faster by holding stuff in, I was running another company in mine. And we were at this moment where it looked like we were going to be bought. It was a defense company. A big defense contractor was going to buy us. That was right before COVID. Spoiler, they ended up not buying us. I'm sorry. Sounds like it would have been lucrative. I'm sorry. Well, I didn't have a game of bot like I was supposed to. It all worked out the way I was supposed to. So I reached out to George because really interested in synthetic biology. And my thesis when I called him was a mere example of the fact that instructions were a mere way to fill this out. I didn't need them all. That's in some sense. A really good pivot method. I don't really feel like that. I'm trying to figure out these observatory structures. And I feel that's very important in aura. I didn't have time to check out that. I didn't have time when I first joined the school I was doing that on this day lab. But I didn't know where I can fall short of record ratio. Because I felt I had the conflict in iedereen. I had to specialize in academia, but I didn't take on meantime acute

13:19involvement. And what would they go with that? Jedi industry training. That's why I think I started a deepanswer aspect. So I was really fasting with that, George is a genius. So he answered that question like seven seconds on the call. And he was like, yeah, this is where I think the opportunity was gonna say, oh, that's awesome, amazing. And then I'm like stupid level curious. And I'm like, what else you got? What is this going on in this weird lab of yours? And he started telling me about all these crazy things that was so technical, so over my head. And I just asked him, I was like, okay, with all this stuff, if you had one project with unlimited capital, what would you do? Cause you have a lot going on in the year lab. 100 postdocs, and all this crazy stuff. And it was like a mic drop moment. He's like, I would just work to bring back to Wolliamameth. I'd reintroduce it back into the Tundra and I'd use those technologies to help conservation and also apply them to human healthcare. I have to go to my next meeting now. I have to take a six minute nap and then go to my next meeting. Yeah, so the call was over and I was like, is that real? And what year is this 2019? Okay, this 2019, so by 2019, I had already read

14:19this compelling article in Nature, something that they had found some Wolliamameths in the permafrost in Siberia and that they were optimistic that there was sperm in the testicles that could be harvested and potentially bred with the Asian female elephant, which you can breed an African in an Asian female, but not an Asian male in an African female. But very few people know that what you just said. That's where I bowled out and I was very excited about this notion of impregnating an Asian female with the sperm of a found Wolliamameth in the permafrost. So what happened with that? I know about that thing. So George pre us having our first call and then I was in his lab a week later for a meeting. Before all of that, that was 2019. Since 2008, journalists and others had, there are these discoveries on fully mummified baby mammoths. There are all of these discoveries are happening as people are as clean as a permafrost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's really bad. That was a very few solar lining. Yes, it's the only one. So as that's happening, they just keep going back

15:21to George and saying, can you do it? And George is like a mathematical guy. He's like, well, there are no scientific gates. There's engineering challenges, but we kind of have everything we need to put this day that would make this happen, right? And so it was amazing. He blames journalists in the community for why he's working on the mammoth, but on the cover of his book, his only book, there's a mammoth. So I don't know if I totally buy that. So he was aware of that. They never actually did find sperm. They found a lot of tissues. And what happens is when they go into this tissue that starts to be like a mulsified and like bleakie and something like that, they think that there's viable cells there. There are no viable cells there. Really? Even when they have the full carcass. Even they have the full carcass. Because DNA degrades, it's such a crazy rate. Because it's in the nucleus of the cell. It's in the nucleus of the cell. And you'll get some mitochondrial DNA. You'll get pieces of the DNA from the cells, but you're not going to get a living cell. So if you wanted to impregnate through sperm, you're going to need a living sperm, which they did not have, or you're going to need, if you're going to clone it,

16:21a lot of times people are like, get on with it with you guys, right? Why are you guys saying so long? Because they just think that we could just clone a cell, right? But there are no living cells. We have about 104 mammachinums across 1.3 million years of genetic divergence. And they're all massively fragmented. They're all super broke in DNA pieces because they deteriorate over time. If you had designed percentages, each of these samples is what? Is it 2% of the DNA? So I think we have now assembled a fully complete mulliamamet genome at this point. By piecing together all these different samples over a 1.2 million year horizon. In aligning it to the Asian elephant, which is the closest genetic match, right? Right, 99.4. It's 99.6. It actually depends technically on how you measure it. It's 99.6. It can be as low as 99.2 because there's a mass variety. 99 plus. 99. Pretty good. Yeah, the Asian elephant. Most people think that mammoths were like these giant things, but they're actually woolly mammoths for a focus on are about the same size as Asian elephants, which are a little bit smaller

17:22than African elephants. You did have straight test elephants. You had some other stuff that was quite big. They're still very large. They're just not. Sometimes people think the size like building them. Yeah, I don't think I knew they were even as big as elephants. You thought they were smaller? Yeah. There's pygmy with me on the channel islands. Yeah, channel islands. Yeah. That's what I want replicated is the pygmy one so I can have one in my house. You're not alone. That request comes in more often than you take. I don't want that. Everybody wants to pick me. You guys, let's get to our mammoth, right? And so George is getting all of this data over the years. He'd got a $100,000 gift from Peter Teal who is not an investor in our business, but he'd given a $100,000 grant to the church lab to work on the mammoth. And George stretched that out over like six years, right? He's like spending $12,000 a year just keeping it alive. And this ended up being this project where people knew that George was working on it, but it wasn't like funded to the way of like one of his big sponsor. And it's not on the front burner for every. I'd say it's probably the front of his mind.

18:23Yeah, not allocation of lab time and resources. How old is he? 72. 72 now. I know, hurry. No, it's a bad thing. It's scary. He just had a birthday. He's about to take in his nail. He should just, you know, maybe like you would never find a man. So he's going to pass Gigi. Yeah. Yeah. He's going to pass that. Not to mention if anyone's going to get the epigenome anti-aging, that'll be the first to die love. He's definitely working on all of the anti-aging stuff. So he's great. So he had been working on it for a long time. That's not why I called him. But then I hung up the phone and I went through this like weird introspection. You've talked to other tech CEOs. If they say they didn't say this, they're just completely lying. Every tech CEO and founder I ever know has talked about, oh, I'm doing this one. We can impact one and change the world. But most companies, they fail. They get bought. They go public. I don't know how many of them really put a dent in the universe. Like Steve would always talk about it. And they put like really a change. I let the call really inspired. And I let the call thinking, is this an opportunity that's being presented to me by the universe?

19:25And if I don't take it, I can say, I'm building this company. It's going to create a lot of shareholder value. It's going to make money and it's going to provide jobs and services function. But I don't think I could ever hear myself say, and I think this is going to even impact on the world. Like I really felt this was like, hey, do you want to do this? This is your once in a lifetime swing. That's how I viewed it. Like look, I built and told six software companies. And I was like, if it all fails, I could just go do that. There's no risk. How's the call back? Go. So what's that call back the next day? I literally call it the next day. I stayed up all night. I was at my house in Austin. Stayed up all night. Couldn't figure out there was this Mayhem of Therulein. You could hear this different inflection in his voice. How passionate was about it. So I called him back the next night. And literally, I talked to him. I was like, I think I just need to come see you. Which if I were him, I'd be like, this guy's weird. I talked to him yesterday. So I went up there a week later, within a week I was in his lab, spent the whole day with him. We couldn't be more philosophically aligned. And it was funny.

20:26I was in his little office. He came in and he's like, standing up. I'm not going to sit down because I may fall asleep. And I was like, I didn't know some of these attributes about him at the time. So I was like, is this one of those power plays where it's like, I'm going to bail if I'm not interested. It's just easier for me to walk out. Like I didn't know what I was working with here. Sure. One of my lawyers at the time to see what are the requirements of doing a deal like this? And how do we work with Harvard? And then I brought a scientist and we went in, talked about it. We talked more philosophically, like how we think about things. I left that meeting 400 times more excited than going into it. And you must have told him, I have the capacity to bring to you quite a bit of funding. We actually ended the meeting with, I was like, I think there's no one less qualified than me to do this. So it makes perfect sense that I should go do this. Yeah, I guess that's what I'm asking. From his point of view, what are you offering that he's even interested? I said, look, I'm very good at building teams of people that are much smarter than me. Your science teams are much smarter than me. Number one, number two, if you have a plan that you believe we can get there

21:27and you think these are engineering challenges, I know how to solve engineering challenges. I know how to hire Bill at the job of engineering challenges. And I know how to raise capital towards it, right? Our first investor deck was quite shitty though. And so it wasn't a great deck. It's like we have no deal with Harvard. We have no IP. We have no scientists. This guy thinks he can bring back a mammoth and we had no monetization models at that time. Well, I was going to say you should put money in. You have to have some monetization scheme. Otherwise, what are we doing? Like how are we funding this? There's no money in bringing back the mammoth unless you have a theme for it. You should have sent it to DAX. For his death. Well, many celebrities are his first round investor. Okay, I'm going to say. Chris Hemsworth, Peter Jackson, Paris Hymne. Because they want the piggy pen. But they came to us, which is crazy. We've been very fortunate. In the early days, we went to investors, some of which I'd worked with in the past, some of which just had our long-term views. And in our original pitch was, hey, look, this is a systems model, no different than building software. It's a systems model, no different than building space hardware.

22:29If we are going to bring back a mammoth, we are going to engineer solutions and technologies along the way to build a synthetic biology platform that the same platform that can make you a mammoth can make you a bunch of other species. But it can also create disease-resistant cattle or drought-resistant plants. Or we will advance the technologies to do this, the number of edits that we have to make. We will advance all of the genome engineering and DNA synthesis tools to the point that it's now viable for humans. So if we are successful. It feels like the products are mammoth, but really the product is the tools that can get you the mammoth. It's the technology. It's that end-to-end developmental biology, genetic engineering, insider engineering, and computational biology stack. It is that infrastructure and then the innovations and inventions that come along that path. You know, I was thinking of the perfect parallel model is really in the automotive space, which is you race on Sunday. There's no reason to race. It's a huge money loss for all the manufacturers.

23:30But the tech discovered through racing funnels down into the production car and they always justify racing to stockholders like what we learn on Sunday, we put in the car on Monday. And that's kind of the model. Yeah, I didn't know that. We would talk to investors early on about like Apollo. It's like, hey, a lot of stuff came out of humanity going to the stars. We believe that here and we believe that the total dress pull market for programmable life being able to engineer life the way we want will have a massive ripple effect for the world and in agriculture, food security, environmental cleanup, human health care. And so that market and those opportunities actually are significantly larger than we initially anticipated. Okay, so walk me through from 2021 when you formed the company. What are the baby steps and accomplishments along the way kind of in order? Like what's the first thing you guys are successful at doing? Pre-launch the first thing that I think we were pretty successful on was we hired a chief animal officer. We were four days out from launching the company in a buddy of mine.

24:30I had bought one of my previous companies was like, hey, do you have anyone that's ever raised an elephant on your team? You know, you have these moments where people say something to you that you're like, wait, I call George, I was like, hey, we should hire someone that's like birthed an elephant and like knows like what they eat. What they might be so far. What they need to like not just survive but to thrive and George was like, oh, that's a really good idea. We should he's very thoughtful and he's very hilarious. So he's like, we should think about this. I was like, no, I got a guy. And so one of the first things we did was I think we've been smarter enough to know and listen to feedback. You'll see this theme, I think, through all of colossal. We've got a lot of feedback. And a lot of feedback has been really helpful. Like someone saying, do you have someone on the team that's ever raised an elephant? We're like, no, I gotta go. I gotta find that person. We got a great guy doing that now. But since the launch of the company, the most important thing is we have built, and you should come see the labs and you should bring the kids if you want. They're in Dallas. Yeah, we're in Dallas. So we have a lab in Melbourne, Australia, but the one in Dallas is cooler. But you got to both, you went. We have built a team of 260 scientists

25:32and collaboration was 17 of the top academic universities around the world. And we fund 80 postdocs in academia. And then we have about 75 conservation partners around the world. So I would say that before we get into scientific or any major milestones, the thing I'm biggest, it's the team, right? It's unfair, right? Like if you look at your alternative for genome engineers or synthetic biologists, it's you go into academia, which has a lot of brokenness to it right now, right? It's under fund days, highly competitive. You have to publish. It's papers not progress, right? You know, we have this argument a lot with people. It's like, why don't you publish papers more? And it's like, well, we'd have to do 10 papers for every press release we do. I'd have to hire 200 people just writing papers. And if I stack up a bunch of papers, that's not going to make a dodo, right? And so that's one. And then two, they can go into like bio-pharma or work on yeast models. If I'm like, hey, come with us. And I need you to go to the Arctic with me. And we're going to extract DNA, like Indiana Jones style. And then we're going to go to like the basement and like sub-Basement for Smithsonian and get ancient DNA.

26:35And then you're going to help build the AI models to do all the comparative genomics and work with mammoth cells. You're going to be the Jeff Goldblum in Jurassic Park. That's so much better. It is. That's so much better. It's great. And you can see the product together. And when we really start to talk to our recruits and scientists, we always talk about its value and creation for our shareholders and the impact from our conservation issues, but inspiration. And we're like, we want to do this in a way that gets people stoked about science again. Because I think we've lost that in America. And it's some big, patched mind now with my young kids. And so it gives us an unfair recruiting advantage for kids. Like I got Best Shapiro, who goes our chief science officer, who literally wrote a book saying, how to clone a mammoth and it ends with, you can't. And so I was like, she's perfect. Because she's thought about all this, right? And so when I sat down with Best, she's like, you read my book. I was like, no, but I know how it ends. So we're good. And I was like, you cannot clone a mammoth, but you can engineer one from scratch. Quickly, why did she say you can't clone one? Well, because there are no living cells, right?

27:36You can't just do an exact duplicate of what exists. And even theoretically, there's no mammoth that's been frozen perfectly. Perfect. In Jurassic Park, they use the McGuffin, the device of the mosquito frozen in amber who has sucked the blood from a dinosaur. And by the way, I don't want to break hearts, but there is most likely George and I don't like to say impossible. But most likely, there's no dinosaur DNA. Because it's about 65 million years old. There's been lots of very warm periods of time between now and then. In amber, forms is very porous. So it's not a great DNA store. Not that we've tried. It forms in hot, wet places. DNA like cold, dry places, right? And so that's the best preservation. So if something could like die in like the perfect cave, that's what's best for us. OK, OK. So you've got the team. That's the first thing you're happy about now. What are the incremental? Big milestones are from an editing perspective. We're now doing about 300 edits at a time all over the genome. Just put that in perspective. The two most genetically modified multi cellular organisms

28:37in the world, like animals, are woolly mice, which are objectively the cutest mice in the planet. If you haven't seen them. We look like little hamsters, Monica. They have kind of the woolly mammoth hair, but they're on a mic. You would like it. Yeah, we like mouse mice here. We like mouse not mice. Mice means infestation. Mice is a friend. Yeah, but the mouse are great. And so we identified the core colors, the hair texture, the length, the density. And it was about eight genes that we put all into a mouse. There's about 200 million years of genetic divergence between a mouse and an elephant. We have a huge animal welfare team. We spend a lot of time with American, Canadian, society, and others. And so we're not going to go take doing anything super weird. So we're not going to take a elephant gene and stick it into a mouse because we know it's probably not compatible with life because there's two inch genetic divergence. This was so amazing about the woolly mouse project besides their objective cuteness is that we did it all in 30 days. So we took our mammoth edits, right, which we're editing into an Asian elephant cell because it's the genetic donor that we work with. And sure, I'll talk about the process at some point.

29:38We took those edits found the functional equivalents in mice, we're putting mice edits into mice that are the equivalent of the mammoth edits in elephants. I was going to say, is this where now AI has very helpful and missed? And we had to build all this for spoke at the time, like open AI and cloud were like great at like helping kids cheat on term papers. Incessial state reconstruction models was not on the menu. And so we had a bill as comparative workflows and compared to genomics models. And so we took that, made the prediction, made the edits 30 days later, the mice were born and 100% they were healthy. 100% had exactly the phenotype or physical attribute that was expressed from the genes, meaning that it looked exactly as we predicted. And it worked within 30, like we didn't have to lots of trials and errors. Yeah, and not to get bogged down in biology, but yeah, you can be genotypically something and then phenotypically something else. So there are steps between what the recipe says and what comes out of like when it gets expressed. Yeah, it's now interacting with the epigenome and all these other things that it could not produce

30:40the phenotype you were looking for. 100%. You can only get half excited when you have the genotype figured out. And know exactly. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare, we are supported by all state. Checking all state first could save you hundreds on car insurance, not checking your teeth before walking into a meeting. You smiled at six people in the hallway, confidently, full teeth. You felt great about it until you caught your reflection and realized you'd been carrying a piece of spinach like an accessory sense lunch. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check all state first for an auto quote. You could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with all state. Potential savings vary subject to terms conditions and availability all state North American insurance company and affiliates North Brook Illinois. You have to do the protein modeling. To figure out what the protein is. Most people when they think of DNA, they think of that twisted ladder, which is great.

31:41Right? Like the dress supported a great job for us. People understand these things. The double helix. The double helix, right? But people will like, oh, that's what it looks like. So take that double helix and then just compress it with like the force of God down in this crazy ball. And then you have proteins that come off. It's very complicated. The folding of it and where you actually have connection points. All of those things matter in epigenetic expression. There's a project we haven't announced yet. And I was walking one of our government friends through it. And I was showing them the progress on this thing. And I was showing them the edits. And they were like, oh, that's great. You're saying it's like, yeah, but let me show you what we actually had to do. And then there was like down to the organic chemistry level. Like this is the compound that we had to figure out how to produce. We had to then go do an analysis on all these other species to figure out how they produce those. What are the common genes? How can those be activated? And then how do we model that, engineer that, including engineering the binding sites and the activation to get the expression? Yeah. Jesus.

32:41Like people will sometimes be like, can't they? You're just taking like a mammoth gene. You found the mammoth gene. Like, oh, that's a mammoth gene. You just stick it in. Right. Control C, control V. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Are we cutting and copying? And again, back to the AI for you to have compared all the other animals 50 plus years. Right. Yeah, for humans to go through. Are you even look at the speed that they map the first human genome? And that was like a 25 year project. Yeah. The audience of dollars. You've mapped this woolly mammoth in a few years with shitty, with very shitty broken DNA. Not like taking hours like fresh out the kitchen, right? And then we have multiple species going on. And then we have a lot of research species on. So there's a pun that we are constantly mapping. Okay, so let's talk about the dire wolf. We had the mice. I was sitting, getting interviewed at South by people who are losing their mind on it. The mice run inside and out live. The mice were on. The mice were on. John, so they were everywhere. I wish you brought one. No, sorry. They're in a pretty controlled, like these little good luck finding. Yeah, yeah. Do you know about these geolocators?

33:43So it was just telling me about this, that there's these contests. They show people like a five second snippet of a live feed cam from somewhere. And these geolocators will figure out. It's insane. I'm not going to challenge them. We are taking very thoughtful measures to the point of like planting non-indigenous trees. Floor up. Yeah. I've been pretty thoughtful about it. No one will find our stuff. There's red herrings everywhere. Yeah. Okay. But I'm sitting there and everyone's losing their mind. And I'm like, well, the dire wolf project's going to be interesting. Because we had this moment, we had dire wolves. We had the first most genetically modified multicellular origin in the world is the dire wolf, which 20 edits. So we're sitting there like, we thought people were going to be excited about the woolly mouse. Yeah. The dire wolf. I remember being on South by being interviewed kind of zoning out for a second saying, what is going to happen in three weeks when we announced this? Yeah. And that fear was massively realized three weeks later. There was just three weeks later you announced the dire wolf. Yeah. So tell Monica about the dire wolf. Yeah, other than what I know from Game of Thrones.

34:45Wow, that's what everyone. Yeah. So we recognize that. So we have this multi-dimensional model of how we think about why to bring back species. What is the indigenous people groups care about? Why did they go extinct? Can they survive today? What's their environmental impact? Can any of the technologies that are developed on the path to the extinction of that species help existing species, right? And the dire wolf checked pretty much that the dire wolf was done on our initial list, right? It was like mammoth dials, a tessinan tiger. And that's why the hymns were. It's got involved because they heard they were working on the tessinan tiger. And for us, dire wolf just wasn't on the list. It was just wasn't a top thing because people had sampled Lebraya tarpids, got zero DNA due to heat and acidification. So nothing they could find. We started this process. We started having conversations with indigenous people groups here in the US, a few others. And we were with Chairman Fox of MHA Nation up in North Dakota. And he told us this whole story. We were on his land and they're walking us through everything. Told us the story about the great wolf. And he's like, you know, they were dire wolves. And like you said, with high conviction, I was like, really? And so we started talking all about it.

35:46Yeah, we as tribes always think that our ancestors communed with the dire wolf. And it was this big white wolf. And I was like, maybe we should bring back the dire wolf. They died off like 10,000 years ago. 10 to 12,000 years ago. Yeah, yeah. And they're just much bigger than a wolf at what we got. Six feet knows the tail and 150 pounds. So fucking big. Yeah. So about 30% bigger than a normal wolf. Okay. And we knew all of what Dax had from the fossil record. What we didn't know is there are certain things like there were specific gene variants that we could tell that made them white. So we had two dire wolf samples that produced viable DNA, a tooth that was about 13,000 years old, 12,000 years old, and then a skull that was 73,000 years old. And just an earbone in the skull that's 72,000 years old. Yeah. It's 60,000 years of genetic data. I mean, think about that. Wow. Yeah. There's more genetic divergence between those two samples than our most recent sample in wolves today. Yeah. Also, they're fecundity rate and how long they live, the amount of generations within that 60,000 would be the equivalent of probably 300,000

36:50human years of evolution. We have so much data from that. That's insane. Okay. So we took that data and we mapped it at the time. People believe that dire wolves were closer related to jackals because it's game of threads we wanted to study. And they only got about a fraction of the DNA. The fragments that they got aligned mostly to jackal because we had about 500 times more DNA than anyone ever seen on our wolves. We actually found like, oh, they actually mapped closer to wolves very well specifically, which is what you would think. There were things we didn't know. Like one thing we didn't know is we knew the fur was white. We knew the specific genes, but we didn't know exactly what the texture was going to be like. They had this like main to them, which I know sounds crazy. Take like a lion and then take like a rodigian ridgeback dog and it's somewhere in between. Or Charles even have kind of a bit of a main. It's crazy. At the end of the day, we took a 73,000 year old skull and a 12,000 year old tooth made puppies. And before we announced them to the world, Romulus and Remus. Robus and Remus were the first two. Well, smaller. They, oh, they look like little peyendas.

37:51They were small, but they were pretty big at the time. At six months old, they were already 80 pounds. Yeah. Oh, my God. The photos I've seen are from when you allowed time to look at them. I didn't see that main. Has that main come in? It's Kevin Moore, yeah. Oh, wow. Are there more recent photos? Yeah, we put them out online. But you do. Is this how old are they? We showed them to the world when they were about seven months old. And the little girl was two months old, so we couldn't see her. She's callisi. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Which by the way, we got a lot of feedback where they were like, well, you know, callisi was not was a Targaryen, not half-star. True. And I was like, no, we are not that dumb. We do understand that. But we were trying to be like, it sounds cooler than Ned Stark for a girl. Even though it could have been Arya. Ooh, that would have been nice. Yes, we got. All right. We already thought. We already thought that. No, but our thought process was, we actually had a thought process. Our thought process was on this was that, hey, we already have dire wolves. So the Stark lovers will already be in this.

38:52Let's give something for the Targaryen. I'm sure, so we were trying to be thoughtful about this. You might need to do dragons for them. So Peter Jackson is one of our investors. This is a crazy stat. This is actually one of the things that most proud of us, company. 30% of our investors come to us from their kids. Oh, I bet. So they're kids, see it? Their kids get excited about their talisman, right? And they reach out to us. So Peter reached out to us. And basically, my first call with Peter and his partner, Fran, he basically cussed me out because I was not working on the Moa, which he, as a Kiwi, felt very strongly that I was not working on the Moa. 12-foot-toil bird. Yeah. No wings. I'd say no wings, not like little stub or flightless no wings. The feathers are almost like hair like. When you're thinking of the ethics of this, we know for certain that humans caused the extinction of the megafauna. Yes. Like they were thriving in the America's. The homo sapiens arrived. There is a inverse relationship you can track. Pretty much one-to-one.

39:52Yes. And same with the arrival of people in Australia, they killed off all this megafauna. We killed off the giant sloth here. So humans got rid of all these animals that we don't know. Maybe they would have made it, maybe they wouldn't have, but certainly we caused the extinction of so many of these things. So many of these things. And then recent extinction is like with the Tasmanian tiger and thylacine, we, the Australian government, I don't want to say we, because people like wait, Klaus will kill off the silo, see the rate of that. The Australian government actually put a bounty on the head of killing Tasmanian tigers. So they were paying people to eradicate this piece. There's like the buffalo here. Get them out of the way for the railroad. Why? They were probably eating something. No, they believed that they were killing sheep and eating sheep. Okay. There's no data. Go talk to all of the Tasmanian tiger experts. There's no data they ever did that. What was happening is they were stealing each other's sheep and then blaming it on the Tasmanian tigers, right? Also, they had now had canines probably involved. Yeah, the dingos and other stuff that came in, right? And so you have this movement across the world.

40:53And so as Klausel has grown in our technology capabilities, as well as finining the financial support from our investors, we've broadened the horizons now working on the Tasmanian tiger, the Moa, thanks to Peter Jackson and a handful of other species. But when I was with Peter going back to the Darwals, when I was with Peter in his house in in Auckland, I was like, hey, I want to show you something. I plugged in the computer to his little HDMI thing and showed him the first how it's not a highly produced clip, right? It's kind of just like with an iPhone. The first what? It was the first how from the Darwals. Oh, when they were puppies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We played it for him and he's like, this is what you need to lead with. He's like, oh, we're going to need this big production. He's like, no, no, this is what you show. Trust me. I think it's for I trust Peter Jackson. He's going to be story telling. Yeah, he's moderately going to this. And then he's like, have you shown this to George R Martin? So I said earlier, I guess slightly incorrect. The only person we did pursue in the celebrity world was we reached out directly to George R Martin because Peter introduced us and Peter told them, he's like, you just need to get on zoom with this guy.

41:53So he got on the zoom. I shared my screen. George R Martin cried on the phone. He's like, is that what I think it is? I was like, yes, very few people have seen them. I was like, you made these popular for the world. And I was like, do you want to, and he's like, can I invest? I'm going to be of all his like, sure, sure. I was like, we'd like for you to come see them at an undisclosed location. Yeah. So he and his wife, so many world, they flew out, they flew out and they held them when they were babies. And he was like, he told me like one of the best days of his life. Wow. We have more Darwals puppies that we've talked about that will be born in the near future. We are working on the next litter. And he texted me. He's like, are they born yet? Can I come see them? So I do need to point out at this point that you have critics and you have a lot of people saying, you know, these aren't dire wolves. And best Shapiro, your head scientist, has stated pretty clearly, these are gray wolves with 20 edits. Right. Right. Yeah. It's a bit semantical. We are very clear on this. And sometimes this frustrates our critics, just being transparent about it. We believe in freedom of speech and choice, right?

42:54And so like if you want to say our mammoth is a woolly mammoth, great. And if you want to say our mammoth is a cold tolerant, Asian elephant with 200 edits across 1.4 million years of genetic divergence of alleles that are then activated epigenetically to produce the phenotypes that are cold tolerant to serve an ecological function that once mammoths and mastons will do, you can say that too. But don't you think so one of the definitions of a species, one of the 36? Oh, there's a lot. OK. One of the 30s, I didn't know there were 36, but one of them is that they can produce a fertile offspring, which is why a, I don't know, a mule, whatever you cross, don't be in a horse. It's not its own species because you can't have its own children. So don't you think the debate ends when you create the woolly mammoth and it then starts having fertile offspring? Now it is its own species. No, I don't. Because if you go talk to a paleontologist that will not agree with that definition of those species, the problem is we as humans like to put things in boxes.

43:54Yes. We're very good at boxes. We're categorical. We love it. We like this box and this box and this box. And you're like, that isn't fit in a box. I don't understand what to do. We're very robotic in our models, right? And so I don't think that that debate will go away. But for me, I think that's OK. So for us, a gray wolf is just a genetically modified dire wolf. It just is. Like there's over 3 million edits between you and me and you and me. Yeah. Like we're different by 3 million edits. For us going from a software lens, we're going to make the edits that matter that we know drove the core phenotypes. So if you look at our 104 mammoth genomes, I can't clone them because I don't have those living cells. But magically, if I could clone them, which one do I clone, which one's the mammoth? I have those 104 over 1.3 million years. Here's what I can tell you. We were all born reasonably around the same time, right? And there's 3 million as well. When you go over 1.3 million years, there's a lot of difference. But they all shared those core phenotypic expressions that gave them these like shadowy coats, fat deposits, curved tuss. You have 10 centimeters of fat on them.

44:55And what's interesting though is that it's really not the sum of the parts that make something the way we acknowledge you or you or you or you. It really is the unique parts. It's not sum of parts. You show a kid, a polar bear and a brown bear. You see, are they bears? A child's going to be like, yes, they're the same. They're going to say, no. But polar bears and brown bears can intermix and produce viable offspring. By that definition, they should be the same species. But one is a giant carnivore. One is an omnivore. One's art to adopt it in white. They're just different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, great. I do have one more fun thing, I always say. The people that want to argue on, is it a mammoth? I'm like, what do you tell your kids Jurassic Park's about? Is Jurassic Park a movie about dinosaurs? Yeah. Are they, are they, are they genetically modified frogbirds? Which is in the movie, how the, it's how they're made. Yeah, yeah. How big are Romulus and Remus now? Romulus right now is like 140. Remus is like, I think 137, 138. And sorry, how old are they now?

45:56When did that happen? I guess they're two years old. Okay, two years old. 14 and dog years old. Yeah, they're up. Sorry, they're about to be two. They're going to be two November terrible dad. I don't know if you know that. It's hard to keep it on. I have biological human children. Yeah, they're going to have to take precedence. Good, because we found out one of the red flags of a sociopath is if you ask them their children's birthdays, they don't know. We interviewed a confirmed sociopath who's also a psychologist. Fascinate. She could detect when there's other sociopaths present by all these different things. And one of them is if you ask them when their child's birthday is, they won't know. Yeah, keep knowing it. Yeah. Okay, you have though declared that you're going to have a wooly mammoth calf by 2028. Yeah, oh, so we will not have a calf by 2028. That was our original target date. Okay. We actually just did a big story with time on this. We spent a ton of time with Time Magazine. And our scope has significantly grown. So we've gone from one mammoth, one cell line, about 65 edits to 14

47:01cell lines. And we've already done 130 edits today. So double what we anticipated, and that's because we had better access to data. We've also had two governments that have reached out to us saying, we do not want you to make a mammoth. We want you to make viable herds of mammoths to your interbreeding comment. That's what they want. Is it top secret with those countries? Top secret is a classification, right? And we do work with the government. It's not a classified thing, but these are government's choices of when they want to talk about their programs. Okay. And we have a larger partners in the program now. You can see where suspicion and scrutiny would arise when we don't know what countries are funding these things. Well, ours is, right? Yes. To our government, we're very transparent with our investors. We don't have any secret investors. We've had state governments in the United States invest in us. Uh-huh. We've had the federal government invest in us. We've had the UAE invest in us. Those are the only government entities. I can't imagine the UAE is a great place for a mammoth. The UAE is not one of our partners on the game.

48:02Okay. So you're no longer saying 2028, is there some time frame? Our goal is to have births and announce the births. I don't know if we will announce the births. Kind of how like the dire walls were a little bit older and they were multiple. I think that's a more likely threat. Yeah, this is similar to like, you don't want to tell you when you're pregnant. In case something happens. Yeah, the first act. So it's like, if you get these mammoths out in the whole world now, is it now they want updates and then they have like three extra trunks? We spend so much time in one of the things that I think we do really good job in our pipeline is we do genetic screening and computational analysis in full genome sequencing after every editing pass and embryo pass. So we don't take anything to even potential term that has an off target effect, meaning an unintended consequence in the genome or could have any effects that are negative for the animal welfare. So we have eye-cooked protocols. We work with USDA. One of the things that most people think about when they think about colossal, like, oh, those are the guys that are like doing mammoth stuff and diorables and dodoes, but they don't

49:04realize that like the lab work that we do is half of it, right? We consult indigenous people groups, private landowners, FDA, USDA, all regulatory bodies. The intelligence community here in the US, we spend a lot of time with a lot of these folks. Okay. So now let's get into some of the, I'm going to call them off label discoveries that you've massed along the way in pursuit of these. What's the term de-extinction? I think it's highly likely you're going to see more species. I think you're going to see more woolly mouse type moments and the near future around things that prove out phenotypes in model species, like mice are. And I think you're also going to see other extinct species, some of which we've mentioned. And then I think maybe you'll have more diorope-like moments of stuff we haven't told anybody. Yeah. We get a saber tooth. That's what you want. I'm trying to think what I want. Well, I want a lot of things. What is the wish list? I'll tell you how it compares to the general wish list. What's your... Astro-opithecine giganticus. So for the layman. So you call that gigantic epithecus?

50:05You will not get that from us because we have drawn a line in the same as colossal that we do not work in non-human primates or over. Right. So I was an anthropologist major. So of course, I want to see how big I'll throw a little bit of the same giganticus in real life. I would love to see that. Of all the hominids. I like killing. I would love to see that too. But what do you do with them? Exactly. We need to get out of it. So we spin out technologies and build hold companies and license out our technologies for human health care. But even at colossal, we do not do things with human health care because it's like the last thing you want to do. They're already doing stuff. There's already enough weird conspiracies. We don't want to push the bounds to the point there. So we just said, hey, when I do anything, non-human primates or anything humans. Yeah. That's probably... We get in the intertall question quite a bit. Yeah. But they're already here. They're with us. And we're here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I want to see the elephant bird, very badly. I do too. We're not working on it. Sabor to tiger, of course. Not working on it, but I'd like to see it. I don't know enough about it. Have you ever been to the LeBraya Tarpa?

51:06It's Oreo at the Natural History Museum and you see the skeleton of the giant swath? Now there is a pool there. No, there is a pool there. Or there is a pool there. Like 1,500 pounds to do an extinct species depending on level of engineering. You've got to have a viable genetic donor or something close enough genetically that you can get it from like Asian Alphan from Emma. We've got to have a weighted chest state it. We are now working on artificial wounds. We've got to broke the internet again this year when it showed off the artificial egg this year, which is like straight out of a movie. That's one of my three like offshoot things you've discovered on the way. But there are species like right now we have an academic partner that's got 30 X coverage. You need about a minimum of 10 X coverage. We have about 30 X coverage so well within the capabilities of three different lineages of giant sloth. So I would love to put giant sloth on there. I'd love to put a stellar sea cow on there. It's one of my favorites. A sea cow? Well, so you think of like a doogong or a manatee that's bigger than a whale. What? It's amazing. It's huge. So it's a mammal. Yeah. It's amazing. It was killed off to your point.

52:06Yeah. Good. It was killed off within like 30 years of its own right? We just can't gestate those things yet. So there's things that aren't on the list. You need a womb. You need another animal. Yeah. We're working on artificial wounds. We have three artificial wounds projects. We're not there yet. We're making progress. What's on your list? I need to like look up the list. I don't know enough. Like I didn't know about a sea cow. This just goes to show my bias for things that are huge because it's all the megafauna. That's what I'm most interested in. I love I love. Yeah, I want miniatures. Right. I want little things. Got a lot of pigmies we could work with again. I would love to pick me hippo would be so fun. This is like a pig, but it looks like a, but they're plucked bastards too. Those are a pot of mine. They're aggressive. Yeah. Wait, have the woolly mice made it? Yeah. Gin three. Oh my god. And so then what's the ethics around people having them? So we don't sell anything. We've been asked like this Smithsonian reached out to us and they're like mice don't live forever. We could tax the dormium and have them here. We've had museums in zoos call us asking us to have them. Yeah. It's just on our model.

53:06Are you watching monsters of God? Huh. You must. This is by Eric Good, the guy who made Tiger King and chimp crazy. Okay. And now it's about the illegal reptile trade. Yeah. But a lot of the things you're talking about are very present in that. Yeah. That's behind all. Yeah. We have Biowat. We spend a lot of time on that. We're trying to do this in a very collaborative communal way. Yeah. You're trying to build as much consensus as possible, probably knowing you will never have full consensus. You've got the guy from Columbia who's quite mad about a lot of the stuff. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk about some of the fun things that you've discovered along the way. And I know one of them's a company you spun off called Breaking. But tell me about X32. This is amazing. I'm going to go back to taking away the extinction in species preservation. And I'd like to talk about the species preservation part because no one talks about it as much as they should. That should be like what everyone's talking about because we're losing so many species. But the same platform that can do directed evolution and accelerated evolution through genome engineering can be applied in a lot of other categories.

54:07This incredible team at the Vee Institute discovered a microbe, or they thought it was a microbe. We'll get to that second. So, that's a very slow. That breaks the chemical bonds of plastics. And so, it doesn't make smaller plastics, right? A lot of these plastic degradation solutions that you see pop up in the news occasionally for a scientific paper. They either require preheating, pre-treatment and the chemicals a lot of times are worse than even plastic. They're actually a lot of times making microplastics. They're making smaller plastics, which is not what we want. Yeah. Stuff that'll penetrate your cell membrane. Yeah, exactly. We are adjusting like a credit card size of microplastics every week. Yeah. I don't believe that. Where did you get that? The interwebs. Yeah. You can factor. You guys do like, you should factor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's extreme. I hear that consistently. I know. There's a lot of moral panic about it all. And I think this, to me, reeks. That is the stat that's out there, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want to know where it originated. Yeah. I don't know that that's actually figure out a bull. I hope it's a fraction of that, but we know it's a fraction of it. We know for a fact that people are getting tested and it's showing up everywhere in the

55:11body and in embryos and in sexual organs. It's getting passed on. We know for a fact. It's in microplastics is in all three of us. Yeah, yeah. And everyone listening to that. I don't doubt that. Just to push back on the panic about it's like, hey, I don't know about how they came to that figure. Yeah. They are observed. We don't know that they're bad yet. They're starting to do tests. There are published peer reviewed tests where they do believe that they have higher issues of cancer rates and other things. So that is coming. And that is out there. There are some studies about it. Immediately can see the impossibility of figuring out, which is what is your control? Yeah, your control. We're all on planet earth eating plastic. So you're going to say what I'm going to compare this person's cancer rate to who's. There's no control. It's a really, really good point. It's like saying what is oxygen due to the human body? Yeah. Yeah. Different variables, right? I don't want plastics on earth regardless of what I'm saying. Let me be clear. I want them out of the ocean. I think that any conflict, disclosures need to happen on this. Very apparent that tax is very invested in plastic.

56:12Yeah, I got. Yeah. I own a petroleum refinement facility that's making polyurethene as we see. Yeah. So now that we have disclaimed our affiliates, but it looked plastic is a big issue, right? Yeah. So they discovered this thing in Crevel, scientists, Sukanya. And it just leaves the Maharang carbon and some biomass. Yeah, some biomass, right? And so they came to us. They didn't know what to do with it. We took it into our system. We have a very robust AI computational biology core to understand it. What we found is it's actually a concert of microbes making this enzyme. But when you modify the individual microbes, they can produce more or less of the enzyme, which can then break down different plastics. 20 months. It was much farther than that. We've now got it down to 20 months. But things that take never to 800 years, to 20 months, that's out. Now we are working on applications to broader use cases other than industrial wastewater and textiles in composting. You're focusing on textiles, right?

57:12So we're focusing on textiles, water treatment and composting are now things because you're like all foods and they'll have like wrapped lettuce. They can't just go throw that in the compost, right? And so they have to separate it. Or a lot of times a lot of food waste is being thrown because of plastic contamination. Not microplasticism because it's wrapped in plastic. Yeah. Which leads to methane and all these other things. So composting is now used case. We are looking, we're nothing yet to announce yet, but that team, that company is deeply looking into humans and how it could be helped. Really seeing the enzyme and the humans. I don't think the enzyme would work in the humans. I think you get quite sick from it. Okay. But some other. Yeah. That's the power of synthetic biology, right? It's like scientific discovery still takes hundreds of years. What do I do with it? We put it through a pipeline. We want to understand it and then we figure out how we added it and regulated it. So this does remind me and I listened to some great piece on it. I wish I could remember and credit them, but it was really about the issue of whether or not we could give patents to genomes, right?

58:13And it was driven by the Exxonvelde's oil spill. And there was an engineer and organism that they created to eat the oil. Yeah. What was that biological engineering versus what you're doing? Do you know that case? I don't know that case. I saw another case that was a naturally occurring enzyme that was discovered, that was being used for a river cleanup, different but similar. Yeah. And the current landscape of our regulatory framework with the USPTO, which we were very closely with, is around intentionally genetically modified organisms. Right. So you discover something in nature. In my view, and you sequence it, you should give that to the world. Totally agree. Some again, on the genome of a chimpanzee. Yeah. Or a human, the first people they had patented that. There were companies I tried to. I think originally they thought there was like a million genes and then they found other 25,000 genes like, fuck these companies on half. No, no, I can't do that, right? Yeah. So you had patents, genes. Now, if you go spend money and time and effort to understand if I take this microbe and

59:13I supercharge it, you can't take the microbe and patent it, but that supercharged microbe that you've invested time and used your technologies to make, that does not naturally occur in nature. You can patent or lease out the technology. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So that's a really cool thing. And then tell me about germ line editing. Okay. There's a general moratorium on it. Mortatorium meaning there's a pause right now. There's a global consistent, well, I would argue it's consistent. There is a public facing global moratorium saying there's a pause on germ line editing. Meaning that you will not do edits in a human that will be passed on into the general population pool, right? Is it this most prescient in the mosquito debate right now? So that gets into gene drives, which we'll talk about. But on germ line editing and humans, so when you make an edit, let's say that you have sickle cell anemia and we could make it edit that then gets passed on to your offspring so that your offspring doesn't have germ line. Now that's different than you doing IVF and having full genome sequencing with someone

1:00:16like ORCID or one of these other companies to test and then you choose not to choose an embryo that has that means patient. It's not you're moving. Right. So we went through IVF, we used ORCID. There were certain things that I had that we didn't want to pass on germ line editing when you edit it and it gets passed on to the broader pool. And I think the fear of that is like super intelligent, very eugenic. You're gonna. Yeah. Yeah. I only want my kids to be this tall. So there is a, I still think that there is a category that everyone can agree on that if we can eradicate sickle cell, tastes, acts, exactly. If we can eradicate these specific diseases from the gene pool, all of humanity benefits. Yeah. And I think we'll get there. I think we as humanity will get there. The problem is is that you have these rogue nation states like China where they're like we made edits to make these kids immune to HIV. We didn't tell anybody. We as China, not us or America. And then you know like they do in China if they don't like things they locked them up. But it only was like locked up for like a handful of months.

1:01:16So doesn't feel like everyone was that really mad at them for doing it. But the technologies are here. The technologies exist today. The work that Colossal is doing is significantly harder than solving those problems. Well, if I could get on my soapbox for a second, I was just having a conversation with a couple that did very extensive embryo selection. And I said, my issue with it is simply if you were evaluating me as an embryo, you would have seen like dyslexic, ADHD, addicts, name the shit. Well, some of those are environmental. Let's say you find the gene for the ADHD or you find the genes for this. There are other people that didn't have those things. There are a lot of people that you would have bet on a different embryo. And like I turn up pretty good. We know all of the downside of a lot of these things, but we've really yet to understand well, what is the huge upside? The dyslexia thing growing up, I always learned your twice is likely to be incarcerated. Well, then as I got older, I learned your four times is likely to be a CEO. So how do we? Yeah, like I'm just like to get out of ADD. There you go. And you got all kinds of money and you're changing the world.

1:02:17But someone might have selected. Yeah. I just don't think we know actually maybe two personal, but it's true. I want to hear. Oh, with our kids, we did because you can do the testing and the morphological. We actually had a miscarriage. My wife just didn't want to go through it again. Yeah. I didn't want to go through it. Didn't want her to go through it. So we went through IVF, went through the process of selecting embryos. There's certain morphological grading and testing. And there's only so much the IVF clinical do. Yeah. But then you can go to this next step. We hired a company and used the service to go to the gold orchid, full disclosure. I ended up investing in the company only because I was so happy. Yeah. Yeah. George Church was involved. So we recommended them. And they do full genome testing. To your point, I have a mutation on my Titan gene. I got really sick to drink COVID because of. So I wanted to screen for that because it is a mutation that creates a chrunkated protein for your heart. So I did not want to pass that on. So I wanted to make that decision, right? My wife and I agreed on that. Secondly though, to your point, they do a very good job because it's a bell curve. And they give you this distributed score. There are some things like schizophrenia and others that we know you have a low disposition

1:03:18to it. And so you're probably not going to be schizophrenic. You have high creativity markers. Like they've seen that in popular. Well, it's a dopamine dysregulation disorder. Yeah. Well, we did is that, hey, this is all really interesting. We are going to make a first round of selections based on if it's compatible with life A and then B, if it doesn't have this particular mutation that we don't want to pass on. And then C, we're going to look at the data and we looked at things like Alzheimer runs on my wife's home. So we looked at that one, right? And we said, that's a pretty big way. So we waited that in our score and how we came with it. But some of the other ones that have high environmental factors, we didn't factor those in. Now, once again, you get the burden of knowledge, right? Right. Yeah. We get all these knowledge. I will make the argument that by the time my kids are old enough to have a disposition to have Alzheimer's more than likely that will be cured. We made some decisions from there. But to your point, if we were done all that, we would have had it in the kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was no like perfect model out there. So it is an interesting question, as it relates to your mind editing, but I think that over

1:04:22time, the world will agree that there are certain things that we should use our powers for good to eradicate that all, you know, ethnicities, all genders and all religious affiliations would agree on. I think there are some of those. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would hope so. As we said, so we'll say. I don't know why anyone would be against being able to edit out sickle so. Yes. I think that's coming. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. Okay, tell me then about gene drives. So I'm very pro gene drives, but I'm only for them for invasive species. So the most famous example is using a genetically modified insect. They also were perverted rates, which we'll get into using a genetically modified insect to then put a gene that then gets distributed through the population for population suppression and control.

1:05:22The mosquitoes, the big. The mosquito example was there's this thesis of like in Africa, you get malaria, get disease rates, that's bad. Everyone agrees that's bad. With that said, they didn't actually use a gene drive. They actually used a form of kind of got marketed as a gene. I was more irradiated mosquitoes that lowered the populations. But the problem is in Africa, mosquitoes are a part of the food web. They are not an invasive species. I totally agree that there's badness that comes from the spreading of disease and mosquitoes are a major spreader of disease. In other cases where you have invasive species where they are eradicating other species and having an effect on the landscape or on food production, that their removal only benefits the land. I'm pro that. But how do we know like the other one that said the extinct one was eating all the sheep, they would say that was an invasive species. Well, no, it was indigenous to Tasmania. This is more like when you bring in the brown trout to this stream and the displaces all other things. So you have Asian carp in the Great Lakes and it's destroying the Great Lakes ecosystem.

1:06:24The US government has a $3 billion environmental remediation program that will not kill them. We're dealing with invasive species right now. It takes pretty bad. There's this thing that came in from Panama because global warming has gotten hotter. And then also we as humans are just translocating more and more and more. So we have actually brought in a screw worm, which is this fly that lays larva that literally screws down it spreads disease, kills, cattles. It multiplies like crazy and hot weather. Texas is like 104 when I was there the other day. Not great. New Zealand, it's either the possum. Yeah, it's much of awesome. They're not supposed to be there. They come over on ships and cargo holds. They get into the population or someone brings them as a pet and like everywhere in New Zealand, it's like if you see one call, they got to get rid of these fuckers. They think for cats in Australia, I'm not anti cats. I have two dogs. I'm fine. Okay. That's what Monica could take. I'm going to hit on this. Yeah. Sort of anti cats, but in Australia, people are poisoning cats because the largest mammalian extinction rates that are occurring in the world are in Australia of unique species of

1:07:27marsupials because of cats. Cats are great predators. No one followed Bob Barker and like spade Newtom. They just released them out there. Yeah. So people are actually shooting and that's an animal welfare disaster. And also we have this history of it too. You want to go just like the snakes got into Ireland. So then they bring in Mungus, still the snake. Now the Mungus is surprised. Like, yeah, yeah. So the idea with gene drives is you can introduce a gene. It's not going to jump species. We spend a lot of time with this administration educating them on genetic engineering and showing that like with your choice on the screw or you have three choices. You can release tons of irradiated flies that will slow the population and they're spending a billion five right now in Texas of doing that. Not efficient. Not going to solve the problem. We'll slow it and then they're going to have to do it again and again. Like this is a repeat thing forever. It's like the one drug. Yeah. Or you can inoculate the cows. Nobody wants to do that. Right. You can accept higher beef prices because you're going to have less cows. Start to import beef which they're doing and you're seeing the feedback on that.

1:08:28Or you can use a gene drive that eradicates just the species from where it's not supposed to be. And it's eight months to eradicate species versus 12 years. Wow. Eight months. Are there any pilot programs where this is happening? ours. Okay. And it's going to be for this warm. We're trying. We have gotten approval from different groups than the intelligence community and in the defense. Okay. Are mosquitoes part of the food web here? Yeah. I hate them so much. Old bats are chowin down on spiders or ain't. They're absolutely key to most food webs except in certain island states like Hawaii. Avian malaria is being spread by mosquitoes and killing a lot of these amazing like the Hawaiian honey cure a lot of these amazing birds. So you could eradicate. Albatross. You could eradicate them on certain islands. So if you do everything right from a conservation perspective and you don't eradicate invasive species, you're like we're not going to drill over here. We're not going to produce over here. You're going to protect all these lands or protect all these species.

1:09:31When you don't know what an invasive species, you don't even make a dent in environmental remuneration. Yeah. Like invasive species are the biggest threat to disease spread, environmental collapse and environmental remediation efforts. And again, we're responsible for bringing these species. Yeah. We move all this stuff around. We've caused it. Or changed the climate for them. Okay. Let's talk about artificial eggs, the synthetic womb and just synthetic biology in general. Like what's happening there? We have three artificial womb projects. We have a marsupial roller culture system. So all of the pursuant of these is how do we grow animals fully outside of needing a serigate? So we have that. We also have a second project, which is a placental interface, which sounds weird. We're making uterine walls the way it works is the embryo hatches. And then we actually have a placenta that invades into the uterine wall. It's pretty amazing. It's like right out of a sci-fi movie. That's how biology works. So we're making a synthetic uterine wall so that we can make a synthetic uterine sack

1:10:33that you can grow them to turn in. And we've had successful invasions. So you track these on, there's this thing called the Carnegie sale of development. And we've tracked them through it and we're pretty close on both those. And then we had a third one for the avian because there's no bird big enough that can grow. Definitely an elephant bird, but definitely a South Island giant moa. Right. So what we did, because we're working with the Naitahoo people working with Peter Jackson and the Maori, the exercise eight times bigger than that of an e-move. So you're going to have to birth it through an e-move, then transfer it into an artificial egg. Yeah. So we birthed the world's first birds fully exudero using this repeat artificial egg process. It looks like a more fun version of it. Wow. What is the actual synthetic, like what is the sale made of? Is it made of carbon? Yeah. So we take the cells from the chickens and we put them into this matrix. It's like a little infrastructure that I grow around. And then we actually had to develop a polymer. It just was like plastic when you watch the video where it allows the right level of permeability of oxygen and whatnot.

1:11:33And so people had tried to grow chickens and other birds outside of an egg or womb. And they would plug in oxygen. They do all these sets that were developmentally lethal, right? The eggs actually pours, eggs actually breathe. How do you recreate that? But also then if you're going to recreate it, how do you reengineer it so you can do more? So artificial eggs, you can hook up to microscopes. We actually created a visible and non-visible spectrum lighting system. So you can put it in a cradle and truly understand it and have different lights. But if you point directional, even these high frequency lights into the developing embryo, I can destroy the embryo. So we actually had to create channels and refractive mirrors so that you dissipate the light. Oh my God. So a lot went into it. And then eggs actually based on the shape and the pressure and gravity help form the developing chicken. So the actual cells are derived from chickens? Yes. And across all, even if you were doing like a mammal womb. Oh, no, no, no, those are just for that. How do you get the mammal cells?

1:12:34So the mammal cells are whoever the genetic donor is. It's the fat-tailed done art for the phylasine. It's a respective genetic donor. It's the gray wool for the diar wolf. It's the rone antelope for the blue buck. Biggie Sherry don't say anything that we haven't said. Yeah, no, you said blue buck. Because these are the closest matches. Yeah, they're the closest genetic. Wow. Because we're not just doing somatic saline co-transfer for serice the cloning step. We're doing interspecies. Yeah. Somatic saline co-transfer. Which is crazy. You have mitochondrial rejection. There's a lot of things that go into the engineering of this. Well, also, I just know this from humans, right? That 50% of all pregnancy self-terminate. Yeah. Because 50% of the time during meiosis, there's like disjunction. Yeah. There's so many errors that happen that the body's great at detecting, screening, and then aborting. Exactly. And so if our own average is 50% and we're pretty good at it. Yeah, we've been evolving for this long. Clothing efficiencies are somewhere between two and four percent. We bought a company called Viagin last year that most famously cloned a bunch of celebrity

1:13:37dogs, including Tom Brady's dog, which like broke the internet. Silling Dion was the... Yeah, Barbara's right. Yeah, Barbara's right. I'm sorry, Barbara's right. Yeah, sorry. That was a big deal. She did that before. We acquired them. They do horses, cats, and dogs. Did they do this? I saw a great 60 minutes on the world's most famous polo player. I think he's from Argentina. Yeah, they did their horses too. And he's got eight of the same horses, Monica. The horse he won the most on. They just made eight of. That is their main... Yeah. We bought them because there's another like 18 species that have ever been cloned. They're at 78%. We'd say that. Yeah, versus 2%. Yeah. That's one of the reasons we bought them. We support their consumer business. People are worried. We actually got a lot of emails where people are like, are you going to not allow them to clone the dogs? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think so. I think so. So, I think that's one of the reasons we're using their tech for native species production. Is that anything that we can productionize in native species? Yeah, because people's moral issue with cloning the animals is interesting because we've discussed this, I think, on here as well. It doesn't come at a real ethical cost, but for some reason it does strike people. There's two common pushbacks.

1:14:39One is legitimate, which is like all the people that are in the rescue adult. It's like if you're in the adult, there's all these dogs that need a home. Go get one of those. That's one thing. That's a good criticism. I have two dogs, Barbie and Ken, before them they came out, they're much older. What do you feel like before the dolls? They're 95 years old. They're quite old dogs. They're not clone, but we have. We have super-handed their cynicism. They're both rescues and they're amazing, right? Yeah. So I'm very pro-rescue. Sure. We work with American Humane site around it. But at the same time, I can see the other argument, right? So people ask me, would you clone your dogs? And I'm like, I don't know. If my kid was like, I would just go adoption of the dog because I love to you point out. But if my kid's like, I don't know, I'm not in that position yet. Yeah. Well, the other criticism is you're playing God. So if the argument is some, first, you're required to believe. I don't want to agree with that. No, I know. I'm just saying if the prerequisite for the argument is you must first believe in God. I'm already out. But then secondly, guess what, y'all, we've already been playing God by fucking eradicating.

1:15:39You're playing God when you take cholesterol medication. Yeah. Or when you eradicate the dodo's or when you cut down the range for it. Get rid of it. Yes. Or overfish the oceans. Like we play God every day. Yeah. So why don't we play God for some good? Yeah. Yeah. Part of it is like, okay, so if your kid is like, it has to be Barbie. Are we then teaching them the right one? Exactly. I don't know. How will they process green? Like I understand our dogs are like a part of our family. And I think some people take that even further. I don't know. It's a good question. It's tricky. I have not clone my dog yet. Here's the other issue is like, just because I want to do something, I don't understand why I think that should apply to everyone. So no, I think the beauty of dogs is what you teach the kids is that they don't live that long. It's a crazy endeavor. Yeah. Come fall in love with this thing. And in nine years it'll be heartbroken. I don't want that. But that's a great experience for people to have. And then lo and behold, they get another dog and do it again. There is a beautiful life. Yeah, I don't. It is worth the pain to experience a lot.

1:16:39I do not. I do not. I do not. I do not. I do not. But they're not going to experience the pain if they just have the same dog. That's my point. Like it wouldn't be for me because we all miss Lola. If there was a dog, we would have cloned. That's right. That's right. And it teaches them it's still worth it to put yourself out there for these other dogs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I say this about my goal is we're standing outside of the de-extinction work and the technologies that can be applied to humans and some of the other stuff we talked about. We open source all of our technologies for conservation, right? So we have a foundation, we raise $100 million for our foundation, and we just say use our technologies for free for conservation, right? And we've been standing up, these like Noah's Ark 2.0 biovolts all around the world because we're eradicating species so fast as humanity, we've got to have a back of plan because conservation doesn't work at the speed of which we are eradicating these species. And so why I bought viagen was I think people should have those conversations. I told you, I don't know what I would do. And I own viagen. I don't know if I would clone my dog, but that's just me being transparent about it.

1:17:40I'm very interested because not just that cloning efficiency, but of the like 18 species that have ever been cloned like 16 of them were done by viagen, right? Black fitted ferrets, Boroski's horse, we worked with them on some of our work on the red walls. And so when you start to go talk to these governments, if you can have those capabilities and you have genetic engineering where you can engineer and loss genetic diversity, so you don't have bottleneck and you have these biovolts, that one plus one plus one isn't three. That is a key backup model for life. Now that doesn't mean we should go hunt things and kill things off, but we are in a spot where we are losing species in some of these national pride species, ecological function species, these keystone species are if they're important to indigenous people groups. We should do everything to accelerate their recovery. And the current recovery models, they're just not working. We are slowing and inevitable end. And that's why about viagen, because one of the things we've been educating this administration on is like, hey, let us go back everything up. We're not going to ask any money from this administration or taxpayers.

1:18:42We'll do it on our dime and we'll give all of that data to the world. We're not keeping any secret data. And then the next thing we're going to ask them to do is like, can we pick a couple species and can we clone them for you so that we can like build a population where they actually can survive on their own, not in a captored managed model. That's where I think that the cross functional integration of these technologies through the lens of synthetic biology gives us so much more than just a mammoth. Okay, my last question you'll, hey, you are a business at the end of the day. And you've raised, I think, $600 million in your value at $10 billion. Yes. Those are rough numbers we can agree on. What's the big revenue stream? Why is it worth $10 billion? Where is money being made? So right now we're not focused on revenue. The technologies for us are key to the revenue. And so in the short term, we've produced viable spin-out businesses. Our drug discovery platform company, form bio, it's worth over $100 million.

1:19:42Our plastic degradation companies worth over $100 million. AstroMAC, which is our computational biology, I anticipate reconstruction business. We just raised at $3.8 billion valuation, right? It's one of our spin-offs. We have two other spin-offs we haven't announced yet. That we're very excited about. But I guess my curiosity is, do you think ultimately you'll be licensing or performing procedures? I think we'll be doing four things. I think we will spin off in licensed technologies for new businesses, which we've gotten pretty good at in a very short period of time. We've only been around for four and a half years. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of insane. That's why. We're the number one genome engineering company by at least a decade in four and a half years. So I think that's quite interesting. So we've proven the license and spit out model of the technologies for new sectors. Licensing the technologies directly into human healthcare stuff is kind of another phase of it. Invasive species is a $6 trillion global economic impact. Oh, really? Yeah, it's huge. It's huge. Okay. We are the only company in the world that has invertebrate and vertebrate gene drives that can work cross-species.

1:20:42Okay, so that's a big. So government will be another vertical. I do think there will be a component, which I say all the time, around working with governments in ecotourism and carbon credit models. Like if we can restore ecosystems in the Arctic by putting me and I's back in there, we will get a new ties carbon and nature credits from that. Okay. Fucking fascinating, man. It really is. I mean, talk about being on the brink of all this. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fun. Wow. This is all the things that are exciting. This was very, very fascinating. Thanks for it. Yeah, this was great. Is it our parent expert, buddy, makes mistakes all the time? Thank God, my heart goes here. He's got a little half the facts. Is that your tear hers? Mine. You know, it's not a common pattern. Tell me. Collecting mugs. That's just me. Do you like magnets as a kid? Yeah. Well, I mean, if my mom and let me buy it, like if we're on vacation or something.

1:21:45Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I liked doing that. And key chains. Key chains as well. I love collecting. Yeah, you're a collector. I may, what do we call it, a magpie? Not a hoarder. Fuck you and thank you. What do we call it? A hoarder. I think it's called a magpie. Yeah, well, a magpie collects little trinkets. Yeah, I think I'm a magpie. Yeah. But do you know there's, it's a huge industry. I've just been educated on this. I had no idea. They're pretty. Magpie's out. Sure. Oh, my God. They're very smart, I believe. Oh, shit. Sure. Yeah, it says highly intelligent long tail birds. You got to be intelligent to want to collect stuff, I guess. Yeah. Oh, my God. Magpie's rank among the world's smartest animals. Oh, boy. Maybe you need a magpie tattoo like my crow tattoo. That would, that's actually cute. But you know, I'm not getting a tattoo. Yeah.

1:22:45Where would you get a tattoo if you were going to get one? Now, yeah, head tattoo. What if I got one? And so you never saw it because it was on my head. My hair was covering it. You, well, you'd first have to shave your head. Ouch. I'm not doing that. I would get one probably here, commonplace for the listener. This is my form. I'm not using it for the moment, but like. Right in the crookier elbow there below. Just below. Like one you're playing the game with your eyes closed and someone's running their finger up where you think it, yeah, right when you think it's there, but it's not when you say stop. But you're not there yet. It'd be there. You know what's fun about that game is you already know that you're going to say stop to early. I know. And so you do let it go further than you think and then still it's not there. What a game. What a game. What a universal game. Or like here, it would be I think on my arm. I'm not getting one though. No.

1:23:45What would be the price? Oh, God. But I could still get whatever I wanted. Or like a big dick on your dick on your neck or something. No, it's a magpie on your crookier elbow there. One million dollars. No, this is a bad game because then people would whatever I say people would get that. You won't give up for $400. Yeah, exactly. Look, I'm David Sideris' thing. Remember he's talking about COVID and people yelling at other people. And if you were just to write like, I am the sun was on my face and it made me smile today. Oh, it must be nice. I don't even have a face. Boy, it really, that pair of social thing is it is as bad as you know, and people say like it constantly bringing up this podcast or that podcast. That is me almost anything anyone says and triggers a seder story. Yes. And then they got to hear it. Well, luckily, his story is our fantastic.

1:24:47So they're good ones to bring up. I would say. That's true. Well, you just told it on an episode. So maybe you don't want to, but I was going to say, do you want to talk about your hosting? Because you did bring up that you were going to host, not host. Sorry, you were going to present at the prop master awards. Oh, yeah, I did on Saturday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can tell that. Okay. First I have to say that Jeffrey Johnson is shout out is one of the greatest human beings in all of show business of all the different crew members I've ever worked with. I just like to love him like you can't imagine. He was the prop master on parenthood for six years and chips. And then he did chips. And I think he had another job and I think he really did me a favor by doing chips. Oh, and we had so much fun. And so at any rate, they have an award show on Emmy weekend. And for themselves, which is warranted and adorable. Yeah. They get to have a glitzy night like all the other departments. Yeah. And so each year I present and we can I usually do some kind of a bit.

1:25:51And he always thinks of it. So I think last year, because you know, your prop person has a bag with all your props in it. They've got your watch. They've got, you know, all the bullshit you got to wear. And they come up to you before the scene and they put your watch on you and they hand you your ring and all this crap. Yeah. And so he had to speak and I stood next to him last year and had his prop bag. And I was constantly doing things to him and putting stuff on and blah, blah, blah. So anyways, this year his idea was that I would carry him across this stage, set him on the other side, then come back to the microphone to do my presenting of the category. Yeah. And it was last minute idea. And he said, you know, and then you come back to the mic, say, you know, prop department always carries the actors on their shoulders, thought I could return the favor. So it didn't go as planned. Right. I was like, yeah, that's no problem. I can definitely carry you across the stage. I do nothing but train. Yeah. For God knows what. This is it. Yeah. So I pick him up. I'm holding him waiting for them to go through the, uh, whatever they call that when they are saying he's a podcaster and an actor.

1:26:57Oh, they're introducing you in the introduction. Yeah. And again, I'm holding him and I'm like, skip the heck, you know, whatever. Just get to one thing. This is too many things because I'm holding him. And then I walk across the stage and then the stage is longer than I think you have. Big stage. And slash, I haven't carried a man like a baby. Uh-huh. Ever. I just assume he, yeah, I can live with. Yeah. So anyways, it's a pretty long walk across the stage. I think people get a little chuck a lot of it. Sure. They know Jeffrey's being carried like a baby. Yeah. I set him down and now I'm hyper aware of like I got to run back to the microphone because it's like they're not waiting for a while. They had to watch me carry him. So then I run back to the microphone. And then when I get to the microphone, it is starting to occur to me like I need to really kind of bend over and breathe. Like I've just done 20 squats. I'm like, I'm like, the category of, you know, and I start reading and I'm like, oh my God, I'm so out of breath. Yet I'm having to read. It's getting so bad that I can, I'm getting blasts of light in my eyesight.

1:28:00Yeah. You know, like little sparklers are going off in my Aurora. Yeah. And to the point where I have to, I have to acknowledge it. Like I can't carry on. It's like three pages this, this, this category intro. Maybe more. And so finally I go, oh, okay, gang, I'm just going to, I'm going to admit that I am, I am winded. Okay. I shouldn't be, but I, I've really lost my breath. Yeah. And so laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. And then I somehow thought that got me the breaths I needed. But really I needed to sit there and I needed, I needed to breathe for about 10 or 15 seconds of silence. I wasn't going to do that. I just acknowledged the thing and then I went back into it. And then I was proceeding through and then there was some hard names to read. Oh, really hard. Oh, boy. I feel so ashamed that I know I butchered this name. I am hopeful the person wasn't actually there. Okay. Fingersome. Because I said, I'm, I'm butchering this. I acknowledge it.

1:29:00I'm so sorry. Oh, she's like offering like, is it televised? No. Thank goodness. Although it is being recorded. So God knows where. Okay. But all to say, I really was teetering unconsciousness by the end of it. Sure. Trying to hold in tight might make my talking voice normal while hyperventilating. Yeah, that's hard. Did you have an identity crisis because you're like, and did you also think people were watching? And like, how is he having a hard time caring? He's so big. Exactly. If I were them, I'd be like, what's all this about? If you can't carry a guy across the stage and then talk. Yeah. Then like, I'm having the same feeling. That's what I'm saying. Do you have a crisis? But I do urge someone to carry 190 pound man, you know, a couple hundred. And then you know what it's like for me to try to get your body off the train tracks. Okay. It's not as easy as you think. Okay. That's super. That's the lesson I learned. Yeah. So worry. No, I had a very healthy response, which is like, that didn't go well.

1:30:04I didn't do a good job presenting. I didn't do a good job reading. I fucked up some names. Yeah. And on the ride home, which in the past, I would have really been lashing myself over. He gave yourself up. I was like, Jeff still knows I love him. Yes. And then I'm always around if he calls you showed up. And that was the goal. Yes. The goal wasn't to be spectacular. Exactly. Or to have perfect cardiovascular training. I know. I'd like to see if anyone could really do what I did and not be out of breath. I think even if you train, I think if like, who's the guy? My guitar Armstrong could probably do it. He had the best cardio probably. Right. But he might not have the strength. Oh, that's all. I need something on him. I think John Cena could do it. Well, that would be a good challenge. Okay. Yeah. I like to be a new like, you know, that old show they used to have on NBC. It was like contested the stars or whatever. And they'd have TV stars competing against athletes. Do you know that famous show?

1:31:05I know it would be like on a Saturday. This would be a good show. So you have, it's a game show. Yeah. And you have to carry someone across the stage and then you have to come back and you have to make some kind of speech. And then that's somehow evaluated. And that's how you win or lose. And it basically just be John Cena and I guess competing. Um, no, we could have, no, there's other people like, um, Alan Richardson. Oh, yeah. He would be great. I mean, for all time, say shorts and ager. He's a little old. Well, but we don't know what he's capable of. I don't like to dabble in gossip, but I will say I did see a little headline that Catherine Schwarzenegger had posted some pictures of summer. And there was a picture of Marie and him together, having a lovely time. Uh-huh. And it made me very happy because I had seen that doc of him and I was very sad. He seemed really lonely in the doc. I could, I felt the heartbreak that he had, you know, wasn't with this woman. Oh. Yeah. I think that's how much I would like to have stayed with his, that's my guess.

1:32:06I have no insight information. Yeah. But to see that they were enjoying each other's company. Yeah. I don't know, gave me a normal amount of happiness. That's good. Yeah. I think, uh, families, if they can, yeah. I mean, your mom and dad were on each other. They were spectacular at it. Yeah. Exactly. I think a lot of people strive for that if they can. It's hard. I tip my hat today, bark my stepdad. It's a good Arnold Cheap. Oh, very publicly yet a child with the housekeeper. Oh, wow. I'm really out of the loop. Who is now competing in bodybuilding competitions? The housekeeper? He does. Son, his son. Oh, the son. That was the beautiful part of the doc. He's like, this is a great embarrassment to me, but I would never deny my son. I want to be proud of the fact. This is my son. Yeah. His name is such and such. I would never hide from that as much as this is painful. I want the world to know I couldn't be more proud to have him as a son. Yeah. He's a bodybuilder. He just competed in a natural bodybuilding contest, which if you want to see the difference

1:33:09between using steroids and not look at one of these natural bodybuilding shows versus the steroid ones. It's not even the same. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. I'm glad he, that would be really horrible if he like didn't want anything to do with him. So I'm glad that like he brought this person into this world who has no choice. You know, so like, I'm very glad to hear that. It shrouded in a lot of public embarrassment. Sure. Again, that this person's born into, like, and they themselves are now a part of this narrative that they didn't choose. Yeah. So on top of it, if your parent was like, I don't want anything to do with you because you're reminding me of this, that's actually not what I want. Or I don't want to talk about it. That would be an understandable thing for him to go, I don't want to talk about this in public. So I think it is an active integrity to go like, yeah, I don't want to talk about this. But of course, I am going to talk about this because I am very proud to be his father. Yeah. I think it's nice.

1:34:10I think it's nice. Yeah, it is. It's definitely nice. A lot of people just go like, I don't want to talk about this. Yeah. Yes, they would. And I guess I'm saying like for that other person, actually for both other people involved, the mother and the son, that's like horrible. So I'm glad I'm happy to hear that. And I think the, I wonder if the kids hang out all of his children. I think so. I don't know that, but I think so. I feel like I've seen photos. So nice. Yeah. I mean, again, it's like, I love family. Like I, again, I was lucky enough to be around that family 20 years ago. Yeah. They're lovely, lovely folks. Yeah. I love Maria. Yeah. Yeah. She's radical. She's lovely and still be like, I don't know. But again, well, I guess we don't know for sure, but my hope is that they've embraced this person. I think they all have things giving.

1:35:12Perhaps. I love things giving together. Yeah, I can't put too fine a point on how much I love Maria. She's so smart and fun to talk to. Right. She great debater. She could be part of it carrying the in the competition show. Eating Maria Shriver could be a part of carrying. We don't know. You see of all of her many virtues, which there are probably too many to list, carrying a 190 pound man across the stage might not be what she can do. Okay. Do you think she could lift you off the tracks? I don't know. Okay. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how she feels about me. I don't know if the adrenaline, you know, you know, like the superpowers might not hit her. It's just a carer enough about me. Yeah. We don't know until we're in this position. None of us know. As we know, practice doesn't make perfect in this case. But I do have a hunch you are capable of more if you care about the person who walks before. Yeah. So I just don't know how I rank up 10. Yeah.

1:36:12How much I would enact her super human strain. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. I care about Jeff a ton. So I could carry him for a first. I can't make a speech afterwards. Understandable. Yeah, I think you realized that, in the past, I was. I describe I was just You noticed, I showed up there like, I almost asked if I was going to do I want to run into the apartment of my neighbor who's getting beat by this guy who's twice my size? If I think about that, no. Right. Um, but I did. Yeah. You know, um, yeah. Yeah. And I didn't know her well. I just was more like said, hi, there on the sidewalk occasionally, you know, but yeah,

1:37:14I hear a woman screaming and I'm glad I go. I go. I feel bad because I just don't want to go. You don't want to go into the apartment. Yeah. Again, it's not. I won't go, but I'll call 911. Yeah, that's breed handled the 911 one of it all all I ran up the staircase and they came tumbling down the staircase. I know, I know. I know. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare. But I'll, you know what I'll do. Uh-huh. I'll have a, I'll have a hard conversation with anyone, you know. Yeah. When those people are in jail, their handcuffs so they can't hurt me. This guy was straight out of a guy richy film. Yeah. He had a head the size of a microwave shaped thick, thick fucking cognac.

1:38:15Yeah. It looked like a rugby player. Uh, yeah. Did he go to jail? I have no idea. He, well, he was not arrested in that moment. He wasn't. No, I came, you know, we got into a wrestling match on the top of the stairwell. My elbow went through the, um, uh, the fire extinguisher, you know, it's got the glass break. So we went through that. And then now the sudden work like we're tumbling down this very tall staircase. Yeah. And she then locks dead bolts her door. Okay. So she's now good. We separate enough. He runs back up the stairs to her. He's pounding on the door, but it's now dead bolted. Yeah. I am now at the bottom of the stairs just making sure he can't get in. I'm like, I'm going to find please don't get in the chair. Yeah. So I'm going to go up and then as he starts coming down the stairwells, when he finally realizes it and I'm yelling, do the fucking cops are on their way. So I'm like, letting him go to the cops are on the way.

1:39:17He recognizes not going to get in there. And as he starts coming down the stairwells, I now, um, come down the sidewalk to my stairwell, which is the next one over. Bree standing there with the cordless phone on one nine one one. And then she takes a few steps up. I stand between her and him. I don't know what's next. And then he walks by and he does not want round two with me. And he goes, you want to understand she's a fucking cunt. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was his last words. And then he disappeared. And I never saw him again. Yeah. She did. We were I was doing laundry at one point a week later. I was coming out of the little shared laundry room and she thanked me. That's nice. Yeah. I was at first. It would be if like two days later, you saw him back in there. I mean, that's the pattern. That is. I know. Yeah. So good for her. Yeah, she did not invite him back over. Gosh.

1:40:17Yeah. I was so hard. It really is. It really is hard. I gotta tell you, that was an action-packed department building. Yeah. There was something happening. Oh, once a month, something happened there. Yeah. You know, watch the one neighbor OD right below her apartment. Yeah. Uh, yeah, it was fucking action-packed. You got out of there. Mm-hmm. Bree was there for another buyer's sale. A year and a half or so. Yeah. Yeah. That's she's a she is tough. Like she could definitely she could definitely play in the competition. She was pretty comfortable in chaos. Yeah. Yeah. But that's different. Like, yeah, I guess. But physical violence is different than like it is. Chaos. But at that point in our relationship, she had already witnessed a pretty good deal of it.

1:41:19I mean, you know, one of the, we're just like we weren't even really dating. I had a girlfriend. She had a boyfriend. In town, we went over to her house to hang with her. We all got drunk. Yeah. And this is when the roommate is I'm in a conversation with the roommate. Who's roommate? Breeze. Oh, Breeze. Uh, Carrie's visiting from Michigan. Oh, okay. You go over to Breeze house. Go over to Breeze house. She lived with like four people. Okay. One of the dudes and I are talking apparently we're in a fight, but I don't I truly don't recognize that. Tim loves that's there too. Oh. I'm sitting cross-legged on my hand sitting on my hands leaning against a dresser. In the middle of like, I think we're just having like kind of a friendly debate. Oh, boy. And he stands up and then I'm like, oh, this guy is leaving the room over this. And as he crosses me, he just starts fucking punchy me in the face. And this is when I got my nose broken. And I like, I can't use my hands to get up because I got to use my hands to cover my face.

1:42:25And then he runs out of the room and it's like someone poured a gallon of milk on it. It's the most blood I've ever seen that came out of my nose during this. Yeah. And then I get up and I run to his room. He's dead bolted the room. Then I hear his side door open. Then I hear his car drive down the driveway. Breeze pretty alarm. There's a lot of blood. Of course. Carrie's there. She says to Breeze, she goes, this is nothing. This is nothing. This is fine. Like she's like, don't leave. This is not this is standard. This is not a. And she's still, you know, she's still dated you after that for nine years. I wonder what not to do. Sorry. I just wonder. I want to know what the conversation the debate was. I want to know what led to that. Like I know because in your head, you're like, what were just, but obviously it was about his girlfriend. Okay. And yeah. Okay.

1:43:25And I told you broke every bone in his wrist. He ended up having surgery. Absolutely. And he was supposed to leave to go on tour with his band. Oh, shit. It was a big loss for everyone. And I had that commercial. Oh, yeah. He bought a lot of jobs over it. Well, I was 21. Like that story is when I was 21. I can't even like. Yeah, 21. So young. Is it a weird to think about you took such a left turn in life? Uh-huh. Like really? You're so different. Your life is so different than it was. My life is so different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if I was to say if I got my nose broken in the living room now, um, Kristen would not be

1:44:25like, uh, it's not right. This is what this is. No, but you're not getting your nose broken in the living room. That's my whole point. Like you're not doing that anymore. I'm not. I'm an old man. Yeah. And I, I wonder if it's interesting for people who are around you back then to see this, to see this version of you. I hope they are happy for you. Yeah. Well, you got also you, you, you have to, um, paint a full picture. So that's happening. Yeah. Sure. These things are happening on the weekends. Yeah. Um, I'm also doing incredible in college. Sure. I'm going through the groundlings. I'm doing well. Mm-hmm. Like I'm still the, like very ambitious, motivated, dependable person. Yeah. And then, yeah, I'm getting wild on the weekends. That's, yeah, but that's a big part of it. That's a big part of it. Like it is. It is, but I guess what I'm pointing out is I don't think anyone would be like, I'm shocked. He's made it.

1:45:25He was such a fuck off. That's what I mean. That's not what I mean. Yeah. I guess I mean like there was so much chaos in my life. Yeah. And now there's not. And partying and like being so shut, like there's just a lot. Like now your life just looks very different. You're a 51 year old man with a family. I never leave this house. Yeah. I work at the house. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very much different existence. And I, I just, I, I, I, I, that's what that wedding was so fun because I got to be my kind of wild, crazy self, but in a very safe now away. Yeah. Yeah. But I got to tap into like that energy source I used to have at my disposal all the time, which is like, yeah, let's go to that thing and let's, let's try to Mexico tonight. And let's, you know, all that stuff that I used to be, uh, game four. Yeah. I don't think too many people, I mean, I'm sure a lot of addicts have this similar story.

1:46:27But if you're not one, I don't think you have that kind of life changing. I, you know, I don't know. Maybe I'm not, maybe I'm wrong. I just feel like the, the shift is much bigger. Yeah. You know, the great thing is, is, um, we could ask Tim love, right? Because he was there the whole time and he's still here. Oh, I don't mean people wouldn't be around. Oh, no, no, I don't, I know. But what you were saying, like, I wonder what the people then think now of this domesticated life you have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, Tim would be an easy person for us to ask because he was present that night and present during a lot of the stuff or some of it. Tim was a good boy. So he wasn't present during. Right. There's a whole other versions. There is. And there's, there's levels. Because then when I was in Detroit with Aaron, then I was like, this stuff that was having an alley was like, uh, child's play. Exactly. So what? Aaron and I were seeking out at all times. Yeah.

1:47:27Funny. Yeah. You're an interesting person. I was trying to become one. Yeah. You are. I think if anyone, myself included, this is weird to say, but I remember, um, I'm not just saying that, um, I watched you on punk. And I was like, punked a so funny blah, blah, blah. That guy's crazy. Yeah. The all of them are crazy. Um, and then when I moved here and we had the same circle, but I hadn't met you yet. Yeah. And I remember some friends saying something about you. And I was like, huh. Like you were that you were in a conversation about blah, blah. And I was like, Oh, and they're like, he's really smart. Oh, well, that's nice. And I was like, really? I did. I was like, Oh, I had no idea. Sure. How could anyone have had any idea? Right. You were on punked and baby moment. And then Eddie, I've received. And then Eddie, I've received.

1:48:28But I was definitely like, oh, he is. Oh, okay. Unexpected. I was unexpected. And then I met you and I was like, he is. Yeah. No, no, no. This is all a big surprise. Oh, funny. Speaking of being smart. Let's do some facts. Okay. This is for Ben. Very interesting. Oh, it couldn't get more interesting. I can't believe this is happening. I know. Really crazy. I can't wait to have a pick me mastic on. Were you going to keep it? In my bedroom. Where? On my bed. There's going to live there. Huge tasks. huge tusks. Because even a pig me one. I think even a pig me one. Like I think the pig me massacons on the channel islands were about the size of cows. That will fit in your room. Well it would, but it'd be, it'd be make things tight for sure. I've worked with cows a lot on TV when I was on the ranch. Oh yeah. And I gotta tell you this.

1:49:28And I'm blessed with that. So we, I am blessed as mess. But I was really close on the ranch because it's a small stage and there's a cow right there in their eyeballs are so sweet. That's nice. You can like, you can look in them. Yeah. They feel like, like whales. You know, when you see a whale, you're like, yeah, there's a person in there. Oh, that's sad. Yeah, but it's, they're sweet. Because people are, I know, but like people are mean to them and kill them. Cows, I'm part of the problem here. Me too. What would you think the ethics are? If Ben could figure out how to grow a cow with no brain. Like no head. Oh, and then we eat those. Yeah, because there's like, there's not all it is. Is this meat producer? There's just some people. I bet people would be mad about it even though that would make no sense. Well, there's something about engineering. I mean, there is just something about engineering and new being. Well, aside from that, I think even the people would think it was cruel to kill something that's not even sentient. Oh, that. You know what I'm saying?

1:50:28What? You remember Coco? Well, Coco's got a big face in his mouth. Coco is not sentient. Well, it kind of, he can get around town. He's not sentient. Yeah. So will that, that cow will be able to get around? I don't know if it will. Well, yeah, it'll just be able to bring the tell to move. This is kind of a computer chip that tells all the organs to work. It'll have a chip that also makes it walk around. Probably to get access to. Build muscle and get, yeah. Yeah, get yummier. Can you, I just see in a field full of cows in no house. See, that's what hurts me. That's very scary. Yeah, it's sci-fi. It's, it's a M night shaman. And I don't want that less Craven. It's a little more M night shaman. Is it? Okay. He would definitely make a movie where there's all these cows with no heads at someone engineered. But you wouldn't see it to the last frame of the movie. No, what you see is, okay, in the last frame, you, okay, in the last frame. The last.

1:51:29Painting the picture of me. He walks into the basement. Oh, they're in the basement. Walking Phoenix. He walks into the basement. Walking Phoenix walks into Phoenix. And he sees a little like crack in the ground. And he gets his tool and he's like, oh, oh, the floor, the floor board is loose. Okay. Okay, it's a wooden floor. Yeah. Okay. And then he lifts it and he's like, oh, what's that smell? Oh, okay. Yeah. And then he sees on the back of the floor, there's blood. Okay. And then he looks and it's the heads of all the cows. They weren't engineered headless. They were real cows. They just decapitated. Yes. Okay. Yeah, that's a bummer. That's not what I want to happen. That's a sad ending. No, I want him to just be able to grow rib eyes with no suffering. Speaking of the movie I just wrote, I watched a scary movie with Adam Scott on the screen. Oh, he was in it. He's in it.

1:52:30Uh-huh. It's him, Michelle Monahan, Robert De Nier, whoever heard of him. Okay. I have. And it is good. What's it called? It's called the whisper man. It's scary. Is it on Netflix? I think it's a series or a movie. It's a film. Yeah. Okay. And it's not too long. Great. That's when you're new criteria. That's my test. Yeah. And anything about 90 gets in your trouble. You better have a great film. But it was good. I enjoyed it. Okay. So I looked at the words for grandma and grandpa and other cultures. Okay. Right. Babushka. Yeah. For Russian. Babushka and DeduSka. Oh, daddy is a DeduSka. Grandpa. Uh-huh. Grandpa. Spanish. Obuela. Boylo. Yeah. We love that. We know that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't think I knew no, no.

1:53:31German is orna. Wow. Orna is. I know. Oh, no, it's not. No, it's not. Okay. It's Oma. Oma. See, now do you see what happened? The M to me was an R and an N. That makes sense. Yeah. Because you're bad, I see. Oma and Opa. Oma, no, that's cute. Greek is Yahya. Maybe it's Yahya. Yeah, that's what Peggy calls her grandma. Yahya. Okay, because it's, but it's Y-I-A. So I do think it's Yahya, but that's interesting. Interesting spelling. And then Papu. Pupu. Papu. French. Ooh. Mimi and Pippi. No. But I mean sure. That's what it's supposed to be. That's what I was taught to call my friend, Grandma. It's a Grand Mare. Oh, I love it. That must be official. Grand Mare is Grandma and Grand Pair is Grandpa. I love it. I just want to know where Mimi and Pippi went. Irish is, ooh. My, I, Irish is hard.

1:54:34It's gay, lick or something. My mayo, meme, memo. Memo. Memo. My memo. Memo is like a southern thing sometimes. Memo. Yeah. I know a lot of friends who have memo. Memo. Yeah. It's true. Memo and Papa. Yeah. A lot of people have Papa's. My dad might go by Aashi. Oh, is that Grandpa in it? Nope. It's just since his name is a Shoke. Oh, okay. Well, we're gonna talk. It's really close to, um, not Aashi, but who is the Bogwanda? What do you become? He became. No, that he became all. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, tough titties, oh, oh, oh, yeah. Um, I think we're gonna, he's gonna try to push for that, but you know, Memphis gets to decide. Sure. Yeah. Um, that's the first born gets to decide what the grandparents are called. That's why my Papa Bob was Papa Bob because of David. My brother David. But were there any other grandkids?

1:55:35Yeah, but they all came after David and I. They did. Okay. Yeah, Jamie and Jason are like two years and four years respectively younger. Okay, God. So David was the first born grandchild. Oh, he sure was. He was the bell of the ball for five whole years. He got to be dotted on. So cool. Yeah. It sucks when the other one comes you. When Dax arrives, he's deaf and colloquy. Yeah. He grunts. Do you think that's why Delta wants to learn sign language? Because my dad was deaf. Yeah, maybe. Oh, there's, okay, there's a lot. This says in India in Hindi specifically though. So my parents don't speak that. Take it with a grain of salt. Yeah. So I don't know. But it says nani and nana. I don't know. Oh, this is funny because I always say they're close to Italians. Oh, yeah. That's my observation. Oh, well, okay. It's specific from a turnl grandma maternal grandpa to complex. No, we're smart. It's probably feeling it's the reach of the cast.

1:56:36It's been as has that too. It's part of the cast system. Oh, God. Okay. Oh, and so I healy it's BB and Bob. Oh, I love that. BB and Bob. Actually, these are clearly set up for babies to be able to say. Like you notice the pattern here. They're all like baby talk. Oh, yeah, and Hawaiian tutu. There you go. Kid baby could say that. Okay. Dr. Baylor. Yeah. Um, he held surgical privileges at Baylor Regional Medical Center in Plano, Texas, starting in 2011. Mm. Um, and then 2012 is when he was suspended and then resigned. Uh, he wreaked havoc in a short amount of time. Oh, his name is Christopher Dunnch. Yeah. First physician in United States history to be convicted and sentenced to life in prison for criminal acts and gross malpractice committed directly inside the operating room during surgery. Oh, he also looked at him. He kind of looks familiar though.

1:57:38He's a big log, right? He's a football player, but he wasn't his, oh, yeah. Yeah, he looks like a, he looks like Fred Flintstone. Oh, fuck me. Look at that photo. I mean, you shouldn't, you shouldn't ever judge a book by its cover, but I'm telling you if I shook my surgeon's hand and that's what he looked like, I'd be like, I'm going to pass. But remember, people call him Dr. Swagger. They did? I'm just really. Oh, I don't remember that detail. Because I, well, I do remember them saying at first, like he was really cool. Like everyone like thought he was cool. It was a, it turned. It's already. Okay. So I just was looking up the extinct animals because I'm just not well versed. Okay. Some of you said I'm just not convinced. Oh, my God. What a, whoa, that'd be crazy. Yeah, what a revelation. Yeah. So I'm just going to read some that we, these are kind of obvious, I guess. Well, Dodo is the Dodo, Phylis Bird, Stellar C. cow.

1:58:45He mentioned the C. cow. He's hot to bring that one back. Yeah. Okay. There's the Kwaga. It's a South African subspecies of the plain zebra hunted for meat and skin. But it, it looks like that, but that kind of looks like a regular zebra. Yeah. So I don't care about, I'm just kidding. I care. Yeah. Passinger pigeon. That's cool. Well, we lost it though, right? Yeah, but if we could bring it back. This is like an immorentorium at the Oscars for animals. Like there should be music playing and then you just read the Dodo bird. There's Shishwan pony mule. The passenger pigeon and then you're, oh, yeah, I love the passenger. The passenger pigeon was made me want to get into animals. Tasmanian tiger. I mean, I do want one of those. Actually, no, they look kind of ugly because they look kind of like coyotes.

1:59:47I saw two coyotes yesterday. Okay, Chinese paddlefish. Ew. I think the promise I just don't like animals very much. Right. That's going to pose a problem when asked to be sympathetic probably about. Well, I'm sad. I don't think animals should be extinct. Right. But you don't need to see them other than that. Yeah. Except there's a penta, or penta island tortoise, 2012 that went extinct. No, 2015. Kind of recent. Yeah, the plow, the one that's a big part of monstrous a god ding, ding, ding, is the plow something tortoise from Madagascar. And they're now extinct in the wild. They still exist, but only in captive breeding stitches. Yeah. And then of course, we got the wooly mammoth. We got the saber tooth cat. Oh, they don't want to call it a tiger anymore. I guess. It's called a smillodon. Orrokes.

2:00:48Now, this is a type of cattle. The moa, the great ock, also a flightless seabird. Okay. All right. That's it. I was just thinking about who I'd want to bring back. Mm-hmm. There's Irish elk, which was a gigantic deer from the Pleistocene. You don't want to see anything that's gigantic. Yeah. That's what I'm drawing. The megafauna. I want it. Yeah, elephant bird. That's a thousand pounds. A thousand pounds. That's a lot of fatigues. Yeah. Exactly. Home of the pygmy hippo. Woolly rhinoceros. Ooh. That sounds fun. Hold on. The caspy entiger. I want to look at this. Okay. Yeah, looks regular. You're like a six year old. You're learning about animals right now real time. You're like leaving through a National Geographic book. Oh, this reminds me. Okay. The game that I taught you guys about in Poster. Uh-huh. When we were playing, the word was clownfish. And so someone said Nemo and then whatever.

2:01:52Uh-uh. Jess said, he said circus. Okay. He said circus. Okay. And then Anthony, once we were done, Anthony was like, it's Jess. Circus. And I was like, no, it's like that makes. Clowns are at circus. Yes. It was like, that makes sense. And then Jess said, well, I don't know what this is. All right. And then Anthony was like, oh, it's definitely Jess. Like, who wouldn't know what that is? And I was like, some of us don't know animals that well. Is it he's from Sweden? No. I mean, if you're from India, but he did spend some time in Sweden. If you're from India, he was born in France and he lived in Sweden for a long time when you're learning about animals. Yeah. Okay. And if you're if you're from Sweden, you don't know clownfish. If you're from Georgia. From Georgia. India. If you're from India, you don't know sea horses. Right. And I'm cool. I'm going to make a collective list of your observations of, yeah, of the holes in animal learning, uh-huh. According to cultures.

2:02:52It'd be fascinating if you had some real data that proved that. I think it's real. Yeah. Remember I asked that other Indian man and he didn't know about the sea horses. Do you think it's a part of like, do you think it's a product of great wealth that like you have the free time. There's like less pressing issues. To the right side. Because like you just have, you know, you're in a house and you have all this free time and you have this book and all these national. Yeah. I learned all these at my papa and grandma's house because they had the whole. Right. Encyclopedia of animals for me, the national G. Graphic and I just looked at them endlessly. Yeah. Like do you think it could be a some reflection or related to wealth. Yeah. Wealth of nations. It could. Adam Smith. Like what other cultures have like aquariums in their house? Do we think that's common? I doubt in like sub-Saharan Africa. Yeah. There's a lot of aquariums. Or an Asian. Maybe because like a Chinese restaurant. Okay. Let's just slow down before we get in the trouble. In the south.

2:03:53In the south of the United States. In the Chinese restaurant. Sure. There are aquariums. Right. Anyway. Okay. Well that's. That's everything. Yeah. Oh, okay. Maybe I want to bring back the bar bar bar bar bar bar. Re-Lion. Oh, tell me about that one. A majestic North African lion subspecies at vanish from the wild in the mid 20th century. I like that it's had majestic. Yeah. What if it was called the majestic rat? Would you be interested in that? Well, I am part mouse. So I have to like I can't hate rats that much. You can't sell it your species so quickly. Exactly. Sister species. Look forward to you getting a pig me woolly mammoth or mastodon. Yeah. Yeah. I look forward for you. I wouldn't want to pick me giant sloth because then that would just be a sloth. Be a three-toed sloth, right? That's true. So we already have that that's not of interest. Okay. Actually this rhino does look cool.

2:04:54That's cute. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. It's a really big horn. It's a really big horn. Big, big, girthy horn. I mean really I would love to see like one dinosaur. Yes, of course. We all would. Okay. Alright. That's it. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you. Love you.